Is a diploma from a virtual school a good way to get into college?

[Greta]

I've done some browsing online, trying to find information about how well kids who have attended virtual schools do in college, in terms of both admissions and also graduation rate. I can't find anything. It may be that these schools are too new for there to be any solid information. But I thought I would ask if anyone here knows, in case I am missing anything.

 

Do you know how college admissions officers look upon diplomas from virtual academies and charter schools like K12 and Connections? How do they view that as compared to homeschooling or brick-and-mortar public schools? Or compared to university-run high schools, or private "school at home" type high schools like Kolbe and Seton?

 

Or, do test scores, grades, etc. matter MUCH more than where your child attended school?

 

ANY information at all is appreciated. Thank you!

[regentrude]

I do not have any stats or data, but if you look at the College Acceptance threads, you will see that the students of board members got into schools of any caliber - most of them with parent issues home school transcripts.

I doubt that a transcript from a virtual school gives any advantage (or disadvantage, for that matter). Test scores and dual enrollment grades probably matter much more.

[Greta]

After looking up our current school's performance on the state's standardized test, I was growing concerned that it might actually be a disadvantage to have a diploma from one of these schools! From what I read online, virtual schools are generally performing worse than brick-and-mortar schools in other states as well. If they get a reputation for being sub-par schools, my fear is that it will actually hurt my daughter's chances in college if we stick with this school rather than going back to homeschooling.

 

Good to know re: test scores and dual enrollment grades. Thank you!

[regentrude]

After looking up our current school's performance on the state's standardized test, I was growing concerned that it might actually be a disadvantage to have a diploma from one of these schools! From what I read online, virtual schools are generally performing worse than brick-and-mortar schools in other states as well. If they get a reputation for being sub-par schools, my fear is that it will actually hurt my daughter's chances in college if we stick with this school rather than going back to homeschooling.

 

I would be much more concerned about the quality of instruction than about the schools name on the transcript (the diploma will be issued once your student has graduated and been accepted to college).

I highly doubt that colleges will give much weight to the school's name on the transcript - but if your DD gets a sub-par math instruction, that will hurt her, both on standardized tests and for her level of preparedness for college.

 

The math issues you mentioned in the other thread would be sufficient cause for me to withdraw my student from that school and go it alone.

[Greta]

Thank your or your help -- and for your directness and honesty about the math instruction.  I am leaning that way myself, though I'm a little scared at the thought of homeschooling high school.  I just want to make sure I am doing what's best for her.

 

We should be getting the results of my daughter's standardized tests in a few more weeks.  It will be interesting to see how she performed.  We had her take an achievement test one year (when we were homeschooling) and she did quite well on it.  It wasn't the same test but it still might be useful to compare her performance when homeschooling versus after a year with this school.

 

 

[Arcadia]

I've done some browsing online, trying to find information about how well kids who have attended virtual schools do in college, in terms of both admissions and also graduation rate. I can't find anything. It may be that these schools are too new for there to be any solid information.

 

 

For schools like K12, the turnover rate might be too high.  I know people who put their kids in my local virtual high school for a year or two due to bullying issues and then these kids went back to their "original" high school.  The virtual academics tend to attract the outliers so it is unlikely the data will serve any useful purpose compare to looking at graduation rates of your local public high school.

 

Statistics for my local virtual high school using K12.  The drop out rate is high.

"Dropout Rate (1-year)

2008-2009 71.1

2009-2010 65.5

2010-2011 53.6

Graduation Rate

2009-2010 29.47

2010-2011 30.36

[Greta]

Thank you, Arcadia.  That's a good point to keep in mind.

[PeterPan]

After looking up our current school's performance on the state's standardized test, I was growing concerned that it might actually be a disadvantage to have a diploma from one of these schools! From what I read online, virtual schools are generally performing worse than brick-and-mortar schools in other states as well. If they get a reputation for being sub-par schools, my fear is that it will actually hurt my daughter's chances in college if we stick with this school rather than going back to homeschooling.

 

Good to know re: test scores and dual enrollment grades. Thank you!

This is what I read in the newspapers about the cyber schools here in Ohio.  I'm sure there are some good ones, and I'm sure there are some that just get you by with the minimum whatever.  I'd make sure she's doing the most rigorous or appropriate work SHE is capable of and call it good.  

[G5052]

I'm sure that there are exceptions, but most admissions officers that I've questioned say that test scores, showing that they've challenged themselves academically, being well-rounded, and having some outside activities that they were dedicated to is what they're really looking for.  They know that not everyone has the same opportunities.  Several said that they glance at grades, but other than wanting a good GPA, they really don't dwell on that.  There's a lot of grade inflation.

 

I work for a community college where only 25% graduate within 5 years of starting.  And we still send our top graduates on to "name brand" schools including several "public ivies."  The graduation rate doesn't affect that at all.

 

If you're concerned about the expectations being too low, certainly I would move on.  That's the #1 reason why we're homeschooling.   Being pushed appropriately in high school is very important to me.

 

[Greta]

Thank you both so much for your posts.

 

 test scores, showing that they've challenged themselves academically, being well-rounded, and having some outside activities that they were dedicated to is what they're really looking for. 

 

This is a huge help!  But let me ask a (possibly rather dumb) question:  what sort of outside activities are they looking for?  Sports?  Community service/volunteering?  Other?

[regentrude]

  But let me ask a (possibly rather dumb) question:  what sort of outside activities are they looking for?  Sports?  Community service/volunteering?  Other?

 

From what I have read, it can be anything that shows the student is genuinely interested in something and is "participating in the world" - instead of just doing his school work and then playing video games. It can be sports, or music, or volunteer work, or some out-of-the-box activity he is passionate about. Colleges like to see a few sustained activities pursued over a longer time, rather than random participation in two dozen clubs and activities.

My DD, for example, has been riding horses, singing in choir, and tutoring physics, each for several years.

[Ellie]

I've done some browsing online, trying to find information about how well kids who have attended virtual schools do in college, in terms of both admissions and also graduation rate. I can't find anything. It may be that these schools are too new for there to be any solid information. But I thought I would ask if anyone here knows, in case I am missing anything.

 

Do you know how college admissions officers look upon diplomas from virtual academies and charter schools like K12 and Connections? How do they view that as compared to homeschooling or brick-and-mortar public schools? Or compared to university-run high schools, or private "school at home" type high schools like Kolbe and Seton?

 

Or, do test scores, grades, etc. matter MUCH more than where your child attended school?

 

ANY information at all is appreciated. Thank you!

 

 

I don't know what kind of statistics or other information might be available outside of Connections or other charter schools as to how many of their students are accepted to colleges. In fact, that would be my first direction of investigations: checking with local facilitators (or whatever they call their local contacts).

[Teachin'Mine]

Greta, another way to find out how the virtual program is viewed is to call admissions at your local state university and ask them what they think.   You could also email them the information on the virtual school and a possible 4-year course plan and see what they say. 

 

If at all possible, I'd try to plan for at least a few dual enrollment courses so your daughter can learn how to navigate an actual campus and become familiar with all the different departments and services.  The community college is also a great place for school and community involvement through clubs and organizations. 

[Greta]

Great suggestions. Thank you!

[MomatHWTK]

My firstborn is taking a non-traditional path so I'm not facing these issues quite yet. But, my personal plan has been to use one of the state university distance high school programs if I can't work out a plan of my own that I'm comfortable using.  I am assuming that a program run by the university will meet at least that school's admission requirements.  ;)

[Greta]

I plan to use CA for 2 years, then apply him to an early college charter school that would pay for dual enrollment courses. I'm hoping it will be a smooth transition from homeschool, to learning how to manage different teachers and deadlines at the virtual school, then he'll be prepared to handle much more independence with taking cc courses.

Wow, that's a pretty neat option!

[Tree Frog]

Bumping because I have the same question. My dd would like to return to hsing. Our options are something like CA, K12, or traditional hsing and taking advantage of DE courses at the local CC. My dh was an ROTC commander at an engineering university and, based upon his experiences, he believes universities look at graduates of online schools as having problems of some sort; the students couldn't handle being in a B&M school. I'm not sure I entirely agree with him. The student will be able to prove herself through the admissions process, regardless of the type of diploma.

[creekland]

Bumping because I have the same question. My dd would like to return to hsing. Our options are something like CA, K12, or traditional hsing and taking advantage of DE courses at the local CC. My dh was an ROTC commander at an engineering university and, based upon his experiences, he believes universities look at graduates of online schools as having problems of some sort; the students couldn't handle being in a B&M school. I'm not sure I entirely agree with him. The student will be able to prove herself through the admissions process, regardless of the type of diploma.

 

The stereotype is likely true for many students.  Our B&M school uses online courses for students who have difficulty in their regular classes (behavior, pace) or who have failed a class and need to make up the credit.

 

Back when my guy was in 10th grade I had him do an online English course thinking it would be better than our subpar English class at school.  I thought since the online school offered AP options that it would have a decent prep before those classes.  It was a bad choice.  The online class did absolutely nothing for my guy.  He'd have to turn in paragraphs/essays, etc, and would get them back with just a grade (usually A), but little feedback and many glaring mistakes (like sentence fragments) going unaddressed.  Our school discontinued their affiliation with this source (esp for academic kids) after my complaints (and complaints from others), but I'm not sure what we're using now is any better.  I can't actually recall the name of what we're using now.  I'd have to ask to refresh my neuron path.

 

I've seen the online options kids at our school use now (math, health, etc) and I've yet to be impressed with the content of any of them.  They truly are dumbed down for kids to be able to get credits.

 

I can see why college admin would look down upon them OR want substantial proof of academic foundation from other sources.

 

[Elisabet1]

Thank your or your help -- and for your directness and honesty about the math instruction.  I am leaning that way myself, though I'm a little scared at the thought of homeschooling high school.  I just want to make sure I am doing what's best for her.

 

We should be getting the results of my daughter's standardized tests in a few more weeks.  It will be interesting to see how she performed.  We had her take an achievement test one year (when we were homeschooling) and she did quite well on it.  It wasn't the same test but it still might be useful to compare her performance when homeschooling versus after a year with this school.

I was very scared going in to high school too and sent my children back to public school for high school.

 

But to be honest, the math and science education was so bad, I see now that home schooling would have been the better option. I don't necessarily regret the choice I made, but, I won't do it again. Plus, by now, I have seen other home schoolers I knew years ago get in to the same schools my children got in to, with the same scholarships. However, many of them have a much better, more solid education going in to the colleges.

[dlcricket]

Our children studied online through Northstar Academy, and our two oldest received their diploma there. Both boys got full academic scholarships- tuition, books, room, and board, at different universities.  The oldest now has a MA and teaches in a university. The second will graduate with honors in May, and has been accepted into grad school with a fellowship that pays half tuition and another that pays $700/semester.

 

Edited to add- both tested well in math and were placed in higher level math classes and given credit for the ones skipped.

[Greta]

However, many of them have a much better, more solid education going in to the colleges.

Yes, thank you for bringing up this very important point. It's not just about getting accepted into college, it's also about being prepared to do the work that you'll face in college. Can I prepare her for college level work better than this charter school will? I would love to give a resounding yes, but it ends up being a pretty timid yes because I am nervous about taking on such a big responsibility. I felt pretty confident about homeschooling elementary and middle school, but high school just feels so different somehow.

 

Thank you so much for sharing your experience.

[Greta]

Our children studied online through Northstar Academy, and our two oldest received their diploma there. Both boys got full academic scholarships- tuition, books, room, and board, at different universities. The oldest now has a MA and teaches in a university. The second will graduate with honors in May, and has been accepted into grad school with a fellowship that pays half tuition and another that pays $700/semester.

 

Edited to add- both tested well in math and were placed in higher level math classes and given credit for the ones skipped.

That's wonderful! I'm not familiar with Northstar but I'll look into it.

[Scarlett]

My ds14 is in K12 and has been since first grade. I believe it is a rigorous program but as with every choice it is only as good as the students personal motivation and parental guidance. He is math bright and still struggles a bit with his math work. If he didn't have an involved parent I think he would not survive it. He certainly would not be mastering it. He had an A last semester and a mid B this semester. He has consistently scored advanced on his standardized tests in math and LA. So I believe the potential is there in the program for a strong math education if handled correctly. I know he is far ahead of B&M in this geographical area and far ahead of other homeschoolers I know who are using various other OLSs.

 

I agree with a PP that K12 has a high drop out rate for various reasons. Colleges know this and I doubt they look much at K12s graduates or lack of to determine whether to admit an individual.

 

I am hoping to dual enroll ds......it will depend much on his maturity....he will be 16 1/2 when school begins his junior year....so we shall see. I know he has the intellect but not sure if he has the focus and or emotional maturity.

[Greta]

He had an A last semester and a mid B this semester. He has consistency scored advanced on his standardized tests in math and LA. So I believe the potential is there in the program for a strong math education if handled correctly. I know he is far ahead of B&M in this geographical area and far ahead of other homeschoolers I know who are using various other OLSs.

Wow, that's great Scarlett! I'm glad to hear that K12 is working out so well for you. We've had so many frustrations with the math program, but obviously not everyone shares that experience. I know that no curriculum is going to be perfect, and if dd can master the art of doing her best with what's given, well that's a good thing. I think my husband is leaning more towards the idea of sticking with K12 and supplementing as needed. But I'm more of the mindset of just using a program that really fits her, rather than wasting time on one that doesn't.

 

Is your son 8th or 9th this year? I'm curious if you have any experience with their high school program. I've been fine with the mixture of online and book learning that they've given us at the middle school level, but I'm very concerned about the fact that the high school is entirely online. I'd love to know what you think about that.

[Scarlett]

He is an 8th grader doing 9 th grade math and science for high school credit. Additionally, the LIT and social studies are on the high school platform to prepare them for next year. All he has on the jr, high OLS is art.

 

I can't say it being all on line thrills me. I like to see and touch my books....but I recognize this is our future, especially our kids futures.

 

K12is rigorous. I know I keep repeating that but it is true. If you are working with a charter school, make use of the teachers. If you are using it independently and can't help at high school level, get a tutor. I don't know why it wouldn't work for anyone, unless it is just too difficult.

[Scarlett]

.

[Greta]

He is an 8th grader doing 9 th grade math and science for high school credit. Additionally, the LIT and social studies are on the high school platform to prepare them for next year. All he has on the jr, high OLS is art.

 

Oh, that's so nice that you have that flexibility! Our charter school does not allow that. The school is very new (this was only their second year) so I think they're still figuring things out and just not ready to handle much that is outside of the norms, so to speak. My daughter can get high school credit for her Algebra and English classes with the approval of the teacher, and her teacher has assured us that this won't be a problem at all since she is doing so well in both courses. But she didn't have the option of taking any other high school level work.

 

I can't say it being all on line thrills me. I like to see and touch my books....but I recognize this is our future, especially our kids futures.

Yeah, I see your point! I know this is the direction that things are moving. But at the same time, I don't think they're moving that direction so quickly that my daughter's college experience will be significantly different from mine. She will attend lectures and study from overpriced textbooks just like I did, right? (But she'll take notes on a laptop or iPad, rather than a 50 cent spiral-bound notebook like I did. ;) )

 

I don't know why it wouldn't work for anyone, unless it is just too difficult.

No school or curriculum is perfect. I can think of several reasons besides just level of difficulty that a program might not be the best fit for a particular child.

 

But I think that I have offended you, and for that I am sincerely sorry. I should have given more careful thought to the fact that the program I am unhappy with would be loved by others. (My question in this thread was really just about the reputation that these schools have among college admissions officers, but I did more complaining in the other thread, and I take responsibility for that.) And perhaps I should also have made it more clear that there are aspects of the program that I really like. I think the English is rigorous. I am impressed with any program in which my daughter reads Shakespeare and Dickens and other good quality lit in 8th grade. I think the grammar is really tough and challenging. And the writing assignments have been good, the level of quality expected was high, and the feedback she got from her teacher was great. But I am disappointed with the math and science (and it's not because they are too difficult). My husband and I are very math- and science-oriented people, so I think in those areas I have much clearer ideas and stronger opinions about what I want taught, how I want it taught, etc. I've heard other people say the exact opposite about K12 from what I feel: that the language arts are okay, but the science and math is really strong. I guess it's all a matter of perspective. I had very high hopes that this school would work out very well for us, and be just what we needed. Honestly, I really do think it's wonderful that it works so well for your son and for other families like you. But now I just have to decide if the benefits outweigh the costs, or if she would be better off with something else.

It's very hard to know for sure, and I'm just trudging through this as best I can. Since I know I have a tendency to make quick decisions and then regret them later, I am making myself take at least two months to really think this over before acting. K12 is a good school. I want to be darn sure I can do better before I take her out.

 

Well, I got long-winded there -- that happens a lot. But the point I was trying to make is that I hope you can forgive me for being insensitive. I feel so conflicted, and I'm just trying to think through all my options, and I probably came across much more harsh and judgmental that I realized or intended. I am sorry.

[Scarlett]

Oh no, you didn't offend me at all. I am not that married to K12 that I defend it.....really. My comment about not knowing why it wouldn't work unless it is too difficult was more musing than anything. Because of all the kids I know who have dropped out that is their reason for doing so.

 

Somedays I hate k12 so much I want to rip my hair out....but honestly that is more my frustration with the state charter hoops I have to jump through than anything specific to K12. There may be better options but I am committed to K12 now and I feel fairly confident that he will get more than an adequate education.

 

I really know very little about how colleges view K12....I like reading threads like this to learn about that.

[Greta]

Oh no, you didn't offend me at all.

Oh, good. I am so relieved! :)

 

Because of all the kids I know who have dropped out that is their reason for doing so.

Ah, I see! Yeah, I get that. This reminded me of something. I'll tell you by PM.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Greta, another way to find out how the virtual program is viewed is to call admissions at your local state university and ask them what they think.   You could also email them the information on the virtual school and a possible 4-year course plan and see what they say.

:iagree:

I have called and emailed admissions offices at large public unis and small private colleges to ask a variety of high school planning questions.  The admissions folks have always been very helpful.

 

Can I prepare her for college level work better than this charter school will? I would love to give a resounding yes, but it ends up being a pretty timid yes because I am nervous about taking on such a big responsibility. I felt pretty confident about homeschooling elementary and middle school, but high school just feels so different somehow.

I can relate to this.  Out of curiosity, do you have any CC options?  We are forunate that CC is free for homeschoolers in 10th-12th grade here. 

[Greta]

:iagree:

I have called and emailed admissions offices at large public unis and small private colleges to ask a variety of high school planning questions. The admissions folks have always been very helpful.

That's good to know! I will do this. I'll start working on a mental list of questions. If you have any suggestions as to what to ask, I'd be grateful.

 

I can relate to this. Out of curiosity, do you have any CC options? We are forunate that CC is free for homeschoolers in 10th-12th grade here.

Editing this part - I just went to our CC's website to see if I could find the answer to that question. Dual enrollment is free, but only to students in certain high schools. It said nothing about homeschoolers, AND our current charter school is not on the list either! Free would be ideal, of course, but I believe that the tuition there is pretty affordable, and we could afford to send her to a few classes. I'll take a look at their course catalog and try to find out more about how it works. One branch of the CC is just two miles from our house, so that certainly would be convenient!

[Greta]

Why has my avatar disappeared???

[Sunshine State Sue]

I would ask them about their opinion of the virtual school students if they have any experience with them.  I suspect CC would be looked upon more favorably.

 

I asked a quesion about English.  Ds had a traditional 9th grade English class.  10th grade was HS Composition.  11th grade was CC Comp 1.  The lit classes were mostly online at CC and there was an abundance of in-person Comp 2 classes.  I wondered how his transcript would look if he had 1 traditional English class and 3 comp courses.  The schools did not care one bit.

 

I asked a question about science.  CC had may science options:  marine science, geology, meteorology, astronomy.  I asked how it would look to not have the traditional biology and chemistry (ds had physics in 9th grade).  At the tech school, not having chemistry would have been a disadvantage.

[Greta]

Thank you, Sue! That is a huge help!

[Lanny]

Greta: I have been very curious about how your DD was doing in that program. Those free programs  probably vary a lot, from state to state, but overall, my impression is that they have a very high rate of "churning" (turnover among the students) and  probably there are not a lot of graduates from them yet, for you to find much reliable data regarding acceptance into universities.

 

IMHO, if the education your DD is receiving is rigorous, that is fine. If not, try to find something else that is affordable for your family.

 

I think I read earlier in this thread that in High School everything will be Online? That might be reason for some concern. TTUISD "Online" courses all require that we purchase traditional ($$$$) textbooks, and that is how it is if someone attends Tech or another university. Traditional textbooks are used.  And, we had an experience, about 2 months ago, where the phone company had some  horrible problem and we lost our phone, our TV and our ADSL service. DD had to change her study plans that day, but with the textbooks, she was able to keep going.  The problem was fixed after approximately 9 hours.

 

GL to your DD and your family with whatever you decide to do.

[Greta]

I think I read earlier in this thread that in High School everything will be Online? That might be reason for some concern.

It is! My husband says we can always supplement with books. But my concern with that is the tremendous amount of time involved. Her schoolwork already takes 6-7 hours per day. If we are supplementing heavily, I just don't know if we can handle such long hours.

 

And, we had an experience, about 2 months ago, where the phone company had some horrible problem and we lost our phone, our TV and our ADSL service. DD had to change her study plans that day, but with the textbooks, she was able to keep going. The problem was fixed after approximately 9 hours.

We had a lost day when internet service to our neighborhood was interrupted. And K12's entire math program was inaccessible for more than week when they had a problem on their end! So, yes, aside from any philosophical debate about books versus computers, there is a practical side to this that must be considered as well. Technology is wonderful . . . when it works.