Math ....experienced moms please

[...................]

So,  this year has been a bad math year for my 6th grader.  We started off with Saxon....he has been doing Saxon since 2nd grade and did wonderfully until 6/5.  He had some real bumps in the road halfway through 6/5 but after backing up several times, in the end, had a fairly good grasp on the material.  

 

Around lesson 35 of Saxon 7/6 this year he was so bogged down by the repetitive review and long, long lessons, that I decided to look around and see what else was out there.  We tried AOPS, and were extremely excited about the idea, but found it completely overwhelming in the style of presentation and how completely different it was from traditional math.  Although my son is very intelligent he does not want to make math a daily puzzle to figure out, and I knew that I did not have the guts to push through AOPS.  That was about 3 weeks.

 

Then we tried the new Prentice Hall Middle School Math.  The presentation was OK, but the fact that there was no solutions manual was a huge problem.  I think there is one on the CD that comes with it, but we didn't have a disc drive at the time and it was just cumbersome.  THe lessons were taking just as long as Saxon, so we figured, "why bother with a cumbersome program if it has all the same negatives of Saxon?"   So we lost about 2 weeks there too.

 

So, we went back to Saxon (now as you see, we lost about 5-6 weeks of momentum) and my son is doing OK.  He doesn't totally hate it, but he's not really scoring well on his tests. The lessons are extremely, extremely long.

 

The problem with Saxon is not that it isn't working for him...he pretty much grasps the info.  It's more that the long long lessons and variety make his attention to detail go down the drain.  If you ask him to do ten problems perfectly, he could.  But if you ask him to do a whole Saxon lesson (about 40 problems), many, many of them will contain errors.  Then, by the time we grade them together in the evening, he has no idea why he got them wrong.

 

My sister is willing to send me her Teaching Textbooks 7. (where he placed in the placement test) We bought the book which arrived yesterday, and it looks so great! It looks so much friendlier and it makes more sense.  There are 26 problems every day, of which 4 are optional.  So, if the student is really grasping the new material, there are even less problems every day.  As few as 22.  I believe, that with the computer presentation, and the shorter review sets, we could put more brain power into them and therefore achieve a better accuracy.  Plus, with the computer program, he gets immediate feedback and help on problems he misses, rather than waiting until the evening to look it over.

 

However, I am afraid to switch again.  But- if we do, and this works....it would be such a huge blessing to have a math program that is more friendly, more mastery based, and even grades itself.  

Should I start TT next week or stick with Saxon?

[RootAnn]

:lol:  You already switched your sig. 

 

What does HE want to do?

 

Do you teach him each lesson? (Or, does he have a DVD teacher?) Can you sit with him for the lesson? Then, you could catch his errors as he makes them and talk him through the problems.

 

I didn't vote, because I'd go for Option 3 - Other. I think you should give Saxon some more time, but do it differently. If you don't already teach him each lesson (or have a DVD teacher), I'd do that. Then, I'd sit with him while he goes through each problem. Check them as he finishes and if he gets it wrong, help him to fix it and then find another one like it to do. If he gets it right, move on. Rinse. Wash. Repeat. If he is getting them correct, find the 'review' problems and do those. (I know you aren't supposed to skip problems with Saxon. If you feel strongly about that, take the next day and do the rest of them - splitting the lesson into two days until things get easier/better.)

[Chelli]

Is there any way that you can have him not do all the problems?

 

If he can get 10 right, but not 40 because he plays out, then have him do 10. If he misses one of the 10, then have him do 2 more.

 

I guess my suggestion (I've not used Saxon, but used to own some of the books) is if length of the lesson and the amount of problems is causing issues, then cut the amount back.

 

If none of this is helpful because of how Saxon is set up, then please ignore!  :tongue_smilie:

[bethben]

I have sat with my ds who was doing a lot of problems wrong and helped him see the mistake right away. That way, he only did the lesson once instead of twice which he was doing to correct all his mistakes. I like Saxon because it does spiral and helps a student "get bored" with the problems. A bored student really understands the problems. I think some kids like my son miss the details. I also really think those kids need to learn to pay attention to detail.

[Walking-Iris]

I like Saxon, but I don't feel it's necessary to do every single part of the lesson. If he knows his facts, skip the daily facts practice tests, or just give one on those test days. 

 

Skip the blue box mental math as well if you like. 

 

Also I don't wait to "grade", I sit with him or I'm at least nearby either cleaning the kitchen or doing something with my youngers while he does math. It's checked as he's doing it or right after and fixed right then. I feel that letting a kid finish math not knowing there was a mistake and then trying to fix that later when their mind has gone onto other interests is frustrating for them. We check and fix right then before moving on. 

 

I also sit and do every single problem with him in the lesson practice set, and he tries the practice set on his own. 

 

I don't expect him to do them perfectly. He can ask me for help, and occasionally if I don't have any thing else pressing to do I just sit and do the entire lesson with him. 

 

I don't understand how a child could make a lot of errors with Saxon and yet understand the concepts? Either he doesn't understand or he's not paying attention. Or he's not ready for it to be completely independent. 

 

I don't really like the idea of curriculum like TT, because I want to teach my kids math, and do it with them, and help them. If they were left to do it on their own and a computer scored it and all the input from me was checking the scores---I don't see the point. 

 

 

 

 

[robsiew]

1.  If you basically like Saxon and it's just the number of problems just have him do less problems.  We use MUS and MM.  The MUS pages have about 20 problems on them.  That's plenty for my kiddos and the levels they are at (one of my ds does 2 pages a day because he's in a lower level book and the problems go faster).  MM has more problems, but my ds who is using that LOVES math.  If there are too many for my taste I always let him do less.  If he does well he goes on, if he misses some he does some additional problems in front of me so I can see if it was just careless errors or a problem of not understanding.

 

2.  Remember that NO curriculum is going to be perfect.  Yes, some will be easier to teach/learn with than others, but a lot has to do with what YOU as the teacher do with the curriculum.  I always tweak before I ditch.  Identify the real problems and see if you can solve those within Saxon.  If not, TT may be something to try, but realize that program is going to have isses of one sort or another just like the others you have tried. 

 

Hope you find a resolution soon!

[Laura's Haven]

I think every curriculum has definite pros, and cons. That said, I think you have to go with what your heart/gut tells you to.

You could try a few lessons in TT, and see if it is a good fit for your son. Remember, it doesn't have to be all, or nothing. I hope this helps!

[EKS]

I would stick with Saxon for this year, but I would modify it in that I would sit with him while he does the problems.  Any problems that he can do orally, let him do so because it takes far less time.  On the ones that he needs to write out, if he likes it better, have him use a small whiteboard.  Also, if copying the problems from the text is bogging him down, you can do that for him regardless of whether he is using a whiteboard or paper. 

 

Then next year for prealgebra you can switch to something else.

[OneStepAtATime]

Why not do SOME problems from Saxon together (10 or so) each day (as others have suggested) or even every other day and let him do TT, too, maybe 4 days a week?  You aren't paying for the level so it isn't a matter of cost, and the lessons in TT seem to go relatively quickly.  If he runs into trouble in TT you can review with him but he can also look at the video solutions and can correct his mistakes right away, which would give him a feeling of independence without you having to sit with him for ALL of his math curriculum, but doesn't put him in the position of having to wait hours for your feedback.  TT may not be rigorous enough entirely by itself, but it does present math in a format that many children seem to really relate to and have enthusiasm for.  In other words, you could still continue Saxon, too, just do a limited number of problems.  If you feel he is struggling in an area for either curriculum, then working with you and seeing the presentation in a different way from the other curriculum may help get him over the hump.

[Classically Minded]

I personally had Saxon in private school and am using it with my dd.  I would say to stick with Saxon because in my opinion, there is no other that compares.  The phrase goes, if your child does Saxon, they will KNOW math!!   I also recommend using Saxon Teacher Cd's for the lessons, they go over each problem if he has trouble understanding why he missed something.

[kiana]

I would switch. I think the immediate feedback would help him a lot.

 

Another option could be to continue with Saxon, but have him bring the problems to you for grading after doing 5-10. It would break it up and help stop him from getting into a rut.

 

I would not just start cutting problems out from Saxon as so much of the learning is in the problem set.

[5LittleMonkeys]

If he has made it that far in Saxon and is understanding then I would NOT switch over to TT.  You'd end up loosing ground.    I agree with the others that suggest changing the way you do Saxon with him.  I probably shouldn't say this since I can't provide the link to the information, but I KNOW I've read where the authors of Saxon have said that they never intend for average students to have to complete every single math problem on the page.  There is an abundance of problems there for those that struggle and for additional problems you may need for review. 

 

I'd do evens or odds or set the timer for the amount of time you feel is reasonable to work on math and when the timer goes off he's done for the day.  In addition, I'd hover and check as he goes.  

[...................]

I think every curriculum has definite pros, and cons. That said, I think you have to go with what your heart/gut tells you to.

You could try a few lessons in TT, and see if it is a good fit for your son. Remember, it doesn't have to be all, or nothing. I hope this helps!

Hi!!!!! 😉

[Laura's Haven]

Hi!!!!! 😉

Hello!!! :-D

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I have been having a similar struggle this year with math. We started off with Saxon (California Intermediate 5) and then switched to California Math (MacMillan McGraw Hill) and now we are back with Saxon (just started back on it today after a 2 month detour through CA Math). We also have an old copy of Saxon 76 65 (edited for correction) which we could go back to, but I just don't know. I am no help and couldn't vote since I know nothing about TT but I wanted to commiserate with you! :grouphug:

[...................]

OK, so before I send the TT books back, I am going to give Saxon another try in a new way.  I'll sit with him through the entire thing today and see how it goes.  It should take about an hour of my time.  Unfortunately my dd is also learning some challenging new material in her Horizons math so she needs direct oversight as well.  

 

Then, after a few days of sitting with him for the whole lesson, I will use the idea of him bringing me the book every 5 problems. In this way he will get faster feedback, and we will also maybe cross out a few problems, as I will be much more familiar with what he's doing well and on what he needs more practice.  

 

Somehow, I need to make the lesson shorter so that he can have better attention to detail, but for now at least much more oversight will be a good thing.

[...................]

I like Saxon, but I don't feel it's necessary to do every single part of the lesson. If he knows his facts, skip the daily facts practice tests, or just give one on those test days. 

 

Skip the blue box mental math as well if you like. 

 

Also I don't wait to "grade", I sit with him or I'm at least nearby either cleaning the kitchen or doing something with my youngers while he does math. It's checked as he's doing it or right after and fixed right then. I feel that letting a kid finish math not knowing there was a mistake and then trying to fix that later when their mind has gone onto other interests is frustrating for them. We check and fix right then before moving on. 

 

I also sit and do every single problem with him in the lesson practice set, and he tries the practice set on his own. 

 

I don't expect him to do them perfectly. He can ask me for help, and occasionally if I don't have any thing else pressing to do I just sit and do the entire lesson with him. 

 

I don't understand how a child could make a lot of errors with Saxon and yet understand the concepts? Either he doesn't understand or he's not paying attention. Or he's not ready for it to be completely independent. 

 

I don't really like the idea of curriculum like TT, because I want to teach my kids math, and do it with them, and help them. If they were left to do it on their own and a computer scored it and all the input from me was checking the scores---I don't see the point. 

 

You can understand the material and make errors because your brain took a vacation 20 minutes ago, due to a super long lesson.  :o)

 

I personally am not a fan of sitting with my kids all day long for math.  If we can't figure out a way to make Saxon math somewhat self-directed but still successful, then I need to admit that and get some kind of CD/DVD/online program.... because I know myself and I know that I will not have the patience to lovingly sit through an hour of math every day.  I will be mean and ugly and it would have been better to switch.  I'd love to say that I am such a patient person that I can sit with my son through every problem for one hour and gently re-direct, re-instruct, and correct as he goes.  But that's just totally not reality.  LOL

[shinyhappypeople]

Well, whatever you do, he'll end up in Pre-Algebra next year, so he won't really be losing any momentum.   Honestly, I'd give TT a try.  I mean, you already have the CDs, right?  May as well test drive them for a few weeks and see what he thinks.   After that many years of Saxon, the different format might be refreshing.  

 

Good luck!   :grouphug:

[Ellie]

Don't skip any problems in Saxon. Ever. Every problem in every problem set has a purpose, and it's far more than just practicing a concept.

 

However, there's nothing wrong with setting a time limit, 45 minutes or so, and telling him that's only as long as he has to work. The next day he picks up where he left off and keeps working.

[mathmarm]

Why not break math into 2 sessions of 40 minutes each? I don't know that skipping problems is the answer and typically I encourage that all problems be solved but not necessarily in one sitting. Maybe do math before and after lunch break?

 

So, do the first half of the lesson, then have lunch, take a short walk, then sit back down and do the rest of the lesson?

 

[Walking-Iris]

A Saxon lesson has never ever taken me an hour. 30 minutes tops has been the most we've spent on Saxon. The investigations take longer. And I didn't suggest sitting there the entire time.

 

I do the first part with my ds. The lesson set, it takes about 5-10 minutes. He does the practice set on his own with me *nearby* doing other things. It's my physical presence that helps my ds. (It's actually my daily routine to clean the breakfast mess in the kitchen while he sits there doing math) If I see that he is dawdling or not moving that pencil or reading that book, it's an obvious cue to me he needs some prodding, and I'll call out "hey bud---how's it going?"

 

Usually he just needs to stop looking out the window or he really needs help and I'll come over and read the problem and ask some leading questions that get him going.

 

IMHO if a lesson is taking that long, that needs to be addressed. I don't really think it should take that long if the child understands it. 

 

You said yourself his "brain took a vacation"---don't let him. I'm all for kids being self directed and independent learners, but if they are still prone to dawdle and daydream switching a curriculum won't help. 

 

 

 

 

[...................]

OK, we did the ENTIRE lesson together today.  We did the mental math, have of the practice set, and the entire Mixed Review, and the whole she-bang took exactly one hour and 5 minutes.  So, sorry but you are wrong about it not needing to take an hour.  We only stopped to discuss a few times and those few times took maybe that last five minutes.  

 

I made sure he wrote neatly, and made sure he set up all problems correctly and showed his work, although i did NOT make him copy every problem before beginning to work...most of the time copying the problem is necessary but sometimes it is not. 

 

He stayed focused and worked very hard, and he really really enjoyed having me there.  AND it's a good thing I was there because there were a few concepts that he really didn't understand.  Moreso, neatness and proper setup is a huge, huge issue.  He had almost no errors on the problems he understood (except of course the 3 that he did not which we stopped to work on.)

 

So, now I know...

 

1.  He needs direct oversight for the next couple of weeks ( am thinking probably this whole month)

2.  We need to do the lesson and Lesson Practice together permanently(and skip if there are too many just like Art Reed suggests)

3.  For my son, Saxon should take about one full hour to do a good, neat job, even up to one hour and 5 minutes - and that includes no dawdling. 

 

And, after this month, if he seems ready, we will move to the suggestion of checking every five problems with me, because honestly I just think he needs more immediate feedback.

 

My son is very good at independent learning. (he teaches himself college level programming books all the time.)  He is in a rut with math, and it's my job to help get him out of it...whatever that takes.   :thumbup1:

 

[Walking-Iris]

OK, we did the ENTIRE lesson together today.  We did the mental math, have of the practice set, and the entire Mixed Review, and the whole she-bang took exactly one hour and 5 minutes.  So, sorry but you are wrong about it not needing to take an hour.  We only stopped to discuss a few times and those few times took maybe that last five minutes.  

 

 

 

Well I don't think I'm "wrong." I'm not imagining how long it takes us to do it. Do keep in mind that kids are different and your child is older than mine and likely doing more complex math. Who's to say that 7th grade math will takes us longer? Sorry if I'm offending, just trying to help.

 

I'm glad you got a plan and it's working for you.