mamaraby Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Ds can decode words just fine and is a voracious reader, but that doesn't translate to his spelling. I am confident on the reading level as we do periodic oral reading and he has good reading comprehension. There seems to be a disconnect between the reading/spelling skillset for him. We've picked up Spelling Workout again just because we needed something, but it's really not helping as much as I like. He is capable of memorizing the spelling list, but it seems inefficient and I'm wondering if having some rules to spelling might flip the switch. We've also tried Sequential Spelling, but I think I either don't get it or it's a wash. I have also considered: -AAS - so many levels that I'd potentially have to buy in rapid succession. The plus being he'd get the rules and I could reuse it with his sisters. Not sure, but can it be resold? -LOE - picking up their rhythm of handwriting to help a bit with his cursive (has that regimented technique that I like quite a bit from a brief brush with Peterson Directed Handwriting), but then using the phoneme/spelling rule cards, the spelling journal, and the spelling game book from LOE, but skipping the curriculum as about 2/3 of it seems to basically duplicating FLL/WWE right on down to the definitions for parts ofspeech. WWE/FLL is working for us so I don't want to change that. I'm also thinking of the Foundations books for my girls which I can use with the same cards. -A third and yet unknown program? Something cheaper, with fewer levels and stuff to buy, and that I could reuse with siblings. Something like FLL, but for spelling. SWR? Ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriedClams Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Sorry, I'm like the reefgazer. My dd is a voracious reader (i.e. read the unabridged Hobbit in a day) but cannot spell well. We've used nearly every spelling out there - Phonietic Zoo, CLE, R&S.... No huge improvement. Fine on the quizzes, no carry over. We still do spelling in CLE, but I m transitioning to embracing the spell check and making her type all her papers. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Reading and spelling are not the same thing. It is not uncommon for children to have good reading skills and poor spelling skills. If you wanted to do LOE, you would not see the results you hope for if you do not use it as it is written. You might be able to guess that my recommendation would be Spalding. :D But again, you will only see the results you're hoping for if you follow the method as closely as possible. You'd need the manual (Writing Road to Reading) and a set of phonogram cards; your ds might need a spelling notebook (children under 8yo don't keep a spelling notebook). You're looking at spending less than $40. Spalding teaches children to read by teaching them to spell, and also covers (as in you cannot separate them from each other) penmanship, capitalization and punctuation, and simple writing. It *can* cover more comprehensive grammar, reading/literature, and composition, but most of us like to mix things up some. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedmom4 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I think AAS would be perfect in your situation. It might be pricey in the beginning but it's reusable. Of course you can resell it when you are finished, that's what I've done. AAS has helped my children tremendously. Two of my kids just needed some solid rules and they were off and spelling well quickly but my youngest child really needs a lot of practice and help with spelling and AAS is doing the job. I can't recommend it highly enough! Good luck! Elise in NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamaraby Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Reading and spelling are not the same thing. It is not uncommon for children to have good reading skills and poor spelling skills. If you wanted to do LOE, you would not see the results you hope for if you do not use it as it is written. You might be able to guess that my recommendation would be Spalding. :D But again, you will only see the results you're hoping for if you follow the method as closely as possible. You'd need the manual (Writing Road to Reading) and a set of phonogram cards; your ds might need a spelling notebook (children under 8yo don't keep a spelling notebook). You're looking at spending less than $40. Spalding teaches children to read by teaching them to spell, and also covers (as in you cannot separate them from each other) penmanship, capitalization and punctuation, and simple writing. It *can* cover more comprehensive grammar, reading/literature, and composition, but most of us like to mix things up some. :-) Lol, you had me at $40. I have to admit, though Spalding intimidates me. Is it easy to implement? Is there any hand holding or will I need to learn to "swim" on my own? What about for a 6yo? We're about half way through OPGTR with her, but I'm feeling like maybe stepping back and going back theprough two letter vowel pairs. Penmanship for both would be welcome. Does Spalding use cursive first like LOE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirstenhill Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I wouldn't discount LoE just because the grammar portion isn't a good fit. Even though the grammar takes up a lot of the workbook pages, there is a ton of "meat" in the spelling portion, and it stands alone from the grammar. We use only the spelling portion (basically as written) and skip the grammar/composition, and I have seen absolutely huge improvements in my DDs spelling. She also started out above grade level in reading and really, really awful in spelling. We're on our second year of essentials with her, doing the advanced lists. Not that you might not see those same improvements with another program as well, but if you are considering LOE foundations anyway with younger DC, it might be easier for you to just learn one set of spelling rules and phonograms (rather than having to remember the differences in what AAS or Spading teaches compared to LOE). If you are going to do spelling only with LoE Essentials, you can save money by just buying the ebook for the workbook. Since a bulk of the pages are for grammar and composition, you'll only be printing out 2-5 pages per lesson. I have my second student going through essentials now and that is what I am doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 You can quickly work through the program on my how to tutor page, just reading 2 words per section and spelling a few more, focusing on spelling and spelling rules. (Links at end.) http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/howtotutor.html I like Spelling Plus and Spelling Dictation as a follow on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Lol, you had me at $40. I have to admit, though Spalding intimidates me. Is it easy to implement? Is there any hand holding or will I need to learn to "swim" on my own? What about for a 6yo? We're about half way through OPGTR with her, but I'm feeling like maybe stepping back and going back theprough two letter vowel pairs. Penmanship for both would be welcome. Does Spalding use cursive first like LOE? I don't see why Spalding would intimidate you but LOE wouldn't. o_0 Yes, it is easy to implement...but you will need to study the manual first. That's the part that can be tricky, because most of us want to pick up the book today and start teaching tomorrow. :-) What about for a 6yo? Of course you could start with a 6yo. Spalding does not teach cursive first. However, you teach cursive as soon as the dc are doing manuscript well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Join the club. Haha Ok serous hat on... Please try Sequential Spelling. It worked wonders for my son and is now working wonders for my daughter. It's easy to use and inexpensive too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbmamaz Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I think shes' saying she would just skip the grammar lessons from LOE, not the spelling parts. There is a fair amount of grammar in there. I think it would be fine that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terabith Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Take a look at Apples and Pears. I have an almost 9 year old who is probably dyslexic, but who reads above grade level. (Her decoding isn't where I want it to be, but we're plugging along and it's still above grade level and her comprehension is good.) We're using both AAS and Apples and Pears, but honestly, it's hard for her to think about and apply the rules in regular spelling, and she seems to have no ability to learn to spell sight words. Apples and Pears is the first thing we've tried that I've had any real success with. It's painful and very slow going, but there is some improvement, which is more than I can say for anything else we've tried. I do really like AAS, because I think it is important to teach the rules and the "whys," but we weren't making much progress using it alone, especially since it doesn't cover irregular words that are super common until later in the program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifesadream83 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I picked up AAS just before dd turned 9. She is on level 3 now only because we have gone through it slowly. She masters a "step" just about every time we teach it. I plan for her to get through level 3 in 4th grade (this year) then 4 &5 in 5th and 6&7 in 6th. I have no problem with the expense though as I have a little that will use it later and then if I want when I am done I can sell it all. I suck at spelling. I have this desire to give my kiddos the education I wish I had received. I try to look it as more of an investment in her future. Some of the other curriculum I use is insanely priced! Math runs me 230$ a year without manipulatives! So when I think of 7 levels of Spelling costing only 40$ more than that I don't feel so bad. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gratitude Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 My oldest is 10 and is the same way. The spelling improvement I see this year is coming from working more on his writing. He is allowed to ask me to spell any word he doesn't know how to spell when writing and I give it to him so it is written and practiced correctly. Practicing wrong spelling only reinforces it. I am using BJU spelling with him & think the phonics in it help. Working on spelling correctly while writing though I think helps the most. He learns from hearing it correctly when slowed down; writing slows him down on thinking through the words. He reads so incredibly fast and so much he will never learn to spell from his reading alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryAtHope Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Ds can decode words just fine and is a voracious reader, but that doesn't translate to his spelling. I am confident on the reading level as we do periodic oral reading and he has good reading comprehension. There seems to be a disconnect between the reading/spelling skillset for him. This is really common & is why AAR and AAS are separate programs. You might like this article on why they're separate. Yes, you can resell AAS when you are done with it. HTH as you decide which way to go! Merry :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanikit Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I find my DDs spelling is better when she has to practice spelling in context - she does have spelling lists starting this year, but after the pretest she moves straight into dictation. Which is why I would probably recommend AAS (I have not used it, but have looked through it). If you yourself have a very good grasp of the phonics rules required to spell certain words then it is also easier to see where and why your child is struggling - I have seen many people on these boards complain about spelling problems and then when you look at what the child is writing it is clear where the problem is and it is usually that the child is spelling phonetically without knowing what the word should look like - this is perfectly understandable - most of those children need to be taught to write the word, read it back and say: does it look right. If they are not sure then they need to write the word out with all the possible choices for that phonetic sound and then see which one looks right - much of this can only be done correctly if the child is reading enough and has seen the word enough. Other errors are problems with dividing a word into syllables and a lack of understanding of long and short vowels at the end of syllables. This usually needs work apart from just spelling. I think AAS addresses this too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenneinCA Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I did Apples and Pears with my middle child at that age because his spelling was significantly worse than his reading and it was causing him problems. He was ready to work at making spelling better. I didn't use All About Spelling because I was using it with his little brother and I couldn't use the same program with both of them. It worked really well for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbgrace Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I have a nearly 10 year old great reader (phonetic approach) and horrible speller, despite a good OG/rule based spelling approach. We started Apples and Pears Spelling last spring, so late in his 3rd grade year. It has made a world of difference with him. He's just progressed beautifully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnwhitaker Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 We ended up using Spell to Write and Read (SWR). It is also a spinoff of Spaulding. Wanda the lady who wrote it learned from Mrs. Spalding. It does take a little to learn to teach it but it totally worth it. It really makes sense in so many ways. The Manual Ellie told you about and LOE are both good too! I have not tried them personally but I researched a lot. SWR was the one that was in the middle of LOE & Spaldings Manual in my opinion. It has some organization to it but not as much as LOE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalmia Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 My children are also fast, above-average readers and fair to poor spellers. They had memorized all their phonograms and spelling rules and knew how do do the markings from SWR. They were still bad spellers. What helped them encode was the LOE method of breaking down the word into phonograms aloud and using one finger to represent each phonogram before writing it down. My kids HATE this. Hate it. They hate it because it forces them to slow down and actually articulate all the sounds in the word before they write it. They tend to blur all the sounds together toward the end of the word and need to slow.way.down in order to break it apart. But slowing down and going step-by-excruciating-step has been the only thing that has helped improve their spelling. You can see Denise Eide breaking down words in this way in the videos on her YouTube channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamaraby Posted February 16, 2014 Author Share Posted February 16, 2014 This thread has given me much to chew over. I'm probably a natural speller - I know how to spell a word because I can see the word in my mind and just "know," but I can't tell you (or my son) "why." I think that's why something like SWR/LOE/AAS might be a good fit and at the very least this thread has confirmed that. While I decide what to do next, I dowloaded the LOE apps from iTunes. LOE's phonogram app is basically a flash card based thing where Denise gives the sound and accompanying rule (if any) and then the child has to pick the right card. I've also watched a few of the teacher training videos on YouTube for LOE and when ds asks me how something is spelled I do so as Denise does in the videos and in the Doodling Dragons app (which my girls love). I've also been using some of that in the context of Spelling Workout because we have it and I figure it's better than nothing at this point. I'm going to come back later when I have more time because I do have some more specific questions for a few posters, but we need to head out for a birthday celebration for ds (still hard to believe that little baby we brought home from the hospital really is 9 even if it is in the thread title!). I really do appreciate all of the replies - it has been extremely helpful! :0) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbgrace Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 This is a thread about Apples and Pears. I'm quoting from post 3. This was exactly what I found here. The rules and phonograms based approach worked well for my other son, who has a good visual memory for spelling. My weak speller also knew all the phonograms, all the rules, and all the markings. But this wasn't helping him be a good speller. It didn't tell him which (rule following) phonogram to select. Further, a lot of rules taught have quite a number of exceptions. Spelling is not really rule-based. The most basic rules are helpful. The more complicated ones, not so much. The phonics rules are highly regular for decoding for reading, but you cannot rule your way into spelling. For my "rule-oriented" kids, phonics rule-based spelling programs were a disaster b/c they expected to be able to apply rules and spell (like math.) For my kids that simply approach the rules loosely and imprint correct spelling into their memory easily, rule-based spelling programs are great.Spelling ultimately needs to be memorized. Apples and Pears' morpheme and root-construction approach really helped my poorest speller build words in way that lead to long term retention, whereas OG methodology had him writing words multiple phonetically correct ways that still conformed to rules. (why is daughter spelled with augh vs. au? Why is fruit spelled with ui vs. oo? You can't rule your way into the correct phonogram choice.) http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/339611-apples-and-pears/ Apples and pears is a completely different approach, but does teach a few (consistently applicable, helpful) spelling rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamaraby Posted February 16, 2014 Author Share Posted February 16, 2014 I wouldn't discount LoE just because the grammar portion isn't a good fit. Even though the grammar takes up a lot of the workbook pages, there is a ton of "meat" in the spelling portion, and it stands alone from the grammar. We use only the spelling portion (basically as written) and skip the grammar/composition, and I have seen absolutely huge improvements in my DDs spelling. She also started out above grade level in reading and really, really awful in spelling. We're on our second year of essentials with her, doing the advanced lists. Not that you might not see those same improvements with another program as well, but if you are considering LOE foundations anyway with younger DC, it might be easier for you to just learn one set of spelling rules and phonograms (rather than having to remember the differences in what AAS or Spading teaches compared to LOE). If you are going to do spelling only with LoE Essentials, you can save money by just buying the ebook for the workbook. Since a bulk of the pages are for grammar and composition, you'll only be printing out 2-5 pages per lesson. I have my second student going through essentials now and that is what I am doing. It's not the grammar portion isn't a good fit, per se. In fact from the samples, it reads just like FLL. I like FLL so I'm really not looking for a grammar program to be included, if that makes sense. Since FLL/WWE works for us spending $170 on a spelling program that for at least 1/3 of it duplicates what I've already purchased is just more than I'm comfortable with. Does that make sense? I looked at the ebooks, but on the LOE website the Ebooks are the same price as the printed ones. I get that Denise thinks the grammar/writing portion is part of the larger program, but I really do wish that she offered spelling separately much like she does with the "Rhythm of Handwriting." I don't see why Spalding would intimidate you but LOE wouldn't. o_0 Yes, it is easy to implement...but you will need to study the manual first. That's the part that can be tricky, because most of us want to pick up the book today and start teaching tomorrow. :-) What about for a 6yo? Of course you could start with a 6yo. Spalding does not teach cursive first. However, you teach cursive as soon as the dc are doing manuscript well. lol, notice I didn't say my thoughts on Spalding were logical. I was looking at the Spalding website, am I correct in understanding that the only things you'd recommend is the paperback manual which is available from Amazon/Rainbow Resource and the phonogram cards/spelling notebook and not the teacher's books they also sell on the website? Join the club. Haha Ok serous hat on... Please try Sequential Spelling. It worked wonders for my son and is now working wonders for my daughter. It's easy to use and inexpensive too! I guess I don't really get how Sequential spelling is supposed to work. We tried it a bit towards the very beginning of 2nd grade for DS. I had the student book and the teacher guide and we followed along, but I guess I'm just not seeing how it's going to be any better than Spelling Workout. In the end it's just a list of words and while they may are certainly more similar than the words Spelling Workout lists together in a lesson, it just seems like another list of words that one would need to memorize. I picked up AAS just before dd turned 9. She is on level 3 now only because we have gone through it slowly. She masters a "step" just about every time we teach it. I plan for her to get through level 3 in 4th grade (this year) then 4 &5 in 5th and 6&7 in 6th. I have no problem with the expense though as I have a little that will use it later and then if I want when I am done I can sell it all. I suck at spelling. I have this desire to give my kiddos the education I wish I had received. I try to look it as more of an investment in her future. Some of the other curriculum I use is insanely priced! Math runs me 230$ a year without manipulatives! So when I think of 7 levels of Spelling costing only 40$ more than that I don't feel so bad. LOL What I dislike about AAS is that there are so many levels and I can see DS blowing through at least the first few levels lickety split. And yes, it is a cost factor. While I'm not homeschooling on an austere budget (I think it's quite ample), but everything does start to add up and there is a point at which there isn't any money left in the budget for yet another high dollar value subject. If you yourself have a very good grasp of the phonics rules required to spell certain words then it is also easier to see where and why your child is struggling - I have seen many people on these boards complain about spelling problems and then when you look at what the child is writing it is clear where the problem is and it is usually that the child is spelling phonetically without knowing what the word should look like - this is perfectly understandable - most of those children need to be taught to write the word, read it back and say: does it look right. If they are not sure then they need to write the word out with all the possible choices for that phonetic sound and then see which one looks right - much of this can only be done correctly if the child is reading enough and has seen the word enough. Other errors are problems with dividing a word into syllables and a lack of understanding of long and short vowels at the end of syllables. This usually needs work apart from just spelling. I think AAS addresses this too. I watched ds when he was working on his spelling test for the last lesson at the end of the week last week and he does spell phonetically and does write it out, read it back, and then if it looks incorrect he tries as many other variants as he can think of to get it right. I would say about 30-40% of the time he still picks the wrong choice even if phonetically it makes sense. So, maybe spelling is not as much of an issue as I think it is? Maybe we just continue on as we are (correcting spelling in dictation/narration or other writing as we go along) and trust that plus Spelling Workout and ample reading will help him out? I have a nearly 10 year old great reader (phonetic approach) and horrible speller, despite a good OG/rule based spelling approach. We started Apples and Pears Spelling last spring, so late in his 3rd grade year. It has made a world of difference with him. He's just progressed beautifully. That's from Sound Foundations Books, yes? I'm assuming you can only buy it from them? We ended up using Spell to Write and Read (SWR). It is also a spinoff of Spaulding. Wanda the lady who wrote it learned from Mrs. Spalding. It does take a little to learn to teach it but it totally worth it. It really makes sense in so many ways. The Manual Ellie told you about and LOE are both good too! I have not tried them personally but I researched a lot. SWR was the one that was in the middle of LOE & Spaldings Manual in my opinion. It has some organization to it but not as much as LOE. I appreciate your suggestion! :0) This is a thread about Apples and Pears. I'm quoting from post 3. This was exactly what I found here. The rules and phonograms based approach worked well for my other son, who has a good visual memory for spelling. My weak speller also knew all the phonograms, all the rules, and all the markings. But this wasn't helping him be a good speller. It didn't tell him which (rule following) phonogram to select. Further, a lot of rules taught have quite a number of exceptions. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/339611-apples-and-pears/ Apples and pears is a completely different approach, but does teach a few (consistently applicable, helpful) spelling rules. That's interesting. I'm definitely going to put Apples and Pears on the list as a possibility. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I highly recommend AVKO Individualized Spelling. I started using it a little over a year ago. My son could read well, but spelling was not close to his reading skills. I've seen so much improvement! Before that I used Sequential Spelling and Rod and Staff Spelling. I actually wrote a bit about it and took some pictures of what it looked like on by blog earlier this school year. If interested, you can see it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 lol, notice I didn't say my thoughts on Spalding were logical. I was looking at the Spalding website, am I correct in understanding that the only things you'd recommend is the paperback manual which is available from Amazon/Rainbow Resource and the phonogram cards/spelling notebook and not the teacher's books they also sell on the website? In order to teach Spalding, you need the manual (Writing Road to Reading) and a set of phonogram cards; you need the Spalding phonogram cards, not phonogram cards published by other companies, because they might not be the same. Children 8yo and older keep spelling notebooks; children younger than that do not. The teacher guides are very useful in a classroom. They are not necessary for homeschoolers. They don't do any teaching; all of that is in the manual. The teacher guides just help you organize a classroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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