Spy Car Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I'm very interested to see how this "non-debate" hosted by Rick Warren turns out. Anyone else "counting-down" the hours in anticipation? Th Civic Forum may prove to be just another "event" in a long campaign, but my gut instinct makes me think tonight may be a historic moment. In any case I'm interested to hear Mr Warren's line of questioning and both Mr McCain's and Mr Obama's responses. I'm hoping this will prove illuminating. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Probably not. I don't care for Rick Warren, so I'll most likely pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretchen in NJ Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Yes, we will be watching. Bill, could you please remind me of the time? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 16, 2008 Author Share Posted August 16, 2008 Yes, we will be watching. Bill, could you please remind me of the time? Thank you. It will be 5-7 PM PACIFIC TIME. I'm having to rely on watching it via a tiny weird local UHF station (DOC) as we don't have cable. So I'm hoping we have no "troubles". Otherwise a neighbor may find be at the door begging to watch CNN :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NevadaRabbit Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I'm very interested to see how this "non-debate" hosted by Rick Warren turns out. Anyone else "counting-down" the hours in anticipation? Th Civic Forum may prove to be just another "event" in a long campaign, but my gut instinct makes me think tonight may be a historic moment. In any case I'm interested to hear Mr Warren's line of questioning and both Mr McCain's and Mr Obama's responses. I'm hoping this will prove illuminating. Bill I was blissfully? woefully? unaware of the event. Now I have to contend with a sick desire to see how Rick Warren is qualified to moderate a political discussion. Just out of the same sick curiosity, are the "firm boundary between state and religion" people having a conniption about this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli in TN Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I'm very interested to see how this "non-debate" hosted by Rick Warren turns out. Anyone else "counting-down" the hours in anticipation? Th Civic Forum may prove to be just another "event" in a long campaign, but my gut instinct makes me think tonight may be a historic moment. In any case I'm interested to hear Mr Warren's line of questioning and both Mr McCain's and Mr Obama's responses. I'm hoping this will prove illuminating. Bill I am very interested in this event. I am saddened that this is something else we will miss since we decided to pull the plug on the cable. Do you know if it might be available on the internet? I do like Rick Warren and I think his line of questioning will be revealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 16, 2008 Author Share Posted August 16, 2008 Probably not. I don't care for Rick Warren, so I'll most likely pass. Sometimes I feel like one of the few people in America who's not all that familiar with Rick Warren. I know he wrote a hugely popular book, has a mega-church not all that far from where I live, and that he likes Hawaiian shirts. From the little I've heard him speak he has sounded like a very "reasonable" person, and thoughtful. But as I said my exposure has been quite limited. What's not to like? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli in TN Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I was blissfully? woefully? unaware of the event. Now I have to contend with a sick desire to see how Rick Warren is qualified to moderate a political discussion. Just out of the same sick curiosity, are the "firm boundary between state and religion" people having a conniption about this? They have entered into this voluntarily, so I doubt it qualifies as an issue in the separation between church and state. I don't think Rick Warren is qualified to moderate a political discussion so I imagine he will be sticking to questions that pertain to personal faith and issues that are of specific interest to people who are interested in faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 16, 2008 Author Share Posted August 16, 2008 I am very interested in this event. I am saddened that this is something else we will miss since we decided to pull the plug on the cable. Do you know if it might be available on the internet? I do like Rick Warren and I think his line of questioning will be revealing. The Saddleback Church site said it will be streamed live on the internet, but as of now offers no "link". I'd like to know too, just in case we can't get in on the local UHF. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli in TN Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Sometimes I feel like one of the few people in America who's not all that familiar with Rick Warren. I know he wrote a hugely popular book, has a mega-church not all that far from where I live, and that he likes Hawaiian shirts. From the little I've heard him speak he has sounded like a very "reasonable" person, and thoughtful. But as I said my exposure has been quite limited. What's not to like? Bill I think he is a reasonable person. I think he loves God and lives his life accordingly. And he pastors a church that grew really big. I don't see anything wrong with any of that. And while I generally don't jump on the latest Christian book craze, it was a pretty good book. I didn't care for all the promotion and themed tie-ins, but most publishers in the Christian market do that. (Just look at the whole Thomas Kincaid empire! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 16, 2008 Author Share Posted August 16, 2008 I was blissfully? woefully? unaware of the event. Now I have to contend with a sick desire to see how Rick Warren is qualified to moderate a political discussion. Just out of the same sick curiosity, are the "firm boundary between state and religion" people having a conniption about this? Well, I can't speak for all those who desire a "firm boundary between state and religion" but that is the camp I'm from, and I believe (hope) this will wonderful opportunity to attempt a conversation that moves beyond "politics" and looks at the deeper beliefs and convictions the candidates hold. I wouldn't (won't) like it if this becomes an inquisition or a demand for a testimony of faith, but I do feel it is very relevant to hear about the candidates' moral and ethical values. And I believe that is what Rick Warren proposes to do, something unlike a typical "political" discussion. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tibbyl Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 No, I will not be watching. A candidate's personal religious belief or his charisma has no bearing on my voting decision. The criteria that do are intelligence, leadership ability, rationality, and positions on important issues. Honestly, questions about personal religious faith seem downright invasive and nosy, and my hat would be off to any politician with the chutzpah to say so. But frankly anyone who proclaimed such probably would not get elected. I do not see why supporters of separation of church and state would object to tonight's dog and pony show. Are government funds being used? I assumed it was your average privately-financed phony stage show. On a sidenote, I first heard term "Warrenize" when traditionalists at our local mega Southern Baptist suburban church were upset over what they deemed to be modernization of services. I guess you've made the big time when someone sticks an -ize at end of your name to make a verb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli in TN Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 The Saddleback Church site said it will be streamed live on the internet, but as of now offers no "link". I'd like to know too, just in case we can't get in on the local UHF. Bill Thank you! I will keep checking the site today to see if they add a link. I think Rick Warren is a great choice for something like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 16, 2008 Author Share Posted August 16, 2008 A candidate's personal religious belief or his charisma has no bearing on my voting decision. The criteria that do are intelligence, leadership ability, rationality, and positions on important issues. Honestly, questions about personal religious faith seem downright invasive and nosy, and my hat would be off to any politician with the chutzpah to say so. But frankly anyone who proclaimed such probably would not get elected. I respect what your saying. And part of my often two-sided nature would tend to agree, still, especially at a time when both candidates are likely "misunderstood" by large portions of the American public I think this may be a valuable evening. I'm hoping this is an opportunity to hear about issues and look at the candidate's characters in a "reasonable" setting. This is my hope anyway We'll see. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parabola Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 No, I will not be watching. A candidate's personal religious belief or his charisma has no bearing on my voting decision. The criteria that do are intelligence, leadership ability, rationality, and positions on important issues. Honestly, questions about personal religious faith seem downright invasive and nosy, and my hat would be off to any politician with the chutzpah to say so. But frankly anyone who proclaimed such probably would not get elected. I do not see why supporters of separation of church and state would object to tonight's dog and pony show. Are government funds being used? I assumed it was your average privately-financed phony stage show. I rarely do this, but :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretchen in NJ Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I am a political junkie. This style of debate/townhall meeting is new and could prove very interesting. When I first read NevadaRabbit's post about a a church and state issue, I thought no way. But, I think there might be an issue. It is not from tax dollars being used, but from the church's tax exempt status. On the other hand, both Obama and McCain will be there, so the church is not endorsing one over the other. What does the hive think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigitte Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 If it is over the airwaves or on line, I will watch. It could be interesting.....or not. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 16, 2008 Author Share Posted August 16, 2008 I am a political junkie. This style of debate/townhall meeting is new and could prove very interesting. When I first read NevadaRabbit's post about a a church and state issue, I thought no way. But, I think there might be an issue. It is not from tax dollars being used, but from the church's tax exempt status. On the other hand, both Obama and McCain will be there, so the church is not endorsing one over the other. What does the hive think? Rick Warren has made clear he will not be endorsing either candidate. Somewhat off point to your question, but an interesting side-bar to this story is that the Libertarian candidate Bob Barr is suing in Federal court to be allowed to participate in tonight's event. Some small irony in a candidate who believes in limiting the power of the Federal government, and especially its power over private institutions to use the Federal Court to.... Well who said politics was free of hypocrisy? :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Yes, I'll be watching in spite of the fact that: 1. I don't like Rick Warren (and I'm not a fan of mega churches in general; his in particular). 2. I don't like Barack Obama. 3. I don't like John McCain. Other than that -- LOL -- I'm in! I'm just a political junkie who lives & breathes presidential politics. *sigh* :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretchen in NJ Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Yes, I'll be watching in spite of the fact that: 1. I don't like Rick Warren (and I'm not a fan of mega churches in general; his in particular). 2. I don't like Barack Obama. 3. I don't like John McCain. Other than that -- LOL -- I'm in! I'm just a political junkie who lives & breathes presidential politics. *sigh* :lurk5: :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFP Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I'll be watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NevadaRabbit Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Just out of the same sick curiosity, are the "firm boundary between state and religion" people having a conniption about this? I think this came across more, um, irritably than I meant! I just was thinking about whether non-religious people were concerned about "America's pastor" interviewing the pres. candidates. Sorry if my question seemed snotty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam "SFSOM" in TN Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I think this came across more, um, irritably than I meant! I just was thinking about whether non-religious people were concerned about "America's pastor" interviewing the pres. candidates. Sorry if my question seemed snotty! I think the candidates can choose whomever they like to interview them. Or accept this or that debate invitation that they deem prudent. If Warren was appointed by the government to interview them, that would be quite another thing. The US is a religion-loving nation. And sorta kinda still a "free country." He's touted as America's pastor? Interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 16, 2008 Author Share Posted August 16, 2008 I think this came across more, um, irritably than I meant! I just was thinking about whether non-religious people were concerned about "America's pastor" interviewing the pres. candidates. Sorry if my question seemed snotty! It didn't seem a bit snotty to me Jill. Quite to the contrary, in fact. I'd be more than willing to admit that it *might* concern me under different circumstances. But in the present context, I personally am happy these conversations will be taking place. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretchen in NJ Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I think this came across more, um, irritably than I meant! I just was thinking about whether non-religious people were concerned about "America's pastor" interviewing the pres. candidates. Sorry if my question seemed snotty! I thought it was thought provoking. It got me to thinking.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashleen Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Rick Warren is "America's pastor" now? I thought Billy Graham was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NevadaRabbit Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 He's touted as America's pastor? Interesting. I frankly forget who dubbed him thus - but that certainly doesn't mean he speaks for me as my pastor. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam "SFSOM" in TN Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Rick Warren is "America's pastor" now? I thought Billy Graham was. He's America's pastor emeritus. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I frankly forget who dubbed him thus - but that certainly doesn't mean he speaks for me as my pastor. :001_smile: Amen to that. And, Amen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli in TN Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Okay, I should not be asking this, I really should not. But I cannot stop myself. Why does hive dislike Rick Warren? What did he do wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I'm very interested to see how this "non-debate" hosted by Rick Warren turns out. Anyone else "counting-down" the hours in anticipation? Yes, I'm counting down the hours :) I watched all the debates before the primaries. We love politics here. We are the only 2 people we know (dh & me) who watch The McCloughlin Report on Friday nights. We'll come home early on date night to watch it. Nerdy, I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 16, 2008 Author Share Posted August 16, 2008 Okay, I should not be asking this, I really should not. But I cannot stop myself. Why does hive dislike Rick Warren? What did he do wrong? I'm curious about this too. Bill (who thought Rick Warren was "super-popular" :confused:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Okay, I should not be asking this, I really should not. But I cannot stop myself. Why does hive dislike Rick Warren? What did he do wrong? Personally, I don't think HE did anything wrong. It was all the folks who took his ideas for church growth and CRAMMED them down the throats of their local church membership. Been there, Experienced that. NO MORE Saddleback discipleship for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abreakfromlife Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 You know, I used to really dislke him. And I haven't even read PDL. I really felt like he was watering down the gospel and trying to be all feel-goody guy that everyone likes. Then I accidentally watched an interview of him on Charlie Rose - I think it's on YouTube. I was watching it for Greg Boyd's interview with Rose, and Warren just happened to be on first. I was really impressed, and I felt bad that I had judged Warren so harshly. I still am not all that thrilled with everything PDL and how people cling to that and quote that instead of the Bible. But after hearing it from his POV - He really has a full grasp and love of the gospel and PDL was his attempt to distill the main points for people. I think all of the 'PDL everything' has kind of spiraled out of control, and I don't think Warren really has any control over the people that like to quote PDL more than the Bible. I think it's human nature to try and do the easiest thing instead of really grasping with the hard concepts in the Bible. But I think it's unfair to fault Warren for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 16, 2008 Author Share Posted August 16, 2008 Personally, I don't think HE did anything wrong. It was all the folks who took his ideas for church growth and CRAMMED them down the throats of their local church membership. Been there, Experienced that. NO MORE Saddleback discipleship for me. Is this what is called "seeker-friendly" or am I mixing up the church growth strategies? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli in TN Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 You know, I used to really dislke him. And I haven't even read PDL. I really felt like he was watering down the gospel and trying to be all feel-goody guy that everyone likes. Then I accidentally watched an interview of him on Charlie Rose - I think it's on YouTube. I was watching it for Greg Boyd's interview with Rose, and Warren just happened to be on first. I was really impressed, and I felt bad that I had judged Warren so harshly. I still am not all that thrilled with everything PDL and how people cling to that and quote that instead of the Bible. But after hearing it from his POV - He really has a full grasp and love of the gospel and PDL was his attempt to distill the main points for people. I think all of the 'PDL everything' has kind of spiraled out of control, and I don't think Warren really has any control over the people that like to quote PDL more than the Bible. I think it's human nature to try and do the easiest thing instead of really grasping with the hard concepts in the Bible. But I think it's unfair to fault Warren for that. This is kind of how I see it. I don't Rick Warren has control over the marketing gurus in Christian publishing. And if a pastor decides to make the local church a PDL franchise, that really is not Rick Warren's fault either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abreakfromlife Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I found the video if anyone was dying of curiosity :lol: The Greg Boyd part is really good, too. Charlie Rose interviews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli in TN Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Is this what is called "seeker-friendly" or am I mixing up the church growth strategies? Bill I attend a seeker-friendly church. We use upbeat music with a modern sound, lots of audio-visual presentations, humor, casual dress, a coffee shop, etc. to appeal to a broader crowd of people. We strive to create an environment where people who have been uncomfortable in the thraditional church can find a safe haven where they will be loved and accepted no matter where they are in their spiritual growth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 16, 2008 Author Share Posted August 16, 2008 I attend a seeker-friendly church. We use upbeat music with a modern sound, lots of audio-visual presentations, humor, casual dress, a coffee shop, etc. to appeal to a broader crowd of people. We strive to create an environment where people who have been uncomfortable in the thraditional church can find a safe haven where they will be loved and accepted no matter where they are in their spiritual growth. Is Rick Warren's church similar? Was he a pioneer in developing this style, or is his church somehow different? Sorry for the "dumb" questions. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alenee Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Is this what is called "seeker-friendly" or am I mixing up the church growth strategies? Bill I would say yes, having experienced the whole "Purpose Driven Campaign" at my previous church. To answer Kelli, I didn't like that in PDL, he had to use 10 different versions of the bible to say one thing. IMO, It became twisted so badly that the original point was missing entirely. I also don't like his P.E.A.C.E. plan. It borders, if not goes right over into the territory of completely non-biblical. I don't think I'm saying that the way my mind has it processed. The bible clearly states that the way to Heaven is narrow. We will never be at peace with the whole world until Jesus returns. That's not to say that we shouldn't spread the love of Christ to all nations. Not saying that at all. But as you sift through Warren's plan, it just doesn't hold, biblically speaking. I watched my church go from clearly speaking the bible truths in love, to using the "Purpose Driven Church" plans. The bible was all but lost in the sermons as "business plans" were implemented. People's "felt needs" were being spoken to, rather than clearly speaking truth. I've heard from many on this topic and the one that comes across nearly every time is that when we began the book we thought WOW! But then we got into it some more and had a feeling "something just ain't right here!" By the end, most I've heard from dropped it like a hot potato and went back to the bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alenee Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I attend a seeker-friendly church. We use upbeat music with a modern sound, lots of audio-visual presentations, humor, casual dress, a coffee shop, etc. to appeal to a broader crowd of people. We strive to create an environment where people who have been uncomfortable in the thraditional church can find a safe haven where they will be loved and accepted no matter where they are in their spiritual growth. I think this is awesome and visited a church like this recently. They're motto was something like "a comfortable environment". They're sermons were not meaty however the bible was clearly spoken. It's when church's forget that we cannot save people, only the Truth can, that sends the wrong message. This is what I found when reading PDL. There are all sorts of ways to speak the Truth in a non-threatening environment w/o losing sight of Jesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli in TN Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I would say yes, having experienced the whole "Purpose Driven Campaign" at my previous church. By the end, most I've heard from dropped it like a hot potato and went back to the bible.[/QUOTE] While our church is seeker-friendly, our pastor refuses to follow the "plan" of any other teacher. He prays, he studies the Bible and he preaches and teaches as God leads. If we have themes in our church, they are unique to our church. (Sometimes we have series, like a series on family life, or something like that). He will use references from pop culture to drive the point home, but our church does not follow trends. Pastor (we call him Pastor, he has an actual name but we don't use it much) makes a point NOT to follow trends. What God has given for one church is not what God has given for another. Each church should be seeking God's direction for themselves. I think one can read books about church life and not incorporate them into the church. Is it really Rick Warren's fault that churches latched onto this and put the Bible aside? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli in TN Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I think this is awesome and visited a church like this recently. They're motto was something like "a comfortable environment". They're sermons were not meaty however the bible was clearly spoken. It's when church's forget that we cannot save people, only the Truth can, that sends the wrong message. This is what I found when reading PDL. There are all sorts of ways to speak the Truth in a non-threatening environment w/o losing sight of Jesus. Our motto is "Changing lives to change our world" but our mission statement is "All ________&_________ churches are called to be places of supernatural power; impacting the world, showing unconditional love, reaching the lost, and bringing all people to a maturity in Jesus Christ through obedience to His Holy Word". As PariSarah said in another thread, if you visit our church we are going to go all Jesus on ya'. But first we are going to treat you to a Famous Amos cookie baked in our Famous Amos cookie oven and have our cafe hostess fix you a cappucino. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I will be watching. I'm already bracing myself for both candidates to tell me how important God is in their lives, how spiritually and morally sound they are and all that jazz. Really, that's the least appealing part of the forum. Otherwise, I'm looking forward to seeing the candidates side by side. I am one of the great undecideds and I'll jump on any chance to see both of these candidates in the same forum. The biggest bummer is that my dh is teaching tonight, so we won't be able to watch together. No tivo for us : ( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alenee Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Is it really Rick Warren's fault that churches latched onto this and put the Bible aside? I would say yes, and no. Yes because imo, he presents a "plan" that does not seem biblically grounded and as a teacher of the Word, he should be doing just that. No in that each teacher of the Word should sift everything through the Word before they preach it. There's a fictional book, I can't remember the name of it...I'll post it if I remember but the basic story line seemed as if someone was prophesying what has happened with Rick Warren's church w/o the major fallout that happens in the book. A simple pastor, son of a "Great" pastor (who imo sounds A LOT like Rick Warren) tried to follow in his father's hallowed footsteps. He takes a small falling apart church and makes it into a "Saddleback". Slowly but surely the Word stopped being preached, money was being laundered by the folks on the treasury, monuments were being built in the name of Jesus but having nothing to do with Jesus, songs proclaiming Jesus' love, death, resurrection stopped being sung, the pastor cheats on his wife....only to find out that the "hallowed father" was not following the Word at all and the son's life falls apart as well as the son's church. It's a riveting story and a great reminder that the Truth should be central to all we do as the body of Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I'm saying this as gently as I can, as I don't want to offend anyone or come across as judgmental or insulting. Coffee and cookies are fine. My issue with RW and the whole "seeker sensitive" trend is that, from what I've observed, it waters down the gospel, pushing it aside almost to cater to the PC feelings of the general public. And, yes, I believe that since RW started it, marketed it, promoted it, that if other churches follow it, it IS his fault, to a degree. If he sets himself up as a leader, gets others to follow, then he does have a responsibility for that. Don't misunderstand me; I am all for helping others find Christ. My church has outreach ministries and has two more in the works. To me, though, the watering down of the gospel and creating an environment that resembles a country club takes away from the reverence (I feel) should be present when one attends church. We're there to worship and praise and holy and sovereign God. And, to me, I'd rather someone feel uncomfortable with God's word, clearly presented, if what's presented is straight from the Word. Often I'm uncomfortable with it. That's because I'm a sinner and that discomfort is the holy spirit's conviction. I don't go to church to feel good about God or myself; I go to worship Him, praise Him, serve where I can and get fed. And, I don't hate RW. I don't like this church trend he's promoting, but I'm going to assume the best and think that his motives are pure and his desire is to truly honor God. I just think he's misguided in his methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alenee Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I'm saying this as gently as I can, as I don't want to offend anyone or come across as judgmental or insulting. Coffee and cookies are fine. My issue with RW and the whole "seeker sensitive" trend is that, from what I've observed, it waters down the gospel, pushing it aside almost to cater to the PC feelings of the general public. And, yes, I believe that since RW started it, marketed it, promoted it, that if other churches follow it, it IS his fault, to a degree. If he sets himself up as a leader, gets others to follow, then he does have a responsibility for that. Don't misunderstand me; I am all for helping others find Christ. My church has outreach ministries and has two more in the works. To me, though, the watering down of the gospel and creating an environment that resembles a country club takes away from the reverence (I feel) should be present when one attends church. We're there to worship and praise and holy and sovereign God. And, to me, I'd rather someone feel uncomfortable with God's word, clearly presented, if what's presented is straight from the Word. Often I'm uncomfortable with it. That's because I'm a sinner and that discomfort is the holy spirit's conviction. I don't go to church to feel good about God or myself; I go to worship Him, praise Him, serve where I can and get fed. And, I don't hate RW. I don't like this church trend he's promoting, but I'm going to assume the best and think that his motives are pure and his desire is to truly honor God. I just think he's misguided in his methods. :iagree: And as I was cooking, I thought, "gee, I bet there are some who think I sound super judgemental." I don't judge him for who he is, but we all have every right to judge what he says and does to the degree that we decide whether or not to emulate that teaching. We are taught in the bible to test the fruit. I would be glad to love him right where he is and would even care for him if the Lord led me to it. But I also have to be "on my guard" against false teachers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Carli, it won't let me rep you any more, but to answer your question, SURE! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alenee Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 Carli, it won't let me rep you any more, but to answer your question, SURE! LOL SWEET! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 16, 2008 Author Share Posted August 16, 2008 Seven minute warning!!! :auto: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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