How do college admissions committees perceive community college coursework?

[stupidusername]

for example, if a homeschooled high school student receives an A in a community college Biology class, is that considered roughly equivalent to a 5 on an AP Biology test?

 

I'm not asking about which is more likely to result in credit. I'm asking which is more impressive to an admissions committee at a highly selective university like MIT or Harvard.

 

[regentrude]

To a highly selective school? My guess would be the AP, since it is standardized. Community college courses vary greatly, and the admissions people have no way of evaluating the quality of your CC.

OTOH, CC courses do demonstrate that a student has been able to work in a traditional classroom, another thing that might be of value for a homeschooled applicant.

 

But I also do not think that such schools consider either "impressive" at all, but rather standard for their applicants.

[creekland]

But I also do not think that such schools consider either "impressive" at all, but rather standard for their applicants.

 

Absolutely.  We did a mix of AP and DE to show both sides for my guy.  AP was much more rigorous compared to our cc.

 

In an admissions session we attended (group session), one student asked if it was better to get a B in an AP class or an A in an Honors class.  The admissions rep didn't miss a beat in responding that they want to see the A in the AP class (presumably with a matching test score).  I really think those are the basic high school standards for highly selective schools.

 

[Teachin'Mine]

I would say that yes an A does roughly translate to a 5 on the AP test, assuming a good community college. 

 

This may help answer your question.  http://math.mit.edu/academics/undergrad/first/calculus

 

In this link, using Calculus I and II as an example, a student can skip Calculus I by getting a 4 or 5 on the AP or by passing an advanced standing test, or by transfer credit (they accept community college course work as well as four year course work).  However to skip Calculus II, the student needs to pass the advanced standing test or have transfer credit.  The AP test alone isn't sufficient, even BC.

 

Harvard handles it differently as college coursework done in high school (no matter whether a community college or a four year) will count alone for advanced standing.  Regarding Calculus, a 5 on the AP Calculus AB gives 1/2 credit and the BC earns a full credit of Calculus I.

 

Here's their link.   http://oue.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?pageid=icb.page498253&pageContentId=icb.pagecontent1065010&view=view.do&viewParam_name=asgeninfo.html

 

[kiana]

For the record, MIT's 18.01 covers what is normally covered in two semesters elsewhere, that is, single-variable differential and integral calculus. Their 18.02 course covers what is covered in calculus 3/multivariable calculus. That is why Calc BC won't give you credit -- calc BC is two regular semesters, not two MIT semesters.

[plansrme]

Even at U.Ga., which is a far cry from MIT, the AP exam is preferred to CC.  My observation is that AP coursework is far more difficult than the supposedly-equivalent CC.  I am sure there are exceptions, but the CCs (and most of the four-year colleges) in the Atlanta area aren't them.

[Lori D.]

for example, if a homeschooled high school student receives an A in a community college Biology class, is that considered roughly equivalent to a 5 on an AP Biology test?

 

I'm not asking about which is more likely to result in credit. I'm asking which is more impressive to an admissions committee at a highly selective university like MIT or Harvard.

 

Since highly selective schools do not accept credits from other schools, whether community college OR another university, so I would guess high AP test scores would count more towards admission than dual enrollment credits. (If the DE is from a well-respected university, that might be considered to be more impressive.)

 

I also understand that several high AP scores (on 3 to 5 tests) in several different subject areas (math, science, foreign language, English), and the more difficult AP tests rather than the "lighter" tests are also important for impressing the admissions office.

[bettyandbob]

But I also do not think that such schools consider either "impressive" at all, but rather standard for their applicants.

 

Definitely expected.

 

Even the competitive state universities dd is looking at simply expect a transcript will include dual enrollment through community college and/or AP/IB classes. The expectation we are hearing seems to be at least 5 DE or AP/IB classes. So, that would be a minimum to show rigor in course selection. This would need to be backed up by a very strong GPA.

 

Consider your community college. Ours has had a very good reputation for a long time. It had a strong reputation when I was in high school in the late 70s early 80s. The cc has agreements for transfer to state universities, but also to a number of private universities (some nationally known) in our region, not just our state.

[Teachin'Mine]

Thank you Kiana that does explain it.  In re-reading the thread, I realized I answered the question which was specifically not asked.  As for how the colleges look at any transcript, it will depend on the rigour of the course work and course load whether it's APs or community college courses.  All those in admissions dd or I spoke with were very impressed with her cc transcript.

[Muttichen]

I have had children accepted at Harvard and MIT, and we did both.  We used CC classes to show they had classroom experience and for recommendations.  My dc took AP exams even for classes they had at the CC to show they had mastered the material.  Our CC is not great -- you can easily get an A there and do very poorly on an AP.

 

My kids didn't get any credit for their APs or CC classes at Harvard or Princeton, but they were able to place into more advanced classes.  The only way you can get AP credit at these schools is if you apply for advanced standing, but doing so rules out other opportunities, so my kids chose not to.  

[Ann.without.an.e]

I spoke with two different contacts at colleges about this just to get their thoughts.  One (Davidson) said they like to see a mix, but Duke said they prefer AP hands down because it is standardized.  I guess it really depends on the school?  I'm not sure you can go wrong with a mix?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

For our situation CC has been a good choice because it gave me someone who could really push my son beyond where my guidance or self study could take him. It gave him experience with both a classroom setting and using the online course supplement for all of the homework and quizzes. It has forced him to keep with the class pace.

 

So it wasn't a question of cc vs ap but of cc vs self study that was floundering.

 

He was already doing several online classes and I felt he was reaching the limit of what he could manage online. I like that he has a three times a week obligation. I also wanted to make sure there was someone who could write a letter of recommendation.

 

I know cc's come in different qualities. This one seems to do a lot more remedial math than college level. But that's where the students place. Yet for this particular course it was a better fit than an online option.

[dhudson]

I was told by Admissions at selective and highly selective schools that they preferred AP's over CC. Many students in our area do CC so I was glad I asked as it allowed us to structure my ds' Jr./Sr. years differently.

[kiana]

I don't think you can go wrong with a mix of both.

 

Good scores on AP's AND good grades in dual enrollment classes show that your child can handle themselves in a college classroom AND that they can do well on a nationally standardized exam/course.

[8filltheheart]

I think the answer is "it depends."   Our ds was told by a couple of universities that his credits would transfer b/c he dual enrolled at regional universities and not CCs.  They said they were reluctant to accept CC credit.  (These were all OOS universities.  Most instate publics have reciprocity agreements where many credits have to be accepted with some caveats applied.)

[katilac]

Since highly selective schools do not accept credits from other schools, whether community college OR another university, so I would guess high AP test scores would count more towards admission than dual enrollment credits. (If the DE is from a well-respected university, that might be considered to be more impressive.)

 

 

 

To clarify a bit, some selective schools do accept credit from other schools. I don't know exactly where the line falls between selective and highly selective, but offhand I know that Tulane (ranked 54)  and Emory ranked 21), both with an acceptance rate of about 26%,  are both open to accepting some DE credit. I know there are some others. 

 

Just wanted to throw that out there so people know it doesn't mean 'no really good schools accept outside credits.' 

[8filltheheart]

To clarify a bit, some selective schools do accept credit from other schools. I don't know exactly where the line falls between selective and highly selective, but offhand I know that Tulane (ranked 54) and Emory ranked 21), both with an acceptance rate of about 26%, are both open to accepting some DE credit. I know there are some others.

 

Just wanted to throw that out there so people know it doesn't mean 'no really good schools accept outside credits.'

GA Tech was willing to accept all of our ds's DE credit from regional universities as in major credit hrs (which says a lot b/c it was all math and physics.)

[plansrme]

Keeping in mind, as always, that there is a difference between "what will get you in" and "what will get you credit."  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Keeping in mind, as always, that there is a difference between "what will get you in" and "what will get you credit."

Absolutely. And also what are the real options you are choosing between? There are subjects that don't have AP courses. And sometimes there just isn't a good AP that fits the needs of the student.

 

Time zones alone can cause problems with online classes (an 11:30 east coast class starts at 06:30 in Hawaii).

 

Interest level locally can be low. I taught a mixed regular and AP American Government class in coop and only had five kids total. Only one kid other than my two did the AP work. (All got 4s on the exam. )

 

IOW there might be an ideal transcript that looks like a high quality PS course of study. But that isn't always what we're choosing between.

[plansrme]

Absolutely. And also what are the real options you are choosing between? There are subjects that don't have AP courses. And sometimes there just isn't a good AP that fits the needs of the student.

 

Time zones alone can cause problems with online classes (an 11:30 east coast class starts at 06:30 in Hawaii).

 

Interest level locally can be low. I taught a mixed regular and AP American Government class in coop and only had five kids total. Only one kid other than my two did the AP work. (All got 4s on the exam. )

 

IOW there might be an ideal transcript that looks like a high quality PS course of study. But that isn't always what we're choosing between.

 

And, unfortunately, if this is the route one takes, the best of students simply may not get into a highly-selective college.  I well remember, many years ago, an admissions rep from Vanderbilt (which wasn't even THAT selective at the time) talking about an application from a student from some rural Tennessee high school.  She had topped out everything that was available to her at Podunk High; she was valedictorian of her class; she was Miss Everything at her school.  But she didn't get into Vandy in the early 90s, and his point was that it wasn't  enough to be a big fish in a small pond.  They wanted big fish from big ponds.  He was telling this many years before I even had kids, so who knows why it has stuck with me, but I imagine that what he said is even more true now.  The small private high school that offers a couple of APs and nothing higher than Calculus I?  Their student body president and prom king just may not have a real shot at the MITs of the world unless he has some serious extracurricular hook.  My middle daughter attends a school like this.  It is a pretty good fit for her, but I would be shocked if even their valedictorian is a viable candidate for admission to a highly-selective school.

 

I am not saying that this is right or fair, and I am not saying that it isn't.  But I do think it is accurate.  

[8filltheheart]

But as homeschoolers we don't have to have cookie cutter transcripts. I have reached the point that fueling my kids interests is far more important for our family than trying to impress some unknown admission officer. Want them for who they are. I'm not grooming them for what someone might or might not ultimately value.

[Michelle_NC]

I agree 8FillTheHeart -  there's such a fine line between getting them positioned for the next step and teaching to the test (in this case college admissions).  I can run myself mentally ragged pondering the "what-ifs."  We're not doing any AP classes, but I think dd is in good shape without them and will have a nice range of universities to choose from when the time comes.

 

If she had her sights set one Harvard, however ... we'd have to figure out a way to get them in.

 

[Michelle_NC]

On a related question ... how do SAT subject tests compare to AP as far as college admissions?

[plansrme]

But as homeschoolers we don't have to have cookie cutter transcripts. I have reached the point that fueling my kids interests is far more important for our family than trying to impress some unknown admission officer. Want them for who they are. I'm not grooming them for what someone might or might not ultimately value.

 

I do not disagree with this at all.  But the original question was APs versus CCs for admission to a highly-selective college like MIT or Harvard, not whether that is a goal one should pursue.

 

Last year, I had to attend a meeting held by the GC for my daughter's (now former) STEM magnet program.  This program regularly has kids admitted to the Ivies, Stanford, MIT, CalTech (though they mostly turn them down to go to Georgia Tech), and the GC was going on and on and on about the importance of her GC letter.  She has the kids who need the letter send her their resumes, and she writes the letter based on that.  She showed us the resume of a supposedly-typical applicant and raved about what a competitive applicant she was going to be.  It looked to me, however, like it would produce the MOST BORING APPLICATION EVER.  This child was in 97 clubs, on 14 committees and sang in 24 years of chorus (possibly, I exaggerate).  The GC thought she looked awesome on paper.  I thought she looked like someone who had no life outside of school.  Maybe that really is what selective colleges want, but yawn!  Nothing on that resume  made me think this girl was anything but a super-involved student, which I  expect are in limitless supply.  If I were on the admissions committee at Harvard, I would not be looking for that.  Which is why I am probably neither a GC nor in admissions at Harvard.  :)  I suspect that the myth of the super-involved student's being what colleges want is perpetuated by high schools.  From personal experience, I do think administrators resent it when their top students do not "invest in the life of the school," as they put it.

 

But anyway, that's probably not relevant to anyone else on here, so I'll shut up now.

[Michelle_NC]

I just read through the Harvard admissions page and came across this (check out the two articles linked at the bottom - very enlightening!)

 

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/application-process/what-we-look

 

Loved this commentary:

 

Lisa September 11, 2009 Â· 9:15 am

Having attended both a top state school and an Ivy, I can tell you that there most certainly is a difference between the two. I don’t think that most of the people who have posted comments have a grasp of the difference between kids who go to the top schools, like Harvard, and everyone else. This isn’t to say that these kids are better or worth more, but they are often much more gifted than your average ‘good student’. Harvard’s job isn’t to be the great equalizer; that’s what state schools are for. Harvard is out to cultivate true greatness by bringing together a cross section of the most brilliant young minds. And they happen to have a broader definition of brilliant than most of you who adhere to the SAT/grades racket; which is what makes them brilliant and leaves most of you outside it’s gates leaving messages such as these.

 

Many of the kids of parents who have been posting have probably been (or will be) hampered by the mindsets displayed here. This overemphasis on Harvard for 6 year olds will no doubt produce the kind of kid who doesn’t have true pleasures at which to excel, but who will instead spend the next dozen years cultivating some type of persona his/her parent thinks will win over the adcom. And for those who think that affirmative action is the reason their (white/male) kid didn’t get in or won’t, kids of parents who think like this are even less likely to get in. If Harvard accepted only the top students by virtue of grades and SATs, the campus would be swarming with Asians, not whites. Just look at Berkeley after the Baake case.

 

[stupidusername]

I have had children accepted at Harvard and MIT, and we did both.  We used CC classes to show they had classroom experience and for recommendations.  My dc took AP exams even for classes they had at the CC to show they had mastered the material.  Our CC is not great -- you can easily get an A there and do very poorly on an AP.

 

 

This is an interesting idea. I wonder how hard it would be to  take AP exams for CC classes.

[Muttichen]

This is an interesting idea. I wonder how hard it would be to  take AP exams for CC classes.

It really depends on the class.  My kids just did this for science.  At our CC, biology and chemistry are big classes for students going into health-related fields.  The teachers rarely get through all of the material on the syllabus and don't go into nearly the dept that the AP goes into.  So for these classes, my kids had a lot of work to do to learn the extra material that would be on the exam.  Calculus-based Physics is a much better class.  It is a smaller class, and Calc 2 is a prereq, so all the students are pretty strong.  The prof usually covers everything pretty well, so my kids just needed some test prep to be ready for the AP.