Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[Dory]

Actually the way Sheldon Cooper is misused as some supposed model for asexuality and autism is part of why I've grown to hate TBBT. Seriously, if one more person concludes they know something about my 2e son because of that show. Well, just sit back and watch the boxing match. It will end in a knockout. I am so over TBBTs stereotyping.

 

I have the same problem with the show. My SIL is sure she knows all about my oldest ds because of that show. It makes me seethe.

[poppy]

Actually the way Sheldon Cooper is misused as some supposed model for asexuality and autism is part of why I've grown to hate TBBT. Seriously, if one more person concludes they know something about my 2e son because of that show. Well, just sit back and watch the boxing match. It will end in a knockout. I am so over TBBTs stereotyping.

 

Agreed, I didn't say it's accurate, just that it's bringing the issue to the spotlight a bit more. It's a sometimes funny but often nasty show, and I'm not really a fan.

[Haiku]

Leelah Alcorn's mother speaks to CNN

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-transgender-teen-suicide/index.html?c=&page=1

[Χά�ων]

Leelah Alcorn's mother speaks to CNN

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-transgender-teen-suicide/index.html?c=&page=1

I am saddened that she still refers to her now deceased child as male. I think she really does not get it, even after. That makes me very very sad.

[texasmama]

I don't think emotionally she is capable of any deeper understanding this early in the grieving process. Maybe someday. Maybe not.

I agree.  In her mind, she lost her son.  I will be surprised if this changes.  I do not expect the family to ever accept that their son was a daughter. 

 

If Leelah had lived and gone on to transition to female, in time the family may have accepted this.  We will never know now, and essentially, this situation is now frozen at the point at which Leelah died.  Sadly, it is never fixable for anyone involved. 

 

I do have a great deal of compassion for this family because it is quite possible that now and only now the parents realize that their efforts to help were not helpful, but it is too late.  I have lived with the aftermath of suicide, and it is a terrible thing, even for a relative for whom you are not responsible (in my case, an uncle).  I cannot imagine living with this with your own child.

[poppy]

I wouldn't wish a child's suicide on anyone.  Anyone.  Having said that, I don't have any desire to watch what she has to say.

[Firefly]

Humanity;  you're doing it right.   I only wish Leelah had felt so supported; such a senseless death. :(

[TranquilMind]

I think allowing teens of a certain age to make more of the medical and education decisions would be very helpful to teens in the same situation as Leelah. She shouldn't need permission to go to school or see a doctor. I know this board is generally big on parental rights, but I tend to disagree, especially for older teens.

Actually, I am surprised that is the case at all, as we let teens get birth control and even abortions with abandon, and without parental consent.   But we won't give them an Advil at school without parental consent, oddly.

 

I guess there isn't more need for consent in the cases of drugs or  removing/reconfiguring body parts than there clearly is now in having abortions, so why not?  

 

I still feel for the parents, and for the poor truck driver who was used as an instrument, who gets to live with the fact that he killed a kid.    The parents had to shut down their social media because of the outpouring of hate, I read.  I'm sure all the younger siblings are being treated equally well by the public as the parents are, at this awful time.     

[Haiku]

I just realized that there is an Alcorn on the team my dd plays on Saturday. That team is from the same area as this family. I wonder whether it's the same family. I remember several families with teenagers in attendance from the last time we played them.

[TranquilMind]

Leelah Alcorn's mother speaks to CNN

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-transgender-teen-suicide/index.html?c=&page=1

How is this a story?  They go find a neighbor kid who just goes to school with him, to speculate about the neighbors he clearly doesn't know well.  Great source there.  Then they go get a man dressed as a woman (surprise!  Who saw that coming?)  who has never met this boy or any of the individuals to just comment generally on supporting people. 

 

That is really irresponsible journalism.  It would have been fine to say that this sad event occurred and that people are talking about it on social media in general, but that isn't what CNN did.    CNN has grown progressively less professional over the years, though, so I'm not that surprised. 

[TranquilMind]

Suggesting there are some types of people who do not deserve to exist is not charitable either.

Except that never happened.  Certainly not by me; I never said that types of people do not deserve to exist. 

[Ravin]

I am saddened that she still refers to her now deceased child as male. I think she really does not get it, even after. That makes me very very sad.

This is actually quite common, even for trans adults who have lived as their real gender (not the one assigned at birth) for years.

 

I wouldn't question that they loved their child--or their idea of who their child was. But they continue to deny Leelah's female identity, and that lack of respect speaks louder than words of "we love you but...." I'm not surprised that she didn't share her chosen name with them, when they were so unaccepting.

 

They also omitted mention of suicide when they announced the death. The myth of their son Josh who died in an accident while taking a walk is clearly a more comforting version of events for grieving Christian parents.

 

I feel badly for them but still see their attitude about gender identity as part of the problem.

[TranquilMind]

I wouldn't wish a child's suicide on anyone.  Anyone.  Having said that, I don't have any desire to watch what she has to say.

I do, but of course, most grieving mothers are not going to speak to the media, and the privacy should be respected.

 

That said, I'm always willing to look at both sides, not merely the one that confirms my bias. 

[Ravin]

Except that never happened. Certainly not by me; I never said that types of people do not deserve to exist.

No, you just called us delusional.

[TranquilMind]

This is actually quite common, even for trans adults who have lived as their real gender (not the one assigned at birth) for years.

 

I wouldn't question that they loved their child--or their idea of who their child was. But they continue to deny Leelah's female identity, and that lack of respect speaks louder than words of "we love you but...." I'm not surprised that she didn't share her chosen name with them, when they were so unaccepting.

 

They also omitted mention of suicide when they announced the death. The myth of their son Josh who died in an accident while taking a walk is clearly a more comforting version of events for grieving Christian parents.

 

I feel badly for them but still see their attitude about gender identity as part of the problem.

Most people omit the mention of suicide in an obituary or notice.  That's pretty typical.  I know it was true in the two cases that touched my own family.

 

The family doesn't wish to dwell on the manner of death, whether suicide, or cancer (and I get it; I HATE those obits that say, "Joe faced a valiant battle with Cancer (often capitalized, oddly) and lost" - I'd rather hear about all the great things that Joe was in life - and I've written a few obits myself). 

 

 

The family wishes to dwell on the child that they knew, even if that child was hiding a whole different life.    The latter just makes it more painful, and I'm sure they are not ready to deal with that at all yet. 

[TranquilMind]

No, you just called us delusional.

No. 

 

I called one who does not present himself honestly delusional.  My example was that I can respect, "I am a boy, but feel like a girl" but not the delusional view.    At least attempt to quote me honestly. 

[Ravin]

How is this a story? They go find a neighbor kid who just goes to school with him, to speculate about the neighbors he clearly doesn't know well. Great source there. Then they go get a man dressed as a woman (surprise! Who saw that coming?) who has never met this boy or any of the individuals to just comment generally on supporting people.

 

That is really irresponsible journalism. It would have been fine to say that this sad event occurred and that people are talking about it on social media in general, but that isn't what CNN did. CNN has grown progressively less professional over the years, though, so I'm not that surprised.

What are you talking about? The transgender individuals interviewed were Shane Morgan and Aidan Key. Both, based on the article, are male, as in female-to-male transgender. Neither is a " man in a dress" and neither were pictured in the article. The only pictures were tribute art for Leelah.

[TranquilMind]

Most trans people, especially MTF's who transitioned young (and FTM's) are not easy to pick out.

Ok, if you say so.

Try me, anytime.  I'm extremely observant.  I can also guess age and weight within a very narrow range, which I guess goes along with this weird "talent".  I've joked that I should get a job at the State Fair, guessing these. 

 

But whatever.  Believe what you want. 

[TranquilMind]

What are you talking about? The transgender individuals interviewed were Shane Morgan and Aidan Key. Both, based on the article, are male, as in female-to-male. Neither is a " man in a dress" and neither were pictured in the article. The only pictures were tribute art for Leelah.

I clicked on the CNN video.  What are you talking about?  Only one man with Crossport or something like that, and a teen boy who was just a neighbor of the Alcorn family. 

[Ravin]

Ok, if you say so.

Try me, anytime. I'm extremely observant. I can also guess age and weight within a very narrow range, which I guess goes along with this weird "talent". I've joked that I should get a job at the State Fair, guessing these.

 

But whatever. Believe what you want.

See the pictures in my next reply to you after the one you quoted with this reply.

[TranquilMind]

If external genitalia was the be all end all (as TM insists) the several international cases of controversy regarding gender and sport wouldn't exist. Castor Semenya etc.

Semenya is/was a hermaphrodite.  One of the extremely RARE examples of physical oddities at birth.    This is not the usual case at all where a male is claiming to be female, but is completely male, or the reverse.  I noted this rare case as an exclusion up front.

[TranquilMind]

See the pictures in my next reply to you after the one you quoted with this reply.

What number is the post?  This thread has grown large.  (And photos aren't real life - I can always tell in real life but photos can be manipulated). 

[Ravin]

What number is the post? This thread has grown large. (And photos aren't real life - I can always tell in real life but photos can be manipulated).

I can't see the numbers, I'm on a phone.

[Scrub Jay]

See the pictures in my next reply to you after the one you quoted with this reply.

 

Exactly.  I don't believe her claim in the slightest.

 

[TranquilMind]

You basically have denied the existence of most actual trans people, including me.

Who has "denied your existence"?  You are posting here, so though I can't see you, I'm fairly certain that you do indeed exist.  No one is denying your existence. 

[Daria]

What number is the post?  This thread has grown large.  (And photos aren't real life - I can always tell in real life but photos can be manipulated). 

 

How on Earth can you claim that you always know?  Unless you're checking under the clothing of everyone you see, how can you know what's there.  You can always tell on the people where you can tell.  Or at least you think you can but maybe you're wrong about some of them too.

[Ravin]

Who has "denied your existence"? You are posting here, so though I can't see you, I'm fairly certain that you do indeed exist. No one is denying your existence.

No, you just think I'm delusional because you don't think most transgender people are "really" what we say we are.

[*Lulu*]

These aren't the most verbally informative articles but the pictures are the point:

 

http://www.oddee.com/item_98038.aspx

 

http://mdaily.bhaskar.com/news/World/4572/WOR-models-who-earn-name-and-fame-despite-being-transgender-4840358-PHO.html

Here is the post Ravin referenced.

[TranquilMind]

Yes. Though one need not be religious to reject GLBT identities and dignity of GLBT people. Just look at Russia as an example.

You are making the common mistake that to reject a concept (homosexuality, variant sexuality) is the same as rejecting a person.  Nothing could be farther from the truth. 

[TranquilMind]

No, you just think I'm delusional because you don't think most transgender people are "really" what we say we are.

Make up your mind. Your accusations keep changing. 

 

You are whatever you were born.  You might be living as someone else now.  It happens. 

[Ravin]

How on Earth can you claim that you always know? Unless you're checking under the clothing of everyone you see, how can you know what's there. You can always tell on the people where you can tell. Or at least you think you can but maybe you're wrong about some of them too.

 

For that matter, for post-genital reassignment surgery transsexuals, looking under the clothes wouldn't help, either.

[Scrub Jay]

You are making the common mistake that to reject a concept (homosexuality, variant sexuality) is the same as rejecting a person.  Nothing could be farther from the truth. 

 

Being a homosexual or identifying as transgender is not a "concept."

 

[TranquilMind]

Here is the post Ravin referenced.

What a bunch of blather there.  So surprised that there are naked photos and that some are in the porn industry!  (not really).

 

Yes, these photos of these drug-laden individuals (steroids mostly, from what I can tell) certainly do obscure the gender in photos, but I bet I could tell in person upon a good opportunity to look.  Not that it really matters.     Most of them, even in photos, are pretty obvious.

I must admit that the Ian Harvie photo itself gives very few clues, but I bet in person it is easier to tell.

 

Several are completely obvious because of the tiny hands or the scars. 

Chaz doesn't look happy to me, and won't be around long if those 150 extra pounds stick around, sadly.   

[hornblower]

Sigh.

This thread is depressing. And so are the poll results.  (though I don't know ... I'm guessing it's better than it would have been even 5 yrs ago...)

[Ravin]

You are making the common mistake that to reject a concept (homosexuality, variant sexuality) is the same as rejecting a person. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

And if I tell you I hate or find inherently wrong and unethical (maybe even evil) some fundamental part of your identity (such as your religion, which is clearly very important to you), you would not feel the least bit personally rejected ore find me at all hypocritical I'd iI then said I respect you as a human being anyway?

 

Please note that I don't hate Christian/Christianity in general or you personally. It was a hypothetical.

[*Lulu*]

Being a homosexual or identifying as transgender is not a "concept."

 

You know what concepts I wish people would give more attention to?

 

Kindness, compassion, and equality.

 

If we spent more time on these maybe we would care less what sexual organs the people around us have.

[Farrar]

Who goes around trying to figure out if people weren't born the gender they're dressed as on the street anyway? I can only assume that the majority of people anyone would guess would just be wrong. It's so insulting to everyone who doesn't fulfill an extreme stereotype of physical masculinity or femininity.

[TranquilMind]

Being a homosexual or identifying as transgender is not a "concept."

 

Homosexuality is a concept and a behavior, not a person. 

[Ravin]

What a bunch of blather there. So surprised that there are naked photos and that some are in the porn industry! (not really).

Yes, these photos of these drug-laden individuals (steroids mostly, from what I can tell) certainly do obscure the gender in photos, but I bet I could tell in person upon a good opportunity to look. Not that it really matters.

The only "drugs" these people have used are hormone replacement therapy. Not "steroids" just normal levels for their gender. And exactly one person is in the porn industry, Buck Angel.

[TranquilMind]

You know what concepts I wish people would give more attention to?

 

Kindness, compassion, and equality.

 

If we spent more time on these maybe we would care less what sexual organs the people around us have.

Oh, you mean like the kindness, compassion, and equality(for their disparate viewpoint) shown the Alcorn family, who just lost a child? 

 

 

[TranquilMind]

The only "drugs" these people have used are hormone replacement therapy. Not "steroids" just normal levels for their gender. And exactly one person is in the porn industry, Buck Angel.

The sports people are using/have used steroids.  A few even discuss it. 

[Ravin]

Homosexuality is a concept and a behavior, not a person.

We aren't talking about homosexuality.

[TranquilMind]

How on Earth can you claim that you always know?  Unless you're checking under the clothing of everyone you see, how can you know what's there.  You can always tell on the people where you can tell.  Or at least you think you can but maybe you're wrong about some of them too.

Ok.  Can only go on past experience.

[hornblower]

Homosexuality is a concept and a behavior, not a person. 

 

does that mean there are no Christian people either? Just a concept and a behavior?

[Scrub Jay]

Homosexuality is a concept and a behavior, not a person. 

 

It is none of those.  It is a biological trait.

 

You don't choose to be gay, bi or straight.  And you don't choose your gender (it's pretty clear you don't understand the difference between sex and gender).

 

You do choose your religion, your biases and your bigotry. 

 

[Scrub Jay]

Ok.  Can only go on past experience.

 

Did you give these people a questionnaire to fill out?  Did you look under their skirts or yank down their pants?

 

I'm just curious to know how you can claim you have always known without actually asking every single person you have come in contact with or assaulting them in some way.

 

[*Lulu*]

What a bunch of blather there. So surprised that there are naked photos and that some are in the porn industry! (not really).

Yes, these photos of these drug-laden individuals (steroids mostly, from what I can tell) certainly do obscure the gender in photos, but I bet I could tell in person upon a good opportunity to look. Not that it really matters.

Wait a hot damn minute.

 

Ravin clearly spells out in the post that the writing is garbage and the reason he is sharing is the pictures. But you come back with a superior, dismissive, condescending post attacking first the very thing Ravin said was NOT the point of his post?

 

I have finially figured out why your posts make me want to find the nearest brick wall and beat my head against it.

 

You have the same marytr complex as my bat shit crazy grandmother. She says random rude things...knowing full well they are inappropriate, then acts offended that anyone could think SHE of the perfect sweetness would ever intend to be a royal b..............

 

If you say rude things, don't be surprised when people point it out.

[Ravin]

Make up your mind. Your accusations keep changing.

 

You are whatever you were born. You might be living as someone else now. It happens.

I've been the same person the whole time. I did spend a long time trying to be what was expected of me and not doing a good job of it.

[Farrar]

Sigh.

 

This thread is depressing. And so are the poll results.  (though I don't know ... I'm guessing it's better than it would have been even 5 yrs ago...)

 

Oh, I don't know. I didn't answer the poll because the phrasing was so weird. And with the limited scope that the OP tried to assign it in the beginning as being for a preschool aged child only or something... it's a skewed poll even by informal forum polling standards, I think.

 

As for the thread... there are a few voices who are trying to deny that John Jolie-Pitt could be trans or that Leelah Alcorn was, but there have been a lot of really positive voices too. I really appreciate hearing from Ravin and Lucy Stoner from their own personal and personal family experiences.

 

I think the whole country has shifted on trans issues radically in the last ten years. I have to admit... I grew up in an extremely, for the time period, gay-friendly household, in a church that was one of the first in the state to hold gay wedding ceremonies, with many out-gay friends in high school... BUT... the maid of honor at my wedding was trans and I found it very hard to be accepting and understanding back then. I knew many LGBQ people... but the T (and the various others) weren't in the mix two decades ago as much. It was really new and strange to me. It was complicated by him making a lot of dangerous life choices at the same time as he was beginning to come out as trans, and I never did or said anything that was directly unsupportive and I did do a few things that were supportive (the maid of honor gift was a book called, IIRC "Your Gender Workbook"), but nor was I this dear friend's champion at all. And I feel sad that we became estranged. I definitely feel like it was on me to a great extent. 

 

Anyway, it's just to say... I think things are changing and I hope the world is catching up. I hope I have.

[Ravin]

Make up your mind. Your accusations keep changing.

 

You are whatever you were born. You might be living as someone else now. It happens.

More than one person had been throwing your previous statements back at you, you do realize? Rosie and I are not the same person.