Dealing with a public school system

[sunnyday]

I know, I know. The vast majority of y'all are here because you did not find that the system worked for your kids. But I feel like I have to explore all the options for mine, and so I'd like to hear from those who stuck it out, at least for a while, advocating for their kids and who perhaps got some accommodations in place.

 

I'm gearing up to write a message to the school principal to evaluate what options are going to be available for us going forward as my son enrolls in second grade next fall and my daughter starts kindergarten, and I just don't have any idea what to expect. My stomach is in knots, frankly, trying to figure out how to strike the balance between being THAT parent and getting my kids what they need. Before third grade I don't even care if I have to keep afterschooling, I love teaching them! I just don't want them getting totally turned off of school because of boredom and unreasonable expectations.

 

One of my reasons for talking to the principal is to see if it's possible they'll offer testing for my kids. Knowing something, anything about their relative strengths would be a huge part of the decision-making process for me.

 

What have you experienced? Bonus points if it was in a small district so busing to another school was not an option.

 

 

[Garga]

Some questions before trying to answer: What are the specific questions you plan on asking the principal? What "option" are you hoping to see? Why do you want them tested?

[Acorn]

My kids are K and 2nd this year.  I have been really pleased with each year but for different reasons with different teachers.  Our state has to "identify" gifted students but doesn't necessarily have to offer anything for them.  Anyways, the school approach us wanting permission for screening tests for my son in 1st grade.  This year, his 2nd grade class had standardized tests that will aid in determining placement into a gifted math class starting with 3rd grade.

 

Every teacher that we've had so far has really wanted to see growth in each student.  Each class has had differential reading groups and challenge assignments.  Say what you will about the morass of standardized testing, I have seen some positive changes in our school.  One area that has had low scores previously was the advancement of gifted students during a year.  The district is clearly attempting to change that.

 

Both K teachers that we've had have accepted my help as a volunteer teacher aide one day a week.  This first one was exceptional in that he taught to the top half of the class, which he told me he had never had a class like the one my son was in.  Half of the class was fluently reading before school started and they progressed through 3 digit addition and subtraction by the end of the year.  The following year started back at square one for academics, and I worried about how my son would take it.  I talked with the teacher and offered to volunteer as needed.  She had me take my son's reading group for a morning each week to work on enrichment activities.  She selected the games and material.  It was great for the other 3 kids, but my son slowly wasn't doing well with me teaching the group.  So, for this year, I am not  volunteering for his class.  His teacher this year has several choices of activities after work is completed.  He is thriving with the independent reading, loving the computer games (that we don't do at home), or bringing material from home. 

[eternalsummer]

My daughter went through K, 1, 2, and part of 3 as a generally acknowledged gifted kid; for the last part of 1 until the end she was in the gifted and talented program.

 

They accommodated us as well as they could; here is what they did:

 

They had a gifted class pull-out, with one or two other kids from the grade, for 2 hours on Friday.

 

She was allowed (although I had to protest this again every year, and repeatedly) to check out books from the library at her reading level instead of grade level.

 

She was allowed to read when she was done with her work; eventually we (temporarily) had a kindle, so she took that to school with whatever books she had on it.

 

Classroom teacher in 4th separated out the top 5-6 kids in the class to work on projects together.  This wasn't accelerated work or above grade level work, but it was at least not hugely remedial.

 

 

That was all they could do.  I didn't press them, though (except for the reading privileges), since I thought it would be kind of unrealistic to ask the teacher to spend specialized effort on my daughter, who was not in any kind of dire straits (esp. as opposed to the kids on the other side of the spectrum, who did need help).

 

They weren't surprised when I took her out.

 

[Acorn]

I've worried about boredom and a loss of thirst for knowledge.  So far, for my kids, this hasn't came up.  They are more extroverted then me, and really thrive on the social scene and special classes (art, music, gym, computers and library).  I think it is part of their personalities because I've never had them express boredom.  For myself, even when I've had mundane assignments at work, I use that time to think and contemplate many subjects.

[EndOfOrdinary]

As someone who worked in PS for quite sometime, the biggest thing to getting what you want is to go in expressing that you understand where the principal and teachers are coming from. I do not mean cave on any of your requests, but more that you see that in most districts they have very, very little power. Many parents think that principals can make grand sweeping decisions, and it just is not true. The power dynamics are actually one of the major reasons I stopped working in the district.

 

Anyway, make a list for yourself of accommodations that you want to ask for. Prioritize them and decide which ones you are willing to bend, let go of, and which are hard limits. When you go in realize it will most likely be a compromise. Let the principal know what you are really concerned about. He/she is most likely concerned about money, test scores and data driven AYP, and keeping the number of parental exceptions to a minimum. All of those things keep the school culture intact. If any of them start to go, the school dynamics are in trouble. You want to make it clear that your child and your requests are not going to threaten any of them. It can also be helpful to have an idea of exactly how you want your needs met (like it appears they were a year or so ago for your son). Some principals have a hard time knowing what you are asking is going to look like in a classroom.

 

Hope that helps"

[Crimson Wife]

It's been my experience that district administrators will write you off as a "pushy parent" unless you already have private IQ testing results in hand. Even if you do have the numbers, they may still give you the run-around in terms of accommodations but at least they won't try to pull the "all kids are gifted" line. All kids may be gifts from God, but I've got objective evidence that my kids are out-of-the-mainstream in terms of their academic needs.

[Arcadia]

 

One of my reasons for talking to the principal is to see if it's possible they'll offer testing for my kids. Knowing something, anything about their relative strengths would be a huge part of the decision-making process for me.

 

What kind of testing are you looking for.  I know some school districts that still have GATE program do CogAT for gifted program screening.

 

How hands on is your school principal?  My assigned school principal is very hands-off and would just ask you to speak to the education specialist (504/IEP) or their teacher.  For accommodations, I just speak to their teacher and see what they are comfortable doing.  The current class size is bigger than 30 per class anyway  So far the only thing I have seen happen is an algebra 1 class for 7th graders because that did not require more funds.  The schools also have EPGY during class time because they are Title 1 schools so EPGY is free to the school. 

[sunnyday]

Thanks for the input so far! That's interesting to consider testing privately before asking anybody for anything. I really was kind of hoping to avoid the expense.
 

Some questions before trying to answer: What are the specific questions you plan on asking the principal? What "option" are you hoping to see? Why do you want them tested?

 

 

Last October, legislation was passed in my state that requires that every district provides Highly Capable students with differentiated instruction from K-12 as part of their mandate to provide all students with access to a basic education. The timeline required that all schools have a written plan in place starting with the 2014-15 school year that outlines what services are offered and how access to them is determined. So my thought was that I would start there: what is being planned, and how can I get my children considered? I figured it would be a good angle, since it means that the school can access extra state funds to provide these services -- I'm not asking for the moon in a cash-strapped district then.

 

Unfortunately when I was researching this legislation today in order to reference it, I found that there has been a hitch in the funding and it's not clear if districts really will be able to access extra state money for Highly Capable kids. :\

 

I'm actually very leery of testing, but I thought that if the school was going to do *something* to get a benchmark on them for Highly Capable placement purposes, then I would also have a little more ammunition on my side for continuing to advocate for them -- or to pull them out entirely. At this point I am feeling way too close to the subject to be able to objectively determine if my kids are gifted enough to need accommodation or just bright and able to adapt to the classroom. I feel like I need a third party to give a little perspective.

 

[MBM]

In the elementary grades, what worked best for our one child who did this was to provide supplemental material for him to work on which we did not expect the teacher to teach or grade.

[sunnyday]

What kind of testing are you looking for.  I know some school districts that still have GATE program do CogAT for gifted program screening.

 

How hands on is your school principal?  My assigned school principal is very hands-off and would just ask you to speak to the education specialist (504/IEP) or their teacher.  For accommodations, I just speak to their teacher and see what they are comfortable doing.  The current class size is bigger than 30 per class anyway  So far the only thing I have seen happen is an algebra 1 class for 7th graders because that did not require more funds.  The schools also have EPGY during class time because they are Title 1 schools so EPGY is free to the school. 

 

That is really good to know! Ours is a Title I school and EPGY would probably be head and shoulders above the incessant IXL practice my poor son is subjected to!

 

I don't know how involved the principal is actually. I do see him roaming the halls, having meetings with the teachers, etc. so my gut impression is that I feel like he'd have an overall vision for the school and be able to give me some idea of what has been done before for accelerated kids like mine? It's a good question though.

 

I don't know what kind of testing! Our neighboring district with a bigger student population uses CogAT and MAT to determine placement in GATE.

[Staceyshoe]

My experience with the public school system was that they needed to see test scores before they were willing to make accommodations or explore ways to meet my son's needs.  Typically, our district doesn't identify gifted students until 3rd grade.  We requested a whole grade acceleration which required testing according to the school's policies.  They were rather nasty on the phone, and I had difficulty getting the appts scheduled.  After the testing, they did a 180.  They typically don't provide differentiation before 3rd grade, but they were willing to discuss whole grade acceleration, subject acceleration, or other possible solutions.  They bent over backwards for us and encouraged us to contact them if something wasn't working.  But they had to meet my son and test him before they became flexible and concerned about meeting needs.  (He was accepted for whole grade acceleration, which we did.  But even if it was approved, we could have decided against it.  Going through that review process got him on the radar of the teacher, the psychologist, the gifted coordinator, and the principal.  We all met together to discuss possible solutions and potential problems.  It was very productive but wouldn't have happened if we hadn't requested the acceleration.)

[kiwik]

I really don't think they believed the tests. They also seem to think that gifted kids should be extrovert leaders.

[sunnyday]

Whole grade skipping isn't something I'd considered for my kids, as they are socially "young" to me, but that's interesting to note that just requesting it helped the administration take your child and your request more seriously.

 

Thanks, all. I've also been reading up about advocacy on the Hoagie's site. It sounds exhausting. I keep finding myself asking, "Why would you even go to those lengths, just homeschool." But homeschool isn't an option for everyone, and there is something to be said for paving the way to make ability-appropriate instruction available to all kids in the public school. If everybody with an accelerated kid bails out, where does that leave the next kids who come up?

 

I'm going to volunteer in my son's class today and I usually get a few minutes to chat with his teacher. I don't like taking her time if I didn't pre-arrange a conference but maybe with a light chat I can feel her out for what she thinks will be the opportunities available for both my kids in the next couple of years.

[SKL]

When my kids were 4, I contacted the public school about early KG.  It took a while to finally get hold of the right person (the gifted coordinator), and once I did, he said I should wait and register my kid for KG at 5 (the next spring) and they would start gifted testing (and decide placement) after KG registration.  In the interim, my kid ended up being accepted to a private daycare KG at 4.  I called in the spring and they said that since she was already in KG, they would accept her in 1st and test her early in the school year.  I didn't pursue it further since I ended up putting them in another private school.  But I thought it was encouraging that they were taking me seriously.

[Crimson Wife]

If everybody with an accelerated kid bails out, where does that leave the next kids who come up?

This is a big problem out here in CA and not just in regards to gifted kids. Pretty much everybody who actually cares about their kids' education and can afford to do so sends their kids to private school or homeschools. It's a vicious cycle and just keeps making the PS worse and worse :-( Unfortunately, I don't see there being the political will on the part of district administrators to implement programs to try to lure back the families who have fled.

[SKL]

Where I live, the local public schools vary with the type of population.  Where there are lots of doctors and scientists, the schools have lots of gifted kids and they put the effort into meeting their needs.  In other areas, the focus is on not having the majority of the class bomb the proficiency exam.  I could see some families moving to take advantage of better public schools within a relatively small urban area.

 

I would give the public school a chance if I didn't have other reasons to go to private school.  But if the school let them drool on themselves all day, they would not be there long, and the school system would know why.  I would feel regretful but not guilty.

[sunnyday]

They are not wanted here. The thinking is that they are not poverty

(although some are) so if enough of the nonpoverty families depart, the district can flip another school to Title 1 status...that means more money for the staff.

 

Your state's educational system sounds like a trial by fire. :(

 

My district is already Title I by the skin of its teeth (34.5% free/reduced-price lunch).

[Arcadia]

 

My district is already Title I by the skin of its teeth (34.5% free/reduced-price lunch).

 

My district is not Title 1 but a handful of schools in the district are Title 1.  The funding depends on the individual school being Title 1, not the district. My kids assigned school is 62% free lunch so the school bus arrives at 7:30am for kids to have free breakfast.

 

  

 If everybody with an accelerated kid bails out, where does that leave the next kids who come up?

 

People with accelerated kids who still have kids in public schools basically use the schools for school band and other socialization while they do intense after schooling.  Most of my neighbors kids are in private schools and quite a few have moved once their kids reach kindergarten age.  My kids assigned school is more than 50% ESL, Performance Improvement school and Title 1.  We are requesting for PI transfer for our kids. 

 

It is also a chicken and egg problem.  When the school district did a survey, my condo complex which has close to 300 units has only 12 kids in public school.  Almost all the school age kids are in private.  For the service apartment next door, out of more than 400 units, only 2 families have kids in public school.  When re-zoning happened, renters in the close to 800 units complex moved to other school districts.  So basically my neighborhood has "bail out" of the school district.

[Reefgazer]

I have one child who is homeschooled (6th grade), and one still in public school (3rd grade; he will be homeschooled next year).  My oldest DD went through public school through 5th grade.  Public school does have it's strengths, but the weaknesses outweighed the strengths for us, so we are bailing.  Keep in mind that all districts are different, and what I experienced might be different from what you experience in your district.  But, they are all under the same testing and budgetary pressures, so maybe they are more alike than not.  Anyway:

Strengths:  They taught my kid to write a top-notch, 5 paragraph essay by the end of 5th; the science was pretty extensive and well-rounded for elementary school, access to all sorts of sports/clubs for low/no cost; they got her advanced enough where she will be able to do pre-algebra in 7th grade.

 

Weaknesses:  Thou shalt not admit (not even in a whisper) that some children are academically more capable than others;  therefore, thou school shalt not provide adequate gifted programs and instead spend all their cash on low-level remediation.  This was the biggest problem of the schools and a major driver of why we left.  Also:  Grammar/spelling/punctuation instruction was poor, no higher-level classic novels were ever read, and behavior problems of troubled children disrupted class.  Lately, all effort and cash has gone to make sure low-level performers pass state tests. 

[Reefgazer]

This is exactly the game my district plays.

They are not wanted here. The thinking is that they are not poverty
(although some are) so if enough of the nonpoverty families depart, the district can flip another school to Title 1 status...that means more money for the staff.

 

[grephanie]

Our experience with my son is that testing changes everything in the PS. He is a very quiet and easy going child and so while he tested well on state testing nobody did anything because he was quiet and didn't get into trouble and so was usually off of his teacher's radar. It wasn't till his 4th grade teacher finally pointed out that his beginning of the year test showed he already could do 5th grade math proficiently, that she suggested that he be tested for gifted. Unfortunately, testing took from fall till spring and he did not get excepted into the gifted program until April, one month before school was done. During the year his teacher was able to give him more difficult worksheets but he wasn't allowed to work ahead until he started the gifted program.

 

At that point we felt like a whole year had been wasted in math and so chose to homeschool the following year. The next year when we homeschooled he was able to skip a whole year in math, after taking one day to explain long division, and passed with flying colors. We were also able to skip ahead in science which is barely covered in our school district till 6th grade. He loves both subjects and can't get enough of them.

 

So my thoughts are, get your kids tested as soon as possible, so that you can use all the resources that your school has available. Also if your child is strong in math you also might want to check out programs that also deal with more advance science.

[sunnyday]

Well, this is a dream come true. (Edit: okay, hyperbole, but it is a huge relief to have a way forward!) I see I mentioned earlier in the thread about the new state legislation about GATE programming, and my uncertainty about whether my district was going to follow through since funding isn't guaranteed.

 

Imagine my surprise when this afternoon I received an email regarding the new program that is starting for the fall, and about the nomination process that opens NOW. They're very fuzzy about the actual services they're going to offer but I don't even care. Anything would be better than an undifferentiated classroom. And they're going to test with CogAT and ITBS as well as with detailed parent and teacher surveys (SIGS). And the form for parents to nominate their kids has a bunch of questions on it that describe my DS to a T. I will be able to hand the form to my DH without saying a word and finally start putting the bug in his ear that our kids might need special education considerations! I am just elated. Though I will feel a little guilty if the result of all this testing is that we leave the school district and the public school world altogether. I'm a little bummed that there doesn't seem to be anything offered for entering kindergarteners, but since DD is clearly more advanced than DS, his results will give us information on both kids and if we stick with the PS we'll be able to advocate for her (and it's only part-time kindy so worst case scenario is we keep afterschooling as we would do regardless).

 

So my thoughts are, get your kids tested as soon as possible, so that you can use all the resources that your school has available. Also if your child is strong in math you also might want to check out programs that also deal with more advance science.

 

Could you explain what you mean by these programs?

[BusyMom5]

Hi, this is my first post in this forum ;)  My oldest was tested as 'gifted' in K or 1st, and put into the Gifted program.  She just finished 5th, and we plan to HS next year.  I have found that it varies by teacher.  In K, I don't think she really learned anything academically, but she did need the social growth and I felt that was just as important, maybe even moreso than the academics at that age.  In 1st her teacher gave her a different spelling list, and let her read whatever interested her.  In 2nd the teacher also gave her a different spelling list, and she gave DD advanced work and reading, and let her bring in books she wanted to read.  In 3rd I felt like that teacher was a dud.  She spent 1/2 the day in Poptropica b/c each child had their own computer.  I had high hopes, but it wasn't a good year.  DD was upset that it was the first year for formal science and they did like 4 units all year long, and it was stuff she already knew.  4th Grade I loved her teacher!  She had a way of letting DD work in a slightly higher level, the assignments were such that DD could work at her level, but still doing what the other kids were doing.  5th grade has been pretty good in some ways.  She has finally had the first excellent science teacher (science is my DDs favorite subject).  IMO and IME teacher just can't meet the needs of gifted students.  They have too many other students who need them more.  I think they love my DD, and they love to challenge her, but they just can't focus on that. 

 

In all this time, DD is pulled out for Gifted class once per week.  I found the class not really that good.  They didn't do any neat projects like I thought they would.  They usually play strategy games (which is fine and fun), but they didn't delve deeply into any topics.  I think this is what has been missing in school.  They cut Gifted next year, and classroom teachers are supposed to give them harder work.  This makes me feel like no one understands what it means to have a gifted kid.  It's not a matter of harder work, it's a matter of interesting and in depth learning, at least for my DD.

 

I have had to do all sorts of tricks to get the librarian to allow my DD books from the school library.  I don't even want to get into it, but since 2nd grade I have to write a note saying DD can get X grade books.  She tried to talk me out of it several times and give me reasons why allowing kids to get just any book off the shelf is a bad idea- anarchy!  I have to re-write this note yearly. 

 

I think it was in 2nd grade that I gave up, and started going to a big library an hour away weekly to get DD library books to supplement her.  I've been supplementing her science and history this entire time.  What she learns in school barely scrapes the surface, and she needs more context.  I don't know if it's the grade level, or the trend towards only teaching exactly what is on the tests, but there is no depth to any teaching in science.  The 4th grade teacher was by far the best!  She really got the kids into science and history in neat way, and gave lots of interesting details, which is what my DD needs.  DD reads about 10 chapter books per week for fun.  She also likes to research her own science topics or delve deeper into what they are learning at school.  I just have her make me a list, and get what she's interested in.  The 5th grade science teacher has been really great, too!  This was the first year they actually finished the entire science book.  IT's also the only year they take the science standardized test ;) 

 

In short, if you want your kid in PS, I think you should just know ahead of time that this will not be the place where your child will learn the most academically.  I have always known this, and we have toyed w/ the idea of HSing since the beginning.  I have always known she is light-years ahead of her peers in a lot of ways, but she's also just a kid, and her social skills are not ahead at all.  She's a great kid!  She is motivated and since there is no motivation in school, she's made her own goals to meet each year.  She sometimes has a hard time understanding why some kids don't make the same connections she does.  I think PS has been a good choice in some ways, and a poor choice in others.  I have made the decision each year to just provide her with what else she needs at home, but send her to PS b/c it's fun.  She is really excited to HS next year, and the main reason why is because she will finally be able to do what she wants when she wants, to the depth she wants.  In PS right now there is a strong push to help the weaker, and let the stronger just plug along by themselves, as long as they meet grade-level requirements.  I am just tired of that.    

[sunnyday]

Hi and welcome! Thanks for your perspective, it sounds like we're dealing with something similar for the early elementary years. We do public school mostly because it's fun, and I'm content to pick up the slack academically. Unfortunately it's less and less fun and we have less and less time and energy to do interesting stuff afterschool. I'm so tired of telling my boy to get his nose out of a book or stop reading about astronomy so he can go to school and daydream through class and cry through recess and never do any math or reading that's at a level that engages him. I'm hoping that whatever they concoct with this new gifted program will add some fun back in (both from the engagement and from the exposure to other high-achieving kiddos.) Or that the testing convinces us to keep both kids home after all. :o

 

Thanks again.

[Erin]

But homeschool isn't an option for everyone, and there is something to be said for paving the way to make ability-appropriate instruction available to all kids in the public school. If everybody with an accelerated kid bails out, where does that leave the next kids who come up?

 

Honestly, I used to say something VERY similar.  More importantly, I'm a school teacher, so am professionally vested in school excellence as well. 

We do a lot of after/summer schooling with our daughter.

 

However, after too many years of watching our son struggle under the weight of the system, I decided it's not worth it.  His dad and I did a lot of thinking and, while keeping him in, and continuing to advocate, might make things easier for some kid down the road, what has it accomplished for MINE?  

Not much, unfortunately.  

He was in very real danger of slipping through the cracks and I refuse to let that happen.  

 

We decided this is the kid we're going to be dealing with for the rest of his life.  Sure, he'll be done with "school" in 5-10 years, but even after that, he'll be dealing with the effects of his school years.  

 

We're giving him the best shot we can.

[kiwik]

Supporting the school system is great but feeling as though your needs come behind everyone else's is not good for the child's future mental health.