stupidusername Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 In Colorado, we are required to take a standardized test every other year. This year, my 10-year old son scored 9.1 on the 5th grade ITBS math, meaning he is performing at the same level as the average 9th grader. Here's the catch: This put him in the 95th percentile. Is it really the case that 5 percent of 5th graders are performing more than four grade levels ahead in math? Something doesn't add up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 The test doesn't actually cover material 4 grades ahead. There are a few out of level questions and below level questions, but most of it will be in the 4th-6th grade level. What he did was score the same as the average of 9th grade students in the norming sample on a 5th grade test. 95% is the cutoff at which out of level testing is recommended, because, honestly, the difference between the 95% and the 99% often is only a question or two, if that. It's entirely possible that everyone over 9th grade got a perfect score and 5% of 5th graders got a perfect score, and 95% is as high as it's possible to get-I've seen ceilings as low as 75% or so on grade level tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Yep. Like Dmmetler said, it means he did as well as a 9th grader would on a 5th grade test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 No, it doesn't mean he can do ninth grade math. It means he can do 4th to 6th grade math as well as a 9th grader can do 4th to 6th grade math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 In Colorado, we are required to take a standardized test every other year. This year, my 10-year old son scored 9.1 on the 5th grade ITBS math, meaning he is performing at the same level as the average 9th grader. Here's the catch: This put him in the 95th percentile. Is it really the case that 5 percent of 5th graders are performing more than four grade levels ahead in math? Something doesn't add up. Scoring at the 95th percentile on the 5th grade ITBS means that your son has likely mastered 5th grade math. It also means that he may have mastered some or all of 6th grade math, but probably not more than that. The grade equivalent score says more about average (50th% percentile) 9th graders than it does about your son. It means that the average 9th grader has mastered 5th grade math and possibly some or all of 6th grade math, but not much more. Average 9th graders are scoring at a level that shows mastery of 5th grade material *on the 9th grade test*. There is a continuum of scores. The GE is *not* about how a 9th grader would score on the 5th grade test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Average 9th graders are scoring at a level that shows mastery of 5th grade material *on the 9th grade test*. There is a continuum of scores. The GE is *not* about how a 9th grader would score on the 5th grade test. I had to look for a bit to find this, but the ITBS website says: National Grade Equivalent: A grade equivalent is a score that describes your student’s achievement on a grade level scale. The NGE is a decimal number that describes academic performance in terms of grade level and month. For example, if your student (as a 3rd grade student) receives a NGE of 4.2 on the third grade Reading Test, this means your student scored as well as a fourth grade student in the second month of the school year if given the same third grade Reading Test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom31257 Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 The 95th percentile means your child scored better than 95% of the 5th grade students in the original test group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I had to look for a bit to find this, but the ITBS website says: National Grade Equivalent: A grade equivalent is a score that describes your student’s achievement on a grade level scale. The NGE is a decimal number that describes academic performance in terms of grade level and month. For example, if your student (as a 3rd grade student) receives a NGE of 4.2 on the third grade Reading Test, this means your student scored as well as a fourth grade student in the second month of the school year if given the same third grade Reading Test. Yes, except that isn't how it's actually generated. There is a continuum of standard scores (SS). Say the Core Total comes out at 220. That is a score that a student taking the 4th grade test could get *and* a student taking the 6th grade test could get. The 4th grader with that score would be at the 73rd percentile and the 6th grader would be at the 50th percentile. This is why a kid can take an out of level test (lower or higher than his or her actual grade level) and have percentiles reported as compared to same grade level kids. To develop the GE norms for the test, they most certainly did *not* have a bunch of 6th graders take the 4th grade test. My guess is they decided to say it that way because they think that it's better from public relations standpoint. Far better for parents and educators to think that 9th graders at the 50th percentile are solid performers than to think that they are actually demonstrating mastery of 4th grade material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Grade level equivalency is such a joke. It makes me think that average high school students are underachievers, and then I feel sad for our country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom31257 Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Grade level equivalency is such a joke. It makes me think that average high school students are underachievers, and then I feel sad for our country. I've given my kids the ITBS and know what they missed or got right before sending it off. My kids score in the top 1-2 percent on standardized tests and don't miss much at all. I would expect an average student in a higher grade level to be able to get virtually everything right on a lower grade level test. The more a student misses, the lower that grade level comes to the actual grade level of the student in question, so I don't see how it is a sign of average students being underachievers. There have always been underachievers, overachievers, and the in between. When I was in school, many kids didn't reach their full potential; however, my class did have people who became doctors, lawyers, etc. I think the biggest thing holding students back today is society's idea that they are just kids and not expecting more mature decisions and actions from them at appropriate ages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I would expect an average student in a higher grade level to be able to get virtually everything right on a lower grade level test. The problem is that that expectation is not in line with reality. The reality is that average (50th percentile) *adults* have mastered 5th or 6th grade math. They may also be able to manage a little algebra (simple "solve for x" type stuff). I'm not making this up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 The problem is that that expectation is not in line with reality. The reality is that average (50th percentile) *adults* have mastered 5th or 6th grade math. They may also be able to manage a little algebra (simple "solve for x" type stuff). I'm not making this up. I was a National Merit Scholar, I did the IB diploma, I got As (all As) in everything, including Calculus. I don't know that I would be able to do a lot more than solve for x at the moment. I kind of remember how to factor. Certainly I remember almost nothing of higher algebra, anything but very simple geometry, trig, or calculus. I don't even know that I really understood Calculus when I was taking it, but math in PS is built pretty firmly on computation, so understanding was largely unnecessary. The reality is that for most adults, 5th/6th grade math is about all they need (plus some bits of statistics, etc.) to function in daily life, and if you don't have a STEM career, the rest of it falls away. I don't see this as a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I was a National Merit Scholar, I did the IB diploma, I got As (all As) in everything, including Calculus. I don't know that I would be able to do a lot more than solve for x at the moment. I kind of remember how to factor. Certainly I remember almost nothing of higher algebra, anything but very simple geometry, trig, or calculus. I don't even know that I really understood Calculus when I was taking it, but math in PS is built pretty firmly on computation, so understanding was largely unnecessary. The reality is that for most adults, 5th/6th grade math is about all they need (plus some bits of statistics, etc.) to function in daily life, and if you don't have a STEM career, the rest of it falls away. I don't see this as a bad thing. "Adults" includes recent high school grads. If you look at the MAP norms, you'll see that 11th graders at the 50th percentile score the same as 5th graders at the 88th percentile. This is on a test that contains Algebra I and geometry and that is adaptive, meaning that everyone takes (essentially) the same test. I completely *agree* with you about most adults doing just fine with 5th/6th grade math, BTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 "Adults" includes recent high school grads. If you look at the MAP norms, you'll see that 11th graders at the 50th percentile score the same as 5th graders at the 88th percentile. This is on a test that contains Algebra I and geometry and that is adaptive, meaning that everyone takes (essentially) the same test. I completely *agree* with you about most adults doing just fine with 5th/6th grade math, BTW. Kai, that's something I was curious about, what the elementary MAP contains, as there apparently are also separate MAP tests for algebra, geometry, etc. according to that PDF of the 2011 norms (is that still the lastest norm chart?). My ds11 is maybe 4/5 of the way through algebra 1, and I didn't think any algebra would be on his MAP - maybe it was? I thought the test probably only went through prealgebra? On knowing the math, I forgot it all myself even though I had been good at it back in the day. (I'm still re-learning bits of algebra even now :o ). While most adults may not need higher math, I must say that I was never truly exposed to real math, AoPS-style, and might have taken a different path if I had been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Kai, that's something I was curious about, what the elementary MAP contains, as there apparently are also separate MAP tests for algebra, geometry, etc. according to that PDF of the 2011 norms (is that still the lastest norm chart?). My ds11 is maybe 4/5 of the way through algebra 1, and I didn't think any algebra would be on his MAP - maybe it was? I thought the test probably only went through prealgebra? He had more growth than I expected this year, scoring 271 (I'll delete this later) for spring 5th. While obviously 99th percentile for his grade, according to the chart, it corresponds to 96th percentile for 10th graders, and I haven't been sure how to interpret this, as I assume most 10th graders have had more math than he's had. On knowing the math, I forgot it all myself even though I had been good at it back in the day. (I'm still re-learning bits of algebra even now :o ). While most adults may not need higher math, I must say that I was never truly exposed to real math, AoPS-style, and might have taken a different path if I had been. They have separate listings, but the test is the same. And I wouldn't assume that most 10th graders have had more math than your son. Lots are taking remedial math or Algebra I (and likely not mastering it). Or they never mastered the 5th/6th/7th grade math and it's showing up in the score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 They have separate listings, but the test is the same. And I wouldn't assume that most 10th graders have had more math than your son. Lots are taking remedial math or Algebra I (and likely not mastering it). Or they never mastered the 5th/6th/7th grade math and it's showing up in the score. Thanks! I don't know why I'm so surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 In Colorado, we are required to take a standardized test every other year. This year, my 10-year old son scored 9.1 on the 5th grade ITBS math, meaning he is performing at the same level as the average 9th grader. Here's the catch: This put him in the 95th percentile. Is it really the case that 5 percent of 5th graders are performing more than four grade levels ahead in math? Something doesn't add up. My son just took ITBS today--all the kids in his group finished up all sections with time to spare (often nearly half the time allotted)--and it did not have the feeling of them being done early and unable to answer questions, but rather done and pretty sure they had something close to 100% correct. He said that many questions were very easy like a word problem that boiled down to adding 5 plus 3 is 8, or a problem that boiled down to estimating 1000 + 2000 = 3000. So that 5 % of 5th graders doing as well on that sort of problem as 9th graders does not surprise me. It does not mean that they are doing whatever one would consider a rigorous 9th grade math program (High School Geometry having already finished Algebra 1?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 The reality is that for most adults, 5th/6th grade math is about all they need (plus some bits of statistics, etc.) to function in daily life, and if you don't have a STEM career, the rest of it falls away. I don't see this as a bad thing. Yep. Most adults don't need to read above a 5th grade level either. They certainly don't need to know history. Or write a five-paragraph essay. Or remember the taxonomic ranks, balance a chemical equation, or calculate the trajectory of a ball thrown into the air. Good thing education is about more than just what can be measured on a standardized test, eh? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 So that 5 % of 5th graders doing as well on that sort of problem as 9th graders does not surprise me. It does not mean that they are doing whatever one would consider a rigorous 9th grade math program (High School Geometry having already finished Algebra 1?). Most 9th graders aren't doing what one might consider a rigorous 9th grade math program. Just to point out, scores on the ITBS correlate well to scores on tests like the MAP (adaptive computer test) and the WJ-III (individually administered achievement test). On those tests, particularly on the WJ-III, everyone takes the *same* test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Or another way of looking at it is that I presume that a 5th grader with a 50th %ile in math will be given a grade level equivalent score of 5th grade. If lower than 50th %ile then I would assume they get a grade equivalent score below 5th grade and if above 50th %ile then the grade equivalent will be above 5th grade. At least, as I understand those scores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 It certainly is a good thing if you are an accountant, a merchant or a lender or you want to expand government services. The less people that understand percents, interest, and discounts, the more money you can make from them. Ah, I thought of that stuff as pretty basic math? I don't remember when we learned it, hmm. Re: government service expansion, it doesn't matter how well people understand the math. Paul Krugman has a nobel prize in economics and he still thinks you can just create money out of thin air forever and everything will be okay. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyHandsAreFull Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Re: government service expansion, it doesn't matter how well people understand the math. Paul Krugman has a nobel prize in economics and he still thinks you can just create money out of thin air forever and everything will be okay. ;) LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momx3 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 My DS did well on the concepts and the estimation sections of the math (grade 5) but scored 26th percentile on the computation section because he didn't finish it in the 15 minutes he had. Of the 14 problems he did finish, they were all correct. This lowered his overall math score to 77:( Should I be concerned? This is the second year in a row that he doesn't finish math computation. We practice math facts and time tests, do flash cards and all that stuff. I'm out of ideas:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 My DS did well on the concepts and the estimation sections of the math (grade 5) but scored 26th percentile on the computation section because he didn't finish it in the 15 minutes he had. Of the 14 problems he did finish, they were all correct. This lowered his overall math score to 77:( Should I be concerned? This is the second year in a row that he doesn't finish math computation. We practice math facts and time tests, do flash cards and all that stuff. I'm out of ideas:( Do you have to take the ITBS? We used the SAT10, which is untimed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freesia Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 My DS did well on the concepts and the estimation sections of the math (grade 5) but scored 26th percentile on the computation section because he didn't finish it in the 15 minutes he had. Of the 14 problems he did finish, they were all correct. This lowered his overall math score to 77:( Should I be concerned? This is the second year in a row that he doesn't finish math computation. We practice math facts and time tests, do flash cards and all that stuff. I'm out of ideas:( Are you sure? My ITBS scores have a note saying the computation score is not included in the math subscore. We use Xtra math to work on quick facts. Some kids just don't do well with the time pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Are you sure? My ITBS scores have a note saying the computation score is not included in the math subscore. The company you're taking the ITBS though decided whether to include the computation in the math total. BJU excludes it, or at least they did a few years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 My DS did well on the concepts and the estimation sections of the math (grade 5) but scored 26th percentile on the computation section because he didn't finish it in the 15 minutes he had. Of the 14 problems he did finish, they were all correct. This lowered his overall math score to 77:( Should I be concerned? This is the second year in a row that he doesn't finish math computation. We practice math facts and time tests, do flash cards and all that stuff. I'm out of ideas:( Are you supposed to be able to finish. Only having the top students finishing is a way to ensure that the scores are well spread. If you give too much time too many people get 100% and it messes up the curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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