Jill Duggar Dillard is pregnant.

[Guest]

Several of us on here have experience with ATI. Your experience is different from others. I have a family member very deep into it. Her kids really don't have a choice in everyday life choices. They have been told if they leave, they are dead to them. So we are not being insulting. We have different experiences with ATI. I am glad your family left it but not all do.

 

This applies to many different religions and cultures all over the world.  I know someone who was disowned for marrying someone outside of their race at a young age (18) instead of going to medical school like the parents wanted.  His parents had so much control over him he left his pregnant wife and moved back with his parents because his mom cried and begged him to.

 

ETA:  Just wanted to add that my point is that there are nutty families everywhere, but you don't even know the Duggar kids don't agree with what they have been taught. People are just ASSUMING.  

[BlsdMama]

Well, she's a Duggar, and if having lots of babies is as much of a priority for her as it has been for her mom, I can understand why she took the test.

.

Can I respond to this? It's not really to Catwoman per se, ;) but this belief about big families.

 

Why do people believe the goal that many children is a priority?

 

Never intended to have twelve children.

Never thought of it as a mark of "godliness."

Never considered it some kind of status symbol..... As a matter of fact, it's the dead off-site from ninety nine percent of the world.... You're considered half brain dead, incapable of self control apparently according to all the wise cracks and rude comments.

She didn't make having children a priority.

She made what she feels, is compelled, out under personal conviction, to obey God and not preventt life as the result of normal marital union. If others are under no such conviction, that's a personal decision, but many children doesn't mean they chased after a large number. Neither does it mean the daughter are as well.

 

It's odd to think how far we've come in the Christian community since the invent of the Pill.

 

My maternal grandmother had eleven, my other grandmother had twelve. My husband's grandmothers had twelve and six. They were large families, but fairly normal... just the normal course of families, couple who choose not to use birth control. It's amazing to me how one couples choice to USE birth control is acceptable and normal but another's choice NOT to is condemned.

 

But then again it SHOCKS me that I have to defend my choice when I go for groceries, to a doctor appointment, to Wal- Mart. Or that random strangers comment on my sex life. Really? I'm not that altogether curious about their sex life. I was floored this became five pages. Once upon a time young newly married couples had no problem figuring out sex, and date I say ENJOYING it, lol, all in one night.... But like an adventure I suppose.

;)

[Guest]

Or it could just be for accountability, too. My husband has all my passwords and I have his. Our children won't be allowed unlimited Internet access under our roof. These are parenting and relationship choices we make for very good reasons, and believe it or not we're totally comfortable with it.

 

Parents having guidelines of conduct or attire for children might be crazy. Ooooor it might just be that family's culture. My family was pretty darn worldly compared to many Christians and yet we weren't allowed unlimited clothing, media, or activity choices even as adults under their roof. Because it's THEIR roof and their rules.

 

And they never had to go to ATI seminars or read any literature to think that perhaps giving young men and women unlimited access to vice and potentially sexual situations was a bad idea.

 

I get that you had a bad experience and anything ever associated with the things you detest MUST to be related. But maybe it's not cult brainwashing, but an eyes wide open choice the family makes for themselves that the children assimilate because they agree in principle and action with how their parents raised them. And that given the choice, they still wouldn't depart from it.

 

Believe it or not, clear thinking individuals can and do choose to live in strict self discipline and under biblical principles. Some of us really like it and believe it to be right for us, even having tasted fully of the 'other side' of things.

 

I don't know how else to say it - choosing these things for our families and ourselves doesn't mean there is a paternalistic psycho running our lives or epic emotional abuse. Your posts in this area veer pretty strongly into this insinuation and honestly it's projecting to keep assuming that these adult children must be damaged goods unable to make cogent, free will choices on these issues just because their parents raised them a particular way.

 

ETA - and in case this somehow gets lost, I am not attacking you, Quill. I know you are very sensitive on this subject. But I do think some of your posts make an awful lot of assumptions about people you don't know, and paint with an overly broad brush.

 

Exactly.  I don't know why the Duggars are picked on so much.  You could call any belief system a cult if you wanted to.  Even people who don't have a religion, or don't believe in God, are teaching their kids their beliefs.  Everyone is assuming the kids don't have choices, and blaming it on their belief system, but I don't find that to be the case.  There are people in every religion and culture that don't allow their kids choices, and those that do. I don't feel like the Duggar children aren't allowed to choose for themselves.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I've been hoping someone who has personal experience would get on here and say something!   :)  It's so insulting to sum up a whole group of people based on something they know nothing about.  People are just assuming things, as they don't even KNOW the Duggars!

Just FYI, some people here do know the Duggar family. Some of us have close acquaintances or even relatives who vacation with the Duggars. Some of us know people who attend the same seminars, camps, formal events, and cadet programs with the Duggars and their friends. The ATI world is big but it's not so big that you should assume no homeschoolers here have ever been in or near that world!

 

And many here who don't personally know the Duggars, even by a few degrees of separation, DO know about Gothardism and the ATI paradigm, firsthand. It's been in our families, our churches, our homeschool support groups, and our state homeschool associations. It IS entirely a homeschool phenomenon, so naturally, on a board of 25,000 homeschoolers, some of us DO know.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Just FYI, some people here do know the Duggar family. Some of us have close acquaintances or even relatives who vacation with the Duggars. Some of us know people who attend the same seminars, camps, formal events, and cadet programs with the Duggars and their friends. The ATI world is big but it's not so big that you should assume no homeschoolers here have ever been in or near that world!

 

And many here who don't personally know the Duggars, even by a few degrees of separation, DO know about Gothardism and the ATI paradigm, firsthand. It's been in our families, our churches, our homeschool support groups, and our state homeschool associations. It IS entirely a homeschool phenomenon, so naturally, on a board of 25,000 homeschoolers, some of us DO know.

 

 

 

 

 

I just hear an awful lot of assuming when it comes to the Duggars, and I don't think it's okay.  The people on here saying the Duggar children have no choices are not speaking from personal knowledge of the Duggars.  I think those who actually KNOW them aren't the ones putting them down.

[Joanne]

Exactly. I don't know why the Duggars are picked on so much. You could call any belief system a cult if you wanted to. Even people who don't have a religion, or don't believe in God, are teaching their kids their beliefs. Everyone is assuming the kids don't have choices, and blaming it on their belief system, but I don't find that to be the case. There are people in every religion and culture that don't allow their kids choices, and those that do. I don't feel like the Duggar children aren't allowed to choose for themselves.

The logic behind recent posts in this thread is convoluted. The Duggars get talked about because they make their money by being reality celebrities. They are reality celebrities because their lifestyle is counter cultural.

 

And, no, the term cult can't be accurately used to describe just any group or religion.

 

And the Duggars don't simply represent "big families" but a culture and theology that is known. Those of us commenting on it are informed by various levels of experience and knowledge regarding Gothardism. There are known and published realities that present another, dark and alarming side to Gothard theology and culture. A board concerned with quality education of children and the families they come from are naturally going to discuss these topics.

 

You can Duggar defend but you can't expect other people to refrain from comment, judgment and speculation. The Duggar's role depends upon these discussions.

[Guest]

The logic behind recent posts in this thread is convoluted. The Duggars get talked about because they make their money by being reality celebrities. They are reality celebrities because their lifestyle is counter cultural.

 

And, no, the term cult can't be accurately used to describe just any group or religion.

 

And the Duggars don't simply represent "big families" but a culture and theology that is known. Those of us commenting on it are informed by various levels of experience and knowledge regarding Gothardism. There are known and published realities that present another, dark and alarming side to Gothard theology and culture. A board concerned with quality education of children and the families they come from are naturally going to discuss these topics.

 

You can Duggar defend but you can't expect other people to refrain from comment, judgment and speculation. The Duggar's role depends upon these discussions.

 

 

People throw around the term, "cult", very carelessly.  No, it doesn't mean it is accurate.

 

I understand that people are against Gothardism... I probably am against at least some of it (if, in fact, it does teach people to spank babies with rulers and other nonsense).  However, I don't believe the Duggars are being fairly spoken about.  Everyone is assuming these children don't have a choice, but that is all assumption.  That is what I have a problem with.  People chose their religion.  It's unfair to say the children are forced just because they share the same beliefs as their parents.

[Joanne]

People throw around the term, "cult", very carelessly. No, it doesn't mean it is accurate.

 

I understand that people are against Gothardism... I probably am against at least some of it (if, in fact, it does teach people to spank babies with rulers and other nonsense). However, I don't believe the Duggars are being fairly spoken about. Everyone is assuming these children don't have a choice, but that is all assumption. That is what I have a problem with. People chose their religion. It's unfair to say the children are forced just because they share the same beliefs as their parents.

We have a different understanding of the psychological factors that are at play to limit choices for young adults.

 

I believe strongly that the theology and family culture around heavily involved ATI families creates a young adult with limited and scripted choices. That is not based on speculation.

[gardenmom5]

We have a different understanding of the psychological factors that are at play to limit choices for young adults.

 

I believe strongly that the theology and family culture around heavily involved ATI families creates a young adult with limited and scripted choices. That is not based on speculation.

 

:iagree:  even for non-ATI families - some just have the psychology that you *will* do what has been decided for you,  to the point that often the smallest of twinkling of an idea of taking another path doesn't even register.   btw: there will be h3ll to pay if you don't do as told.  My grandmother was probably NPD (and regularly used religion as a weapon), and you did NOT cross her.  the older I get, the more I appreciate the very subtle control she exerted.

 

she never forgave me for breaking away her shackles and living my own life.  I also gave deep consideration to the fact there were things I wanted - and I wasn't going to allow anyone to know until I was mentally, emotionally, and psychologically ready to tell *her* where to stick it!  (and yes, she was very angry when she found out what I was doing and I needed to have those psychological reserves!  I think if she could have gotten my mother to disown me, she would have.)

[Guest]

itsheresomewhere, on 21 Aug 2014 - 7:47 PM, said:

Several of us on here have experience with ATI. Your experience is different from others. I have a family member very deep into it. Her kids really don't have a choice in everyday life choices. They have been told if they leave, they are dead to them. So we are not being insulting. We have different experiences with ATI. I am glad your family left it but not all do.

 

This applies to many different religions and cultures all over the world. I know someone who was disowned for marrying someone outside of their race at a young age (18) instead of going to medical school like the parents wanted. His parents had so much control over him he left his pregnant wife and moved back with his parents because his mom cried and begged him to.

 

ETA: Just wanted to add that my point is that there are nutty families everywhere, but you don't even know the Duggar kids don't agree with what they have been taught. People are just ASSUMING.

 

Jinnah, the Duggar family does openly endorse the materials and programs of ATI. It is reasonable to assume that the Duggars agree with most of the teachings of Gotthard. If they had reservations, wouldn't they say so? As a homeschooler, wouldn't you make assumptions about my methods if I said I was a fan of Sandra Dodd or if I endorse Calvert or if I had links on my blog to all SWB's materials? Would I endorse Dodd if I thought RU was irresponsible? Conversely, would I endorse

Peacehill Press if I thought children should not have to slog through narrations and there was really no point in studying the French Revolution?

 

It is possible Michelle and Jim Bob depart from Gotthard on some points, but as time goes on, the grown kids "choose" things that look suspiciously like ATI dictates. Did you look at the link up-thread where the girls talk about their future and Jinger says she would like to live in NYC? Michelle later explains what Jinger "really" meant and it wasn't to live in NYC, or really any big city, though she could go visit Josh and Anna in DC. GAH! I find that extremely revealing! What might Jinger do if she actually had the full range if choice available to her? If she did not have to remain at home, putting in requests to God that her future husband would want to live IN the city? My sister lives in NYC. How did that happen? She decided to. She applied for a job, received an offer, found an apartment and moved there.

 

I understand how it is when you don't see possibilities because you have been taught that those are not options for you. It is a psychological effect that is well documented. I do believe this effect is in play with all the duggar children at this time.

[Janie Grace]

I cringed a little when they talked about having as many babies as God will give them. So many couples start with this idea and then experience difficult pregnancies, health issues, children with special needs, financial strain, marital strife or changes in their convictions. And they come to more of a "hmmmm, maybe it is okay to limit our family size" place. It just seems too soon to proclaim what you plan to do regarding family planning before you even have one baby! Just because it works for her parents doesn't mean it'll work for her, and it's such a big commitment to make at age 23.

[Guest]

We have a different understanding of the psychological factors that are at play to limit choices for young adults.

 

I believe strongly that the theology and family culture around heavily involved ATI families creates a young adult with limited and scripted choices. That is not based on speculation.

 

No, I do agree with that.  I just think that is the same in many different religions and cultures.  I also think that, in the end, it's up to each individual person.

[Guest]

Jinnah, the Duggar family does openly endorse the materials and programs of ATI. It is reasonable to assume that the Duggars agree with most of the teachings of Gotthard. If they had reservations, wouldn't they say so? As a homeschooler, wouldn't you make assumptions about my methods if I said I was a fan of Sandra Dodd or if I endorse Calvert or if I had links on my blog to all SWB's materials? Would I endorse Dodd if I thought RU was irresponsible? Conversely, would I endorse

Peacehill Press if I thought children should not have to slog through narrations and there was really no point in studying the French Revolution?

 

It is possible Michelle and Jim Bob depart from Gotthard on some points, but as time goes on, the grown kids "choose" things that look suspiciously like ATI dictates. Did you look at the link up-thread where the girls talk about their future and Jinger says she would like to live in NYC? Michelle later explains what Jinger "really" meant and it wasn't to live in NYC, or really any big city, though she could go visit Josh and Anna in DC. GAH! I find that extremely revealing! What might Jinger do if she actually had the full range if choice available to her? If she did not have to remain at home, putting in requests to God that her future husband would want to live IN the city? My sister lives in NYC. How did that happen? She decided to. She applied for a job, received an offer, found an apartment and moved there.

 

I understand how it is when you don't see possibilities because you have been taught that those are not options for you. It is a psychological effect that is well documented. I do believe this effect is in play with all the duggar children at this time.

 

Yes, but maybe the children have decided for themselves that they agree with it.  Josh and Anna moved where they did (DC?) because he wanted to.  I don't think the girls would be restricted from doing the same.

 

I just think if we apply the psychological effect to them, it should be applied elsewhere.  It's the same in other religions and cultures.  I know I keep repeating that, but people seem to miss that point and only apply it here.

[ktgrok]

People throw around the term, "cult", very carelessly.  No, it doesn't mean it is accurate.

 

I understand that people are against Gothardism... I probably am against at least some of it (if, in fact, it does teach people to spank babies with rulers and other nonsense).  However, I don't believe the Duggars are being fairly spoken about.  Everyone is assuming these children don't have a choice, but that is all assumption.  That is what I have a problem with.  People chose their religion.  It's unfair to say the children are forced just because they share the same beliefs as their parents.

 

the Duggars have promoted materials that say you should shun, as in cut off all contact, with an adult child that rebels against your teachings. That means that if  a Duggar child were to decide to wear pants, they could be cut off from the family, their siblings, etc. That's pretty much limiting their choice. 

[gardenmom5]

 Did you look at the link up-thread where the girls talk about their future and Jinger says she would like to live in NYC? Michelle later explains what Jinger "really" meant and it wasn't to live in NYC, or really any big city, though she could go visit Josh and Anna in DC. GAH! I find that extremely revealing!

 

this gives me shudders.  "you don't mean that, you don't think that, you don't want that . . . . " I don't know how many times I heard that.  makes me nauseous just thinking about it.  I was the only one in my family to say YES I DO!!!!!!!

 

[Guest]

the Duggars have promoted materials that say you should shun, as in cut off all contact, with an adult child that rebels against your teachings. That means that if  a Duggar child were to decide to wear pants, they could be cut off from the family, their siblings, etc. That's pretty much limiting their choice. 

 

I've never heard them say any of this.  Where did you get this information?  If it's just the Gothard teachings, it doesn't mean they agree with it.  They can agree and disagree with the Gothard's on different teachings.  

[Guest]

this gives me shudders. "you don't mean that, you don't think that, you don't want that . . . . " I don't know how many times I heard that. makes me nauseous just thinking about it. I was the only one in my family to say YES I DO!!!!!!!

 

Yes, it was that way in my family, too. That is no doubt why I am hyper-alert to it.

[Aelwydd]

I guess I don't really consider the Duggars as representative of most very large families (10+ kids), even religious ones. Mostly because if I were to query, say, a Mormon or Catholic family, they would likely be pro-higher education, and pro university. Even if they couldn't afford to pay for college for all their kids, they'd still likely be supportive.

 

Everything I have read about ATI goes against that trend. Everthing I have read or observed about the Duggars is they do not support any but religious, online secondary classes, and traditional college or university, not at all. Jill went from wanting to be a nurse, to a certified midwife, to being a doula and missions worker to...now, married a month or so and already pregnant.

 

None of the other adult kids have pursued post secondary education.

 

Not in community college, trade school, nor university.

 

Parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit. I do feel it is disturbing when life choices, such as career, education, and marriage prospects are as carefully managed for adult children as seems to be the case with the Duggars.

[Aelwydd]

Dp.

[Guest]

I've never heard them say any of this. Where did you get this information? If it's just the Gothard teachings, it doesn't mean they agree with it. They can agree and disagree with the Gothard's on different teachings.

It is a Gotthard teaching. I have not heard them specifically say that. However, they endorse Gotthard's materials. It goes back to the same question - would you endorse materials if you disagree with some practices? Would you not at least wish to clarify that you disagree with this part or that part?

[ktgrok]

I've never heard them say any of this.  Where did you get this information?  If it's just the Gothard teachings, it doesn't mean they agree with it.  They can agree and disagree with the Gothard's on different teachings.  

 

They promote S.M. Davis on their website, they even have links to videos, etc of his right on their website, including one on rebellion. S.M Davis also has handouts you can find on the internet, including how to handle a rebellious older child, over 18. This is a quote:

 

What Do I Do With A Rebellious Older Child when I Have Other Younger Children Still Living At 

Home?

If you are dealing with an older sibling that has younger siblings still living at home then you will 

have to cut off ALL communication between the rebellious young adult and the other children. 

That means ALL forms of communication. Phone calls, e-mails, letters and even eye contact! You 

may think this is a bit harsh and drastic but if you don’t break all communication then you will 

begin the domino effect explained on the following DVDs: (You may consider getting these DVDs

and letting your other children watch them and discuss them when you are finished.)

AWhy Satan wants the First Born@

AThe Influence of Older Children on Younger Ones@

“How to Help Weak Children Become Strongâ€

 

 

If the Duggars disagree with S.M. Davis on how he handles rebellion they would put some kind of warning, wouldn't they, when linking to his materials? But they don't. They link to them and praise them. So yeah, if you were to grow up isolated to the point that your siblings are your only friends, having all contact, even eye contact, cut off would be a huge price to pay. Remember, they actually helped raise their younger siblings as well, it would be devastating.

 

And again, if they disagree with people like Gothard/ATI why would they send their kids the camps, unsupervised?

[Guest]

I guess I don't really consider the Duggars as representative of most very large families (10+ kids), even religious ones. Mostly because if I were to query, say, a Mormon or Catholic family, they would likely be pro-higher education, and pro university. Even if they couldn't afford to pay for college for all their kids, they'd still likely be supportive.

 

Everything I have read about ATI goes against that trend. Everthing I have read or observed about the Duggars is they do not support any but religious, online secondary classes, and traditional college or university, not at all. Jill went from wanting to be a nurse, to a certified midwife, to being a doula and missions worker to...now, married a month or so and already pregnant.

 

None of the other adult kids have pursued post secondary education.

 

Not in community college, trade school, nor university.

 

Parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit. I do feel it is disturbing when life choices, such as career, education, and marriage prospects are as carefully managed for adult children as seems to be the case with the Duggars.

 

If they really are stopping their children from attending college, I don't agree with that.  It's just that we don't really know if that is what is happening.  People change their career choices all the time, so I think just because Jill changed her mind doesn't mean the parents were responsible for that.

 

It is a Gotthard teaching. I have not heard them specifically say that. However, they endorse Gotthard's materials. It goes back to the same question - would you endorse materials if you disagree with some practices? Would you not at least wish to clarify that you disagree with this part or that part?

 

I would clarify, but maybe they don't feel the need to.  

[Guest]

 

They promote S.M. Davis on their website, they even have links to videos, etc of his right on their website, including one on rebellion. S.M Davis also has handouts you can find on the internet, including how to handle a rebellious older child, over 18. This is a quote:

 

What Do I Do With A Rebellious Older Child when I Have Other Younger Children Still Living At 

Home?

If you are dealing with an older sibling that has younger siblings still living at home then you will 

have to cut off ALL communication between the rebellious young adult and the other children. 

That means ALL forms of communication. Phone calls, e-mails, letters and even eye contact! You 

may think this is a bit harsh and drastic but if you don’t break all communication then you will 

begin the domino effect explained on the following DVDs: (You may consider getting these DVDs

and letting your other children watch them and discuss them when you are finished.)

AWhy Satan wants the First Born@

AThe Influence of Older Children on Younger Ones@

“How to Help Weak Children Become Strongâ€

 

 

If the Duggars disagree with S.M. Davis on how he handles rebellion they would put some kind of warning, wouldn't they, when linking to his materials? But they don't. They link to them and praise them. So yeah, if you were to grow up isolated to the point that your siblings are your only friends, having all contact, even eye contact, cut off would be a huge price to pay. Remember, they actually helped raise their younger siblings as well, it would be devastating.

 

And again, if they disagree with people like Gothard/ATI why would they send their kids the camps, unsupervised?

 

 

Okay, that's disturbing for sure.  How do we know they know about this way of thinking?  I could like some group, but not know everything about it.  

[ktgrok]

Okay, that's disturbing for sure.  How do we know they know about this way of thinking?  I could like some group, but not know everything about it.  

 

Because they specifically refer to his teachings on rebellion on their website? 

[Guest]

Yes, but maybe the children have decided for themselves that they agree with it. Josh and Anna moved where they did (DC?) because he wanted to. I don't think the girls would be restricted from doing the same.

I do. The Gotthard teaching, assuming they agree with it, and it appears they do, is that GIRLS are subject to their father's authority until they marry their parent-approved husband, at which time they are subject to his authority. They are LIMITED from being in ANY position where they are under any authority from a man who is not their father or their husband. This means they cannot be a Legal Secretary, or a Receptionist, or a Bank teller, or any position that would make them authority over other men.

 

It might be that the Duggars think that is bunk. But it doesn't appear so. If Jinger wants to live in a city, why doesn't she make plans to do so? Because she is not permitted to. She can only hope that an approved suitor will come along and that HE will want to move to a city. Oh, but don't forget, God might want her to learn contentment, so her suitor might come from central Nebraska and live really close to...nothing at all. :rolleyes

 

JOSH can move to DC because he is the man and is head of the family. Do you really think ANNA could have elected to move to DC? Would Josh say, "Sure, honey. i'll find a job so we can move where you like." No way. Even when they first got married, SHE moved to where Josh was.

 

I just think if we apply the psychological effect to them, it should be applied elsewhere. It's the same in other religions and cultures. I know I keep repeating that, but people seem to miss that point and only apply it here.

[Mrs Mungo]

Yes, but maybe the children have decided for themselves that they agree with it.  Josh and Anna moved where they did (DC?) because he wanted to.  

We don't really know how much of that is true. He was offered a political job with a religious/political mashup organization. Did he just want to take the job and move? Or was there pressure exerted from other sources? We don't know.

 

I don't think the girls would be restricted from doing the same.

Disagree. The girls only do college classes online via a Vision Forum promoted program that is widely regarded as a diploma mill. It isn't an official degree program. You can't receive financial aid or use it for grad school.

 

When we were considering college, we knew that the typical student ends up borrowing about $15,000-$20,000 and sometimes even more to get a college degree. When you multiply that by 10 or 20 children in our family, that would be several hundreds of thousands of dollars. That would be something our family couldn’t afford.

Given their hard stance against debt, don't you think these things combine to make it so that the girls cannot go to college? Do you think the Duggars would turn over their financials in order for their kids to apply for financial aid? You can't do it on your own as a dependent.

[itsheresomewhere]

Okay, that's disturbing for sure. How do we know they know about this way of thinking? I could like some group, but not know everything about it.

They are ATI royalty. The Bates are on the board and are the Duggars best friends. They do know. One of the girls was an intern for Gothard.

[gardenmom5]

I guess I don't really consider the Duggars as representative of most very large families (10+ kids), even religious ones. Mostly because if I were to query, say, a Mormon or Catholic family, they would likely be pro-higher education, and pro university. Even if they couldn't afford to pay for college for all their kids, they'd still likely be supportive.

 

as LDS, I will say this.  LDS teachings are very pro-higher education.  even a commandment to seek learning.  statistics show the more religiously active the family  - the more likely they are to encourage all their children seek higher education. I get a chuckle out of one Brigham Young quote.  if you can only educate some of your children - educate the daughters because they are the mothers. (of course, that was an era of agricultural economy.)

 

(one LDS out-reach for other countries is after communities have clean water and basic schooling for their families - is helping them get a decent education so they can get a decent job.  even in third-world countries.  it is a self-sustaining pay-it-forward type program.)

[Guest]

Because they specifically refer to his teachings on rebellion on their website? 

 

So, that information (quoted above) is on their website?

[mommaduck]

 

They promote S.M. Davis on their website, they even have links to videos, etc of his right on their website, including one on rebellion. S.M Davis also has handouts you can find on the internet, including how to handle a rebellious older child, over 18. This is a quote:

 

What Do I Do With A Rebellious Older Child when I Have Other Younger Children Still Living At 

Home?

If you are dealing with an older sibling that has younger siblings still living at home then you will 

have to cut off ALL communication between the rebellious young adult and the other children. 

That means ALL forms of communication. Phone calls, e-mails, letters and even eye contact! You 

may think this is a bit harsh and drastic but if you don’t break all communication then you will 

begin the domino effect explained on the following DVDs: (You may consider getting these DVDs

and letting your other children watch them and discuss them when you are finished.)

AWhy Satan wants the First Born@

AThe Influence of Older Children on Younger Ones@

“How to Help Weak Children Become Strongâ€

 

 

If the Duggars disagree with S.M. Davis on how he handles rebellion they would put some kind of warning, wouldn't they, when linking to his materials? But they don't. They link to them and praise them. So yeah, if you were to grow up isolated to the point that your siblings are your only friends, having all contact, even eye contact, cut off would be a huge price to pay. Remember, they actually helped raise their younger siblings as well, it would be devastating.

 

And again, if they disagree with people like Gothard/ATI why would they send their kids the camps, unsupervised?

 

 

:iagree:  I used to have S.M. Davis' CD's...via Vision Forum. 

[Joanne]

Yes, but maybe the children have decided for themselves that they agree with it. Josh and Anna moved where they did (DC?) because he wanted to. I don't think the girls would be restricted from doing the same.

 

I just think if we apply the psychological effect to them, it should be applied elsewhere. It's the same in other religions and cultures. I know I keep repeating that, but people seem to miss that point and only apply it here.

No, we don't miss your point. We just happen to be in a thread involving the Duggars so that IS what we are talking about. Your point would make more sense if someone posted about cults and we only discussed ATI.

 

And I still think that influence and cult are distinct. ATI is cultish - possibly a cult. Presbyterian USA or Methodist or Quaker are not. Nor is Buddhism or fantasy football.

[Guest]

We don't really know how much of that is true. He was offered a political job with a religious/political mashup organization. Did he just want to take the job and move? Or was there pressure exerted from other sources? We don't know.

 

 

Disagree. The girls only do college classes online via a Vision Forum promoted program that is widely regarded as a diploma mill. It isn't an official degree program. You can't receive financial aid or use it for grad school.

 

 

Given their hard stance against debt, don't you think these things combine to make it so that the girls cannot go to college? Do you think the Duggars would turn over their financials in order for their kids to apply for financial aid? You can't do it on your own as a dependent.

 

 

You are correct.  We don't know.  That is why I think people stop assuming so much.  They could really be crazy nut jobs... or they could be really good people and their children have chosen to follow in their footsteps because they like their lifestyle.  We just don't know.  All I'm saying is that I think people should stop assuming so much about them without knowing.  We have no clue how much they restrict or don't restrict their children.  We have no clue about any of the personal lives beyond the little bit we see on television.  

[ktgrok]

So, that information (quoted above) is on their website?

 

The information I quoted comes directly from the www.solvefamilyproblems.org website. Which the Duggars link to. The Duggars don't have every handout on their website, but they specifically have mentioned, in open letters to their fans (I can find one if you need me to, i just read another one) the help for rebels DVDs, which is what that quote comes from. They have some of the actual videos on their (the Duggar) website, as well. 

[Mrs Mungo]

All I'm saying is that I think people should stop assuming so much about them without knowing. We have no clue how much they restrict or don't restrict their children. We have no clue about any of the personal lives beyond the little bit we see on television.

Analyzing what they share (as in the NYC example) isn't making an assumption.

[ktgrok]

This is a direct quote of one of the Duggar Familiy's open letters. Notice the link to the rebellion articles on the S.M Davis website. 

 

Hello from the Duggar Family,
    Thank you for emailing us, we love hearing how God is working in lives. We are sorry due to the volume of emails we are receiving we are unable to have a personal response to each email. We do try to read each message and pray for the needs mentioned. We would like to share some resources that have helped our family and we pray they will be a blessing to you. We do not make any money off these resources, we are just trying to highlight some dynamic Bible teaching that has drawn our family close to God and to each other. 
    We encourage you to sign up for the Free Daily Success Emails. They are excellent. You can sign up athttp://iblp.org/iblp/discipleship/dailysuccess/ . They are packed full of truths that will inspire and challenge you.
     Also, Dr. S.M. Davis’ DVD messages have helped us raising our children. He has many topics on family relationships that are very helpful at http://www.solvefamilyproblems.com/rebels_under18.html . 

 

 

Edited to add, that link isn't working, but here's the website: http://www.solvefamilyproblems.org/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1855

[ktgrok]

Here is a link to the Duggar website, the third resource listed is the S.M Davis one. http://www.duggarfamily.com/content/resources

 

And here is another section of the Duggar website, again promoting S.M. Davis http://www.duggarfamily.com/videos-drsmdavis

[Guest]

You are correct. We don't know. That is why I think people stop assuming so much. They could really be crazy nut jobs... or they could be really good people and their children have chosen to follow in their footsteps because they like their lifestyle. We just don't know. All I'm saying is that I think people should stop assuming so much about them without knowing. We have no clue how much they restrict or don't restrict their children. We have no clue about any of the personal lives beyond the little bit we see on television.

You are incorrect. We DO have a clue. We have MANY clues! We have clues from the website, from the tv show, from the books they wrote, which I have read. They state MANY things that they do specifically restrict! It's not an assumption. It is factual. They do specifically restrict how boy-girl relationships are to proceed. Their website explains how old sibling chaperones must be; their books talk about how conversations between Josh and Anna were conference-call with Jana/Jill/Jessa, too. They say specifically on the show what they believe about clothing.

 

It is true I have not heard them say, "our children are not allowed to go to college while they are under our authority." Yet, they do say on their website what the children do after high school. Here's a sample:

 

Question from a "19 Kids and Counting" fan on Facebook: How do the kids continue their education after they get their GEDs?

 

The kids really continue their educations in lots of ways after they finish their GEDs.

 

It’s endless the things that they can study and learn about, even though they’ve already graduated high school. They’re doing their “college†things that they want to do, but a lot of them are getting paid for it. And that’s what’s great about on-the-job training. They’re making money getting trained to do the things that they love.

 

For the girls, Jana and Jill have been working really hard on their midwifery skills. Ginger has gone on to study photography and now she shoots weddings, babies and even births. It’s kind of neat because she works with a lot of the moms who Jana and Jill have worked with in their midwifery training. Our girls also play music and you’d be amazed at how much harp and violins are in demand at events. One day we got a call asking if the girls would be interested in doing music for an event. And I was like, “Go for it.†You’ve gotten the training. You can do this.

 

As for the older Duggar boys, our oldest Josh is in Washington, D.C. working in politics now. Joseph is working at the Fire Department and getting more life skills, training in first aid and first responding. He just loves that kind of thing. And John-David is training to be a pilot now, as well as a fireman and a police officer.

 

You never know when you’re going to need those skills to save a life. <snip>

 

For our family, it’s all about apprenticing with other people who are really good at what they do and are happy to teach us. The benefits from gaining that knowledge, and often getting paid while they’re learning, are a great thing. We’re never going to stop learning and training in life.

The bold emphasis is mine. It would be very unpopular to say this more directly. It's all about apprenticing. Nothing is said about marketable skills, careers that one can carry on for a lifetime.

[gardenmom5]

 

The bold emphasis is mine. It would be very unpopular to say this more directly. It's all about apprenticing. Nothing is said about marketable skills, careers that one can carry on for a lifetime.

 

or careers that one can use to support a family on if need be (even if they are happily married with children - some husbands do die young).  I'd have more respect for the midwifery if they were ALSO RN/BSNs  but they aren't allowed to do that  . . . . .

 

[December]

 

The bold emphasis is mine. It would be very unpopular to say this more directly. It's all about apprenticing. Nothing is said about marketable skills, careers that one can carry on for a lifetime.

 

To play devil's advocate, a college degree, by itself, doesn't necessarily make you marketable either.  

[FaithManor]

I just hear an awful lot of assuming when it comes to the Duggars, and I don't think it's okay.  The people on here saying the Duggar children have no choices are not speaking from personal knowledge of the Duggars.  I think those who actually KNOW them aren't the ones putting them down.

And you are making an assumption that no one has personal experience or personal knowledge. That is a dangerous assumption to make given that the boot camp for wayward girls is in North Michigan, and I have experience with that organization. My dad has assisted in a church run counseling program for families seeking to leave ATI, the Duggars have been to the camp more than once, and my dad has personal experience with them which I will not share on a public forum. Let's see what else:

 

Dh and I have harbored more than one abused 18 year old runaway from ATI. For the sake of their privacy, I will not relate their experiences suffice it to say, if Gothard were ever committed to mining granite with a teaspoon in Siberia, I would not think it harsh and his exploits are well known to his followers including the Duggars and the Bates.

 

The Duggars still chose to send Jana to the Northwoods, Michigan boot camp after the video segment about "the city. Yes we know this for a fact. The Northwoods camp is not a fun camp. When Jana was interviewed along with Erin Bates about what was good about the camp (an interview arranged for and conducted by ILBP personnel under Gothar's direct oversight) the response was, "Time alone with the Lord." Yes, one does get "time alone with the Lord" when one is in solitary confinement. Those that have escaped from the Indianapolis facility describe confinement to the "prayer room" which is solitary, as lasting an average of one week but up to two weeks.

 

My own ATI materials are EXACTLY what the Duggars describe on their website and in the book, their first book as well as on the show. I've quoted from them before.

 

Michelle Duggar was part of an online mommy group before they signed up for the show in which she advocated blanket training and actually admitted to slapping her babies to train them to not leave the blanket, and endorsed to other mothers there - some of whom were on that board at the time and read her posts and at various times were posters here as well - "Train up a Child" by Michael Pearl in which parents are told to slap their babies when they cry, blanket train which includes hitting the child for leaving the blanket, and beating with flexible plumbing hose. They endorsed the book until they signed on for the show and then took the book off their website but never denounced the teachings. Therefore, if that is what she chose to endorse to young mothers on a public mothering forum, I don't think it's an assumption that her babies were slapped, and her children beaten with plumbing line or at least threatened with it to keep them in line. It would only be logical that she used the methods she endorsed.

 

And this is not BY ANY MEANS, an exhaustive list of what my family knows of ATI and the Duggars.

 

So, let's NOT assume everyone who speaks out against ATI or the way the Duggar children are being raised is talking from a place of ignorance.

 

"A Matter of Basic Principles" is an enlightening read and available on Amazon as a start to figuring out what the doctrines of ATI/IBLP are. Someone else would have to look up ATI threads in which I posted direct quotes from his materials. I am no good at searching, and too tired to think about it right now. But, it had quotes from the curriculum concerning midwifery (Gothard is a self proclaimed expert on women's health issues despite A. never being married and B. never having any medical training beyond what he might have learned in biology class in 1950), make up, women's hair and clothing, TV, etc.

 

The book "Growing up Duggar", by the older girls, will give you another look at how the kids are raised. It is not great writing by any stretch, but informative.

[mommaduck]

I don't know if it was the same mommy board, but I remember her being on one I was on and her talking to us about blanket training, etc.

[FaithManor]

It was CMOMB. She advocated using flexible rulers for the blanket training and at one point, women were posting where they could get the rulers and for what price. Women lambed onto that which just hurts my heart all to pieces. I cannot possibly imagine smacking my 6 month old with a ruler. And lest someone come on here and say, "It couldn't hurt that much because it was flexible!", do us all a favor, go buy one of those things - you can usually find them in bright colors at Staples so you can pick a colorful instrument to be beaten with - and have your husband or wife smack you on the legs with that thing. Yes, she advocated hitting below the diaper so there would be nothing to cushion the blow...a teaching of Michael and Debi Pearl.

 

Tomorrow I'll find my link to the screen shot of the CMOMB thread. I hope I still have it. If not, maybe I can find someone else who has a screen shot of it. Disturbing!

[mommaduck]

I remember the great exodus as well. Things got really weird after the Duggar chat.

[Guest]

The information I quoted comes directly from the www.solvefamilyproblems.org website. Which the Duggars link to. The Duggars don't have every handout on their website, but they specifically have mentioned, in open letters to their fans (I can find one if you need me to, i just read another one) the help for rebels DVDs, which is what that quote comes from. They have some of the actual videos on their (the Duggar) website, as well. 

 

 

This is a direct quote of one of the Duggar Familiy's open letters. Notice the link to the rebellion articles on the S.M Davis website. 

 

Hello from the Duggar Family,

    Thank you for emailing us, we love hearing how God is working in lives. We are sorry due to the volume of emails we are receiving we are unable to have a personal response to each email. We do try to read each message and pray for the needs mentioned. We would like to share some resources that have helped our family and we pray they will be a blessing to you. We do not make any money off these resources, we are just trying to highlight some dynamic Bible teaching that has drawn our family close to God and to each other. 

    We encourage you to sign up for the Free Daily Success Emails. They are excellent. You can sign up athttp://iblp.org/iblp/discipleship/dailysuccess/ . They are packed full of truths that will inspire and challenge you.

     Also, Dr. S.M. Davis’ DVD messages have helped us raising our children. He has many topics on family relationships that are very helpful at http://www.solvefamilyproblems.com/rebels_under18.html . 

 

 

Edited to add, that link isn't working, but here's the website: http://www.solvefamilyproblems.org/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1855

 

 

Here is a link to the Duggar website, the third resource listed is the S.M Davis one. http://www.duggarfamily.com/content/resources

 

And here is another section of the Duggar website, again promoting S.M. Davis http://www.duggarfamily.com/videos-drsmdavis

 

Thanks for the links! 

 

You are incorrect. We DO have a clue. We have MANY clues! We have clues from the website, from the tv show, from the books they wrote, which I have read. They state MANY things that they do specifically restrict! It's not an assumption. It is factual. They do specifically restrict how boy-girl relationships are to proceed. Their website explains how old sibling chaperones must be; their books talk about how conversations between Josh and Anna were conference-call with Jana/Jill/Jessa, too. They say specifically on the show what they believe about clothing.

 

It is true I have not heard them say, "our children are not allowed to go to college while they are under our authority." Yet, they do say on their website what the children do after high school. Here's a sample:

 

 

The bold emphasis is mine. It would be very unpopular to say this more directly. It's all about apprenticing. Nothing is said about marketable skills, careers that one can carry on for a lifetime.

 

I watch their show and have read their first book... I just don't see anything wrong with courting.  I don't understand why people care so much about that.

 

I disagree with not encouraging kids to attend college, but just because I disagree doesn't mean I should say they are wrong or in a cult, IMO.

[Mrs Mungo]

I watch their show and have read their first book... I just don't see anything wrong with courting. I don't understand why people care so much about that.

 

I disagree with not encouraging kids to attend college, but just because I disagree doesn't mean I should say they are wrong or in a cult, IMO.

It isn't about encouraging anything. It is about maintaining a fair amount of control over young adults, to include sending them to reprogramming boot camps. They offer other parents ideas about how to quell "rebellion" (what some would call simply making different decisions) in young *adults*. There is good reason for people to have a problem with that.

[Guest]

And you are making an assumption that no one has personal experience or personal knowledge. That is a dangerous assumption to make given that the boot camp for wayward girls is in North Michigan, and I have experience with that organization. My dad has assisted in a church run counseling program for families seeking to leave ATI, the Duggars have been to the camp more than once, and my dad has personal experience with them which I will not share on a public forum. Let's see what else:

 

Dh and I have harbored more than one abused 18 year old runaway from ATI. For the sake of their privacy, I will not relate their experiences suffice it to say, if Gothard were ever committed to mining granite with a teaspoon in Siberia, I would not think it harsh and his exploits are well known to his followers including the Duggars and the Bates.

 

The Duggars still chose to send Jana to the Northwoods, Michigan boot camp after the video segment about "the city. Yes we know this for a fact. The Northwoods camp is not a fun camp. When Jana was interviewed along with Erin Bates about what was good about the camp (an interview arranged for and conducted by ILBP personnel under Gothar's direct oversight) the response was, "Time alone with the Lord." Yes, one does get "time alone with the Lord" when one is in solitary confinement. Those that have escaped from the Indianapolis facility describe confinement to the "prayer room" which is solitary, as lasting an average of one week but up to two weeks.

 

My own ATI materials are EXACTLY what the Duggars describe on their website and in the book, their first book as well as on the show. I've quoted from them before.

 

Michelle Duggar was part of an online mommy group before they signed up for the show in which she advocated blanket training and actually admitted to slapping her babies to train them to not leave the blanket, and endorsed to other mothers there - some of whom were on that board at the time and read her posts and at various times were posters here as well - "Train up a Child" by Michael Pearl in which parents are told to slap their babies when they cry, blanket train which includes hitting the child for leaving the blanket, and beating with flexible plumbing hose. They endorsed the book until they signed on for the show and then took the book off their website but never denounced the teachings. Therefore, if that is what she chose to endorse to young mothers on a public mothering forum, I don't think it's an assumption that her babies were slapped, and her children beaten with plumbing line or at least threatened with it to keep them in line. It would only be logical that she used the methods she endorsed.

 

And this is not BY ANY MEANS, an exhaustive list of what my family knows of ATI and the Duggars.

 

So, let's NOT assume everyone who speaks out against ATI or the way the Duggar children are being raised is talking from a place of ignorance.

 

"A Matter of Basic Principles" is an enlightening read and available on Amazon as a start to figuring out what the doctrines of ATI/IBLP are. Someone else would have to look up ATI threads in which I posted direct quotes from his materials. I am no good at searching, and too tired to think about it right now. But, it had quotes from the curriculum concerning midwifery (Gothard is a self proclaimed expert on women's health issues despite A. never being married and B. never having any medical training beyond what he might have learned in biology class in 1950), make up, women's hair and clothing, TV, etc.

 

The book "Growing up Duggar", by the older girls, will give you another look at how the kids are raised. It is not great writing by any stretch, but informative.

 

Okay, what you are describing (hitting baby with plumbing line) is child abuse, IMO, and I'm baffled at why anyone would do something like this.  For me, though, this is just heresay, so I'm not going to accuse the Duggars of child abuse when I have no personal knowledge they have hit their babies with plumbing lines.  I think that is dangerous and unfair.  

 

These things are of course cause for concern, and I have heard them before... I just haven't seen any evidence that they are child abusers, KWIM?  The authors of the books they read may be, but just because they read or follow parts of a book doesn't mean they agree with everything.  Are you saying Michelle Duggar admitted on the old sites that she hit her baby with a plumbing line? Not being snarky there... just saying if she didn't say she did it, I don't think we should say she believes in doing it.

 

Raising children in their belief system is what all parents are doing, regardless of what their beliefs are.  Who are any of us to say that our ways are better than theirs?  

 

I will have to read the latest book you mentioned... just haven't gotten around to it.  

[Guest]

It was CMOMB. She advocated using flexible rulers for the blanket training and at one point, women were posting where they could get the rulers and for what price. Women lambed onto that which just hurts my heart all to pieces. I cannot possibly imagine smacking my 6 month old with a ruler. And lest someone come on here and say, "It couldn't hurt that much because it was flexible!", do us all a favor, go buy one of those things - you can usually find them in bright colors at Staples so you can pick a colorful instrument to be beaten with - and have your husband or wife smack you on the legs with that thing. Yes, she advocated hitting below the diaper so there would be nothing to cushion the blow...a teaching of Michael and Debi Pearl.

 

Tomorrow I'll find my link to the screen shot of the CMOMB thread. I hope I still have it. If not, maybe I can find someone else who has a screen shot of it. Disturbing!

 

Michelle Duggar personally said she does that?

[idnib]

The other thing is the pressure from being on television. A child who might rebel in a more private family could feel greater pressure to conform if their rebellion would be televised and/or jeopardize the family's income and future.

[mommaduck]

Thanks for the links!

 

 

I watch their show and have read their first book... I just don't see anything wrong with courting. I don't understand why people care so much about that.

 

I disagree with not encouraging kids to attend college, but just because I disagree doesn't mean I should say they are wrong or in a cult, IMO.

If you've ever been in a cult or spiritual/psychological abusive group, you would understand. There is a programming. There are consequences and subtle threats. There are mind games and gaslighting. There is taking minor preferences used to insinuate or outright say that that you are sinning, it's your fault this/that/the other happened, there is shunning, there is dividing you from family and friends. Yes, I lost friends because of ATI... because we didn't take the Advanced Seminar and go all the way with it.

[mommaduck]

Michelle Duggar personally said she does that?

Yes.