s/o Multiple Paths to Solid Writing

[Farrar]

From the what books made you a better writing teacher thread...

 

What different paths or sequences or approaches do you see that can lead to "good" writing down the road?  As in, different routes, same general endpoint.  Or do you believe there's really one path (maybe with minor variations) to good writing?

 

I have some thoughts, but someone thought it would be a good thread, so I'm throwing it out there and will share later.

[kirstenhill]

This is a great topic...I have been thinking about this as well.  I have pondered quite a bit about my own public school writing experiences.   Other than one memory of being told not to use "you" in a paragraph I was writing in 5th grade, I really have no memories of writing instruction before 8th grade.  I always got good grades on writing assignments in high school and I found writing papers and literary essays in college a cinch.  But I can't for the life of me figure out how I developed those skills that led to easy A's on college writing assignments.

 

We've "dabbled" in variety of methods so far, partly because I am not finding myself convinced of any one particular path.

[MinivanMom]

Well, I can only share what I've seen in real life which is highly anecdotal.

 

As a student: I grew up in Ca attending a self-enclosed gifted class from 2nd-8th. We were one of the classes that was experimented on as they developed Writing Workshop out of Fresno State. We were given a daily block to write; there were no rules, very little instruction, and lots of invented spelling. Our teachers taught us the "writing process" (prewrite, draft, revise, edit, publish) and let us go at it. There was no structured writing instruction, no grammar instruction, and very little spelling instruction. We did keep daily journals in 2-5 and our 5th grade teacher made us do daily copywork in cursive. Our 8th grade English teacher was the first to actually give us any instruction. He gave a crash course in grammar during the fall semester (which is all the grammar instruction I got in K-12) and then he gave us a crash course in essay writing during the spring semester. I think it's important to note (on the flip side) that we also read lots and lots of high-quality literature. The result was that all of my classmates were excellent writers and most enjoyed writing. I got perfect (AP, ACT) or near-perfect (SAT) scores on all my college entrance exams despite my lack of formal grammar and flourished as a writer at the university level. My cohort had similar experiences. Obviously, it's not your average sample to begin with, though, since we were selected for this program based on IQ tests in 1st grade, but it was a successful path for us.

 

As a teacher: I went into the schools during the "Balanced Literacy" movement, but I wound up teaching at schools that did a good job of including the kind of things homeschoolers tend to value (phonics, spelling instruction, grammar instruction, cursive, actual writing instruction) with the school fads (write, write, write, and write some more). I was teaching a population of working-middle class kids, and we were turning out fairly good writers who liked writing. There were a few teachers who spent so much time making the kids write in every subject (time for everyone to write a paragraph in their math journal!) and prepping for the state writing test that they burned their kids out. That was really sad to see and left me with a very negative impression of "writing across the curriculum". I wish I knew how the burn out continued to affect their development as writers in high school and beyond. I suspect it had the least negative effect on the kids who were strong readers and writers to begin with.

 

As a neighbor: Our local schools have bought into the current fads 100%. They do "The Daily Five" and "writing across the curriculum", but I hear lots of complaints from parents. Many classes have writing blocks that are as long as 2 hrs, and my friends complain of serious burn-out for their kids. We are an affluent community, though, so the student population tends to be above average and to have unusually high amounts of parental support. Most of our kids go onto good colleges and do well there. I know that most of my friends are quick to supplement or hire a tutor in any areas they think are lacking, so I'm not sure all the credit goes to the school.

 

As a homeschooler: I've seen two different types of parents. I've seen academic homeschoolers who have always required some writing and provided some type of writing instruction (sometimes through a tutor or class at the hs level). Some of these parents are self-proclaimed classical types focusing on copywork, grammar, and academic writing, while some have been more mainstream with lots of journaling, stories, and free writing. By and large, these kids have gone onto good colleges and seem to be doing well. The ones who have not done well have parents who are open about not teaching writing at all. These parents have now either put their kids back in school (where they have struggled academically) or decided that academics/college are simply not one of their goals for their children. 

 

My opinion, based on these experiences, is that there are multiple paths to solid writing. I'm definitely not on the "only classical education produces good writers" bandwagon. It's one of the ways, but obviously our elite universities have many good writers who were never homeschooled and experienced standard school writing instruction. That doesn't mean that every path is fine for every child. I personally think the more free-form write-write-write approaches some schools use aren't going to work for many kids who need more direct instruction in writing. I think the no-writing-at-all approach isn't ever going to go well. But clearly there are multiple paths to good writing.

[Mrs Twain]

Whichever strategy or strategies are used to teach writing, there is evidence that the following are significantly beneficial:

 

--Listening to good quality literature read aloud.

--Memorizing good quality writing (speeches, quotes, poetry) to learn advanced grammatical patterns.

 

Maybe reading good literature helps, but I don't know if there is evidence for that.

 

The main element that made an improvement in my writing was my 12th grade teacher who heavily edited every paper we wrote and explained how to make improvements. In one year, the whole class made great gains in writing ability. I try to follow to same method by scheduling writing every day for my kids and sitting with them to edit their papers.

 

My kids are still on the young side, so I don't know how they will turn out.

[Crimson Wife]

I can remember some of my high school teachers crossing out long sections of my drafts and circling a handful of sentences telling me, "there's your paper. This other stuff is filler, get rid of it!" It was harsh but I think it did help me to become a better writer. The harshest critic (but ultimately probably the most helpful) was my French teacher, who'd previously taught English so he made our French courses basically une classe de literature en Francais.

 

My 8th grade and 10th grade teachers were very much into creative writing, and while that was enjoyable, I don't think it was as helpful as the teachers who focused on expository writing.

[Farrar]

I also feel like my toughest editors were the people who most made me a better writer.  They weren't always harsh - I have had plenty of teachers who were terribly harsh in ways I felt made no sense about writing - but the teachers and mentors who really picked me apart and focused on revision were the ones that helped me the most.

[Mrs Twain]

When editing my kids' papers I try to be very gentle and only pick a few, important things to correct and leave the rest.  Andrew Pudewa (on his IEW TWSS) gave useful advice about how to edit. When you see a huge error, it may be good to bite your lip and walk away.  Wait until the next lesson to teach your child whatever it was that he messed up previously, but present it in a different context so that he will not recognize it as his last paper and so he won't take it personally.  I have used this advice many times.  When the kids get older, they should be able to handle more direct and extensive editing.

 

One helpful exercise is to choose a Christmas letter out of the annual stack and let the kids be the editors.  I did this last year with my 5th grader.  The author of the letter was unknown to him and lives in a different city, so we were not criticizing anyone he knew.  The letter contained accurate content and was grammatically correct and well-organized, but it was extremely boring.  The issue was that every sentence on the entire page except one was subject-predicate.  If the writer had merely varied the "sentence starters" (IEW lingo) and replaced weak verbs with strong ones, the letter would have been far more enjoyable to read.  After examining others' mistakes, I hope my kids will think about how to avoid replicating them.

 

The converse also works.  Take a well-written piece and ask the kids why it sounds good.  What did the author do to make us like his or her writing so much?

 

[AMJ]

:bigear: :bigear: :bigear:

[Pen]

...We were given a daily block to write; ...

 

... Many classes have writing blocks that are as long as 2 hrs, and my friends complain of serious burn-out for their kids. ...

 

 

 

How long would you say is good for a writing block? What is enough, but not so much as to cause burn-out?

 

What do you think makes writing enjoyable for those who come to enjoy it?

[Alte Veste Academy]

This is my thread! I tried so hard to come up with an answer for the other thread and just couldn't. No way is there one path to good writing. For Pete's sake, there is not even a singular definition of good writing. And thank goodness! Because there is also no such thing as a singular audience or genre or purpose... I mean c'mon!

 

I think this is why I am a collector of resources. I have a bajillion books about writing, and they are ALL good. (I get rid of the bad ones, naturally! :tongue_smilie: ) They are all A way, but not one of them is THE way.

 

Aside from that, the closest I can personally get to the idea of "one true path" has to do with instructional technique rather than content. It has been extraordinarily beneficial for my kids to watch me write, to watch the struggle, see the cutting and pasting, witness self-editing when what I have written is ungrammatical or does not meet my standards. Beyond being instructional, it is comforting. Modeling allows them to see that it is completely normal to make a mess of things. The process matters. They know my criticism of their writing is always meant constructively because they see my own process and understand how criticizing my own writing makes it better. Also, I ask their opinions about my writing (what they would change, "how does this sound?"). We talk about our writing as people who are all learning something new all the time. I know more, but I am still learning.

[Farrar]

I posted the thread because I liked the question and the suggestion of it in the other thread, but now I'm kind of like, um, what do I want to say about this that isn't a completely jumble of random thoughts (and therefore not good writing by most measures).

 

I also can't really get behind the "one true path" mentality. On the other hand, I have come to believe in certain things, certain elements of teaching writing - copywork, narration, discussion, oral language as a jumping off point, reading good literature, being willing to really focus on revision and improvement  I guess what I'm allowing for is that I don't think I have the only path. I think there are probably other paths that are right for other kids.

 

The one thing that I don't see as working very well is people who want writing to be very workbook based and without a lot of parent input or interaction. I think a lot of things can work, but writing without human feedback is something I'm unsure about.

[MinivanMom]

How long would you say is good for a writing block? What is enough, but not so much as to cause burn-out?

 

What do you think makes writing enjoyable for those who come to enjoy it?

 

Well, I will confidently say that 2 hours is too long for almost all elementary children. I just checked our local elementary (which has all the teachers' daily schedules on the website) and every 5th grade teacher has 2 hrs plus set aside for "The Daily Five" (the current literacy fad). One teacher has 2 hr 5 min scheduled with no break. Another teacher has 1 hr 35 min scheduled in the morning and then another 45 min in the afternoon. That is the time spent on basic literacy skills before they write in science, social studies, and math. Several of the really bad math writing assignments at our local elem have been posted on anti-Common Core sites. Basically, they write all day. In an affluent community where nobody wants to admit their child could be struggling, lots of parents complain openly about the writing burnout.

 

I want to say that my writing block in elementary was about an hour. We also had an hour long silent reading time and our teacher read aloud to us for 30 min every afternoon (when we came in from our hour long lunch recess). We wrote the occasional science report or biography, but we didn't do that much writing in other subjects and we definitely didn't do any writing for math. That amount felt just about perfect.

 

I don't think there's a right answer to the question of "how long", though. I think it depends on the child and where he is developmentally. You want to hit that sweet-spot where you are stretching and challenging him, but not frustrating and overwhelming him.

 

I think it's the same with making writing enjoyable. As a teacher, I saw many children find their joy in writing through journaling and creative writing. Then that confidence carried over into their academic writing. From homeschoolers, I've heard many stories of kids who hated the journaling and creative writing. Their confidence grew when they were freed from the pressure of always writing about themselves and their feelings or always having to write creatively. They needed to be able to focus on the technical aspects of academic writing instead.

 

So I don't think there's one right amount of time or one right approach to making writing enjoyable. It really needs to be tailored to your child.

 

[MinivanMom]

I posted the thread because I liked the question and the suggestion of it in the other thread, but now I'm kind of like, um, what do I want to say about this that isn't a completely jumble of random thoughts (and therefore not good writing by most measures).

 

I also can't really get behind the "one true path" mentality. On the other hand, I have come to believe in certain things, certain elements of teaching writing - copywork, narration, discussion, oral language as a jumping off point, reading good literature, being willing to really focus on revision and improvement  I guess what I'm allowing for is that I don't think I have the only path. I think there are probably other paths that are right for other kids.

 

The one thing that I don't see as working very well is people who want writing to be very workbook based and without a lot of parent input or interaction. I think a lot of things can work, but writing without human feedback is something I'm unsure about.

 

This.

 

My best writing teachers were very critical of my writing. I needed their input; I learned from the back-and-forth of that interaction. I will admit that I'm pretty critical of my kids' writing. Not in a, "This is terrible," kind of way, but more in a, "This section doesn't make sense. What are you trying to say here? How could you say that more clearly," kind of a way. I sometimes get the impression (from comments on these boards) that many homeschoolers view it as a form of cheating to coach their kids in writing or to let them write multiple drafts as they revise their work. My kids write multiple drafts and I give them lots of feedback.

 

[nansk]

There was a thread last year, about two approaches to writing - whole-to-parts (Peter Elbow/Bravewriter) and part-to-whole (WWS/Classical Writing). I will post the link when I get to my computer.

ETA: It is this post.

[Mrs Twain]

I break down writing into its various skills:

 

Grammar

Spelling/Vocabulary

Content

Structure/outline

Style

(What else am I missing? MLA format or something like that?)

 

I choose curricula to address each item, though I am still trying to determine what to use to improve content in 6th-8th grades.

 

Once the student has learned and practiced the individual skills, imitating models has yielded good results in our house. The lessons and models in School Composition (Maxell) are short, simple, and yet excellent quality.

[freesia]

Honestly, no matter what curriculum it seems to come down to invention (coming up with ideas), structure and style.

 

For invention some curricula use the 5 topics and some graphic organizers.

 

For structure: This one is more controversial--some are formulaic, some say they are not. However, all seems to have--promote--some sort of organization.

 

For style: This surprised me the most, but I'm not sure why. I hear so much criticism of IEW, but all the curricula I look at deal with the same "elements of style". They just don't require them to the same degree. Killgallon exercises are exercises in the same style that IEW teaches, for instance. It's just a different way to practice. Maybe good for different children? (Indeed, of my oldest, one has done IEW and one Killgallon.) Write Source covers the same ideas of varying sentence length, complexity and sentence openers. CW's 6 sentence shuffle is more of the same. Then most of them add in simile/metaphors, etc. Even Climbing to Good English and Rod and Staff do this. In fact, every single writing source I have in my house (except perhaps my old Writer's Workship materials from teaching days) cover the exact some elements.

 

Finally, don't underestimate the power of feedback in the process. I always read my children's work back to them so that they can hear their words and ideas. I choose areas for them to revise.

 

So, it really boils down to helping your child have something to say, organize his/her ideas in a meaningful way and in a manner that is pleasant and, perhaps, persuasive. And, also, to be a mentor to them in the process. Unless it helps you internalize the methods, I think choosing one program and trusting it is fine. I don't consider myself a natural writer and it helped me to collect a bunch in order to get it. Not everyone needs to do that.

 

I think not understanding that there are different ways to get to the same point is one of the reason folks have trouble with SWB's many paths. The point is to keep moving forward in having something to say and saying it well.

[HomeschoolingHearts&Minds]

This.

 

My best writing teachers were very critical of my writing. I needed their input; I learned from the back-and-forth of that interaction. I will admit that I'm pretty critical of my kids' writing. Not in a, "This is terrible," kind of way, but more in a, "This section doesn't make sense. What are you trying to say here? How could you say that more clearly," kind of a way. I sometimes get the impression (from comments on these boards) that many homeschoolers view it as a form of cheating to coach their kids in writing or to let them write multiple drafts as they revise their work. My kids write multiple drafts and I give them lots of feedback.

 

 

:iagree:

Good heavens, don't most good writers have good editors working behind the scenes?  We don't say, "That author doesn't deserve royalties because she worked with an editor and it took a year of rewrites to revise her novel."

 

Editing is an important part of the teaching process, and revising is an important part of the writing process.  It is a very immature writer who pens a first draft and calls it "done." 

 

Since I am available to my children throughout the writing process, I have the opportunity to direct them at each stage in ways that a classroom teacher simply cannot. Many teachers wish they could.  This is an asset to be taken advantage of.  It's not cheating.  How can they learn to improve their writing without any direction?

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

My two biggest influences as a writing teacher have been SWB and Julie Bogart.  So clearly I believe there is more than one path to good writing!  ;)

 

It's kind of funny, because I don't use either of their curricula, but they have both influenced me philosophically.  When I first read SWB's WWE: Strong Fundamentals book, and started listening to her writing lectures (which I do a couple of times a year), it was a breath of fresh air coming from ps elementary writing expectations.  Some of the main things I've gleaned from SWB are that you shouldn't ask a kid to do two hard new things at once, that it's ok if skills need to be practiced repeatedly to be mastered, that talking comes before writing, and that you shouldn't expect well-researched and argued term papers from middle schoolers ( ;)) but that if you follow a progressive plan, taking the long view, you will get where you want to go.  ETA: I also learned, thankfully, that it's ok to not have creative writing/journaling be academic/required subjects, let the kid do that on their own if they desire, and be their enthusiastic audience, but for heaven's sakes don't require it and don't critique their early creative efforts.

 

From Julie Bogart, I've learned that you can take an even longer view, and move even more "slowly" in terms of independent output, and still get somewhere great.  I've learned to trust the idea of the stages kids go through, and how the parent must be a writing partner.  The Jot It Down stage/idea really has transformed how I approach writing with my younger dd - her ability to think, analyze, and articulate really interesting ideas and really great stories is light-years above her ability to write down what is in her head, and by scribing for her in 2nd grade, we've been able to unleash a lot of that brilliance, and maker her realize that she is an author, even while she works on spelling and getting things down on paper correctly (separately).  I think about all the amazing things in her head that I would have missed had I waited till she could write it all on her own!  I love Julies approach to working with your kid, and letting them see your own process/struggles as a writer.  Being their writing partner, not their writing teacher.

 

So yeah, different paths . . . although really, it's more like different areas of focus that can be combined into one path . . . the path that each, individual child walks, which will be different for each child.  So yes, there are infinite paths, but you can only walk on one at a time, maybe?  :D

 

ETA: And I guess a 3rd big influence was Dave Mark's Writing Strands: Evaluating Writing book, although again I don't use the curriculum.  My biggest take-away from that was that a piece of writing that doesn't get any feedback/revising is a wasted opportunity, but that you should pick one thing to critique per piece.  Basically, a really great approach to giving feedback.

[Walking-Iris]

I agree with pp, Julie from Bravewriter and SWB from WTM have been huge influences for me as well. I used to feel that writing was best learned by writing and attempting all of those across the curriculum assignments. Now I am relaxed and willing to let the process unfold. 

 

I use other people's writings to teach mechanics, grammar, spelling and I allow my children's writings to be honored. One thing that I've come to appreciate is that a few really well done writing projects are enough. The rest of the year can be devoted to a language rich environment. (Freewriting, copywork, dictation, poetry, reading, notebooking, journals, even blogging or online social media etc)

 

There is no need to make writing a schoolish chore. 

 

One thing Julie said that made so much sense to me is that formats were efficient. Writing formats are taught in writing curricula, not because that's great writing, but because it's easier to grade and evaluate. It's not difficult to teach, but overdoing it can inadvertently kill a child's voice and creativity. You can't really teach creativity, you just need to give it the space to grow. So I have no desire to fill my kid's days with boring writing assignments or prompts. And an expository essay is boring even if it fulfilled the format perfectly but had no personality.

 

They need to learn the formats and the academic style, but creative writing, or writing for communication, are going to be the bulk of their writing for life. 

 

Academic writing is only a short season in a person's life. And if they move into a field that requires certain formats of writing, they will learn it. It's truly impossible to prepare for all kinds of writing that our children may encounter as adults, so best to make sure we don't kill their interest and enthusiasm too early with writing burn out.

[lewelma]

I am trying to think of something to add to this thread because I have done so much reading and thinking about teaching writing. But I'm not quite sure what to say. :tongue_smilie:   Will give it some thought I my walk to the library...

 

Ruth in NZ

[Pen]

I think there are multiple possible paths, not only to learn writing overall, but also for each piece of writing.

 

I think that of all the subjects in our home school writing tends to be the most difficult. So many different skills all come into play, and it is possible to write something that is technically totally correct--yet dead. I am not sure if it is harder for us because of learning differences. I am inclined to think that that is part of it, but that it would be one of the harder subjects anyway.

 

It tends to be the hardest subject to "get into"--more foot dragging than with most, and yet at the same time also the one that when something suddenly clicks and it goes into a "flow" state, tends to be the one that is also the most hard to end and go on to something else. For that reason, I am considering making writing a 10? 20? minute a day requirement (not sure what minimum would be reasonable), but where there is a good hour or two available afterwards that can be used if the writing takes off and soars that day. I have not quite figured out how to have this open time after either. It cannot be math that would get skipped if the writing flows. Maybe grammar time.  Any ideas?

 

For us, the approach that has tended to be best so far is Bravewriter, but I have gotten a lot that is valuable from a variety of sources.

 

[Laura Corin]

My path with the boys - probably natural writers - was massive amounts of reading and light guidance.  We barely used anything that you could describe as a writing curriculum.  

 

They came to full sentences with very little guidance, then to paragraphs with a few suggestions.  Hobbes took a while to create an arc in a longer piece, but he finally reined himself in.

 

I am very, very glad that I did not put them through any very detailed writing curriculum.

 

L

[Pen]

Among approaches that seem different to me are:

 

• starting with the child's own thoughts gotten onto paper, and then revising into a whole (Bravewriter)
• starting with copywork (WWE)
• starting with a model (IEW)
• starting with an outline format to fill in
• (ETA) reading a lot--no explicit instruction

These are not totally exclusive and many of the programs that start one way also have other elements to them (BW has copywork parts available, WWE works toward outlining later on or at least at WWS, and so on).

 

 

[Pen]

My path with the boys - probably natural writers - was massive amounts of reading and light guidance.  We barely used anything that you could describe as a writing curriculum.  

 

They came to full sentences with very little guidance, then to paragraphs with a few suggestions.  Hobbes took a while to create an arc in a longer piece, but he finally reined himself in.

 

I am very, very glad that I did not put them through any very detailed writing curriculum.

 

L

 

I think that was probably true for me, but my son seems to need much more explicit instruction.

 

Also, I think even for me where I was a "natural writer," some more explicit training would have been helpful. 

 

I wonder if part of the difficulty in writing may come when a parent/teacher and a child/student are very different in their needs for freedom versus instruction.

 

Also, editing and revising are very specific skills themselves.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I think there are multiple possible paths, not only to learn writing overall, but also for each piece of writing.

 

I think that of all the subjects in our home school writing tends to be the most difficult. So many different skills all come into play, and it is possible to write something that is technically totally correct--yet dead. I am not sure if it is harder for us because of learning differences. I am inclined to think that that is part of it, but that it would be one of the harder subjects anyway.

 

It tends to be the hardest subject to "get into"--more foot dragging than with most, and yet at the same time also the one that when something suddenly clicks and it goes into a "flow" state, tends to be the one that is also the most hard to end and go on to something else. For that reason, I am considering making writing a 10? 20? minute a day requirement (not sure what minimum would be reasonable), but where there is a good hour or two available afterwards that can be used if the writing takes off and soars that day. I have not quite figured out how to have this open time after either. It cannot be math that would get skipped if the writing flows. Maybe grammar time.  Any ideas?

 

For us, the approach that has tended to be best so far is Bravewriter, but I have gotten a lot that is valuable from a variety of sources.

 

I'm definitely thinking like you are.  We will for sure have to be flexible and on some days, some topics will swell and take up more time if we get into a groove.  I think that is ok.  Usually we do math first, then writing, because those have the most intensive brain-requirements.  If writing were to swell, I could let some reading, lit, science, history, spanish -almost anything else besides math - go for the day.  There's always tomorrow.

[Pen]

When on the other thread I posted that this might make a good topic itself, the prompt for that was that someone wrote that reading a lot of different books on writing had led to seeing the commonalities that the programs all share.

 

I think that while I see commonalities that excellent writing shares with other excellent writing, I do not actually see the commonalities that the various curriculum approaches share and I hope if some of you do, that you will explain that. To me the starting points and approaches of something like starting from a Jot It Down of the child's own thoughts versus copywork of someone else's sentence vs. making a key word outline, etc,  are really quite different.

[Pen]

I'm definitely thinking like you are.  We will for sure have to be flexible and on some days, some topics will swell and take up more time if we get into a groove.  I think that is ok.  Usually we do math first, then writing, because those have the most intensive brain-requirements.  If writing were to swell, I could let some reading, lit, science, history, spanish -almost anything else besides math - go for the day.  There's always tomorrow.

 

I think I'll try that. Math followed by writing. If writing soars then it can take the place of other things.

 

If that happened day after day where all the other subjects were getting missed, I could address that as a welcome problem, but no need to cross a bridge before it arrives. 

[Farrar]

I think there are multiple possible paths, not only to learn writing overall, but also for each piece of writing.

 

So true!

 

When I was classroom teaching, I never made kids do an outline or anything like that for compositions...  unless they floundered.  And then I would make them do it, or do it with them even more often.  I always hated when there was one right way to organize things according to the teacher and you had to follow it or your end product was wrong. There are lots of ways to set out to write something and turn out a good product in the end.

 

I tend to really believe in the Brave Writer sort of letting the child find their way in by having a language rich environment and then just helping them turn their voice into written work, but I have definitely taught kids who would have struggled to learn that way and who needed really incremental steps, much more like a program like IEW. But I saw how, with a lot of practice over the course of a couple of years, they did begin to get ownership of those models and move at least a little beyond them. Kids that I shepherded through writing self-assessments (a key part of the school where I taught) as sixth graders by essentially making it a fill in the blank process for them, almost always could sit down and turn out really thoughtful, organized self-assessments by the time they were eighth graders.

[Farrar]

You know, thinking more, one thing that hasn't come up in this thread, which is sort of a concern to me is the idea that while there are a lot of great paths to learning to write, for the vast majority of kids, they don't start in preschool. When I think about the methods that public schools are using, I think many of them have a lot of value, even if I think there are better methods, especially for some kids, but I think the bigger mistake that I see schools making is not being willing to take a longer view.  The best paths to good writing take a long view of getting there.

[Crimson Wife]

The biggest issue I have with PS writing these days is the emphasis on quantity over quality. 3 sentences each day in K. A 5 paragraph essay in 3rd. Who cares if it's riddled with errors and doesn't make sense? Look at how much writing they're doing!

[Alte Veste Academy]

You know, thinking more, one thing that hasn't come up in this thread, which is sort of a concern to me is the idea that while there are a lot of great paths to learning to write, for the vast majority of kids, they don't start in preschool. When I think about the methods that public schools are using, I think many of them have a lot of value, even if I think there are better methods, especially for some kids, but I think the bigger mistake that I see schools making is not being willing to take a longer view. The best paths to good writing take a long view of getting there.

Along these lines, I think most people just expect too much too soon from kids. Why can't it just be fun and low key for a while? I think most people are uncomfortable with kids' messy beginning writing, whether the mess is handwriting, spelling, punctuation, grammar, or all of the above. But to me, especially at the earliest ages, those things are secondary to the ideas which are expressed and to the child's self-identity of a writer. Those things matter, of course (we do a lot of grammar here, LOL), but do they matter most? I think it is stultifying to a child when they become the focus of writing lessons. I think it was Ralph Fletcher who said (to grossly paraphrase), whoever puts a great read down and says that was fabulous, such wonderful spelling, and wow! those margins were perfect!? No one, that's who. On the other hand, it is hard to slog through good ideas that are poorly written, so I am absolutely not saying mechanics don't matter. I just believe a young writer's confidence is improved when the focus in a writing lesson is on ideas, and mechanics are considered tools to assist the writer in clear expression of those ideas in a way that is comprehensible and enjoyable for the audience.

 

Plenty of kids are interested in writing at a young age, but the tendency is for people to think that if kids are writing, regardless of age and readiness, it needs to be more and better, and FAST, in terms of both volume and quality. My kids became writers before they could even form letters. They would draw a picture, then I would ask them to tell me about the picture while I scribed for them. They were writers. Handwriting is not the same thing as writing. All three of my kids have always loved to write and I honestly believe it is because they were taught to take pride in their ideas on paper, and they knew that I valued their words on paper, regardless of how they got there. Honestly, I think more kids would like writing if they were interfered with less at the beginner level.

[Chrysalis Academy]

:hurray: because liking  your post wasn't enough, AVA!

[Alte Veste Academy]

You are too kind, Rose. :)

[Chrysalis Academy]

:lol: I think I'm just feeling impassioned by the other thread on the disappearance of kindergarten!!  Your post hit a sweet spot for me because of what that thread has had me pondering all day.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Yeah, I have been trying to find the right words for my feelings on the K thread. :lol:

[Wildiris]

The multiple paths to writing are varied. Some posters swear by X curriculum, while others pan X curriculum in favor of another. What encourages good writing is reading and plenty of practice writing. But more than just learning to write, it is learning about the process of writing that matters. Kids need to know that their first draft is going to be bad and it's OK. I enjoy showing my kids rough drafts from authors they know. Most often these rough drafts are handwritten with bold cross outs and whole sections circled and Xed. I try to get my kids to learn to love the revision stage of writing where they can tinker with structure and words to direct their writing.   

 

Kids also need to know what good writing looks like and sounds like as a finished draft. One of my favorite resources for kids is 6+1 Traits of Writing because it has samples of student writing. Reading over these samples, my kids quickly pick up what works and what doesn't work in writing and why it doesn't work. During the editing process I constantly ask my kids how they can say it better, is this what you mean, etc. I get them to work on refining their writing.

 

All of this takes time, so not all writing assignments get this treatment. Daily writing across subjects ensures that writing will become easier and better. IMO, having a solid foundation in grammar is a must for writing well.

[ElizaG]

Among approaches that seem different to me are:

 

• starting with the child's own thoughts gotten onto paper, and then revising into a whole (Bravewriter)
• starting with copywork (WWE)
• starting with a model (IEW)
• starting with an outline format to fill in
• (ETA) reading a lot--no explicit instruction

These are not totally exclusive and many of the programs that start one way also have other elements to them (BW has copywork parts available, WWE works toward outlining later on or at least at WWS, and so on).

I like this list, but a few more broad categories also come to mind.   Some of these aren't emphasized much in modern curricula, but they can all be found in traditional classical writing instruction. 

 

1)  Approaches that emphasize oral language skills as the foundation for written language, e.g.:  

 

Memorization and recitation

Oral retelling (narration) of a story or passage that was spoken aloud

Oral composition on a given topic

 

2)  Translation of classic literature from other languages to one's own (construing)

 

3)  Approaches based on exercises that encourage originality within set constraints, e.g.:  

 

Writing a sentence using a given word list

Finishing a partially completed passage

Writing verse with a given meter and rhyme scheme

Sentence combining

(Filling in an outline, as mentioned above, could fit in here.)