Unschooling: is it all or nothing? how long does it take to know?

[IsabelC]

We are considering withdrawing the girls from school next year, so our educational approach is being re-examined. 

 

I have been a bit of an unschooler wannabe for a long time. I find the general philosophy of removing unnecessary restrictions on children's learning sits well with my own beliefs. However, every time we have attempted to dip our toes into the unschooling waters, the results send me running for my copy of TWTM and madly scheduling subjects.  :willy_nilly:   Likewise, I love the idea of  TWTM style education, but it just. dosn't. work. for at least two of my children (I could see it working with #3, if I didn't have the others to look after at the same time). So we have ended up moving reasonably frequently between 'classically inspired unschooling' and 'unschooling inspired classical' (here I'm using the word classical synonymously with TWTM-style, although obviously there are other neo-classical styles). It has worked, more or less, but I'm still not 100% sure we're on the right path. (Perhaps it's not even possible to be 100% certain?) 

 

Now, I have heard and read many times that some families do things like "we use a math and phonics curriculum, but unschool everything else". I have also met unschoolers who are derisive of this idea, claiming that you either unschool or you don't, and that the former families really mean that they are 'relaxed' on those subjects. 

 

I really don't want to get into what the labels mean or start on making judgements about whether people are doing what they say they're doing. What people choose to call themselves isn't any more my business than how they decide to educate their children. But as I have reread some of the unschooling literature, I'm wondering whether unschooling may essentially be an 'all or nothing' proposition. Perhaps you need to completely commit to the idea, and wait patiently for the deschooling (or dehomeschooling) process, before the full benefits become apparent. Maybe trying to unschool a little bit is like trying to do half a somersault and landing on your head?

 

So when I stop doing any formal learning for a while and my child does nothing that can remotely be considered educational, that's deschooling, right? But how long should I wait before deciding that it isn't going to work? (I mean work, in the sense of him doing something interesting or constructive, not as in he decides he loves math workbooks.) Several people have told me that unschooling can work for any child, including special needs children. According to them, the only reason unschooling doesn't work for us it that we haven't given it enough of a go. If I can just let him play Candy Crush all day for a few weeks, he'll move on when he's ready.

 

But my son  has a history of not doing what the experts (and non-experts) say he will. "Be patient and he will toilet train when he is ready," we were told. Um, nope. He didn't. It took hard work from he was 18 months until he was 10 and he's still only maybe 95% reliable. "He'll socialize more soon. He's just a little shy / a slow bloomer." Nope. He's autistic. Again, he's 10 and still doesn't socialize normally. "Just put him into bed firmly, and if he comes out, put him back. He might come out a few times the first night." Well, yes. If a few times means over 200 times, walking out in his sleep until he was physically incapable of getting up anymore.  :closedeyes:  (EDITED TO CLARIFY -  that was when he was two. He sleeps happily and well most of the time now, thank goodness.) And I could go on. So pardon me if I'm a bit doubtful about the claim that he'll love unschooling and learn heaps if we are patient and let him deschool. 

 

Anyway, thank you if you have read this far  :hurray:

 

I would really appreciate hearing from those of you who either have unschooling experience or who think unschooling can be a good choice (for at least some kids). How do you tell whether it's going to work, how long would you expect this to take, and does successful unschooling require a total commitment to unschooling? 

 

 

 

[Ellie]

We are considering withdrawing the girls from school next year, so our educational approach is being re-examined. 

 

I have been a bit of an unschooler wannabe for a long time. I find the general philosophy of removing unnecessary restrictions on children's learning sits well with my own beliefs. However, every time we have attempted to dip our toes into the unschooling waters, the results send me running for my copy of TWTM and madly scheduling subjects.  :willy_nilly:   Likewise, I love the idea of  TWTM style education, but it just. dosn't. work. for at least two of my children (I could see it working with #3, if I didn't have the others to look after at the same time). So we have ended up moving reasonably frequently between 'classically inspired unschooling' and 'unschooling inspired classical' (here I'm using the word classical synonymously with TWTM-style, although obviously there are other neo-classical styles). It has worked, more or less, but I'm still not 100% sure we're on the right path. (Perhaps it's not even possible to be 100% certain?) 

 

Now, I have heard and read many times that some families do things like "we use a math and phonics curriculum, but unschool everything else". I have also met unschoolers who are derisive of this idea, claiming that you either unschool or you don't, and that the former families really mean that they are 'relaxed' on those subjects. 

 

I really don't want to get into what the labels mean or start on making judgements about whether people are doing what they say they're doing. What people choose to call themselves isn't any more my business than how they decide to educate their children. But as I have reread some of the unschooling literature, I'm wondering whether unschooling may essentially be an 'all or nothing' proposition. Perhaps you need to completely commit to the idea, and wait patiently for the deschooling (or dehomeschooling) process, before the full benefits become apparent. Maybe trying to unschool a little bit is like trying to do half a somersault and landing on your head?

 

So when I stop doing any formal learning for a while and my child does nothing that can remotely be considered educational, that's deschooling, right? But how long should I wait before deciding that it isn't going to work? (I mean work, in the sense of him doing something interesting or constructive, not as in he decides he loves math workbooks.) Several people have told me that unschooling can work for any child, including special needs children. According to them, the only reason unschooling doesn't work for us it that we haven't given it enough of a go. If I can just let him play Candy Crush all day for a few weeks, he'll move on when he's ready.

 

But my son  has a history of not doing what the experts (and non-experts) say he will. "Be patient and he will toilet train when he is ready," we were told. Um, nope. He didn't. It took hard work from he was 18 months until he was 10 and he's still only may 95% reliable. "He'll socialize more soon. He's just a little shy / a slow bloomer." Nope. He's autistic. Again, he's 10 and still doesn't socialize normally. "Just put him into bed firmly, and if he comes out, put him back. He might come out a few times the first night." Well, yes. If a few times means over 200 times, walking out in his sleep until he was physically incapable of getting up anymore.  :closedeyes:  And I could go on. So pardon me if I'm a bit doubtful about the claim that he'll love unschooling and learn heaps if we are patient and let him deschool. 

 

Anyway, thank you if you have read this far  :hurray:

 

I would really appreciate hearing from those of you who either have unschooling experience or who think unschooling can be a good choice (for at least some kids). How do you tell whether it's going to work, how long would you expect this to take, and does successful unschooling require a total commitment to unschooling? 

 

It's hard to come up concrete answers for stuff like this. :-)

 

In my mind, "deschooling" is the period of time following the withdrawal of children from campus-based schools.

 

Yes, all children can unschool...but not all parents can. :-)

 

If you're going to unschool, you have to believe (or be willing to be converted) that *everything* is educational, even if it doesn't look "interesting or constructive" to *you*.

 

Your ds has special needs that many of us don't have to deal with. :grouphug: I'm not sure what I would do in your place. But perhaps it would be helpful for you to read John Holt--all of his works--to get a better idea of what unschooling really is. The main place I would disagree with Holt is in parenting. I think that children *do* need direct instruction and correction in order to grow up such that they can get along with others in society. :-) I think it is appropriate to set bedtimes, and require good table manners, and teach children that there are some ways of addressing adults that are appropriate and some ways that are not. However, Holt's books forever changed my way of looking at learning; perhaps they help you.

[eternalsummer]

I know nothing about unschooling, but I can say that there are definitely some kids for which some things just will never come naturally.  I guess you'd have to decide which things you are absolutely committed to having them do/learn (versus which things you are comfortable leaving up to their interest/need).  Some of it is developmental levels, and if your kid is not completely normal (and what kid is, really) in some ways, his/her developmental level for a certain thing might not correlate with age.

 

For example, I have never yet met a baby who was happy to be left in a crib in a room by himself.  This makes sense; evolution has got to favor the helpless infant who insists on being by mother's protective side until he's capable of defending himself from (or at least escaping) a bear, or whatever.  So insisting that a baby will just figure out how to put himself to sleep at 1, or 2, or 3, is kind of silly - sure, he might catch on, but why fight nature?

 

Now, if a kid is having the same problem at 10, you might say, well, he's not at the same developmental level as his age-mates, and he's not going to complete this task (call it sleeping independence) on his own, because his body/mind are never going to tell him it's okay.  And then maybe you want to either force the issue, and teach him some overt coping mechanisms, etc., or figure out how to work around it, or whatever.

 

I can see the same thing with unschooling - there have got to be some kids who are just never going to develop certain traits/learn certain things without a good deal of encouragement or even outright coercion,  Say you have a kid who is addicted to video games - hey, there are *adults* who are addicted to video games, and a ton of them who are addicted to the internet!  This is not an education issue, it's a parenting issue (imo) - we don't unschool, per se, but we restrict tv use by not having a tv, and video game use by not having a video game player, and tablet use by not having a tablet, and cell phone use by not having smartphones, and computer/internet use by not having computers that are available to kids except for little unpredictable bits of the day.

[Corraleno]

I don't buy the idea that all-or-nothing unschooling will work for every kid, or that every kid who is allowed to do nothing but play video games for weeks on end will eventually get tired of it and move on. I have seen too many cases where that never happened. In fact, DS's best friend was "unschooled" for a year and he literally did nothing but play video games for the entire year — at which point his parents gave up and put him back in school. Which was too bad, because he's a brilliant kid and IMHO could have really benefited from homeschooling, had his parents taken less of an all-or-nothing approach.

 

When I decided to go with a more relaxed, interest-led approach, one of the first things I did was get rid of all the videogames. We never watched a lot of TV anyway, other than documentaries, so that wasn't an issue. I made sure we had lots of books, art supplies, and "maker" materials available, as well as plenty of resources for nature study (microscope, loupes, field guides, binoculars, plastic bins and tanks for critters we caught, etc.). We spent lots of time walking, talking, drawing, playing, visiting museums, going to the zoo, and generally getting out & about, in addition to read alouds, documentaries, and even some "schooly" stuff like math. The point was to make learning the most interesting, stimulating, and enjoyable activity available to them. Had I just stopped all "school work," allowed unlimited gaming, and not provided interesting alternatives, I suspect that DS may have ended up very much like his best friend, playing videogames all day, every day, and whining about being bored any time he wasn't in front of a screen — because that's exactly what he was doing with every minute of his spare time before I pulled him out of school.

 

I'm sure some people will insist that if I just gave it more time, he would eventually have come around and would have gotten bored of gaming, and would have looked for more productive things to do, but having seen kids where that did not happen, I wasn't willing to risk it. And there was really no need to take that risk, since the approach I did take not only worked, it exceeded my wildest expectations, and it changed his attitude quickly and permanently. 

 

 

[abba12]

You know, I'm one of those people who thinks kids will, given freedom, learn moderation in video games. But it doesn't just happen. They need teaching and guidance, they need to be told why they shouldn't waste all their time on games and be aware of the addictive nature and all of that. And just because I don't set firm limits on screen time doesn't mean there aren't consequences for misuse. 12 hours straight of minecraft on a regular basis is misuse.

 

And just because you choose to unschool doesn't mean you choose to allow your child to do whatever they want without limit. If your kid spends all day on the computer during the first week of unschooling, make a rule for no screens until 5pm or something until they can demonstrate responsible use

 

I find it terribly sad that among all these threads on unschooling the common theme seems to be dozens of video game addicted children. And the children are being blamed instead of the games themselves or the parents who's job it is to teach self discipline and wise choices. I am not anti screens by any means, as a teenager I did video game reviews for a large company, I was qualified as a computer programmer, my husband is a huge tech geek, and many of our family members are involved in technology based fields.

 

Maybe your kids aren't all unmotivated and lacking in curiosity. Maybe they aren't the problem. Maybe the games are the problem, or maybe they have never been taught how to use them responsibly and wisely with guidance about priorities and time management. The fact there are so many children who all seem to have this single issue and have been labelled a certain way because of it really upsets me.

 

I know plenty of kids and adults who manage to enjoy computer games in the context of a healthy lifestyle full of learning and experiences. But if your child truly would spend 12 hours a day every day on front of screens maybe your families do need to completely unplug and get rid of the lot of it. I think some of you would be suprised by the interests and hobbies your kids would find after they detoxed from the passive, instantly gratifying screens. Then they can be reintroduced, gradually, with guidance.

 

I'm sorry if I offend people and I am not directing this specifically at the op but, rather, at all the posters and lurkers. But it makes me really upset to see so many children who apparently 'need' these games and have formed a reliance on them. And worse, instead of changing it, we as a society are simply accepting this obsessive behaviour as normal, and artificially limiting the number of hours they have and ignoring the much deeper issues of reliance, instant gratification vs deeper pursuits, and obsessive behaviours, apparently to the exclusion of many other things.

 

And I'm not even pro-unschooling!

[JennW in SoCal]

The best thing you can do for yourself is to forget all the homeschooling labels and instead figure out your reasons and goals for homeschooling, and then figure out how to best achieve those goals with your children.  Sounds simplistic, but I did write out my homeschool philosophy at one point and I kept it in my planner/journal to refer to when things got confusing or tough.  

 

I considered myself a "classical unschooler", and I had one very outside the box kid who had some learning challenges and who never did what was "expected" either.  The classical part was the skills training -- math, spelling, writing -- first  it was handwriting with copy work, then narrations and eventually essays, some grammar and during middle school and high school there was logic.  Everything else I considered content, and it was almost entirely unschooled through the elementary years. A better term might be "interest led" as I harnessed my kid's interests all the way through high school as a means of exposing them to literature, history and science.  

 

I do believe learning happens all the time.  I did believe it was important to provide a rich environment for raising my kids that was filled with books and interesting activities.  But I also know that to mastering skills can require a certain amount of drudgery, and not every single kid is going to put the work into math and writing.  And as to knowing whether something is working?  Well, with the skills you just see improvement over time -- a little bit each day is sometimes all that is needed. You can tell if unschooling is working if your kids are happily engaged in whatever it is that interests them.  Are they asking for more books or specific tools or kits?  Are they bubbling with excitement when they talk with you about their projects or interests or reading?  

 

Do what feels right for your family, keep an eye on the end result -- the young adult you want to set loose in the world, and adjust as needed.

[justamouse]

I totally chicken out at the thought of unschooling. Why? Because I think that to do it properly, it's harder than a classical education. And I know how hard that is. 

But you have to do what is right for YOUR family. 

[alef]

The best thing you can do for yourself is to forget all the homeschooling labels and instead figure out your reasons and goals for homeschooling, and then figure out how to best achieve those goals with your children. Sounds simplistic, but I did write out my homeschool philosophy at one point and I kept it in my planner/journal to refer to when things got confusing

 

[...]

 

Do what feels right for your family, keep an eye on the end result -- the young adult you want to set loose in the world, and adjust as needed.

This was an excellent post. Don't get caught up in labels or in trying to imitate someone else's philosophy or educational path. Read, consider, and discuss a variety of philosophies and experiences, and take from them what feels right for your family.

 

I have some unschoolish and interest led leanings, but there are also parent directed elements in my homeschool. There are periods of time when we are more structured, and times when there is very little directed structure in my children's education. Sometimes you just have to try different things until you find something that works, then you can run with it until it stops working and you know it's time to try something different.

[Free]

As an ex unschooler I think it is all or nothing. You can't selectively unschool.

 

But honestly, I do not understand this. Even under what is called "unschooling" there are a variety of philosophies. Unschooling itself applies to educational methodology, but many also extend unschooling to their entire parenting philosophy. I think it is incorrect to equate unschooling with just radical unschooling.

 

And if we take unschooling as a philosophy as applied to one's education, it simply means that one's education does not need to follow a script or a program. Education can take be tailored to your personality and interests.

 

Unschooling does not mean that children should be allowed to do whatever they want, whenever they want, nor does it mean not requiring an education. I think this kind of view that has become popular just turns people off from exploring unschooling as a valid educational methodology.

[Night Elf]

I also agree you should write down your goals and then decide what educational methodology would work to achieve them. I was a radical unschooler for a few years and my parenting is still that way, but at that time, the only goal I had for my kids was to expose them to as much stuff as possible and to have fun doing it. I didn't use anything schooly, at least not in a way it was designed to be used. To me, unschooling means not expecting your child to want to learn school stuff in a schooly way. If I was to unschool one subject, for example math, I wouldn't expect my child to pick up anything mathy. I'd have some math toys mixed in with all the rest of the toys but wouldn't expect them to be used in the way they were designed. It's interest led learning if you allow your child to pick the concepts he wants to learn. It's relaxed schooling if you don't have a strict schedule, but just work on as much or as little as you want each day. At least this is what I've picked up in all the years I've homeschooled.

 

I never really thought about whether or not unschooling was working because it was a lifestyle for us, not something we were trying to achieve. My kids were happy and healthy and loved to play, but rarely did it look anything like school. I'll also say it was difficult sometimes because I felt the need to always be strewing stuff in their path so they'd be exposed to all sorts of things. I would get disappointed if they didn't want to pursue something I found interesting, but that wasn't what unschooling was about so I dealt with my issue on my own.

[a27mom]

"When pressed, I define unschooling as allowing children as much freedom to learn in the world, as their parents can comfortably bear."

 

I believe this is a quote from John Holt, the person who created the term "unschooling".

 

So no I don't think it is an all or nothing thing. With a nebulous term like unschooling I think the person who coined the term should get the final say.

 

I do see where being very rigid in skill subjects, but saying you unschool content, doesn't always lend itself to good content education. rigid forced structure in one area, can dampen motivation overall in some students.

 

However, my daughter stated many times that she wants to be able to read, and there is a reading curriculum that I think will help her meet her goal more quickly, so we use that reading curriculum on a regular basis. This still fits the original concept of unschooling. My kids both request to do math worksheets, so we have a math curriculum we use on a regular basis. (Though I do modify it a lot). This still fits the ordinal concept of unschooling. My dh isn't super comfortable with the homeschooling thing in general, so we make sure to do some math and LA most days, so daddy doesn't worry that they aren't learning anything. That would also fit the original concept of unschooling.

 

The goal is educational freedom, self initiation and self motivation. What we can comfortably bear is not quite total educational freedom.

 

Now, John Holt would probably be very much in favor of what some call "radical unschooling". But that wasn't the original intent of the term. And he was pretty clear that he felt some educational freedom was better than no educational freedom. Granted he preferred the far "freedom" end of the unschooling continuum, but I get the impression from his writings that just getting people on the continuum was a good thing. This is what I have gleaned from reading a lot of his stuff anyway.

[Ellie]

But honestly, I do not understand this. Even under what is called "unschooling" there are a variety of philosophies. Unschooling itself applies to educational methodology, but many also extend unschooling to their entire parenting philosophy. I think it is incorrect to equate unschooling with just radical unschooling.

 

And if we take unschooling as a philosophy as applied to one's education, it simply means that one's education does not need to follow a script or a program. Education can take be tailored to your personality and interests.

 

Unschooling does not mean that children should be allowed to do whatever they want, whenever they want, nor does it mean not requiring an education. I think this kind of view that has become popular just turns people off from exploring unschooling as a valid educational methodology.

 

See, I don't think it's necessary to quantify unschooling by adding "radical" to the term. You either unschool or you don't. And I wouldn't say that unschooling is a "methodology." It is how you think about learning.

 

ITA, though, that unschooling doesn't have to mean unparenting. :-)

[Corraleno]

See, I don't think it's necessary to quantify unschooling by adding "radical" to the term. You either unschool or you don't. And I wouldn't say that unschooling is a "methodology." It is how you think about learning.

 

If the line between unschooling and not-unschooling is so clear and discrete and inflexible, I would love to know where that line is. What is the definition of "unschooling" that would enable a parent to know absolutely positively which side of the line they're on? 

 

And the corollary question is: who came up with this definition, and do 100% of unschoolers agree with it 100%?

 

Given the enormous range and variety in the way people define "classical education," I find it surprising that people think an even more fluid and nebulous concept like "unschooling" has a clear, black-&-white definition that everyone can agree to.

[Ellie]

If the line between unschooling and not-unschooling is so clear and discrete and inflexible, I would love to know where that line is. What is the definition of "unschooling" that would enable a parent to know absolutely positively which side of the line they're on? 

 

And the corollary question is: who came up with this definition, and do 100% of unschoolers agree with it 100%?

 

Given the enormous range and variety in the way people define "classical education," I find it surprising that people think an even more fluid and nebulous concept like "unschooling" has a clear, black-&-white definition that everyone can agree to.

 

I don't think I said that there was a line between unschooling and not-unschooling. :huh: 

 

John Holt coined the term "unschooling." Mostly it meant learning that didn't look anything like school, where the adults trusted their children to learn what the children intuitively thought they needed to learn. It is living life and inviting children to participate. And within the context of unschooling, there will naturally be a wide range of what that looks like. It is less likely to look like parents requiring their children to learn specific things even if the learning is less structured.

[albeto.]

So when I stop doing any formal learning for a while and my child does nothing that can remotely be considered educational, that's deschooling, right? But how long should I wait before deciding that it isn't going to work? (I mean work, in the sense of him doing something interesting or constructive, not as in he decides he loves math workbooks.) Several people have told me that unschooling can work for any child, including special needs children. According to them, the only reason unschooling doesn't work for us it that we haven't given it enough of a go. If I can just let him play Candy Crush all day for a few weeks, he'll move on when he's ready.

 

The rule of thumb I'd heard was give it one month for each year of formal education - your formal education. So if you've graduated from high school, that would be 12 months of kickin' back and redefining your family dynamic. One more if you went to kindergarten. One for each year of college. Can you hold out a year and expect nothing? No hints, subtle manipulation to get your kids interested in some project that could translate to a career?

 

Not so easy, is it?

 

;-)

 

My understand, and therefore application of unschooling, is that it's not about education but about relationship. When we stopped doing formal school expectations, I worked at redefining our relationship. I was the kids' friend, mentor, supporter, cheerleader, and trainee (as they learned to mentor me - omg how awesome and cute was that when they were young). In this way, I understand unschooling to be all or nothing. For us that translated to me not requiring academic drills or household chores, as they seemed arbitrarily imposed by the person with control (through punishment or rewards - but don't worry, our kids are not brats). 

 

But my son  has a history of not doing what the experts (and non-experts) say he will. "Be patient and he will toilet train when he is ready," we were told. Um, nope. He didn't. It took hard work from he was 18 months until he was 10 and he's still only maybe 95% reliable. "He'll socialize more soon. He's just a little shy / a slow bloomer." Nope. He's autistic. Again, he's 10 and still doesn't socialize normally. "Just put him into bed firmly, and if he comes out, put him back. He might come out a few times the first night." Well, yes. If a few times means over 200 times, walking out in his sleep until he was physically incapable of getting up anymore.  :closedeyes:  (EDITED TO CLARIFY -  that was when he was two. He sleeps happily and well most of the time now, thank goodness.) And I could go on. So pardon me if I'm a bit doubtful about the claim that he'll love unschooling and learn heaps if we are patient and let him deschool.

 

I have a child who required a lot of hands-on attention for social and executive functioning skills as well. We didn't unschool until he was about 13, and then I had no choice as he simply refused to comply any more. Yes, I tried everything. Until he was about 10, though, we were heavily involved in therapy for the very skills you're talking about - the ones he didn't pick up naturally along the way, the ones he needs as an adult. There are other unschoolers with kids with special needs and you might find some resources from them. In the mean time, I'd look into things like RDI therapy which is a social therapy that works kinda inside out. Rather than teaching and drilling social skills, "he initial goal is to build a 'guided participation' relationship between parents and child, with the child as a 'cognitive apprentice.'" Essentially, they learn to be flexible. None of these things I would call "unschooling," but if I had a child with a different physical disability, I wouldn't avoid physical therapy just because they don't spontaneously choose to go to the therapist, kwim? In a more natural setting, we used self-identity resources like the workbook, Asperger's What Does It Mean To Me, and pro-active tools like Carol Gray's "comic strip conversations", Jeanie McAffie's suggestions through her book Navigating the Social World, especially things like an emotion thermometer, and eventually the organizational tools in R.O.P.E.S. to learn to identify, analyse, predict, and prepare for these many variables. 

 

I would really appreciate hearing from those of you who either have unschooling experience or who think unschooling can be a good choice (for at least some kids). How do you tell whether it's going to work, how long would you expect this to take, and does successful unschooling require a total commitment to unschooling?

 

The reason, I think, for the one month per education rule of thumb is to give the parent the time to deconstruct what they'd been conditioned to think education is, how learning works, and what prepares a child for independent, self-sufficient life as an adult. When my daughter came home from school and home schooling no longer worked, we found ourselves watching her interests and trying to encourage her to develop those interests into a career. Noob mistake, I'm sure. She liked to watch cake wars, or some show like that. She wanted to try decorating cakes, so we signed her up for a Michael's cake decorating class, we got her a few tools, we eat a lot of cakes in the process. My husband and his mother kept interjecting comments about how she could be a baker. I suggested she could get an internship at a local bakery in a couple years. Cooking school, professional bakers, the whole thing. Poor girl, I'm sure she felt all the wind taken out of her sale. This was no longer fun because she had a group of adults trying to convince her to make this into a career. She was maybe 12, lol!

 

When I noticed this was happening, I decided to stop and see what would happen. She moved on to Guitar Hero. She played, I played with her. She really enjoyed the Beatles. She got tired of playing the same songs again and again (but not before she had set a goal to play a hard song on the hardest level and then do it). She read about the Beatles. She read about Led Zeppelin. We talked about the '60's and '70's, the Vietnam War, the era of cultural change between generations, and things that came up as they came up. She learned to play mandolin. She learned she really like certain photographs of the musicians, and started looking at photos, and art. None of these things in and of themselves would be identified as future careers, at least I couldn't think of them that way, but what I saw in her was more important to me. She had developed a confidence that was squelched in b&m school. When she first came home, she couldn't be out of my sight. I recall the first day she was around the corner and out of my sight at our little local grocery store. I was thrilled! Soon that confidence grew, and she biked downtown the used record shop and looked at albums. Her musical tastes have evolved, but more importantly I think, her confidence grew. She had experienced setting goals for herself (like playing the hardest song on the hardest level), she had experienced discovering what really interested her (another skill suppressed by years of learning to sit quietly and follow directions), and she had the time to delve into her love of reading which has since given her quite a travel bug, in addition to an interest in history and international cultures. She decided to enroll in the local project-based charter school, figured out which subjects she needed to catch up in (math), and which one's she's good at (language arts, and visual arts).

 

Looking back I can see the progression from her earlier interests (the Beatles) to her current interests (social justice, international relationships, women's studies and also biology - she gets that from her dad, the same dad with whom she enjoyed watching cooking shows many evenings after work). At the time I couldn't predict this of course, but I could slowly but surely see the development in her character. Confidence is an underrated skill in a lot of ways, and hers had held her back in such a way I was worried for her future ability to see and avoid destructive peer-pressure, among other fears. This is no longer a worry of mine at all, as she's an ethically minded, strongly grounded, responsible, respectful, compassionate young lady. But she doesn't have autism, so she doesn't share the kinds of struggles your son likely has.She had other struggles, and an unschooling environment allowed her to address them in a place of safety and support. For her, requiring her to do academic skills would have been detrimental to meeting her more important needs (independence, identifying and addressing problems, building confidence through trial and error). I can't say this is a universal "truth" to unschooling that would work for your child. Instead, I would suggest you keep learning about unschooling, find people who unschool their kids on the spectrum, and slowly gravitate towards the kind of ideal that allows you to be comfortable, increasingly incorporating unschooling ideas as you think they would benefit your family.

[albeto.]

See, I don't think it's necessary to quantify unschooling by adding "radical" to the term. You either unschool or you don't. And I wouldn't say that unschooling is a "methodology." It is how you think about learning.

When I got my feet wet with this ideology, I understood the modifier "radical" to explain that the same philosophy applied with regard to education was also applied with regard to non-academic skills, such as social skills. In the same way I don't expect my kids to do math drills every morning at the table and yet expect them to learn and understand math concepts naturally, I don't expect them to unload the dishwasher or do other household chores and yet expect them to learn and understand home organization concept naturally. 

 

ITA, though, that unschooling doesn't have to mean unparenting. :-)

 

Pet peeve alert, but if it doesn't have to mean "unparenting," I find it curious (irritating?) that nevertheless, this correlation (which supposedly doesn't exist) is often brought up. This isn't just you, Ellie, I notice this all the time. It's a pet peeve of mine and I hope you can understand that my taking the opportunity to air my grievances under the festivus pole here isn't directed towards you, personally. It's not even directed at any person, but the idea itself. The reason it irritates me is because on the one hand, if the correlation doesn't exist, then why is it always offered as a comforting piece of information? The other reason it bothers me is that it sounds elitist. Just like all kids aren't equally capable of being star students or wonderful athletes, not all adults have the same skills needed to be capable parents. Some really are negligent, some abusively and dangerously so. But this has nothing to do with educational philosophies. I find it condescending to suggest some parents simply don't "parent" (as if that's a verb with any definable meaning) just because they lack the skills that most of us have. If they are negligent, it's a different game altogether. I know, here's an analogy. What if every time people talked about Christians, they followed up with a polite little comment to offer comfort because people need not worry - not all Christians are like Westboro Baptists. 

[ktgrok]

I think unschooling can work, maybe, in the right environment. People naturally want to learn, and if there are materials around, and the child is supported and encouraged, sure. But...when you add in candy crush and television and such the environment is no longer natural, so you can't expect the natural learning instinct to shine through. IF there are no brain sucking addictive options like video games and mindless television, yes, maybe. Maybe. 

 

But I'm one of those people that believes in 'sort of" unschooling. Like...we do formal math and writing, but for years I just told him "do something sciencey" a few times a week,a nd called that science. 

[HS Mom in NC]

I've spent several years in a huge unschooling group (my daughter had several friends in that group) and met a few dozen different unschoolers.  No, it's not all or nothing.  While there are some unschoolers who think it is, there are plenty of unschoolers who think you can do more structured, parent driven learning in subjects like phonics and math so a child can pursue more advanced interests in subjects dependent on math and reading earlier in their lives.

 

Also, it depends which camp you're in when it comes to unschooling.  There are people out there who define unschooling as intrest driven learning.  Some will say anything the parent does beyond driving a child places and purchasing anything the child is interested in is not intrest driven unschooling.  Others say a parent can provide help in some ways and it can still be considered unschooling.

 

Then there's the other camp of unschoolers who define unschooling as "no artificial learning."  They focus on doing real life, hands on, applied learning in real world situations.  This bunch is more willing to suggest and even sometimes demand certain skills are learned, but will provide children a range of real world options to choose from to learn it.  In my experience, this is a much smaller percentage of people who call themselves unschoolers.

 

Then there are parents of "free range children" who are in their own category.

[Corraleno]

I don't think I said that there was a line between unschooling and not-unschooling. :huh:

 

John Holt coined the term "unschooling." Mostly it meant learning that didn't look anything like school, where the adults trusted their children to learn what the children intuitively thought they needed to learn. It is living life and inviting children to participate. And within the context of unschooling, there will naturally be a wide range of what that looks like. It is less likely to look like parents requiring their children to learn specific things even if the learning is less structured.

 

You said "You either unschool or you don't" — that implies that there's a clear line between people who unschool and people who don't unschool. So where is the line? At what point does someone who unschools become someone who doesn't? If they suggest that a child might want to try using X math program, without the child specifically requesting it, are they no longer unschoolers? If they require that at some point before the age of 9 or 10 their kids learn how to read, does that disqualify them? If it's a child's choice to use lots of workbooks, does that cross the line, since it looks very much "like school"?

 

From everything I've read on various boards and in various books, there's a wide variety of people who call themselves unschoolers, and they all draw the line in different places. So the idea that there's a clear and obvious way to distinguish between "those who unschool and those who don't" seems problematic to me.

[momto2Cs]

The best thing you can do for yourself is to forget all the homeschooling labels and instead figure out your reasons and goals for homeschooling, and then figure out how to best achieve those goals with your children.  Sounds simplistic, but I did write out my homeschool philosophy at one point and I kept it in my planner/journal to refer to when things got confusing or tough.  

 

I considered myself a "classical unschooler", and I had one very outside the box kid who had some learning challenges and who never did what was "expected" either.  The classical part was the skills training -- math, spelling, writing -- first  it was handwriting with copy work, then narrations and eventually essays, some grammar and during middle school and high school there was logic.  Everything else I considered content, and it was almost entirely unschooled through the elementary years. A better term might be "interest led" as I harnessed my kid's interests all the way through high school as a means of exposing them to literature, history and science.  

 

I do believe learning happens all the time.  I did believe it was important to provide a rich environment for raising my kids that was filled with books and interesting activities.  But I also know that to mastering skills can require a certain amount of drudgery, and not every single kid is going to put the work into math and writing.  And as to knowing whether something is working?  Well, with the skills you just see improvement over time -- a little bit each day is sometimes all that is needed. You can tell if unschooling is working if your kids are happily engaged in whatever it is that interests them.  Are they asking for more books or specific tools or kits?  Are they bubbling with excitement when they talk with you about their projects or interests or reading?  

 

Do what feels right for your family, keep an eye on the end result -- the young adult you want to set loose in the world, and adjust as needed.

 

This.

 

As I have written in other recent posts, I work at a balance between classical and unschooling. We work on skills (math, reading, writing) daily. I expose them to the chronological flow of history. But outside that, I allow the content areas to be interest-led, and I work at facilitating their studies rather than designing them.

 

 

[Corraleno]

Well, yes, it's all in how you define your terms. I would say that you can't turn a major paradigm shift on and off. Either you shift, or you don't shift, but you perhaps allow yourself to be influenced in some areas by some unschooling ideas.

 

But why is it an all-or-nothing, on-off button, instead of a continuum? Or, I should say, why do some people define it in an all-or-nothing, on-off kind of way, since clearly in practice it is a continuum?

[Χά�ων]

Bc people are nuts.

 

I take a very relaxed approach where my kids do what they want with 90 % of their waking hours. But I do not allow my kids to leave their crap all over the floor.

I once attended the Unschoolers Winter Waterpark getaway. Lovely vacation. Strange people.

This. Well except I have not attended the Unschoolers Waterpark getaway. I wonder, what makes you say strange people? I am nit judging just wondering if you met some people I know.

[eternalsummer]

I dunno about the chores thing - my parents required literally nothing from me in the way of cleaning, chores, household duties - nothing.

 

Then I got married, and for several years there was a lot of strife because I just naturally didn't pick up after myself, or take out the trash, or do the dishes, or anything.  Part of it was that I didn't know how- but that was easy to learn.  The hard part was conditioning myself to the idea that I lived with other people and had to modify my habits to meet those people somewhere in the middle, where we could both live comfortably (and where I wasn't imposing my messiness on them).

 

How does that happen naturally, without teaching kids both how to clean and that they themselves must clean?

[Corraleno]

I dunno about the chores thing - my parents required literally nothing from me in the way of cleaning, chores, household duties - nothing.

 

Then I got married, and for several years there was a lot of strife because I just naturally didn't pick up after myself, or take out the trash, or do the dishes, or anything.  Part of it was that I didn't know how- but that was easy to learn.  The hard part was conditioning myself to the idea that I lived with other people and had to modify my habits to meet those people somewhere in the middle, where we could both live comfortably (and where I wasn't imposing my messiness on them).

 

How does that happen naturally, without teaching kids both how to clean and that they themselves must clean?

 

For me, it's not even an issue of making sure kids know how to look after themselves by the time they leave home; I just disagree, on a philosophical level, with the idea that kids shouldn't have to do any chores unless they feel like it. I'm their mother, not their maid, and it's not my job to pick up their messes. I'm actually very laid-back about how they keep their own rooms, but they're not allowed to leave their crap all over the public parts of the house, or leave their dirty dishes lying around for someone else to pick up. How is that respectful to the other people who live in the house? We divide up the chores in a way that everyone agrees to, and everyone pulls their own weight. We're a family, and IMHO that's how families function — as a team.

[ebunny]

 

I would really appreciate hearing from those of you who either have unschooling experience or who think unschooling can be a good choice (for at least some kids). How do you tell whether it's going to work, how long would you expect this to take, and does successful unschooling require a total commitment to unschooling? 

 

Let me first define what *I* mean by unschooling. To me, it meant educating my child using different kinds of teaching learning material, different contexts - parks, home, friends home, museum, etc. It also meant that DD and I had long conversations, read a lot, played board games...in short, did a lot of things together- cooked, did the laundry, folded clothes etc. I also taught her, sometimes when she initiated a topic out of her own interest. At other times, when I thought she needed to learn X before she got to Y. The education process was based on dialogue.

 

IMHO, Unschooling begins with the parents. I had to rethink what education ought to look like and define it, aligning to the needs and limitations of my family.

 

Most children do and feel best within a structure.you know, the Goldilocks kind- not too loose not too tight. The caveat is to find the right structure. And it can vary from day to day- so what feels very structured learning on one day, may change the next day.

 

I am not a proponent of letting the child do whatever he/she wants to do. They are children, iykwim. f I have to couch it in science, I would say that their pre frontal cortex is immature and executive functioning- goal setting, self discipline, focus are still a work in progress. It is up to the parents to guide children.

 

Read John Holt, but don't limit yourself to his vision. I following his ideas to a T and burned myself out soon. It was hard work. I realized I do best as a parent and a teacher when I have some learning boxes to check and don't have to constantly be on the alert for the next 'learning moment' so to speak. 

 

It is my personal belief that children do very well in an enriched environment with an involved guardian. But, it might not resemble anything like a school...no linear progression from this topic to that, nor any tests to determine where the child stands wrt her peers. the parent/guardian has to be comfortable with that idea. 

 

I was not sure what you mean by the bolded. Can you clarify? Successful education requires a complete commitment, and I see unschooling as one way of educating your child (not the only way)

 

 

 

 

ETA: My DD is in a B/M school for the past year as she wanted to learn in a 'group' and experience a classroom setting. She is quite happy there.

[raptor_dad]

"When pressed, I define unschooling as allowing children as much freedom to learn in the world, as their parents can comfortably bear."

 

I believe this is a quote from John Holt, the person who created the term "unschooling".

 

 

YES! THIS! I strongly identify as a classical unschooler.... Freedom is the key element. If you give your child the gift of this freedom you are unschooling.

 

My DS7 is a notional first grader...we did no imposed academics prior to K. He was sounding out words before age 2 but wasn't reading "Henry and Mudge" level books until age 5. We had a traumatic experience in public school K... it lasted a total of 6 weeks and took well over 6 months to deschool from. At home for K, we did no academics except required quiet time reading. At the end of the year he was reading Swallows and Amazons, Narnia, Oz, and the Hobbit. This year our only required subject is math. We have covered ~2  years of math in MEP and miquon so far. We do less than an hour a day of "school". We aren't as pure as Ceasar's wife here but I think we are close. The key is the freedom element. I provide resources but try not to compel. DS has never been required to finish a book he doesn't like. I have carefully planned out projects that we have abandonned(Lesson learned. Keep a soft list of ideas but don't invest[mentally or financially] in them until absolutely necessary). This year we did NO academics, NONE, between December and early March... partially that was an issue with discovering he was seasonally affected(light box;yay!), but regardless we felt free to drop things for the time being. I think that a lack of coercion is the key issue for unschooling. Strewing, presenting material, modelling pursuits are all fine... maybe not radically unschooling... but entirely consistent with Holt's vision. Your child needs to have a large, supermajority, amount of unstructured free time and the ability to select or reject subjects... if you meet these criteria you are "unschooling".

 

PS. When I say we require math this year... DS pisses and moans *everyday* when we start math... much like he moans about getting ready to take DS5 to preschool... or really any other transition at all <shrug> However, after 10 minutes he can drop it... I always ask if he wants more and he often does 30-45 minutes of math and occasionally does much more. Some days, like I mentioned for this Winter, he doesn't want to do *any* and that's fine too. Recently he has been nagging me about wanting to do more of "that writing stuff", which means penmanship and copywork. We briefly used Peggy Gardner's Italics... I guess I need to make some more model sheets for him to use... I had written this off since we last did this 6-7 months ago. So it goes.

 

PPS On the unparenting front... In addition to the gift of freedom I mentioned above... I also spend alot of time trying to give DS the gift of self-control... strangely that one is less well received ;) DS has a school IEP for ASD which is probably wrong. Sometimes childhood feels like one big CBT session. For our family it is easier to work on the social goals without overlaying a set of coercive academic goals.

[raptor_dad]

nm

[Free]

There's a deep shift that happens in a family and in the children when the whole paradigm of compulsory and imposed learning is removed, and it takes quite some time for that to sink in and happen. 

 

To be attempting to move back and forth in a day or a week between free! imposed! free! imposed! simply doesn't allow for that shift to happen at deep and sustained levels.

 

~

 

I think when people are doing that, they're not unschooling some subjects. They're doing something else, and it is valuable in it's own right. It's probably more of a democratic, child or interest led mode of (imposed) learning. In some ways, I think it's a good compromise between various push and pull factors.

 

But the point that I and several others are making in this thread is that unschooling does not have to be ONLY this. You do not need to have a rigid view of how unschooling should look like.

 

And while there is definitely a subset of people who believe that children can learn all that they need for life by just living life, not all unschoolers have to subscribe to that view.

 

An unschooler can also define goals for his or her education and take whatever necessary steps to achieve those goals. These steps may look nothing at all like traditional school, or they may look completely like traditional school, that is irrelevant. I completely disagree with the idea that just by the act of setting educational goals, a person automatically gets disqualified to be an unschooler.

[ebunny]

 

I merely describe my experience as someone who embraced unschooling (at the radical end) and has subsequently found herself not unschooling.

 

The bolded is very intriguing. If I may ask, what caused the move from 'radical unschooling' to 'not unschooling'. I do recall you mentioning some unpleasant experiences wrt Sandra Dodd..?

 

 

In my limited experience and exposure to Radical Unschooling-- parents (personally known to me) are fine with the idea of RU one week. The next week they are stressed out because their 11 yr old is showing no interest in reading anything except for comics or unable to perform arithmetic at the same speed as school going children. I didn't see a moderation or balance in their life. 

[lewelma]

I have never quite understood why an unschooling philosophy assumes no parental influence.  I influence my kids all the time.  Wow, maths is cool isn't it.  Have you ever wondered why the sun only comes in your room in the summer?  I wonder why I always hit this light when engineers can time lights?  Kids respond to parental enthusiasm.  I don't take a neutral stance, and wait for them to come to me and ask.  I offer excitement, engagement, enthusiasm.  And it is contagious.  I get excited, they get excited;  they get excited, I get excited.  It's fun. 

 

The other thing I want to say is that people need encouragement to meet goals when the going gets tough.  I wanted a birth without meds.  I chose a midwife who encouraged me when things got tough to stick it out.  If someone had told me in the middle of it all, oh, just take a bit, it will make things easier, I would have done it.  But then, later, I would have been sad.  I needed that support to achieve what I wanted to achieve.  I think that unschooling should be similar.  Even as an unschooler of sorts, I don't believe that you allow kids to do whatever they want at all times.  If they have a goal, you are there to support and encourage when things get tough.  To brainstorm, solve problems.  Unschoolers don't have to just allow the kid to do whatever he wants whenever he wants, that is not the philosophy.  No No No!  It is about self drive, self determination, learning because you want to.  And in any endeavour, at some point things get tough, and that is where you *want* support and encouragement, rather than permission to give up.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

[lewelma]

Here is an example, where it is not all or nothing.  This is not unschooling, but in the end they are studying what they want to study.  So kind of the best of both worlds in my house.

 

x-post

 

 

I thought I might expand a bit on how to get the kids on board and excited about "what is next." Science in my house is both interest driven and organized/systematic. Yes it can be done. :001_smile:

I start before summer, mentioning in passing about how "I can't wait until next year because we will be doing earth science." I drop little hints, "did you know that earth science has 4 major fields: astronomy, geology, meteorology, and oceanography." Every couple of week for months, I say something else quite purposefully, dropping seeds of interest. "I know so little about crystals, I can't wait until geology." Eventually, the kids start asking "what are we studying next year again?" or "Do we get to study sand next year?" And "oh, I can't wait until we get to astronomy!"

Then, once we are in the earth science year, I drop hints during the first unit on Astronomy, "did you know that geology is next?" A few weeks later, I might mention " wow, I had no idea that geology was such a huge field - rocks, crystals, soil, ground water, plate tectonics, earthquakes, and volcanoes. I just don't think we will be able to do it all. What should we skip?" Then, it goes something like, "ah, mom, we can't skip any of it. I love geology." etc. I think you get the idea. These are breadcrumbs, leading the way to path I want them to follow. It works shockingly well!!! Just today, as I was talking excitedly about finding some good chemistry books in the library for next year, ds(8) asked "what is chemistry?" "Well, it is all about atoms and reactions, like when you put vinegar and baking soda together." "oh, I love chemistry," he says. The first little breadcrumb in place...

[lewelma]

Please don't quote, as I will be deleting this....

 

I will finish with the saga of my older son. My ds is a bit of a math genius (can't believe I just said that, but there you go). I was unschooling him, and at age 6.5 I realised that he really liked maths, but was developing irregularly.  He could do 3 digit multiplication in his head, but couldn't subtract 9-6.  He never asked for a math curriculum, but I decided to buy one.  It was my first big step away from unschooling. From the point of view of some of the unschoolers I was hanging out with at the time,  unschooling equalled no curriculum, so I felt a bit like a traitor.  Then to make it worse, my ds did not really like what I bought him.  It was too easy, and boring.  So I just told him to skip a bunch of stuff. Just do the hard problems.  So he did.

 

At times in that first year of math, I saw horrible emotional difficulties, that made me question what I was doing.  He would get 1 problem wrong, and then punish himself by setting himself a 30 page requirement (which would take him 2+ hours).  He was 7.  Was this unschooling, I asked?  Letting him punish himself?  So I stepped in again, and banned the practice.  We talked about perfectionism, and I *trained* him to see maths differently.  Sometimes, he wanted to skip too much, and I put my foot down and told him, no, he really had to do it, he could not skip all of fractions.  Eventually, he told me that I could NOT teach him, and that he would NOT use the textbook because that was cheating.  He would figure it out on his own. So I let him.  But then, sometimes he would learn it with the wrong process, something he had figured out on his own that would not work in all cases.  So I forced him to do it the proper way.  Yes, I *forced* him, and he did not appreciate it!  It was not very unschooly of me, and I worried.  All. The. Time.   How could I celebrate this drive, without the negative emotional side effects, the obsession, the compulsions, the perfectionism? How could I let him teach himself, but still make sure he learned it right? So I chose to check certain impulses, correct some habits, and do what he did not want me to do - *teach* him a few things. So I diverged further from unschooling. Or did I?

 

One day when he had just turned 9 years old, I found him with the AoPS algebra book.  He had discovered it on the shelf, and decided to give it a go.  It was hard. And he *refused* all help.  He would bloody well do it on his own.  Sometimes I would see him laughing with a light in his eyes, and he would run and tell me some great discovery he had made. Sometimes I would seem him crying, for *hours.*  Berating himself because he could not do it.  But he would NOT accept help. EVER.....   So I hid the book.....  He cried more, he raged, but I told him that I would not give it back until I he had some balance.  I set some ground rules - he would never do math for more than 2 hours in a row without a break.  He would allow me to go over the material with him for 10 minutes at the beginning of every chapter.  If he began to cry, he would take a break or ask for help.  Eventually, he agreed to my demands, and he got his book back.  But once again, was this unschooling on my part or not?  It was not always so crystal clear.  I did what I *had* to do, to keep his mental health in place.  But it was not what he wanted.

 

Last year, he set his sights on the International Math Olympaid.  He wanted to get into the summer training program.  So we made a plan to drop all science and English to make room for more math.  5 hours per day was needed for about 8 months to get his skills up to the point that he could take the entrance exam.  There were days that it was impossibly difficult -- I couldn't do the math, he could not do it!  We just hit our heads on the desk, and he cried.  But he needed me to be there for him.  To tell him he could do it when the going go tough.  When the exam came, it was hard, but I encouraged him to keep going. The exam took him 60 hours, and when he got in to the camp, he was over the moon.  He was the youngest student in the country to get in.

 

Now, he is at 5 hours of math a day by choice.  But he worries about his English skills.  He hates to write papers, but still wants to learn to write.  So we agreed to block writing every 3 weeks, 3 days of 3 hours each to produce an essay/research paper. This approach would keep writing off his math days.  He complains, says he can't possibly get all his math in to make time; but then when he is working on his papers, he enjoys it.  He has asked me if I think he is doing enough writing because he wants to learn the skill, but then in the same breath tells me he doesn't have time and doesn't want to do it.  How in the world would an unschooler respond to that kind of confusion in desire and intent? 

 

My point with this long saga, is that unschooling is NOT straight forward.  I would not consider myself an unschooler any longer, just look at my siggy.  But perhaps I still am.  I have done what I have considered the best for my child.  He has always been too young at every stage to know "what is best for him," which is the worst saying ever from the point of an unschooler.  But yet, in the end, I was right.  His drive combined with my discipline has been a winning combination. 

 

You can have balance.  It is definitely not all or nothing.

 

Ruth in NZ

[IsabelC]

Thank you so much for the input. I'm reading and thinking about things.

[sunnyday]

I have never quite understood why an unschooling philosophy assumes no parental influence.  I influence my kids all the time.  Wow, maths is cool isn't it.  Have you ever wondered why the sun only comes in your room in the summer?  I wonder why I always hit this light when engineers can time lights?  Kids respond to parental enthusiasm.  I don't take a neutral stance, and wait for them to come to me and ask.  I offer excitement, engagement, enthusiasm.  And it is contagious.  I get excited, they get excited;  they get excited, I get excited.  It's fun.

 

I believe this is what is meant by "strewing" which is mentioned constantly in connection with unschooling families. There may be some philosophical unschoolers who are opposed even to this, but I don't think it's a majority.

[My3girls]

I think unschooling can work for most kids, but I think the parent has to be active in including children in what they are doing and in providing new experiences, ideas, and topics. Kids can't be interested in learning about something if they don't know it's out there. This can be really hard work. Last night, I made grilled cheese sandwiches. Dd7 helped me. She gathered the ingredients and did the flipping. Did it take twice as long as it should have? Yep. Did she practice counting, adding, and even some multiplying? Yep. Dh caught a lizard and showed the girls. Are they all out catching lizards, frogs, and turtles, now? Yep. We have gone to the library and checked out a ton of books on reptiles and amphibians. They are learning how to find them on their own and reading them on their own. They have done internet searches on how to make traps for insects to feed them and drawn pictures and diagrams in their notebooks. When I took them out of public school, they weren't interested in reading ANYTHING! Dd12 even did a presentation on fence lizards comparing and contrasting western and eastern. They now educate me on all kids of critters they bring to show me or point out to me on our walks.

 

When we first left ps, I was very regimented with their school schedule. As we have gone along, they are doing more of the leading, and I am just supporting. I don't think if I had just left them to their own devices that would have happened. We would have had a year of video games, tv, and playing outside. Now, I have kids who ask to go to the library, for notebooks, to go on nature walks, and who read voluntarily! I took them to the natural science museum yesterday. None of them wanted to go. The comment when we got there was this is boring. I had to make them leave after 3.5 hours with a promise that we would come back. If they had still thought it boring after an hour, we would have left and not come back. I signed them up for art class which none of them wanted to do. At the end of the 6 weeks (1 class per week), they asked if we could sign up for the next one. Unfortunately, we have to wait until fall because of budget, but they are looking forward to it.

 

All this to say, I don't think it's all or nothing. My girls have learned all about indothermic/exothermic, indoskeletons/exoskeletons, prey/predators, habitats, seasons, migration, hibernation, adaptation, etc... without a class, a text book, or a worksheet, and because they wanted to. Incidentally, they advanced their reading and library skills, learned some physics and nutrition, expanded their vocabulary and spelling, and life cycles and reproduction were introduced. Can you tell I'm excited about the way our school has evolved? Lol. Our deschooling didn't mean not doing anything until they got bored with video games. It meant taking them out of b&m and involving them in the world around them whether they wanted to or not.

[Χά�ων]

 Kids can't be interested in learning about something if they don't know it's out there.

:iagree:  Yep. 

[lewelma]

 Kids can't be interested in learning about something if they don't know it's out there.[/size]

Sometimes I wonder what my older boy's life would be like if I had never given him that workbook, if he had never discovered the AoPS book on the shelf, if Kathy in Richmond had never suggested the math competitions.

 

Somehow I doubt he would be doing 5 hours of math a day at age 13, with an eye to the IMO.

[My3girls]

Sometimes I wonder what my older boy's life would be like if I had never given him that workbook, if he had never discovered the AoPS book on the shelf, if Kathy in Richmond had never suggested the math competitions.

 

Somehow I doubt he would be doing 5 hours of math a day at age 13, with an eye to the IMO.

Wish that had worked with my girls. Unfortunately, math is one area that I have to make them do because there is NO interest there. They LOVE LOVE LOVE science, though. I try to sneak in as much of the other subjects in under that umbrella as I can.