Alenee Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 A friend of a friend is looking for a caregiver to come in twice a day to do mostly simple activities of daily living with her quadriplegic son. However, she's also asking for the caregiver to give him his meds and do a straight cath. Apparently, she's only looking for someone who would typically be a CNA and is paying out of pocket, offering $10/hr. I read her message and my eyes about popped out of my head. Any CNA who tried to perform the straight cath would most definitely lose their license if anyone found out. The meds could pass if they've take a nurse delegation course but it's still dicey going in without an agency backing. I let her know that what she was asking for in those two things fall under a nurse's scope of practice, not a CNA and that by doing these things even as a nurse, without an agency could mean that person, nurse or CNA could lose their license. I'm sad for them as many have called to say they'd come but never showed. And they're paying out of pocket. But seriously, in the nursing profession, the laws are harsh and it's just not worth our licenses, kwim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I'm kind of surprised people have called to express interest in that job for $10 / hr. Sorry you had to be the one to break it to her. But it's best, because, I'd be a little skeptical of the skills of someone who accepted the job at that rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alenee Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 I'm kind of surprised people have called to express interest in that job for $10 / hr. Sorry you had to be the one to break it to her. But it's best, because, I'd be a little skeptical of the skills of someone who accepted the job at that rate. To the bold, yes! That's what I was thinking too. I even asked my friend if she knew the person IRL because to ask THAT and expect serious inquiries seems fishy to me. Not to mention the hours she was requiring. Just totally didn't seem right to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Sounds like they are desperate for help, but can't afford to pay more. I hope they find somebody who can legally help them with what they can afford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelotmom Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 There are provisions for this. After all, family caregivers are trained to do these things and don't need a license of any sort, and it doesn't make sense to pay an RN to provide all care to a person who is medically stable and just needs basic help like med administration and intermittent straight catheterization (nor does it make sense for an RN to do a home visit every time the person needs to pee). (I don't know about CNAs specifically, since they have an official Scope of Practice. But Googling shows me that routine straight catheterization is not considered skilled and can be performed by unlicensed personnel.) $10/hour might be a little low, but I can see some of the CNAs I work with going for it. My facility pays more than that, but not much more, and it sounds like it would be an easier job overall. Depends on where you live, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 it is quite amazing what CNAs are allowed/expected to do. $10/hour is not an uncommon rate of pay. Has your friend applied for whatever disability benefits are available in her state. She might be eligible for caregiver money. They might pay caregiver agencies directly. Maybe there's an option in your state she has not uncovered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicAnn Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 it is quite amazing what CNAs are allowed/expected to do. $10/hour is not an uncommon rate of pay. Has your friend applied for whatever disability benefits are available in her state. She might be eligible for caregiver money. They might pay caregiver agencies directly. Maybe there's an option in your state she has not uncovered. In every place I've lived $10 an hour is the going rate. 9.35-13.50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alenee Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 I did some googling myself. The best I can come up with is that it may be allowed in a home-care setting but I'm nearly positive that it is illegal in a facility. WA state has some pretty strict guidelines for CNAs. The woman returned my message saying she'd filled the positions. Glad of that. Not sure why she's having to pay out of pocket though. Just looking at the thread on facebook, plenty of people chimed in to suggest ways to get financial assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 My mom and two sisters are unlicensed in home caregivers. They do caths all the time. If the person has a license to loose, they may be in danger of doing so, if it is not within that state's guidelines, but basic caregivers do not have a license and do not fall under those same rules. $10-15 per hour is pretty typical pay for this level of care, and even that is is a financial stretch for many, many families.. My mom and sister could take the classes and get licensed (they probably already know more than most CNAs). The also have real experience, not just the small internships required to get a license, but they don't get licensed, so they can continue to provide more care, for less money, without the legal issues. My family does a lot of in home care, in between when someone needs a little help, to where they need to move into a full time nursing home. A lot of what they do is make sure someone has meal prepared, checks to make sure meds are being taken or give the meds if needed, helping with hygiene, but honestly most importantly....just sitting and being a friend. My mom especially. likely spends double the amount of time she is actually paid for, visiting and running an extra errand or two for her 'ladies'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 When I was working as a hospital tech I was allowed to do above and beyond initial CNA duties - removing caths, limited ultrasounds, other random things, assuming I'd demonstrated I could to an RN. I'm given to understand there is now an advanced (hospital) CNA training that teaches those skills and more. Perhaps the things she's asking falls under that scope? I know home health aides typically get paid less because they have more free time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In2why Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Actually I am surprised it could be a problem. When my Dad was in hospice there were lots of things we learned to do that I could not have imagined and I would think that a CNA with some medical experience is preferable to just anyone. I also think the pay scale depends on where you live. We paid $12 an hour for in home care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In2why Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I guess the setting it where the difference is with licensing? I remember when my FIL had his stroke the CNAs changed sheets and reassembled his leg circulation pads, but they were not allowed to turn on the switch. They would finish and whenever the nurse had time she would come in and push the button which turned on the air for compression. I started just turning it on myself since it was so silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alenee Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 I guess the setting it where the difference is with licensing? I remember when my FIL had his stroke the CNAs changed sheets and reassembled his leg circulation pads, but they were not allowed to turn on the switch. They would finish and whenever the nurse had time she would come in and push the button which turned on the air for compression. I started just turning it on myself since it was so silly. Yes, this. At my facility, CNAs can obtain oxygen and get it set up but aren't allowed to turn it on. Similarly, they aren't supposed to be changing colostomy bags or inserting/removing catheters, turning on or off CPM machines, etc. Families are often trained to do a lot at home that would typically be performed by a nurse, however, done in a facility, it's a totally different ball game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Not trying to derail, but it really bothers me what we expect of CNAs and other personal health assistants and what the pay rate for these positions is. Where I live lifeguards get paid more and there a numerous indoor facilities so you could work year round even part time and have a higher income. And the certification courses cost less. What is expected of CNAs is often physically hard. It's very personal. And they get paid $10/hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Not trying to derail, but it really bothers me what we expect of CNAs and other personal health assistants and what the pay rate for these positions is. Where I live lifeguards get paid more and there a numerous indoor facilities so you could work year round even part time and have a higher income. And the certification courses cost less. What is expected of CNAs is often physically hard. It's very personal. And they get paid $10/hour. :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: I looked in to CNA licensing awhile back and thought...why would anyone do that? Unless you were really motivated by the service aspect, it doesn't seem like a very good deal at all. Around here CNAs get less than $10 and do physically difficult and often unpleasant work. You can be a home health aid with no training and get paid better in this area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alenee Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: I looked in to CNA licensing awhile back and thought...why would anyone do that? Unless you were really motivated by the service aspect, it doesn't seem like a very good deal at all. Around here CNAs get less than $10 and do physically difficult and often unpleasant work. You can be a home health aid with no training and get paid better in this area. It's interesting thinking about what is allowed and what isn't. I know that the company I work for would jump on making CNAs do all of the things I listed in a previous post if they could get away with it because then they wouldn't have to have as many nurses staffed. Around here, pay really fluctuates. A CNA at my skilled facility makes anywhere between $11-$14/hr depending on experience. At the hospital, starting pay is $13ish and can go as high as $19 with shift differentials. However, it's very hard to land a hospital position. At the VA, starting pay is $15/hr. And then there's home health. Typically, that's where you find the most required with the least pay. Not to mention the danger. A home-health aide has no one to go to if they feel threatened. They can call their agency for help but they cannot leave or they will be charged with abandonment and lose their license. I became a CNA to get my feet wet and decide whether or not I really want to pursue my nursing degree. I do! And I start nursing school on June 30th. YAY! There are many like me, or those who are applying to nursing programs with a points system. You get an extra point if you have your license and another point if you have 950 hours worked. And then there are those CNAs who just got stuck and never decided to go any further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali in OR Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 My disabled dd is in a state program that provides respite care. Just want to mention that in the case that the OP brought up, in OR the quad. child would be eligible for this program and the cost of the care would be provided by the state. If the care needed to be provided by a nurse that would be paid for, but as others have said, lots of this type of care is provided by unlicensed folks who are given training . Also, the max pay rate was just over $10 until last October when all caregivers benefited from some union's contract negotiations and now they all get over $15 per hour (completely appropriate). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alenee Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 My disabled dd is in a state program that provides respite care. Just want to mention that in the case that the OP brought up, in OR the quad. child would be eligible for this program and the cost of the care would be provided by the state. If the care needed to be provided by a nurse that would be paid for, but as others have said, lots of this type of care is provided by unlicensed folks who are given training . Also, the max pay rate was just over $10 until last October when all caregivers benefited from some union's contract negotiations and now they all get over $15 per hour (completely appropriate). I believe WA is working towards something similar. I have a hard time with unions but I think it's totally appropriate to fight for higher pay in this field. I know we have negotiations going on right now with a union for our facility but I'm not sure what exactly is happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckymama Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Alenee, how wonderful that you are starting nursing school! You go, girl :party: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alenee Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 Alenee, how wonderful that you are starting nursing school! You go, girl :party: Thank you! It's a pretty big deal for me. I've wanted to be a nurse since I was three years old! When I was 18 and thinking about college my mom told me not to become a nurse because she thought I would care too much and then be devastated when people died. I wish I hadn't listened because I ended up giving up on college until now. I won't be homeschooling any longer which has come with some deep emotions but the family is super supportive and the kids are all looking forward to their own new adventures. And on the note about death/devastation, as a CNA I've come to know and love the patients and many have died but it didn't rock me the way I thought it would. I always thought I'd want to work in L&D but I appreciate being able to bring dignity to a person in their final days/hours. It's something truly special. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wabi Sabi Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I'm not a CNA, but I work for an agency that supports people with disabilities. We provide in-home care, and passing meds is part of my job description. I have to empty catheters too. I've been there for over 10 years and only earn $10/hr. Local nursing homes start off their CNAs at minimum wage ($7.25) and they get bumped up to $8 after a few months. So, in comparison, $10/hr tax free that the caregiver probably won't even claim on her taxes? I can see how its would be an attractive offer for some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bethben Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 My disabled dd is in a state program that provides respite care. Just want to mention that in the case that the OP brought up, in OR the quad. child would be eligible for this program and the cost of the care would be provided by the state. If the care needed to be provided by a nurse that would be paid for, but as others have said, lots of this type of care is provided by unlicensed folks who are given training . Also, the max pay rate was just over $10 until last October when all caregivers benefited from some union's contract negotiations and now they all get over $15 per hour (completely appropriate). The caregivers for disabled adults/children in my state is also trying to form a union. All unions may be good for the workers, but not good for the disabled people. The state gives each person a set amount of money to use for workers. The more money the caregivers make, the less hours each disabled person gets. They needed to go about it a different way. Also, the union will require every person signed up as a caregiver to pay up to 85% of the union dues even if they don't join the union which will deplete my workforce since I don't use them much and who wants to pay union dues on a job that you only work once a month? I am allowed to pay my workers a lot more than the going rate. I think that people should be paid more for what they do, but a union wrecks it for the disabled consumer. Also, a LOT of states do not have respite services or any kind of help for disabled children/adults. This woman is probably desperate for help and her only option is most likely to pay out of pocket. I should stop. Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I became a CNA because it was required for nursing school. But I think it's one of those jobs where the pay hasn't gone up in the last 15 years. I remember making $12/hour way back then. Maybe it has to do with Medicare/Medicaid funding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wabi Sabi Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 I became a CNA because it was required for nursing school. But I think it's one of those jobs where the pay hasn't gone up in the last 15 years. I remember making $12/hour way back then. Maybe it has to do with Medicare/Medicaid funding? Yes. That's one of the reasons why my pay is so low. The clients served by my agency have their residential care paid for by Medicaid, but Medicaid reimbursement rates are lower now than they were in 2002. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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