Skipping questions in Math: Saxon

[Critterfixer]

We are working through Saxon 5/4 this year. Overall, I'm pretty pleased with the progress the boys have made, and I find that the actual instruction time is pretty short, and productive. Sometimes we go off on a tangent for a while, or spend more time in the math, though which leaves me with a whopping twenty-odd problems to get through. And since I insist that they show work, and go through the math with diagrams and drawings where needed it takes us FOREVER!!!! to get through the problem set.

 

I'm tempted to just say odds or evens, but I'm not sure that we would end up with enough practice. The other option would be to take the books, and go through and mark which problems for each child, based on how well I think they have understood the concept. That seems like a lot of work for lazy mom. :D Or I could keep on slogging it out for two hours (+ dawdling and whining.) I also thought about doing all the lesson questions and about half the mixed practice in the morning, and assigning some problems for the evening.

 

I like the Saxon program, and I've seen great strides made in how much the boys have learned and been able to apply this year, so I want to stick with it. But I would like suggestions on reducing the amount of practice and whether this has been a problem for anyone. I KNOW the book says no.

 

The boys are 9, almost 10 and in fourth grade. They are not bad at math, but it isn't their "favorite." :rolleyes:

[EKS]

I skipped problems in Saxon 5/4-7/6 and ended up regretting it.  Saxon's strength is that repetition and continual review and when you eliminate it, IMO all you're left with is a mediocre math program.

 

If you simply must eliminate problems, the publisher recommends that you have the student do every other review set it its entirety.  So you'd do lessons 1 and 2 with all of the mental math and practice problems and then have your student do the review set for lesson 2 only.

 

Another way to shorten the amount of time is to sit with the student and have them do the problems orally (or at least the ones where it makes sense to do so).  Also, spending a few minutes on the weekend before copying the problems yourself will save some time too. 

 

Currently, I'm doing a combination of doing problems orally (or with me scribing on a whiteboard) and me copying problems for my son to do on his own.  It has made our math lessons much more streamlined. 

[Ellie]

We are working through Saxon 5/4 this year. Overall, I'm pretty pleased with the progress the boys have made, and I find that the actual instruction time is pretty short, and productive. Sometimes we go off on a tangent for a while, or spend more time in the math, though which leaves me with a whopping twenty-odd problems to get through. And since I insist that they show work, and go through the math with diagrams and drawings where needed it takes us FOREVER!!!! to get through the problem set.

 

I'm tempted to just say odds or evens, but I'm not sure that we would end up with enough practice. The other option would be to take the books, and go through and mark which problems for each child, based on how well I think they have understood the concept. That seems like a lot of work for lazy mom. :D Or I could keep on slogging it out for two hours (+ dawdling and whining.) I also thought about doing all the lesson questions and about half the mixed practice in the morning, and assigning some problems for the evening.

 

I like the Saxon program, and I've seen great strides made in how much the boys have learned and been able to apply this year, so I want to stick with it. But I would like suggestions on reducing the amount of practice and whether this has been a problem for anyone. I KNOW the book says no.

 

The boys are 9, almost 10 and in fourth grade. They are not bad at math, but it isn't their "favorite." :rolleyes:

 

No. Do not skip any problems. If your dss cannot seem to make it through one lesson a day, give them a time limit, say 35 minutes, and put the book away. The next day, have them finish the lesson. Yes, it might take two days to finish a lesson. That's ok. OTOH, many people have been surprised that when they gave their dc a time limit, the dc were able to finish the lesson in that amount of time.

 

Most traditional math texts allow for the teacher to assign only as many problems as they think their students need. However, Saxon is not written like that. Every problem in every problem set is important and is there for a specific reason, not just for the sake of practice.

[MysteryJen]

:iagree:

 

We learned the hard way here, as well.  Do all the problems. When I started making them do all the problems, we started out with a time limit, but in a surprisingly short time they were able to do a lesson a day fairly easily.

[Critterfixer]

Bleh. That's what I figured. Looking at the problems I was having a hard time figuring out which ones I could skip without missing something, and I suspect it would only get worse further in.

Two days per lesson would really make them happy little campers. We just spent three days on decimals, and before that I stretched place value lessons for large numbers over about three to four days. They ended up really getting place value and decimals seem to be coming along well.

 

I'd love to set a time limit, but so far that has ended up with me having to be the big bad wolf---huffing and puffing until the work gets done. I'm really thinking about splitting the math up into two sessions--instruction, select problems in the morning, and independent work in the late afternoon, thus getting one lesson done per day. They tend to work faster in the evenings, because that's cutting into their own time, so whining about math doesn't win them any delay points.

 

 

[MysteryJen]

That sounds like a great solution!

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

We've been at Saxon for 6 years, and this year is the first that I've seen a real speed jump.  Don't skip.  Speed will come eventually, and I suspect it's due in part to the solid base Saxon implants via the spiral.  We did used to break lessons in to two sessions of problems, which worked - morning and afternoon.

[retiredHSmom]

All three of my children have skipped problems in Saxon from 5/4 through advanced math.  Two of them have gone on to Math and Engineering degrees (the third is in algebra 1 right now).  The spiral is important. The way that I handled it was to do the odd problems on odd numbered lessons and the even problems in even numbered lessons. That way they didn't miss too many of any one kind of problem. 

[AmyontheFarm]

I found if I broke the timed drill and mental math into one "class" and then did the lesson reading and lesson practice into a second "class and finally the mixed practice into the third "class" everything became quicker. I think they were seeing the whole elephant and decided they couldn't eat it!

 

This is how our day looks right now:

Mental Math/ Timed Drills

Bible

Lesson and lesson practise

Typing

Mixed Practise

 

Bible and Typing only take about 20 mins each. But, before they were using the same amount of time to just get Math done. Now, we get Math, Bible and Typing done in the same amount of time. Plus, during those 20 minutes, I mark what they just did, so I know immediately if they need help with something.

[regentrude]

Coming from a different perspective:

We skipped a LOT of problems in Saxon 8/7, because my kids did simply not need the amount of practice. With DS we managed to cut enough to condense the entire book into the span of five months, and after that he was well prepared for AoPS Intro to Algebra.

Just because the program says not to skip does not mean that your student would not be perfectly fine if you skip. It does, however, require enough expertise to choose judiciously which problems can safely be omitted.

[Ellie]

Coming from a different perspective:

We skipped a LOT of problems in Saxon 8/7, because my kids did simply not need the amount of practice. With DS we managed to cut enough to condense the entire book into the span of five months, and after that he was well prepared for AoPS Intro to Algebra.

Just because the program says not to skip does not mean that your student would not be perfectly fine if you skip. It does, however, require enough expertise to choose judiciously which problems can safely be omitted.

 

Our own Jann in TX posted this:

 

You will get many different answers to this question. There are many here on the boards who only give the odds or evens out...the PROBLEM with this is that Saxon DOES NOT design their program to be used in this manner (many other texts are designed this way). When you skip problems with Saxon you are setting yourself up for trouble later on...the problem sets do not have ‘evenly spaced’ concepts AND some “concepts†may ‘look’ the same to the untrained parent--BUT each problem is actually teaching/testing in a different area. By routinely skipping problems you are missing out on critical review. In most of the series--7/6 and above the practice problems often DIFFER from the original concept (the one noted by the little number). As the student’s knowledge and experience increases so does their ability to COMBINE concepts. The review problems are often more difficult/complex than the original practice problems.

 

I’m a certified Math teacher--turned homeschool Mother. I have taught/tutored Saxon for over 7 years (1st grade -Advanced Math). The vast majority of the students seeking tutoring in Pre-Algebra and above are those who routinely skipped problems--working only half of the problem set.

 

Skipping problems in the texts below 7/6 MAY work out well for some students as the concepts taught are very basic. From 7/6 on it is very important to work EVERY problem. If the problem set takes ‘too much time’ to do each day most likely the reason is that the student needs MORE practice!!!

 

I have a dd with some learning differences and she has had success working 15-20 problems a day--continuing on the next day without skipping any problems. She completes a little over 3 problem sets a week.

 

Some people are fine with their students making a “B†in math. It is sad that those students could be making “A’s†if only they had used the text the way it was designed!

 

It is probably obvious that I am passionate about this issue. When you choose to use a program such as Saxon that is designed with a complex spiral review it is important to use the program correctly--taking shortcuts will only shortchange your child. There may be other math programs where working only 10-15 problems a day is sufficient--but Saxon is definately NOT one of them.

 

 

 

Janet in WA said this:

 

Saxon did go to a lot of trouble developing the design of those problem sets. Unlike with most textbooks that just offer lots of practice with the same kind of problem where omitting some of them doesn't have much impact, omitting Saxon problems can mean omitting certain kinds of problems entirely from a day's practice. Also, sometimes several problems in a set are related, and doing each of them helps the child understand the nature of the mathematical relationship (i.e. fractions, decimals and percents).

 

 

My friend IdaMay said this:

 

Like Jann, I am a teacher turned homeschooling mom. I have an education background in curriculum development, as well as testing and evaluation.

 

I, too have seen numerous students struggling, who had been using Saxon and skipping problems. I have not seen many struggling who were using the program as Saxon designed it.

 

As far as getting a “B†instead of getting an “A,†I agree with Jann. But along with this, I would say that the degree to which a student actually learns and the length which a student retains the material is greater when all problems in the problem set are completed.

 

Saxon interweaves so much into the problem set it is hard to demonstrate through words on a screen. Not only are the previous concepts reviewed, but they are expanded and combined with other aspects of math along the way. If you were to go through an entire level of Saxon Math and write down all the problems that related to a certain lesson, you would be amazed to see the progression and the development. Not only that, but Saxon often relates one lesson to another by having the students work problems which relate to each other across the lessons, as review is done. Glance through your answer key [especially easy where the problem set answers are in a chart form]. You will see that there are multiple answers that are the same value, but if you look at the problems you will see that the problems were reviewing or expanding different topics. [but the number answer is the same-- this skill of seeing this within the lesson is great for Algebraic thinking and more] These types of things also help the student see the relationships between percents/fractions/decimals and more.

 

It would be much more helpful to spread the lesson out over more than one day and cover the material a bit slower, than to rush through and skip part of the teaching and learning involved. You may find that your student improves their work time and can easily complete an entire lesson in an allotted time frame. [although I have come across some home schoolers who try to complete each subject in 30 minutes, which may be unrealistic for the Algebras or higher]

 

None of this is shared to imply anyone is doing their math lessons wrong, but only to share from experience and research what has shown to work or not to work in other situations, so you can make the choice for your student and your home school.

 

[regentrude]

Our own Jann in TX posted this:

 

Janet in WA said this:

 

My friend IdaMay said this:

 

Which is why I stated explicitly that it requires expertise to know what to omit.

But I have also seen that it clearly worked extremely well for both my kids to do just a small part of the problems, as they both emerged with a thorough understanding of the underlying mathematical concepts and very well prepared for the most rigorous math program. So, I am simply sharing my personal experience with the program as one other data point.

 

I obviously do not know the OP's students, but I am very puzzled by the insistence that a certain program has to be used exactly the same way for every single student. It seems obvious to me that some students would need more review and practice while others would need less, with any given program.

 

[Ellie]

I obviously do not know the OP's students, but I am very puzzled by the insistence that a certain program has to be used exactly the same way for every single student. It seems obvious to me that some students would need more review and practice while others would need less, with any given program.

 

Saxon's lessons aren't just review and practice, as has been said, because Saxon is written differently from other maths. I was just sharing what has been written before. :-)

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

I would think that, like anything in HS, there is a certain trust-your-gut quotient.  We skipped the beginning review pages one year, but the more I've used Saxon, the more I see the genius of the spiral.  DD's mental math skills are getting spooky-fast.  I know it's been discussed elsewhere, but be sure to get those early editions actually written by Hake/Saxon.

[Critterfixer]

 

I obviously do not know the OP's students, but I am very puzzled by the insistence that a certain program has to be used exactly the same way for every single student. It seems obvious to me that some students would need more review and practice while others would need less, with any given program.

 I suspect that may be why many people just plain don't like Saxon.

 

But I'm simply trying to save time, which means that my children just are not up to the speed they need to be to finish a math lesson in an hour or so. And given that they ask me a lot of questions, don't always read the lesson, and don't always listen to me when I teach or pay attention when I do examples on the board and then whine about looking up the very concept they are struggling with, I'd say my students are probably in the needs more review and practice group.

 

I just get bored with going over the same thing over and over again. They probably need to do just that. Gives them a chance to get it one day if they didn't get it before.

 

[Critterfixer]

 

I know it's been discussed elsewhere, but be sure to get those early editions actually written by Hake/Saxon.

 

Where actually do you find those? I've just got the latest 5/4 because that was what I could get. It's not be a bad old book so far, but the layout frustrates me somewhat.

[MeghanL]

Not only am I only assigning odds or evens, but I've also just given my son the chapter test when I think it's getting too easy and move up by chapters until we're where I feel he's being challenged. Apparently, that's not the "right" way to do it. I'm comfortable with the level my son is working. He's not getting B's either, he's still able to get 100% on all his homework and tests. 

It's kind of funny that I've been using it wrong, because I always thought the appeal of Saxon was always being able to tell exactly where your student was with math! If they have any confusion with any concept, it's going to keep cropping up (even if only odd or even numbers are done). If they have mastered a concept, it's going to keep cropping up (and then I just skip it entirely...especially during the early years when we're doing so much calendar & counting work. My child knows the days of the week and will never, ever forget them, we're moving on!!)

That may not be the way the writers intended for me to use their program...but then again I'm sure a lot of curriculum providers would be upset with the amount of tweaking (and outright changing!) I do with their programs too.

It's all about what is or is not working for your child. Personally, I think having a love (or even mild tolerance) of math skipping half the problems will get you further in life than complete misery every day for 2 hours doing every problem. 

[regentrude]

Saxon's lessons aren't just review and practice, as has been said, because Saxon is written differently from other maths. I was just sharing what has been written before. :-)

 

And I was just sharing a personal experience that was contrary to what has "been written".

We are all homeschooling and educating our individual children and making decisions and judgements about curriculum. That something is "written before" does not invalidate my experience. And if it worked for my students, it may also work for others.

 

I am fully capable of understanding that Saxon is written "differently" from other math, and I am fully competent to evaluate the posed problems and judge which of them are necessary for my student's understanding and which of them are not.

I do not need to view the math book as a cult that I have to follow blindly. I do so with no other curriculum either.

 

 

 

 

 

[Critterfixer]

Which is why I stated explicitly that it requires expertise to know what to omit.

 

Not an expert here by any means.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Where actually do you find those? I've just got the latest 5/4 because that was what I could get. It's not be a bad old book so far, but the layout frustrates me somewhat.

 

eBay and Amazon used.  I think he wrote up to edition #3.

 

I'm not sure about the specifics of the new edition complaints, but you can find them on the boards.

[Critterfixer]

But it is interesting to see what other people are doing with it.

 

Most days it is about 2 hours. 1 and 1/2 on a good day. I really ought to take a stopwatch and time the various parts of the math lesson to see where the time is going, but I'd say the vast bulk of it is spent in the mixed practice. Copying down the problems takes a good bit of time, especially when they don't care to copy it down correctly. Which is a function of not liking the subject very much and being in a hurry.

[Critterfixer]

eBay and Amazon used.  I think he wrote up to edition #3.

 

Thanks. I'll take a look and see how they are different. I know one thing I'd like to see is a little bit more time spent on a concept before moving on the next. I might get that by slowing down the curriculum, only I hate to do that because we won't get everything done in our school year. And that's a pain.

 

 

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Thanks. I'll take a look and see how they are different. I know one thing I'd like to see is a little bit more time spent on a concept before moving on the next. I might get that by slowing down the curriculum, only I hate to do that because we won't get everything done in our school year. And that's a pain.

 

There was a year or two (I'm fuzzy) that we extended a little into the summer.  Most days now we run anywhere from 30 to 90 minutes.  It's quite variable, but faster overall than it was.

[Critterfixer]

Thanks, all. I believe I'll set the timer for one hour of math in the mornings, then move on with our school day. We will finish whatever is left (if 30 minutes or less) in the evenings after dinner, as a homework session before relaxing with our books before bed. I'll see how that goes for a while.

[katilac]

Not only am I only assigning odds or evens, but I've also just given my son the chapter test when I think it's getting too easy and move up by chapters until we're where I feel he's being challenged. Apparently, that's not the "right" way to do it.  <snip>

 

Actually, that's exactly what Saxon itself used to recommend - take tests until you score below 80%. Has that changed? 

 

whispers: neither of my kids ever did entire saxon lessons, we would have lost our minds

[gerka528]

I grew up using Saxon and typically just did the odds since the answers were in the back to check.  It worked just fine for me and would probably be fine for certain students, others would need the entire lesson.  

[LindaOz]

I don't have time right now to read all the other responses, so I'm sorry if this has already been said multiple times....

 

The way Saxon is set up is to give constant reinforcement and the problems should NOT be skipped. Often the same type of problem is given in a different way as you progress through the lessons anhd the way it is presented can get more difficult. I think you may run into trouble later if you don't do it all now.

 

However....

 

There's no way kids that age should have to spend 2 hours on math.

 

What I've done with Saxon Math when one of my kids has started to take too long or hit a sticky spot is to halve the lesson by doing odd problems one day and evens the next. They still do the whole lesson but over a two day period. Eventually, they often find that they are later able to go back to full lessons anyway - sometimes even by their own choice :-)

 

HTH

[brownie]

Sorry - we skip.  DS is finishing up pre-algebra right now.  I used to pick the problems for him, mostly choosing the hardest ones, but now I tell him to pick the ones he needs practice at and he does about 15 a day.  Then we move on to the next lesson.  It is a good lesson for him in being accountable for his own education.  By the test, there is never a concept he misunderstands.  He does make some careless errors for which I dock ALL points, but really there is no pressure for a grade and he is pretty detail oriented so I think he will get there with time.  I think for the last 8 lessons or so I will make him do all the problems just to make sure he's got it all down pat before we move on.  But it takes him 1 hour to listen to the video and then do the 15 hardest problems.  I don't want to torture him with 1.5 hrs of math nor do I want to slow his pace because he is totally getting it.  We did Saxon to make sure pre-algebra was solidly in his memory banks.  Before this we did Singapore through 5B standards.

 

We are going to spend the rest of the year (mid-jan through May) doing other stuff and I am looking forward to it...math contest problems, AOPS, hitting some pre-alg concepts Saxon doesn't hit on...fun!

 

Brownie

[kolamum]

We didn't do all the problems when we did 5/4. And, lots of problems were done orally.