Catholic Homeschoolers...Tell Your Story?

[Saille]

A Catholic tutoring student who attended a parochial high school asked me if all homeschoolers weren't extremely evangelical Christians (she did not phrase it this politely). I said that I knew homeschoolers from all walks of life, and that I'd actually come across many Catholic homeschoolers. Her response? "Yeah, but those are probably, like, Catholics who actually *read* the Bible. I go to Catholic *school*, and we *never* read the Bible." (Emphasis hers.)

 

Now, I freely admit that being an underachiever in a talented family is her schtick (she's very, very intelligent), but that comment was really interesting to me, because:

 

1. It's consistent with the experiences of various friends and family who've attended Catholic schools in more recent years. (One generation back, the stories seem to be a bit different.)

 

2. It made me think about Catholic homeschooling much more than I had previously.

 

I remembered it this afternoon as I was reading portions of the Catechism of the Catholic Church over on the "Legislating Faith" thread. It shocks me that I went to CCD from early days up through high school, and no one ever sat me down and made me learn the actual catechism. We had slick workbooks, though. :lol:

 

So now I'm really curious. Catholicism is a big issue in my family. (And I think it's only fair to mention that I haven't been a practicing Catholic for almost twenty years.) My mom is adamant that everyone in our family be Catholic, to the point of causing some very hurt feelings among my dad's Presbyterian family and causing some schisms in our nuclear family group. My mother's mother was a charter member of her Methodist Church, and we never, ever saw the inside of it (nor did any of her three children) until her funeral. She went to church alone every week, all her life. So, with all this seriousness going on, I'm flummoxed, because I'm positive my mom has no clue, nor did it occur to her to check, whether I was even aware of the catechism. And my next thought was that I can't imagine that being the norm for Catholic hs'ers on this board.

 

So I guess I'm interested in hearing about the whys and wherefores of Catholic homeschooling from Catholic homeschoolers...I suspect there's a rich fabric of story and method out there among WTM members that would be fascinating to read, if you have time to share, and I'd like to hear that different perspective.

 

Thanks in advance!

[8filltheheart]

Our generation has suffered greatly from the chaos caused from Vatican II. (BTW, this is not restricted to us......it has occurred after every significant ecumenical council from what I have read)

 

When I started homeschooling our oldest 15 yrs ago, I was reading from his KINDERGARTEN catechism and read things I didn't know!! Whoa......I knew that was bad!!

 

I had never heard of the catechism (though my older siblings could all quote the Baltimore catechism....it was out of "mode" by the time I was school age). My CCD classes consisted of totally generic Christianity that was mostly about the fact that Jesus loved me and never about Catholicism.

 

I started studying the teachings of the Church very seriously that yr I read my ds's book. I still feel ignorant in huge portions of the faith, but I am still working on it.

 

As far as the child's comments.....there is definitely diviciveness within the Catholic church. There are very ill feelings from those that dissent from Church teaching and want the Church to be run like a democracy toward Catholics who follow the teachings of the Magisterium.

 

It is sad. But, things are recovering. More and more Catholics are learning about the faith. More and more books that are written in lay language are being published. I see nothing but hope and growth in the future. (I moved from a diocese that was one of the most conservative in the country and we had so many priests being ordained yrly that our diocese was always lending priests to other dioceses......growth comes from orthodoxy, not "anything goes.")

[Renee in NC]

extremely evangelical Christians (she did not phrase it this politely).

 

This was me.

 

Catholics who follow the teachings of the Magisterium

 

This is me now.;)

 

I don't know many homeschooling Catholics in real life, but the ones I do know are the "follow the teachings" type. I imagine they read Scripture because they go to Mass and the liturgy cycles through the whole Bible in three years. We read Scripture outside of Mass as well, and I will continue to do so. This is my Protestant background coming through, though.:D

 

According to my brother (another convert, but he was Presby) who is Youth Director in a large parish, Catholic education is terrible and both the schools and the family are failing to pass on the faith. I will have to ask about the Faith Formation classes in his parish because the Director of Faith Formation is also a convert (former Episcopal!)

[Laura K (NC)]

:)

 

This is a hot button with me.

 

In any tradition you are going to have several subgroups.

1. Those who have a basic understanding of the salvific work of Christ but not a great understanding of the whys and wherefores of the catechism. These can be divided further into

a. those who have a great interior prayer life and who "live the gospel," and

b. those who don't pray much and who are more or less charitable.

 

2. Those who are theological "hobbyists." These will study on their own, lead Bible studies and Sunday School classes, and haunt internet religious discussions.

 

3. Those who are theology students. These will study with even more intensity. These are the folks who really know their stuff and to whom we can turn when we have questions.

 

Most Catholics, most Baptists, most Orthodox, most Methodists, most (insert your denomination here) fall into the #1 camp. We all know Catholics who don't read a Bible daily, because most Christians honestly don't read their Bibles daily. That's a generalization that I think holds water.

 

Now, my beef with the whole issue is with those in Camp #1 who believe that the basic belief is just fine and dandy, and one never can get a benefit from growing further in understanding, from praying more, from reading the Bible more. It is an especial beef of mine when these people are educators in Catholic schools or who direct faith formation programs or are priests. :banghead::cursing: (deep breath) I'm struggling with my own feelings right now on the subject.

 

We don't need knowledge to get to Christ. There's a risk of the heresy of gnosticism and Pelagianism there. BUT there are different ways to grow in faith, and there are benefits of knowledge insofar as it advises the conscience (how can you know what's right and wrong unless you know what's right and wrong?) But if one desires to live with Christ forever in the communion of saints, it seems like there would be some sort of desire to know a little bit more about Him by consulting what has been revealed about Him, just like if your child wanted to go to college, he would find out something about dorm life, what college classes will be like, what the atmosphere will be, and so on. It's natural for us to want to know... we are "homo sapiens," "thinking man." If we're not thinking about our faith, we're thinking about something else. It's sort of like how my boys used to remember Pokemon statistics, but they just couldn't see how they could memorize the multiplication table.

 

There's a chance, in my own fever about the topic, that I've misunderstood your question. Please let me know!

[Sugarfoot]

You know, I seem to remember reading something years ago about the homeschool movement in America starting with Catholics who were unhappy with the "secularization" of the Catholic schools. I wish I could remember more details. I didn't go to Catholic school, but I had friends who did. I think it varies---greatly!---from school to school. And, like with any group, it varies from student to student, as well. I know families who read the Bible with their children, pray fervently, and attend church regularly every weekend and on Holy Days. Then there are others who don't really do any of those things. All of them would say that they're Catholic. But you know, I know non-Catholic Christians who fall into the exact same categories, and yes, they all say that they're Christians. It's not my place to judge anyone. I want our faith to be the center of our life, and I feel like I fail in that everyday.

 

So, in our home and "school," yes, we read the Bible. We pray and study the saints so that we can know the history of our great faith. I'd love for us to go to daily Mass, but I haven't figured out the logistics of that, yet.:) We do our diocese's religious ed. at home for a couple of reasons. It's hard to imagine that in a Catholic high school, they wouldn't even be reading the day's scriptures.

 

Peace to you!

[Parrothead]

I can tell you about my experience as my parish's PCL - a new name for DRE. The workbooks for CCD are awful. I can't find anything else. They are spiral in nature and do expound over and over, year after year Jesus loves me, the Nativity and lent.

 

Another thing I think has bearing on the situation is how hard it is to find volunteers. The ones I can get don't want to do any more than the workbook. Our diocese follows the Restored Order of administration of the Sacraments. By the end of 2nd grade the kids receive First Reconciliation, First Communion and are Confirmed. Confirmation is still looked at as "graduation." I've got one family that refused to send their kid until 2nd grade. Once he "graduated" we haven't seen him or the family again. This kid may show up again for the sacrament of marriage (or holy orders) but I doubt it.

 

Twice now, I've tried to put together an adult class. I've had to shelve it because of lack of participation.

 

So, yeah, I can see why few Catholics put much emphasis on learning the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They have learned from childhood that it isn't important.

 

In our Catholic homeschool I set aside time for Bible stories, stories of the saints and the catechism. We also have a once a month 1 decade of the Rosary. I also try to teach dd the common prayers - Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be, Prayer to Guardian Angle, etc.

 

I do use mostly secular materials for all the other subjects. The few times I've tried materials from Catholic homeschooling providers I've come across very soft science books and, again, those spiral slick workbooks. I will, once we finish level 4 of FLL, try to get my hands on reprinted copies of Voyages in English - Catholic school additions to use.

[Philothea]

My hsuband and I completely agree on everything, and had similar experiences growing up.

 

We were both raised in a public school setting. He went to some kind of religion classes, but they mainly involved planning ski trips and such. Mine were more like feel-good sessions. When we became more interested in our Faith, my husband worked for a world-wide Catholic apostolate. I worked in an elected position for my diocese.

 

I would say that our decision to homeschool is mainly based on our experiences growing up. We are firmly dedicated to the Social Kingship of Christ, laid down in Quas Primas.

 

From there, within our marriage, we really take to heart the teachings of Casti Connubi. I think that is why we often could be mistaken for a more conservative Protestant family. With some of our stands on music, TV, modesty, family size etc. people are often shocked to find out that we are Catholic.

 

We have both read Divini Illus Magistri. So we have a very good idea of what kind of education of Catholic children should recieve.

 

From there, our Faith really does encompass how we live, how we dress, and even what we eat on some days. We pray the rosary as a family, read the Bible (Douay-Rheims, of course), and celebrate the feasts of the Church year. I have my children memorize their prayers and we study and memorize the Baltimore Catechism.

[percytruffle]

:)

 

We don't need knowledge to get to Christ. There's a risk of the heresy of gnosticism and Pelagianism there. BUT there are different ways to grow in faith, and there are benefits of knowledge insofar as it advises the conscience (how can you know what's right and wrong unless you know what's right and wrong?) But if one desires to live with Christ forever in the communion of saints, it seems like there would be some sort of desire to know a little bit more about Him by consulting what has been revealed about Him, just like if your child wanted to go to college, he would find out something about dorm life, what college classes will be like, what the atmosphere will be, and so on. It's natural for us to want to know... we are "homo sapiens," "thinking man." If we're not thinking about our faith, we're thinking about something else. It's sort of like how my boys used to remember Pokemon statistics, but they just couldn't see how they could memorize the multiplication table.

 

 

 

 

This is so beautifully said that I just had to comment even though I am not Catholic. Thanks for sharing your insight on this topic.

[Parrothead]

The instructors didn't seem to want to be there.

Yup. I lost one teacher at the end of this year because she wanted to be able to do some traveling on Sundays. I lost to others (man and wife) because they only commit for every other year. I probably won't get them back next year because they separated this summer.

 

We NEVER ever could get a Catholic priest to come there and that was really sad because we had a lot of devout Catholics there who gave a lot their time and heart into their churches when they were younger and well. And there were about 10 Catholic churches in our city of under 60K.

 

This is the first I've heard of that happening. I don't doubt it though because of the lack of people entering Catholic vocations in this country. Our parish shares a priest with another parish. He is constantly :auto: since the two parishes are 50 miles apart.

[8filltheheart]

:)

 

This is a hot button with me.

 

In any tradition you are going to have several subgroups.

1. Those who have a basic understanding of the salvific work of Christ but not a great understanding of the whys and wherefores of the catechism. These can be divided further into

a. those who have a great interior prayer life and who "live the gospel," and

b. those who don't pray much and who are more or less charitable.

 

2. Those who are theological "hobbyists." These will study on their own, lead Bible studies and Sunday School classes, and haunt internet religious discussions.

 

3. Those who are theology students. These will study with even more intensity. These are the folks who really know their stuff and to whom we can turn when we have questions.

 

Most Catholics, most Baptists, most Orthodox, most Methodists, most (insert your denomination here) fall into the #1 camp. We all know Catholics who don't read a Bible daily, because most Christians honestly don't read their Bibles daily. That's a generalization that I think holds water.

 

Now, my beef with the whole issue is with those in Camp #1 who believe that the basic belief is just fine and dandy, and one never can get a benefit from growing further in understanding, from praying more, from reading the Bible more. It is an especial beef of mine when these people are educators in Catholic schools or who direct faith formation programs or are priests. :banghead::cursing: (deep breath) I'm struggling with my own feelings right now on the subject.

 

We don't need knowledge to get to Christ. There's a risk of the heresy of gnosticism and Pelagianism there. BUT there are different ways to grow in faith, and there are benefits of knowledge insofar as it advises the conscience (how can you know what's right and wrong unless you know what's right and wrong?) But if one desires to live with Christ forever in the communion of saints, it seems like there would be some sort of desire to know a little bit more about Him by consulting what has been revealed about Him, just like if your child wanted to go to college, he would find out something about dorm life, what college classes will be like, what the atmosphere will be, and so on. It's natural for us to want to know... we are "homo sapiens," "thinking man." If we're not thinking about our faith, we're thinking about something else. It's sort of like how my boys used to remember Pokemon statistics, but they just couldn't see how they could memorize the multiplication table.

 

There's a chance, in my own fever about the topic, that I've misunderstood your question. Please let me know!

 

While I understand the the gist of what you are saying, but I don't see how anyone can advocate not learning more about why and what they believe.

 

First, the Lord tells us not to be luke warm, lest He spews you out. Anyone who is content with where they are, are not living focused on Christ.......we can always love Him more, we can always serve Him better. Not learning more and being content is going to be following a well-trodden path.

 

Secondly, God created us with free will and reason. Using our intellect and reason to form our judgments means that we will be more able to control our free will. Without knowledge, we can justify all sorts of behaviors based on ignorance. While we definitely are not going to be judged on our knowledge, denying the implication of knowledge on our lives denies one of the gifts that God gave man. We were created differently from other creatures and intellec is one of those differences. It only follows that God expects us to use that gift to serve him. And one way of doing that is by knowing Him as intimately as we are capable.

 

I can't imagine telling someone that they are the center of my life and my life is given to serving them and then never paying any attention to getting to know them. I believe that that is the basis for "presumption," the opposite of the virtue.

[Murphy101]

:D

 

I think these discussions are great. Far too many people talk about Catholics liek they talk about homeschoolers. You know the whole, "I heard about this homeschooler onthe internet or a friend of mine once knew a homeschooler...";)

 

I think homeschooling can go further back than secularization of Catholic schools.... MANY Catholics in early america homeschooled because the only there simply were not any catholic schools at all.

 

I think there's 3 camps of Catholics.

 

1 - trying to be as orthodox as possible and always growing. learning about their faith. I call these Catholic with a capital "C". Some can be rather obnoxious about it with a superior attitude. but most aren't like that. they are too busy being catholic.

 

2 - CINO = catholic in name only. They don't really make any effort to learn or grow in faith. Show up on Sunday to feel good. I think most of them don't want to hear more than the feel good stuff. Learning requires some level of change in them, so they avoid it. They don't want to hear what the Church teaches about marriage, birth control, and Sunday attendence, because then they might have to change something or admit to purposely choosing to do somethng they have been taught is wrong.

 

As a pp noted, this is generally true in ANY religion denomination. Many christians are just going through the motions, not really learning their faith or willing to practice it. I don't think they are horrid people. In fact, I think they live in great fear much of the time.

 

3 - Heretics. There I said it. Catholics who have learned better and do know what the Church teaches and why and purposely try to make others in the church change to suit their selfish needs. These would be catholics that know the truths of the church, refuse to live by them, and try to lead others astray. The organization of excummicated nuns that think women should be allowed to be priests and claim to be ordained is a prime example of this.

 

As for homeschoolers, it used to be they were all very orthodox, but hs-ing is really growing these days. I've heard at least 1 catholic woman say she was hs-ing because she had a disagreement with the way a catholic school taught that people do not become angels when they die and that IVF is sinful (her 1st child was an IVF baby). Me? All I could think was, "WOW you foudn a catholic school with actual catholics teaching catholic doctrine and truths!?!?" I've personally be accused of "being too Catholic". Which just astounds me. Do baptists ever get accused of being too christian/baptist I wonder?:confused: And besides, I really don't consider myself all that great a Catholic. I sweat over my faults just like every other christian.

 

Sadly there's many problems with Catholic schools:

 

1. the staff isn't catholic. how can you expect non-catholics to teach accurately what the church believes?

 

2. those in charge of the running the school lack backbone. they don't want a "too catholic" curriculum or environment because they don't want to "offend or make the non-catholic attending feel uncomfortable". (That's a direct quote from a local catholic school principle I spoke to btw) One should note that the majority of students attending catholics schools are often not catholic, so religious backbone gives way to making money.

 

3. we need nuns and priests to take over Catholic schools again. yeah, some weren't great catholics, but over all it made for a cheaper, more orthodox, more evangelical, higher level of learning. Historicly speaking that is. that's the main reason non-catholics were willing to attend catholic schools - the academics was so far superior as to make it worth the difference of faith and because if was run by nuns and priest, the cost was much less than other schools and often flat out free because the supporting diocese looked at it as a source of evangelising.

 

4. far too many of them are not even under the management of the bishop and or archbishop, which means it's just a private school with a catholic name. Or the bishop is not willing to draw a line in the sand and insist that proper church teachings be taught. They worry about being sued by a teacher union or upseting parents or losing revenue.

 

And yes, I think private schools, catholic or otherwise, often have the same problem as public schools. Many parents presume a LOT about what is or is not being taught and don't over see their child's education. They figure the school "knows best".

[Faithr]

Well, I attended Catholic schools all my life until law school and I can say I didn't learn very much about the Catholic faith that way! This was during the late 60's and 70's. I wound up drifting from Catholicism into agnosticism/atheism for about 10 years before I reverted back (and the reversion itself was a slow process). I think that my real learning in the faith came from my father (who had studied for the priesthood) and my mother who was one of those theology hobbyist who liked to read biographies of the saints and Bible histories and such. She was a daily mass goer. So it was more from my parents modeling than anything I learned.

 

I really think that religion is more often 'caught' not 'taught'. That's where the CCD programs fall down. If the family is practicing and takes living in the faith seriously than the child will be catechized. I have taught CCd for several years and many times the children's family simply drop them off for class but don't actually go to mass, confession or anything. It is really depressing as a teacher to have zilch, zip, zero support from the parents. Here you are, the teacher, talking about the Real Presence and how going to Mass every Sunday is an obligation of the highest order (mortal sin if you don't, right?) and the kids are looking at you like 'why are you wasting my time?' Because, of course, they are being taught the opposite by their parents. It's like the parents are setting all adults up for the legitimate accusation of hypocracy.

 

I really think Catholic churches need to move from the classroom model of CCD where poorly trained/catechized teacher volunteers teach tired, bored kids about the faith their family doesn't follow, to a family model where the church involves the whole family in learning in the form of clubs, retreats, family bible studies etc. Right now so many parents need catechizing that we need to work with them as much as with the children.

[cathmom]

A Catholic tutoring student who attended a parochial high school asked me if all homeschoolers weren't extremely evangelical Christians (she did not phrase it this politely). I said that I knew homeschoolers from all walks of life, and that I'd actually come across many Catholic homeschoolers. Her response? "Yeah, but those are probably, like, Catholics who actually *read* the Bible. I go to Catholic *school*, and we *never* read the Bible." (Emphasis hers.)

 

I think this says more about Catholic school than Catholic homeschooling!

 

 

 

I remembered it this afternoon as I was reading portions of the Catechism of the Catholic Church over on the "Legislating Faith" thread. It shocks me that I went to CCD from early days up through high school, and no one ever sat me down and made me learn the actual catechism. We had slick workbooks, though. :lol:

 

CCD was worthless. I grew up in a primarily Jewish town and I was jealous of my Jewish friends because of Hebrew school. They actually had to work and learn Hebrew. I attended four or five Bar/Bat Mitzvahs, and was so impressed with my friends being able to chant in Hebrew. Can you imagine if Catholic kids had to go to Latin school and learn Latin and the faith in order to be confirmed?!

 

 

I'm flummoxed, because I'm positive my mom has no clue, nor did it occur to her to check, whether I was even aware of the catechism. And my next thought was that I can't imagine that being the norm for Catholic hs'ers on this board.

 

I read through the Baltimore Catechism for the first time with my oldest son when he was in ninth grade. I guess I learned it because I just did an online quiz about how well you know the BC and I got a 100.

 

But growing up Catholic, I had no idea why any of the teachings of the Church were what they were, and that is not for a lack of attendance. I went to Mass every Sunday and CCD all the way through. I remember writing that I wanted to be confirmed because my mother wanted me to be. That's all it meant to me. I did not even understand the teaching of the Real Presence!

 

So I guess I'm interested in hearing about the whys and wherefores of Catholic homeschooling from Catholic homeschoolers...I suspect there's a rich fabric of story and method out there among WTM members that would be fascinating to read, if you have time to share, and I'd like to hear that different perspective.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

My dh and I both grew up Catholic. When our oldest was school-age we didn't want him to go to public school, so we tried to enroll him in our parish's school. That was a horrible experience - just trying to enroll! - and we decided we couldn't let him go there. Suffice to say that the school was more interested in money than in educating Catholic dc. He went to public school for 2 years and then we decided to homeschool.

 

I could recommend several interesting books. Catholic Homeschooling by Dr. Mary Kay Clark (of Seton) gives a fascinating historical perspective about why the public schools were considered dangerous to Catholic students, hence the development of the alternative parochial schools. Now, of course, the parochial schools can be just as bad. I cannot understand why people would pay all that tuition to send their dc to a Catholic school and then have a teacher who is not even Catholic. And then people say to me, "Well, it's always a Catholic teacher who teaches religion!" Catholic schools in many cases do not use Catholic textbooks, do not have Catholic teachers or have Catholic teachers who do not follow the teachings of the Church, etc. In fact, Dr. Clark spent years trying to have parent-run schools and ended up turning to homeschooling because they were too difficult.

 

We used to be the only Catholic homeschoolers in our church, until Drama Queen converted! :lol: However, there is a very active Catholic homeschool group about an hour from me, and it is filled with families who probably do read the Bible and try to live the way the Church teaches. Our bishop gives a Mass for homeschoolers once a year, and last year he stayed at the lunch afterwards for hours talking to the children and meeting people. Ya think he knows where future vocations are coming from???? :D

 

Another issue with Catholic school is its total unaffordability (is that a word?). We have 7 dc. We couldn't even afford to send ONE dc to Catholic school! I heard a lady saying one time that they paid more for the Catholic high school her dd went to than for the college she went to!! Even if you enroll all your dc in Seton, it's only a fraction of the price of Catholic school!

 

Catholic homeschooling is definitely the way to go! Oh, another book I have is called "A Catholic Homeschool Treasury" and it has various essays from different families about how they homeschool.

[amyable]

 

1 - trying to be as orthodox as possible and always growing.

 

This is me now, hopefully without the obnoxious part in your original message, Martha, LOL! :D

 

But it's very hard because I grew up:

2 - CINO = catholic in name only.

My parents took us to church every week, but that's about it.

 

And now my family and friends, unfortunately, are mostly:

3 - Heretics. There I said it. Catholics who have learned better and do know what the Church teaches and why and purposely try to make others in the church change to suit their selfish needs.

although at least my parents seem to be changing after watching us live out our Catholicism (humbly, LOL) through some difficult situations.

 

Honestly, we didn't start out homeschooling for religious reasons. And there are a huge number of things that more devout Catholics do on a regular basis that we just don't for any number of reasons (family rosary, daily mass, celebrating more than the occasional feast day, etc). But we try, and we're growing. I'm learning from my kids' lesson books - I'm one of those poorly Catechized "Jesus Loves Me" girls. :tongue_smilie:

 

I don't put much stock into the local Catholic schools either, after hearing stories about what passes for OK religious teaching (even in other classes like history) by some other homeschoolers who've gone the "Catholic School for High School" route. It's not so much what they miss, as what they add (i.e. a teacher's non-conservative personal opinions).

 

I could probably go on and on, but I'll spare everyone. :001_huh: Gotta take the gang to the orthodontist! Fun! :lol:

[BusyMum]

and came out of the system lukewarm with no real understanding of the doctrine of my faith. It wasn't till I fell in with a group of Catholics who were listening to Scott Hahn's tapes that I came to a new knowledge and appreciation of my faith. I went on to get a degree in theology and become a leader in an active lay movement of the Church.

 

When my son started school I went out and bought the Faith & Life program and afterschooled him in this for almost two years. His school wasn't too bad but I wanted him to get a more systematic grounding as it is so so so important to my husband and I.

 

I am loving the homeschooling (which we only started a few months ago) as I can make our faith a part of the whole day. :001_smile:

[Laura K (NC)]

I went to a priest one time, complaining that there didn't seem to be any *learning* going on at our church. The only regular Bible study was during the day when few could make it, our faith formation program was using a weak text, the homilies were weak (okay, I didn't say that! :blush:), and I wanted something more. He told me to do two things, and forget about starting another Bible study (which I had asked to do). He said to do more works of mercy (charity work), and to pray more, and for this he recommended St. Theresa's Interior Castle. I was about ready to leave the Church at that particular point in my life, and his advice didn't sit well with me.

 

Since then I have learned that we (we women especially) have to live as both Mary and Martha. We have to sit at the feet of Christ and learn, but we also have to do. The people I know who seem to have the strongest faith aren't those who read a lot about the faith... they're the Marthas -- the ones who are charitable. Those are the kind who seem to pray more and have a better understanding of who Jesus really is.

 

In my post I was trying carefully to balance the Mary with the Martha. I think there's a danger if either one is taken to extremes. "Mary" taken to extremes would be a kind of Gnosticism. Martha taken to extremes would be a kind of Pelagianism. I think priests, directors of religious ed, and parents have a responsibility to teach their kids as much as possible about the faith using the catechism. I didn't mean for my post to sound like I was excusing ignorance of the faith, or promoting it. I really did intend to bring out all the different means we come to God given our different faculties -- our minds, our hearts, and our wills.

[Pink Fairy]

Another set of Catholic hsers here. Dh and I are both converts, and the Faith is a huge part of our hs. My dh loves to study both the Bible and the Catechism. When he does catechism with our kids (about twice a week), he has the Bible in one hand and the Catechism in the other, and uses both to show how Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are inseparable.

 

Great thread, btw. :001_smile:

[HRAAB]

My dh and I are both cradle Catholics. My dh grew up in a family of 14. His mother is a convert, his dad cradle Catholic. They totally relied upon the parochial school system to catechize and instill the faith in their children. Twelve years of Catholic schools, and most of them can't tell you the most basic teachings of the Faith. In fact, I head my sil asking a family member to explain the Trinity to her. Now is it fair to lay blame completely on the schools? No. Parents had a responsibility, but most of them truly believed the schools would do it. Today, out of 14 children, 4 are still practicing Catholics.

 

My mom was a nominal Catholic when she met my dad who had converted a few years earlier. My mother was never particularly Catholic, but she was a very faith filled woman. My dad was the Catholic in our home. He took his faith serious, studied, discussed and debated with me. We had a Catholic library in the house that was always available. I credit my dad for my interest in Catholicism.

 

Our RE program at our parish is sub-par at best. There's just no substance to it. I teach religion - catechism, Bible, saints - everyday. I try to observe the liturgical seasons in our home.

 

Now I need to say that I have been struggling with my faith mightily over the last five or so years. I have more doubts than I can count and sometimes think I'm pretty much an agnostic Christian - if there can be such a thing. But I refuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm a fighter and still hanging in there. My youngest will be making their First Holy Communion this year, and I will be doing most of preparation. My 11 yr old dd is becoming very interested in the Catechism and starts many discussions. And I'm it. My dh does not get involved in their religious training very much. Maybe this is good for me. It's forcing me to re-evaluate where I stand. Much as these conversations have been so very helpful to me. Just the other night I pulled Mere Christianity off the shelf because I felt like I needed to back up to the beginning plus I plan on studying it with my older dd. So although I can answer most of her questions, my heart is being revitalized. If it weren't for teaching my children and many of these on-line discussions, I'm not sure where I would be right now since I have no Catholic support network IRL.

 

Most of the Catholic homeschoolers I know are very devout, orthodox Catholics. Most homeschool because passing on the faith to the children is their primary objective. They are knowledge, well educated Catholics.

 

I think I see a very small, hopeful change in the church. I feel the church is finding her way back from 60's and 70's. I'm probably more liberal than most Catholic homeschoolers, yet I'm glad to see things settling down. I'm definitely more conservative liturgically and like Mass to be Mass. Oh, if you could have witnessed what I saw a couple of weeks ago. My dh wanted to try a new parish closer to home. Good grief. I kept assuring myself it was Catholic. I felt the priest still thought he was at a love-in. But overall I think things are moving in the right direction.

 

Janet

[Saille]

This is completely fascinating, and I am so appreciative of people taking the time to post and posting such personal stories. Also, though I apparently have repped both of you too recently to do it again, thanks to both the mamas who mentioned Gnosticism and Pelagianism. I looked both of them up, and (aside from it just being very interesting anyway) this is the first time I have understood all the hue and cry about Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials series. Actually, I'm pretty sure now that most of the people I heard making a fuss about it didn't understand it, either. ;)

 

The posts about homeschoolers' personal journeys to Catholic homeschooling and how they integrate Catholic instruction in their homeschool come closest to what I'm after.

 

More to say, but I need to go work in the field. Back later.

[Murphy101]

Honestly, we didn't start out homeschooling for religious reasons. And there are a huge number of things that more devout Catholics do on a regular basis that we just don't for any number of reasons (family rosary, daily mass, celebrating more than the occasional feast day, etc). But we try, and we're growing. I'm learning from my kids' lesson books - I'm one of those poorly Catechized "Jesus Loves Me" girls.

 

I didn't start homeschooling for religous reasons either. It was all academics and safety at first. We still do it for those reasons, but the #1 benefits have been family and faith growth.

 

Also, don't feel you are less devout because you don't "do all the stuff" that others supposedly devout catholics do. That might not be where God is calling you for your family right now. I know some wonderful catholic families that absolutely insist that I should attend daily mass with the kids and other such things, but that's not primary vocational duty right now. Right now my vocation as wife and mother is to educate and care for the needs of 8.5 people and that doesn't leave room for daily mass at this time. I love a quote by de Sales, "Duty before all else, even something holy." If I'm not fulfilling my primary God-given vocation, then I'm not doing what God has called me to do, even if I am doing something holy. It has taken me several years to understand that doing my job, my vocation, as wife and mother IS an act of devout holiness. (Heaven knows I don't LIKE to do dishes and get on to kids and rub dog pee out fo the carpet!!)

 

I'm a convert. My family is everything from agnostic to wiccan and atheist. My dh did not convert, calls himself christian if pushed to do so and is an only child from a "we must attend on easter sunday with grandmother to make her happy" baptists.

 

CCD is pitiful and so was RCIA. Frankly the problem is the same as with catholic schools. They say that since they only get these kids a few times and they often aren't from practicing families, that we shoudln't over whelm them or ask too much of them. I say that since we don't see them much and they come from non-practicing families - we should give them as much protein meaty faith as possible because they might starve if not fed at the one opportunity to learn somethng of value!

[Geek]

I think there's 3 camps of Catholics.

 

1 - trying to be as orthodox as possible and always growing. learning about their faith. I call these Catholic with a capital "C". Some can be rather obnoxious about it with a superior attitude. but most aren't like that. they are too busy being catholic.

 

2 - CINO = catholic in name only. They don't really make any effort to learn or grow in faith. Show up on Sunday to feel good. I think most of them don't want to hear more than the feel good stuff. Learning requires some level of change in them, so they avoid it. They don't want to hear what the Church teaches about marriage, birth control, and Sunday attendence, because then they might have to change something or admit to purposely choosing to do somethng they have been taught is wrong.

 

As a pp noted, this is generally true in ANY religion denomination. Many christians are just going through the motions, not really learning their faith or willing to practice it. I don't think they are horrid people. In fact, I think they live in great fear much of the time.

 

3 - Heretics. There I said it. Catholics who have learned better and do know what the Church teaches and why and purposely try to make others in the church change to suit their selfish needs. These would be catholics that know the truths of the church, refuse to live by them, and try to lead others astray. The organization of excummicated nuns that think women should be allowed to be priests and claim to be ordained is a prime example of this.

I am pretty sure you didn't mean these are the only three subgroups of Catholics. Surely not. Your groupings imply extremely black-and-white thinking.

 

I don't think there are only three subgroups of Catholicism. I don't find myself in any of your groups.

 

Some of my dearest friends are Catholic homeschooling moms I'm quite sure would put themselves into your group #1. In the end I have found all of them to have a superior attitude; if you don't think like they do, then you're not Catholic enough. Don't get me wrong: they are all loving women, trying to do their best. But church teachings aren't even open for real discussion with them (except for them to convince me that I'm not Catholic enough). I do not believe that Jesus taught us to follow 10,000 detailed dictates without thinking.

 

I'm too Catholic for the Protestant homeschoolers I hang out with. And I'm not Catholic enough for the Catholic homeschoolers I hang out with. Whatever happened to just sharing Jesus and His love? Why are all the details as important as Christ? I don't get it. The details add definition, richness, and define us as Catholics. But the details aren't God, and I find again and again Catholics (and Protestants for that matter) who make the details of their faith out to be their god. This is legalism at its worst.

 

Lest you think I'm in the heretic category, let me emphatically say I do not believe I am. Perhaps those who would put themselves into group #1 are too quick to define what constitutes a heretic.

[Murphy101]

I am pretty sure you didn't mean these are the only three subgroups of Catholics. Surely not. Your groupings imply extremely black-and-white thinking.

 

Sure. I'll admit the majority of Catholics are somewhere between group 1 and 2, which would be a natural ebb and flow of faith. We all have weaker faith times and stronger faith times.

 

In the end I have found all of them to have a superior attitude; if you don't think like they do, then you're not Catholic enough. Don't get me wrong: they are all loving women, trying to do their best. But church teachings aren't even open for real discussion with them (except for them to convince me that I'm not Catholic enough). I do not believe that Jesus taught us to follow 10,000 detailed dictates without thinking.

 

hmm, hanging with the wrong catholics or they are hitting some nerves. Maybe? Real discussion does not preclude a right and a wrong. For example, I might have a real discussion about what and why the church teaches as she does on birth control. I'm not saying someone who used birth control is a lesser catholic, I'm saying they aren't following the Church on that issue. (We all sin and stumble in following our faith, our god, but that doesn't neccessarily make us lesser christians.)

 

I'm too Catholic for the Protestant homeschoolers I hang out with. And I'm not Catholic enough for the Catholic homeschoolers I hang out with.

 

Me too!:iagree: Complete sympathy with you on this one.:grouphug: ug. If I have to listen to one more lecture on why I should wear skirts or attend a latin mass I'm going to scream!:grouphug: Those things are not requirements of being catholic. I don't have a problem with those who do it, but I'm mighty sick of it being pushed as though it's doctrine.

 

Lest you think I'm in the heretic category, let me emphatically say I do not believe I am. Perhaps those who would put themselves into group #1 are too quick to define what constitutes a heretic.

 

A heretic is someone who commits heresy.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as ****able. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:

 

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

I'm not sure I understand this part:

 

I do not believe that Jesus taught us to follow 10,000 detailed dictates without thinking.

 

Whatever happened to just sharing Jesus and His love? Why are all the details as important as Christ? I don't get it.

 

Who says you can't think about doing it? Sure you can! I don't think we can "just share Jesus and His love". The details ARE how we share Jesus and His love. The details of how and why we live our lives the way we do ARE the sharing of Jesus and His love. They are not as important as Christ, they are a direct result of Him and a path to Him.

 

It should be noted that we don't always have to like what God asks of us. Some of the most holy people in history never would have chosen the holy path God gave them. What made them saints was a willingness to obey Him. Sometimes even when they didn't like it or understand it. They choose His will over their own. A VERY hard thing to do for anyone. But I don't recall God ever smiting them for having questions or not being gungho enthusiastic about it.:)

 

And 10,000 details!? Where do you get that?! The Catholic faith is really rather simple and no where near 10,000 rules are required to be a good Catholic.:confused:

[HRAAB]

And 10,000 details!? Where do you get that?! The Catholic faith is really rather simple and no where near 10,000 rules are required to be a good Catholic.:confused:

 

I'm not the poster who wrote '10,000 details' but did want to comment. This is a my personal experience; I'm not saying the OP meant this. I have very much been part of your group 1, for most of my adult life. I have been surrounded by other devout, faithful, orthodox Catholics. Over several years, I had a sense that there was something missing. That there was too much apologetics and too little of the spiritual. This is what 'I' felt. I didn't like where I was going where everything became a debate. This priest did that. That priest said that. This family does that. On and on and on. One day I went to my overflowing Catholic library to look up something to prove to another Catholic that they were wrong and I was right, and a thought occurred to me. I started pulling off all my books: catechisms, VII documents, commentaries on VII document, encyclicals, papal letters, etc. and started adding up the pages. When I got to 25,000 pages I felt ill. For me, that's what my faith had become. I've become distanced from Catholic support group because of this. Whenever I'm around them, it always becomes the conservative vs liberal argument again. Every little detail was noted and pointed out.

 

No, this is not the true essence of Catholicism, but this is what some people make of Catholicism. I say that because I'm guilty of my accusation. Documents, writings, teaching took the place of faith for me, and frankly I see it in other Catholic homeschoolers.

 

I doubt, question, and muddle through things daily. But I'm still there at Mass, in prayer, at adoration, trying. But when I started to doubt and question and ask for help, I became the near occasion of sin for several of my friends. I was no longer the right kind of Catholic. My words, but my perception of how they viewed me.

 

And none of that includes the arguments over wearing dresses, bare arms or no bare arms, shorts on girls or no, girls going to college, letting girls play sports, utilizing your parish RE program, receiving communion in the hand, reading Harry Potter, ad nauseum.

 

It's so hard when you don't even fit into your own church's homeschool group. Very lonely. Then when you feel shunned for having doubts, it's totally isolating. It takes much faith to voice a doubt and trust that God will see you through the dark period, but I totally trust God is with me and I will remain open to Him. I wish people could have stood by me through my doubt, too.

 

I'm not sure where I fit in with your three definition of Catholics.

 

Janet

[Murphy101]

I'm not the poster who wrote '10,000 details' but did want to comment. This is a my personal experience; I'm not saying the OP meant this. I have very much been part of your group 1, for most of my adult life. I have been surrounded by other devout, faithful, orthodox Catholics. Over several years, I had a sense that there was something missing. That there was too much apologetics and too little of the spiritual. This is what 'I' felt. I didn't like where I was going where everything became a debate. This priest did that. That priest said that. This family does that. On and on and on. One day I went to my overflowing Catholic library to look up something to prove to another Catholic that they were wrong and I was right, and a thought occurred to me. I started pulling off all my books: catechisms, VII documents, commentaries on VII document, encyclicals, papal letters, etc. and started adding up the pages. When I got to 25,000 pages I felt ill. For me, that's what my faith had become. I've become distanced from Catholic support group because of this. Whenever I'm around them, it always becomes the conservative vs liberal argument again. Every little detail was noted and pointed out.

 

A shame for all concerned - no? That you felt ill looking deeper into your faith. That either party was looking to prove another wrong, rather than looking at whether they are sincerely living their own faith.

 

I like to discuss, debate, many issues. It's part of my nature, kwim? BUT as much as I love debating a topic, I detest debate the value of the person. It sounds like you experienced a crossing of that line, not just for yourself, but from others?

 

No, this is not the true essence of Catholicism, but this is what some people make of Catholicism. I say that because I'm guilty of my accusation. Documents, writings, teaching took the place of faith for me, and frankly I see it in other Catholic homeschoolers.

 

And is this not also true of any religion? NOT saying that makes it right. Saying that it's not about being Catholic. I've met just as many protestants who make the same attitudes.

 

I doubt, question, and muddle through things daily. But I'm still there at Mass, in prayer, at adoration, trying. But when I started to doubt and question and ask for help, I became the near occasion of sin for several of my friends. I was no longer the right kind of Catholic. My words, but my perception of how they viewed me.

 

That's a tragic shame. And I completely understand it having been there and doing that.:grouphug: Those other Catholics need to read more saint stories instead of just assigning them to their kids during english lessons. EVERY saint has been exactly in what you describe! ZERO exceptions. Isn't that amazing? They doubted, questioned, muddled, and struggled too. But above all, in spite of all that, they still obeyed God and His Church. I'm not saying I'm a saint or that you are. I'm just saying, those thoughts and feelings are absolutely NOT a sign of a lesser Catholic. Has anyone read Mother Teresa's diary stuff? When it came out everyone said, "See look she wasn't a real Catholic after all! She didn't really believe!" But St. Padre Pio often wrote similiar things and even spoke of them to his confessor. I can onlly imagine how much harder it is to follow His will when one feels like that. How much harder must it have been for them to live their faith. But hey did it. Not only that, they did it with love and devotion! Frankly, I'm always wowed by that.

 

And none of that includes the arguments over wearing dresses, bare arms or no bare arms, shorts on girls or no, girls going to college, letting girls play sports, utilizing your parish RE program, receiving communion in the hand, reading Harry Potter, ad nauseum.

 

ad nauseum is pretty much my sentiment too.:D

 

It's so hard when you don't even fit into your own church's homeschool group. Very lonely.

 

I'm not sure where I fit in with your three definition of Catholics.

 

:grouphug::iagree: I'm in the same boat. I just left after 8 year the only catholic homeschool group in this half of the state because of many of the things you mention. For me, there was no support in that group.

 

Here's the thing, that devout category? Truely devout people don't think they belong in it and never claim it. (Only the obnoxious ones ever claim it.;)) It sounds like you are a fairly devout Catholic to me.:grouphug:

 

Maybe I should rewrite#1 to be more like 1A and 1B?:)

 

Sorry for any hurt feelings.

 

I *do* understand that yucky feeling you describe.

[Geek]

hanging with the wrong catholics

They are the only Catholic homeschoolers I know. It's them or no Catholic homeschoolers at all.

 

or they are hitting some nerves.

Of course they are. If you mean, do I feel convicted by what they say? By some things, of course. But not all. Not by a long shot.

 

I'm not sure I understand this part:

I do not believe that Jesus taught us to follow 10,000 detailed dictates without thinking.

 

Whatever happened to just sharing Jesus and His love? Why are all the details as important as Christ? I don't get it.

Please see below. OK, I exaggerated. It's not 10,000. But it's dozens and dozens...and dozens. And I love my Church, my Lord, the Blessed Mother. More than words can convey. But the legalism is breaking me.

 

 

I don't think we can "just share Jesus and His love".

I don't believe I said that. If I implied it, I apologize. It's a matter of degree, proportion of focus. Where is most of one's time spent: Figuring out how to love your neighbor? Or making sure you're following all of the Church's teachings, down to the letter (of the law)? This blog entry expresses my heart well. http://centering-prayer.blogspot.com/2008/02/connection-not-words.html

 

The details ARE how we share Jesus and His love.

I disagree. It's far more loving to listen, learn from others, and pay attention to heart issues than it is to:

 

1) Never ever miss Mass.

2) Go to confession regularly.

3) Worry about receiving the Eucharist in sin, or not.

4) Never miss a holy day of obligation.

5) Have "right" thinking about ..exactly.. what the nature of one's relationship with Christ should look like.

6) Worry about what, exactly, does it mean to be completely open to new life, being told that one's conscience is of little to no consequence.

7) Teaching your kids all the right prayers.

8) Dressing appropriately.

 

etc etc etc

 

I could go on and on...and on. But I won't. I don't have time for this. I need to go spend time with my kids.

 

The details of how and why we live our lives the way we do ARE the sharing of Jesus and His love. They are not as important as Christ, they are a direct result of Him and a path to Him.

 

You hit the nail on the head right here, with my emphasis in red. But the details differ slightly between individuals. Legalism makes us out to all be exactly the same.

 

What made them saints was a willingness to obey Him.

 

Yes, but that obedience looks very different from person to person. Fretting over details makes us out to be carbon copies and not the unique beings we are.

 

 

And 10,000 details!? Where do you get that?! The Catholic faith is really rather simple and no where near 10,000 rules are required to be a good Catholic.:confused:

That's what I used to believe, when I converted. 18 years later--and lots of experiences influenced by Catholic homeschoolers--have made me think differently. Please see my comments below, made in reply to Janet.

 

One day I went to my overflowing Catholic library to look up something to prove to another Catholic that they were wrong and I was right, and a thought occurred to me. I started pulling off all my books: catechisms, VII documents, commentaries on VII document, encyclicals, papal letters, etc. and started adding up the pages. When I got to 25,000 pages I felt ill. For me, that's what my faith had become. I've become distanced from Catholic support group because of this.

Here's Martha's answer to the "what 10,000 details?" question.

 

Whenever I'm around them, it always becomes the conservative vs liberal argument again. Every little detail was noted and pointed out.

 

You have spoken my heart completely and totally with these comments. Thank you. :o

 

No, this is not the true essence of Catholicism, but this is what some people make of Catholicism. I say that because I'm guilty of my accusation. Documents, writings, teaching took the place of faith for me, and frankly I see it in other Catholic homeschoolers.

 

This is all I see, too. And it's affecting my faith profoundly. This little guy expresses how I feel around them, so he makes me laugh. :gnorsi:

 

I doubt, question, and muddle through things daily. But I'm still there at Mass, in prayer, at adoration, trying. But when I started to doubt and question and ask for help, I became the near occasion of sin for several of my friends. I was no longer the right kind of Catholic. My words, but my perception of how they viewed me.

 

Now I'm weeping. Once again, you have spoken my heart.

 

It's so hard when you don't even fit into your own church's homeschool group. Very lonely. Then when you feel shunned for having doubts, it's totally isolating. It takes much faith to voice a doubt and trust that God will see you through the dark period, but I totally trust God is with me and I will remain open to Him. I wish people could have stood by me through my doubt, too.

 

Yes. It seems to be my lot in life to live in a place of constantly questioning mental details. But this has allowed me to rest in Him...as long as I remember to ignore the words of my sisters in Christ. How sad is that?

[Laura K (NC)]

nt

[Laura K (NC)]

A few years ago I was making a transition between a group of Protestants who controlled our county homeschooling support group and alienated Catholics in general and me in particular, to a group of Catholic homeschoolers. I lurked for a while on this email list. My opinion about this group of women was the same as yours. Some of the women wore veils to church, they talked novenas and house blessings by priests, they used all Catholic curricula no matter what, and seemed to have a sense of Catholicism that I never learned growing up. I was in a quandary, because I didn't really belong to the Protestants and I didn't belong to the Catholics, either. Unfortunately, I sent a message to one lady I felt was a kindred spirit, saying that exact same thing, about not feeling like a Protestant OR a Catholic, but by accident it went to the whole group. Seriously. I was mortified, thinking any chance I ever had of befriending these women had hereby flown out the window.

 

I went into hiding. Occasionally, though, I'd run into one of these women in person. But when I was introduced to some of these women in person, more than one said, "Oh, YOU'RE the one who wrote that post. I've been dying to meet you." It turned out that we had more in common than I thought. And to see them in person, and to interact with them as individuals rather than as the prototypes of a group that was "other" helped me see what we had in common.

 

My best friend now is a woman who goes to adoration every week, who had a Magnificat subscription, who does novenas, and in some ways is a more exacting Catholic than I will ever be. I don't understand some of the aspects of my faith well; there are sacramentals that I don't feel comfortable with, but I don't feel that it's necessary at this point to understand them. My friend, knowing me, doesn't pressure me to practice the faith the same way she does. Meanwhile, I've grown in my faith in the past 10 years so that I don't practice the same way I used to. I thrill over poetry and art and words and history, but I'm lacking in prayer and contemplation. I love the Latin mass, which my friend avoids. I like incense and chant, but my friend likes more contemporary music and a relationship with a priest that's more like that with a brother than with a father. Catholicism means to be a universal faith, even if some of us don't always practice it that way, and it's a big enough tent to include both me and these Catholic girlfriends of mine.

 

So it's interesting, I had my friend pegged initially as "one of those," when she was really more like "one of us." And the other women in this group, those who lead natural family planning classes, those who wear veils to church, those who have private altars (complete with kneelers!) in their homes, those with a million kids (I have three, and feel a little guilty) and those who wear scapulars to the pool are all like my friend. I know them now like I still know some of my Protestant friends. I can't paint them all with the same brush.

 

We aren't all in the same stage in our spiritual progress. We won't all progress from relaxed Catholicism to rigorous ritual. For some of us, the progress will go the reverse way, and will be away from a tendency to be a pharisee and toward a more spiritual sense of faith and trust (like John at the Last Supper, not doing, but just resting on Jesus). It's impossible to tell, unless you spend a lot of time with a person, where s/he is going, what struggles are being overcome, what intents are being prayed for in their private devotion. In my various stages, I have been a pharisee for different expressions. I used to play a guitar at mass, and I would get huffy with those who were impatient with the guitar. Then I sang at mass with the organ, and told everyone I knew that guitars were not fitting instruments for such a solemn sacrifice. :001_rolleyes: Now I'm somewhere in between, but I'm not done growing yet.

 

I have a friend who was a devout Orthodox. He would spend many hours in prayer, do extreme fasting, and whose wife struggled to keep up with him. He had found Orthodoxy after various other Christian expressions, including a cult which ruined his trust of authority. After another bad experience with religion, he left the faith entirely and is wandering around now searching for something, and mocking all that has to do with ritual and rigor, since that was the stuff of cults and of what he perceived was the essence of religion -- obedience. He didn't see the love or the beauty in it. I pray for him because he has lost so much. It isn't the rigor that I believe he lost, though since I say that as a more "ritualistic" Christian he doesn't believe me. I think he lost faith, trust, love, and beauty. I think he's not done yet, I have faith that God's not done with him yet. Our belief isn't static. We are constantly changing as we alternatively grow in understanding and succumb to our doubts. There's that saying, "God draws straight with crooked lines" -- we don't always go straight toward our destination. Charity demands that we not only forgive the humanness of other people, but to see the divine in them as well. I fail miserably, so many times, even today, but the goal for me isn't to perfect the ritual, but to perfect the charity. I benefited from getting to know this group of local women who seemed so different from me in their practice of Catholicism. Maybe if your local Catholic group got to know you, you and they would have a greater appreciation for each other, and you and they could see your differences as complementary.

[HRAAB]

You didn't hurt my feelings. I admit my feelings have been hurt in the past, but I think I'm getting over. Making progress anyway. Today in Mass I was asking God to open my heart to His voice. Little by little. Somedays I swear my ears must be plugged, though.

 

Yes, the things I've experienced exist in all churches - human nature, huh? It just came at a bad time in my life, I guess. I appreciate when I meet some that I can say that to and not have them lecture me. ;)

 

We're getting ready to head up to the mountains for my niece's wedding so I really need get myself off this computer and focus on getting my kids ready to go although I'd rather sit here....It's been so nice to be part of these recent conversations, and they have truly helped me. Forced me to look at some things and start working on them.

 

Thanks for the opportunity to talk.

 

Janet

[HRAAB]

Yes. It seems to be my lot in life to live in a place of constantly questioning mental details. But this has allowed me to rest in Him...as long as I remember to ignore the words of my sisters in Christ. How sad is that?

 

It seems you and I have been down the same road but are still fighting the fight. I wish I had someone in real life to talk to over a cup of tea. You know, the one thing in my life that has taken more faith than any other thing I can think of, is actually giving voice to my doubts. You have to truly trust in God's love and mercy to say, "I have doubts and questions". I think most Catholics have had doubts at one time or another. It's hanging in there when it gets tough that is tricky.

 

As I said, I'm headed out of town, but thank you for your understanding.

 

Janet

[Geek]

Thank you, Laura, for writing these words. What a beautiful post. You've given me some things to think about.

 

As for getting to know these women on a more personal level...God would have to lead in that direction. The ones I have gotten to know more personally only let me get so close to them; I'm just not Catholic enough and in their eyes my questions and doubts are the same as disbelief.

 

As for being "marked" due to things said on an e-mail list, I've been through that, too. I'm still dealing with the fallout. One of the senior members of the group-at-large (not involved with our subgroup) openly criticized (well, bashed, would be more accurate) the writings on my blog. I was attacked repeatedly in a public forum, and then she led another woman to do the same.

 

I have yet to fully recover relationship-wise from these incidents. I know that if I were to meet up with any of these other ladies whom I haven't seen in some time, they'd "see" me wearing a scarlet H for heretic. This doesn't mean that all of them aren't open to me, but I do realize that our interactions would be colored by what was said by those two women on the list.

 

Thanks again for your comments! What a blessing.

 

A few years ago I was making a transition between a group of Protestants who controlled our county homeschooling support group and alienated Catholics in general and me in particular, to a group of Catholic homeschoolers. I lurked for a while on this email list. My opinion about this group of women was the same as yours. Some of the women wore veils to church, they talked novenas and house blessings by priests, they used all Catholic curricula no matter what, and seemed to have a sense of Catholicism that I never learned growing up. I was in a quandary, because I didn't really belong to the Protestants and I didn't belong to the Catholics, either. Unfortunately, I sent a message to one lady I felt was a kindred spirit, saying that exact same thing, about not feeling like a Protestant OR a Catholic, but by accident it went to the whole group. Seriously. I was mortified, thinking any chance I ever had of befriending these women had hereby flown out the window.

 

I went into hiding. Occasionally, though, I'd run into one of these women in person. But when I was introduced to some of these women in person, more than one said, "Oh, YOU'RE the one who wrote that post. I've been dying to meet you." It turned out that we had more in common than I thought. And to see them in person, and to interact with them as individuals rather than as the prototypes of a group that was "other" helped me see what we had in common.

 

My best friend now is a woman who goes to adoration every week, who had a Magnificat subscription, who does novenas, and in some ways is a more exacting Catholic than I will ever be. I don't understand some of the aspects of my faith well; there are sacramentals that I don't feel comfortable with, but I don't feel that it's necessary at this point to understand them. My friend, knowing me, doesn't pressure me to practice the faith the same way she does. Meanwhile, I've grown in my faith in the past 10 years so that I don't practice the same way I used to. I thrill over poetry and art and words and history, but I'm lacking in prayer and contemplation. I love the Latin mass, which my friend avoids. I like incense and chant, but my friend likes more contemporary music and a relationship with a priest that's more like that with a brother than with a father. Catholicism means to be a universal faith, even if some of us don't always practice it that way, and it's a big enough tent to include both me and these Catholic girlfriends of mine.

 

So it's interesting, I had my friend pegged initially as "one of those," when she was really more like "one of us." And the other women in this group, those who lead natural family planning classes, those who wear veils to church, those who have private altars (complete with kneelers!) in their homes, those with a million kids (I have three, and feel a little guilty) and those who wear scapulars to the pool are all like my friend. I know them now like I still know some of my Protestant friends. I can't paint them all with the same brush.

 

We aren't all in the same stage in our spiritual progress. We won't all progress from relaxed Catholicism to rigorous ritual. For some of us, the progress will go the reverse way, and will be away from a tendency to be a pharisee and toward a more spiritual sense of faith and trust (like John at the Last Supper, not doing, but just resting on Jesus). It's impossible to tell, unless you spend a lot of time with a person, where s/he is going, what struggles are being overcome, what intents are being prayed for in their private devotion. In my various stages, I have been a pharisee for different expressions. I used to play a guitar at mass, and I would get huffy with those who were impatient with the guitar. Then I sang at mass with the organ, and told everyone I knew that guitars were not fitting instruments for such a solemn sacrifice. :001_rolleyes: Now I'm somewhere in between, but I'm not done growing yet.

 

I have a friend who was a devout Orthodox. He would spend many hours in prayer, do extreme fasting, and whose wife struggled to keep up with him. He had found Orthodoxy after various other Christian expressions, including a cult which ruined his trust of authority. After another bad experience with religion, he left the faith entirely and is wandering around now searching for something, and mocking all that has to do with ritual and rigor, since that was the stuff of cults and of what he perceived was the essence of religion -- obedience. He didn't see the love or the beauty in it. I pray for him because he has lost so much. It isn't the rigor that I believe he lost, though since I say that as a more "ritualistic" Christian he doesn't believe me. I think he lost faith, trust, love, and beauty. I think he's not done yet, I have faith that God's not done with him yet. Our belief isn't static. We are constantly changing as we alternatively grow in understanding and succumb to our doubts. There's that saying, "God draws straight with crooked lines" -- we don't always go straight toward our destination. Charity demands that we not only forgive the humanness of other people, but to see the divine in them as well. I fail miserably, so many times, even today, but the goal for me isn't to perfect the ritual, but to perfect the charity. I benefited from getting to know this group of local women who seemed so different from me in their practice of Catholicism. Maybe if your local Catholic group got to know you, you and they would have a greater appreciation for each other, and you and they could see your differences as complementary.

[Laura K (NC)]

You might just have to pray for them if they persist in calling judgment upon you. As the southern ladies say, "Bless their hearts." ;) As Jesus said, "These kinds [of demons] only come out with prayer and fasting." :D (I'm kidding!)

 

There was a Catholic message board a few years ago (I won't name the name) which all of a sudden refused new members. I was in a situation where I really craved Catholic women to talk to, so I tried to get in. I was in for a while, didn't post much, and then I was thrown off the board because of a financial misunderstanding. I tried to make it right, and was ignored. I was deeply stung by the lack of charity there, especially because there doesn't seem to be very many options for Catholic women to talk online (which may be why we're having so many threads on Catholicism here). There are blogs, but very few boards. There are probably many women like us who feel marginalized in some way based on our religion or the number of children we have or whatnot. It's important to take this and use it to try to befriend other women in the same boat.

 

Peace.

[Murphy101]

OEL wasn't my cup of tea as they say either.:iagree:

 

However, I really like these Catholic boards:

4 Real Learning

Family Centered Living

and the large Catholic families yahoo egroup, Magnum Opus

Then there's CAF, which isn't just for homeschooling, but still interesting on occassion.;)

[8filltheheart]

I prayed about this thread while at Mass tonight. I have seen these issues as well. Going both ways, though, not strictly in one direction. Both positions having sides.....their way is the right way.

 

What spoke to me was that no matter what the position, if viewed as 10,000 rules or as you need to do this, this, and this or patting yourself on the back b/c you are.......all are missing the heart of the truth.

 

Knowledge won't save you. But knowledge can help form your conscience to act correctly. Even then, unless every act is in complete submission to God in love, it is all for naught. St. Therese of Liseaux is a perfect example. She was not esteemed by her fellow sisters, but she did every small act of daily duty in a love offering to Jesus. Her small way is a testimony to heroic virtue through love.

 

In essence, it is submission to the will of God. "He brought us into existence, and except for His sustaining hand, we would lapse into nothingness. The problem is that we tend to forget who God is and who we are. The most fundamental form of pride, therefore, is to think of oneself independently of God. The further problem is that we not only tend to take other people for granted, and forget how much we owe to everyone whom God has put into our lives, but we are slow to recognize the good qualities of others, and become preoccupied with ourselves."

 

We can only judge our own hearts. We can't control how others respond to us, but we can control how we respond to them. The verse from Psalms 22:6: But I am a worm, and no man; scorned by men and despised by all people. All who see me, mock me. They make mouths at me and wag their heads.......is a constant reminder of what our guide should be.

 

We do have an obligation to understand God's will in order to serve Him completely. What may seem like lots of rituals and rules, if followed through servile fear are in theory inconsistent with the true love of God. If however we submit to them in filial fear, than they become actions of love b/c we are sacrificing our will out of love for God.

 

Only through our own prayer and examination of conscience can we even begin to determine our own motivations, let alone those of another.

[Gretchen in NJ]

We started to homeschool because at public school my daughters were both bullied and we could not afford private school.

 

Before that, I was done with the Catholic Church for many reasons. Dh dragged me kicking and screaming down the aisle for our marriage. I had wanted nothing to do with the Catholic Church even then, but he insisted. Thank God.

 

Years ago I started to re-think what I was doing and what I had done to my family especially my girls. Then, Pope John Paul II died. I remembered how I used to feel about my faith. I then dragged dh and my girls to church.:001_huh: Yes, he had to be the one dragged this time. Dd9 was 5 at the time and very interested in God. We would talk about God all of the time, but I had left someone out. Of the 3 of them, she was the only one happy to be going to church. In the middle of the Mass in her loudest whispered voice, she asked, "I thought this was going to be about God. Who is this guy Jesus?":blushing: Everyones shoulders were shaking in laughter including the priest so much so that there had to be a small pause.

 

Neither I or my dh seem to connect with that church. So we kept discussing going back and/or maybe switching to another faith. But, I kept coming back to the fact that I believed in the apostolic church.

 

Dh kept dragging on and on. My mother finally told me how her mother and a few of my aunts had to just put their foot down and say that the family was going and how my grandfather and my uncles became very involved in the church soon after.

 

So, I put my foot down this past Christmas. I informed my family that we were all going to church Christmas morning and then every Sunday there after. I was all set and excited about returning. Everyone else was complaining about going including dh. I thought Christmas would be prefect way to introduce my children to the Catholic Faith. The closer Christmas came the more excited I got and the louder the complaining became. But, I was not going to be stopped. This family was going back to church.

 

On Saturday, December 22nd, dd10 gets the stomach flu at 3:00 pm an hour away from home. She gets it all over her Christmas dress, shoes and coat. We get her cleaned-up in a gas station that was not so clean, but they were so very nice and helpful.

 

We get back on the road again. Fifteen minutes down the road dd9 asks dd10 for the bag. Yup! You got it. She has it too. Our one hour drive home turned into a 3 hour drive home.:ack2: I drove while dh was on his PDA looking for a dry cleaner who could clean their Christmas dresses by Christmas. Keep in mind that it was late Saturday and Monday was Christmas Eve. We were going to go back to church! I would not be stopped. After all the stomach flu only last 24 hours.:glare:

 

By 10:30 pm that night, I joined my girls. After all, us girls must stick together.:001_huh: We are sick for days and days. Christmas came and went. We stayed in our jamies, but the dresses were cleaned. A lot of good that did us.

 

Dec 31st was the last day of illness for us. I had this feeling like someone or something was trying to prevent us from returning. So, I dragged my family into church on Jan 1st. A very nice gentleman approached us and asked if we would bring up the gifts. I declinded saying that this was our first time back in a long while. He insisted. We did. I kept thinking at any moment He was going to strike. He didn't and we have been going every Sunday since then.

 

I am happy to be back.

[Pink Fairy]

I am happy to be back.

 

 

Welcome home!!!:hurray:

[Parrothead]

OEL wasn't my cup of tea as they say either.:iagree:

 

Oh, I was a member there for a very short while. That and one other that I wasn't Catholic enough for.

 

All of us mis-fit Catholic moms ought to start a board just for us. And call it "Misfit Catholic Moms." :lol:

[Gretchen in NJ]

Welcome home!!!:hurray:

Thank you Mamabegood.

[Momto5]

All of us mis-fit Catholic moms ought to start a board just for us. And call it "Misfit Catholic Moms." :lol:

 

Sign me up too!

 

I've been off the boards for a while and just finished reading this fascinating discussion. Would you all like to come over to my house for tea next week so we can keep going?

[elizabeth]

Wow I thought I was the only one who got booted off that board.All I can say is I know I never posted anything uncharitable or even close to controversial. I was definitely not a good fit over there but having read many of the posts by Catholic people here over the past several days on this thread and others -I am in fine company. You are all interesting and above all else-humble- in the best sense of the word.

[Murphy101]

Sign me up too!

 

I've been off the boards for a while and just finished reading this fascinating discussion. Would you all like to come over to my house for tea next week so we can keep going?

 

Hey when and where and I'm there!:auto:

 

though seriously folks

if you really feel the need for a misfit catholics board - I could set one up in about a day or so. (because you know I don't spend nearly enough time online!;))

 

so if you are serious about that - pm me.

[Philothea]

posted original content on wrong thread!

[MaryM]

Hey when and where and I'm there!:auto:

 

though seriously folks

if you really feel the need for a misfit catholics board - I could set one up in about a day or so. (because you know I don't spend nearly enough time online!;))

 

so if you are serious about that - pm me.

 

I'd join! Another misfit from "that" board. THe new moderator is much better though!

 

Martha, your posts in this thread are excellent.

 

We are both cradle Catholics and came to homeschooling because of poor schools - even the catholic one. The realities of catholicism run the gamut between my dh and myself too. I have found that I prefer the "old" Mass and practices and have a difficult time with the "just love" "ceremonies". Trying to let charity prevail though. Not easy. The older I get the more I see the benefit of a solid foundation in one's faith!

 

Mary

[Philothea]

I run a message board for Latin mass, CMRI, SSPV, SSPX type Catholic women. That's probably a minority around here, but also PM me if interested.

[Gretchen in NJ]

I run a message board for Latin mass, CMRI, SSPV, SSPX type Catholic women. That's probably a minority around here, but also PM me if interested.

:confused: Could you please explain: CMRI, SSPV, SSPX? Thank you.

[clwcain]

SSPV = Society of Saint Pius V

SSPX = Society of Saint Pius X

 

CMRI I'm not familiar with...and I thought I knew who was who in Trad circles.

 

Care to enlighten us, Philothea?

[Plaid Dad]

CMRI=Congregatio Mariae Reginae Immaculatae/Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen (cmri.org).

[Philothea]

Yes, that's correct for CMRI, Plaid Dad.

 

They are the second largest traditional group, to the SSPX.

[Murphy101]

Catholic Homeschoolers' Message Board

 

I haven't restricted viewing or posting at this time.

I figure if I actually get any traffic, I can do that later.

If not, then there's no point wasting effort.:D

[Laura K (NC)]

it seems that all of these favor the Tridentine (Latin, at some date prior to 1965) mass, but none are in communion with Pope Benedict XVI in Rome. Is that right?

[Gretchen in NJ]

it seems that all of these favor the Tridentine (Latin, at some date prior to 1965) mass, but none are in communion with Pope Benedict XVI in Rome. Is that right?

Can Catholics do that? Just pick and choose which Pope they want to follow or not.