Why Vaccines Matter

[Slartibartfast]

No? http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2014/02/female-genital-mutilation-and-male-circumcision-time-to-confront-the-double-standard/

 

No.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17419812

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18086100

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19028385

 

http://www.path.org/files/FGM-The-Facts.htm

 

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

 

http://www.unicef.org/protection/57929_58002.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/magazine/20circumcision-t.html?_r=1&

[NASDAQ]

I wasn't arguing against the vaccine, my original post that was quoted was about circumcision.

 

My kids are vaccinated, they are a bit young for hpv shots but they have their others.

 

And safer sex IMO would include vaccines in addition to being aware of disease and how they are transmitted.

 

My response was to people who were saying "I'm not going to get the HPV vaccine because instead I'm going to teach my kid about using condoms and safe sex."

 

I don't know anything about HPV and circumcision, to be honest. We're in the religious camp so I didn't have to weigh that particular decision.

[Slartibartfast]

My response was to people who were saying "I'm not going to get the HPV vaccine because instead I'm going to teach my kid about using condoms and safe sex."

 

I don't know anything about HPV and circumcision, to be honest. We're in the religious camp so I didn't have to weigh that particular decision.

 

I see, that wasn't the argument I was making. :) We did not circumcise. When I brought my son home he was being released from the NICU with a heart condition and a  bili blanket. I wasn't even supposed to let him cry, I wasn't about to put him through that. 

 

It isn't a religious issue for me but I do respect the religious choices of others.

[Guest]

Now I think you are baiting me. Lol! I am Jewish, and chose to give my sons non-cutting, britot ha shalom (covenant of peace) for precisely this reason. So many Jews are now choosing to forego circumcision that a guide book of sorts for the ceremony is currently being funded on Kickstarter.

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1811510440/celebrating-brit-shalom

Nope, not baiting. I'm not even sure why I am having this discussion because I really don't care about circumcision at all and it used to be one of my "topics not to participate in on-line" personal rules. ;)

 

I do have way to many things to accomplish to spend a lot of time here.

[Laura Corin]

I have done neither. However, I could have, had I gone to my boss' son's Briss. Interesting how Jewish parents not only witness, but celebrate, the circumcisions of their eight-day-old sons without concluding that it's barbaric.

 

However, attending a Briss as an adult was what made Husband completely happy to go with my culture's preference for intact children.

 

L

[poppy]

Not debating, just wanted to add the circumcision is definitely in the minority in my area as well (New England ). Except of course in Jewish-majority towns like Sharon MA. I think that being intact won't be weird at all in 15-20 years when this generation of little kids comes of age. And since a lot of people do it to be normal or to look like dad or to not put off future sexual partners (all reasons I've heard many times elsewhere) my guess is that standard male circumcision wil be gone by our great grandkids generation . Again, outside if religious communities where it is practiced.

[Rivka]

I had cervical cancer this spring. Yes, I am "cured" now, but it took two surgical procedures including a hysterectomy. It is sheer luck that I had finished having children before my diagnosis. If Gardasil had been around when I was a teenager, I would still have my uterus right now. It's really painful to see people dismissing cervical cancer as "no big deal" to justify not wanting to get their kids the vaccine. It didn't kill me, sure, but it was a big deal.

 

Using condoms doesn't protect against HPV. 85% of sexually active adults have been exposed to HPV. You should teach your children good sexual health practices for many other reasons, but it won't take the place of the HPV vaccine.

[kewb]

I don't know why I keep reading this thread.  I think I have all the relevant points now.  People who don't vaccinate are selfish and unable to research and arrive at the same conclusion as people who vaccinate. Circumcision = child abuse.  I am surprised we have not yet tossed in bottle feeding=feeding your child poison in a can.

 

I think I am going to go eat some cupcakes. Gluten free, soy free, dairy free, nut free, egg free, add allergen of your choice free cupcakes.

 

[Guest]

I think I am going to go eat some cupcakes. Gluten free, soy free, dairy free, nut free, egg free, add allergen of your choice free cupcakes.

 

But is it non-GMO? ;)

[kewb]

But is it non-GMO? ;)

 

But of course.  

[LisaKinVA]

mmm..cupcakes.  

[kiana]

I think I am going to go eat some cupcakes. Gluten free, soy free, dairy free, nut free, egg free, add allergen of your choice free cupcakes.

 

But is there sugar in them? You know that stuff is poison!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:) :) (kidding)

 

I want cupcakes.

[Guest]

I don't know why I keep reading this thread. I think I have all the relevant points now. People who don't vaccinate are selfish and unable to research and arrive at the same conclusion as people who vaccinate. Circumcision = child abuse. I am surprised we have not yet tossed in bottle feeding=feeding your child poison in a can.

 

I think I am going to go eat some cupcakes. Gluten free, soy free, dairy free, nut free, egg free, add allergen of your choice free cupcakes.

FWIW, i don't think this thread is too bad. Considering the topics involved, I would say it is pretty civil. I confess I may never understand some of the viewpoints expressed, but it doesn't get me worked up any more. Not sure if that's due to my age, my falling hormones, or the Zoloft, but most decisions relating to vax and circ. have already played out for my kids. Circumcision is moot to me now. They have most of the vaccines they will need, other than boosters or if choices dictate otherwise, such as travel or medical work. So I barely care about these issues at all.

[poppy]

I just think it's funny that politics is off limits but these topics are fair game!

 

I had my mind changed by a similar discussion when I was pregnant with my first, and I'm glad I went into both vaccinations and circ with open eyes (For the record, I chose to vax on schedule, no circ). So, I absolutely do think it's a discussion worth having.

[kewb]

I agree it is a conversation worth having and overall this one has been fairly civil. I am just done with the subject matter.

 

The only sweetener in my cupcakes is raw honey. Produced by bees living free in tje wild. It is unfortunate that I had to steal their hard work but I like honey more than stevia or agave and brown rice syrup may or may not have arsenic.

[DesertBlossom]

I agree it is a conversation worth having and overall this one has been fairly civil. I am just done with the subject matter.

 

The only sweetener in my cupcakes is raw honey. Produced by bees living free in tje wild. It is unfortunate that I had to steal their hard work but I like honey more than stevia or agave and brown rice syrup may or may not have arsenic.

 

I sometimes allow myself to get sucked into online conversations like this, even though as a general rule I'm very careful about who I talk to IRL about these things. I feel very strongly about circumcision, but I don't see any point in bringing it up with people who are past the point of having babies or who have already made the choice to circumcise.

 

I do cautiously and carefully bring it up to close friends and family who are expecting because I know too many people who told me after they circumcised that they had no idea what it really was, or that they didn't know they could opt out. I know a lot of people who wish they had known more beforehand and if they had, they would have made a different choice. For that reason, I think it's an important thing to discuss. For so long it was considered a taboo subject and people just didn't talk about it. l think the fact that we can talk about it now is a big deal and it's important to do.

[unsinkable]

There is a specialist in Vancouver area who specializes in circumcision. The babies play with toys while it's done.

How old are these babies? What are they playing with?

[DesertBlossom]

Back to the subject of vaccines, I am also grateful for a place to be able to talk about it. I also belong to a forum of parents with children with a specific autoimmune disease. The site is owned by a large pharmaceutical company.  My daughter's autoimmune disease has influenced my feelings about vaccination. Unfortunately, if anyone expresses any other opinion besides die-hard pro-vaccination, the thread is locked. We are not allowed to discuss possible alternatives to the CDC's recommended schedule for our children. I know there a lot of parents on there who are also concerned about the effects of vaccines on our children, but we're shut down every time it's brought up.  And it's frustrating to me that the forum is so heavily censored.

[Reefgazer]

That's pretty darned amazing that you could tease out all other human factors that go into determining pleasure and sexual performance in order to determine the lack of circumcision was the causative effect, and not only that, do it from a single data point (or maybe more than a few)!  That's amazing!

I find it incredibly sad that an intelligent, grown woman has been so culturally conditioned that she would have "reservations" about a sexual partner who had a normal, healthy, functioning anatomical part of the male body. Indeed, I find that very sad.

 

I can completely understand how a man could find it distressing that he was strapped to a board, when he was a few days or even hours old, and had a part of his sexual organ permanently removed without his consent, often with inadequate pain medication. As already discussed, to equate such an act with formula feeding or homeschooling is preposterous.

 

I am curious if you have ever taken the time to watch a circumcision video on YouTube or witnessed a circumcision first-hand? There are plenty of training videos that have been uploaded by physicians. After seeing a few circumcisions, I would be hard-pressed to believe that you would be so nonchalant about it.

 

And yes, Crimson Wife, while I certainly respect your opinion and advice on a great many things, I will admit that my sons' sexual health did factor into my decision. I have personally been with both intact and circumcised men, and I could tell a difference with respect to their pleasure and performance. If you have an understanding of the function and role of the foreskin, the reasons for the difference should be obvious. Upwards of 20,000 erogenous nerve endings will do that. :)

 

[kiana]

And immediate censorship is (in my opinion) counterproductive.

 

I'm pro-vaccine in general, and I won't deny that in the slightest. But I'd much rather have a (neurotypical -- children who should not be vaccinated for other reasons are of course exempted from this discussion) child getting some vaccines than none, and I'd rather have children vaccinated on a delayed schedule than not at all.

 

When boards shut down thoughtful discussion, it tends to send people to extremely polemic sites for information. They naturally are more prone to search for sites which present the viewpoint they already support, and many of these sites will only present information that supports their view, whilst denigrating any other possible viewpoints (this goes for sites on both sides of the debate -- I've seen some ridiculous hyperbole on pro-vaccine sites as well). It tends to shut people down rather than helping them to think, and it also makes it look like they have something to hide.

[DesertBlossom]

That's pretty darned amazing that you could tease out all other human factors that go into determining pleasure and sexual performance in order to determine the lack of circumcision was the causative effect, and not only that, do it from a single data point (or maybe more than a few)!  That's amazing!

 

It surprises me when people won't consider the possibility that cutting off part of the penis affects it in some way. For a grown man, it's 15 square inches of mobile skin. It's a protective covering.  It's part of the penis. Plenty of research and study has gone into what role the foreskin plays during intercourse. You can see the physical changes in the glans after years of exposure, compared to a glans that has been protected by the foreskin.  It may be very difficult to compare sensitivity from one man to the next because there are so many factors at play. But the foreskin has known benefits. Circumcision removes those benefits. There's no way around that. Despite the fact that men can still have regular, enjoyable intercourse does not negate the fact that part of their penis is still missing. 

[Dory]

How old are these babies? What are they playing with?

 

He does a variety of ages right up to adult men.

[umsami]

 

 

I'm pro-vaccine in general, and I won't deny that in the slightest. But I'd much rather have a (neurotypical -- children who should not be vaccinated for other reasons are of course exempted from this discussion) child getting some vaccines than none, and I'd rather have children vaccinated on a delayed schedule than not at all.

 

 

 

I agree with this 100%.

[Reefgazer]

Yes, to the bolded.  If fact, it is impossible to determine the role of the foreskin in sexual pleasure or functioning because to have a direct apples-to-apples comparison, you would need to compare "before" and "after", which can't be done.  You could aggregate the data and make some qualitative general conclusions, but *only* if you could tease out other factors that contributed to a man's upbringing, mores, and sexual attitudes, which is so impossible to do it hasn't even been done with breast-feeding data (where it would be far easier to evaluate the effects of breast or not on siblings treated differently, even though that is still imperfect).  So all you are left with are assumptions and extrapolations based on some random physical data that may or may not have an impact of sexual pleasure/functioning.  That's worthless. 

 

I asked my DH if he felt he felt "robbed" because of his physical status.  He laughed and rolled his eyes, so I'll take that as a "no" and put more stock in that than I will in worthless assumptions and extrapolations.

It surprises me when people won't consider the possibility that cutting off part of the penis affects it in some way. For a grown man, it's 15 square inches of mobile skin. It's a protective covering.  It's part of the penis. Plenty of research and study has gone into what role the foreskin plays during intercourse. You can see the physical changes in the glans after years of exposure, compared to a glans that has been protected by the foreskin.  It may be very difficult to compare sensitivity from one man to the next because there are so many factors at play. But the foreskin has known benefits. Circumcision removes those benefits. There's no way around that. Despite the fact that men can still have regular, enjoyable intercourse does not negate the fact that part of their penis is still missing. 

 

[Reefgazer]

I've had my tonsils, various non-benign moles, and wisdom teeth removed.  None of these are vestigial, but life is better for me without any of them.  Make whatever conclusions you would like from that.

I honestly don't care all that much, but it confuses me, this idea that cutting off the foreskin does nothing. Do people think the foreskin is a vestigial bit ? Something that once had a purpose but doesn't have one any longer ? If not, it's there for a reason.

 

You may decide there are greater potential health benefits to removing it; you've still either removed something vestigial or something with a use. Which is it ?

 

[SeaConquest]

That's pretty darned amazing that you could tease out all other human factors that go into determining pleasure and sexual performance in order to determine the lack of circumcision was the causative effect, and not only that, do it from a single data point (or maybe more than a few)!  That's amazing!

 

What can I say, I was a pretty big whore. ;)

 

Clearly, I understand that my anecdotal experience is worthless. But, it's just as worthless as XYZ's husband who rolls his eyes when asked if circumcision at birth has had a negative effect on him. And people seem to put quite a bit of stock in the opinions of circumcised males who 1) have never known any difference and 2) aren't necessarily eager to embrace cognitive dissonance.

[DesertBlossom]

Yes, to the bolded.  If fact, it is impossible to determine the role of the foreskin in sexual pleasure or functioning because to have a direct apples-to-apples comparison, you would need to compare "before" and "after", which can't be done.  You could aggregate the data and make some qualitative general conclusions, but *only* if you could tease out other factors that contributed to a man's upbringing, mores, and sexual attitudes, which is so impossible to do it hasn't even been done with breast-feeding data (where it would be far easier to evaluate the effects of breast or not on siblings treated differently, even though that is still imperfect).  So all you are left with are assumptions and extrapolations based on some random physical data that may or may not have an impact of sexual pleasure/functioning.  That's worthless. 

 

I asked my DH if he felt he felt "robbed" because of his physical status.  He laughed and rolled his eyes, so I'll take that as a "no" and put more stock in that than I will in worthless assumptions and extrapolations.

 

 

Wow. I mean, we put a man on the moon but we can't figure out what the foreskin does?  I don't see any point in further arguing about this. But there is so much information available on the internet about what you claim is impossible to know. 

[Dory]

What can I say, I was a pretty big whore. ;)

 

Clearly, I understand that my anecdotal experience is worthless. But, it's just as worthless as XYZ's husband who rolls his eyes when asked if circumcision at birth has had a negative effect on him. And people seem to put quite a bit of stock in the opinions of circumcised males who 1) have never known any difference and 2) aren't necessarily eager to embrace cognitive dissonance.

 

I have known guys who have known the difference. But then, the difference of one type of circ to another would also make a difference too.

[Jasperstone]

Wow. I mean, we put a man on the moon but we can't figure out what the foreskin does?  I don't see any point in further arguing about this. But there is so much information available on the internet about what you claim is impossible to know. 

 

Now, that's debatable too, lol!!! :lol: :smilielol5:

 

;) ;) ;) :D