College prep for the average student - Skill vs. content - lots of pondering/philosophical thoughts

[elegantlion]

This is not so much a question but a conversation starter. 

 

A mere five weeks into my college experience I already see key areas where ds needs to improve to be successful in college, most of them are in the skill area - areas we are focusing on this year. 

 

He's an average student, possibly a late bloomer, and we're keeping options open on what he wants to study in college. At this point, the schools he's interested in don't even need the common app, they have their own. 

 

So, as I'm mixing up my school & his school, I have all of the great advice from this board that I've gathered over the years running through my head. Maybe this is an evolution (at least in my world) of the breadth vs. depth conversation. 

 

The key elements I keep returning to are to know how to:

 

read well 

write well

Think critically

stay consistent with math 

 

good time management (personal & school)

good study skills

good communication skills

 

After visiting campus a few times, I might add how to properly carry a backpack and own decent walking shoes. 

 

Obviously you could further define each element. I think I'm going to print these key elements and hang in the classroom. Too often this year (as well as previous ones), I get caught up in checking off the list (especially being tired) and I forget to ensure the coverage of each subject is teaching the appropriate skill. Instead of taking time to build the foundation, like writing in his planner, I don't remind him for the hundredth time and it's buried on his bookcase. Instead of taking the time to tell him to file those five papers, we want until the inbox is full and deal with it.

I've read the organization books, he's read a few, but I forget that until he takes over, this is still a foundational skill I need to help with. Like reminding your kids to brush their teeth - I had to do that well longer than I thought was developmentally appropriate - yet one day I forget to remind him and he did it anyway. So why do I think that suddenly at 15 or 16 he should just magically start being academically organized on his own. I've been reminding him, but he's not there yet. Should I go back to the potty-training-patience voice - come on, honey, it's okay, you can try one more time? Probably. Because if I stop he'll never pick up the skill (at least not before chaos overtakes him). 

 

I don't know, none of this is revelation knowledge. In my exhaustion, I'm having to prioritize things a bit differently. This is what keeps coming to the top.  

[Mom22ns]

The key elements I keep returning to are to know how to:

 

read well 

write well

Think critically

stay consistent with math 

 

good time management (personal & school)

good study skills

good communication skills

 

After visiting campus a few times, I might add how to properly carry a backpack and own decent walking shoes. 

 

I really like the list. I can't think of anything to add. Ds is taking his first college class and I think he is using all of those skills. It is going better than I had ever dreamed possible. I'm going to use this list to continually remind myself of what we are trying to accomplish. That even in content classes, these should be goals.

[swimmermom3]

EL,

 

Great post! Coming back for the conversation as soon as I drop ds off at the school for his two classes.

 

A huge "YES!" on the organizational skills.

[regentrude]

I found that the time management and study skills are learned best when they are necessary, but not before. So, if you want him to develop those while in high school, you must crank up the expectations to such a level that he will have to study effectively and be organized. I did not found "dry" practice to be particularly helpful.

 

ETA: DD no longer has a problem of wasting time on the computer because she no longer has any time to waste. She has suddenly become very effective in using her time, down to using wisely those small chunks of time that are spread throughout the day - because she is dealing with a heavy class load that makes such skills necessary. Nothing we did before it was necessary accomplished the same.

 

 

Another thing that may be crucial for college success is to know when top ask for help and not be too proud to do so. Colleges nowadays bend over backwards to offer learning assistance, but the student who would most benefit from those opportunities are not using them. Drill it into your student's head that office hours, homework help, and tutoring are good things and that it is a hallmark of a successful student to be proactive and avail himself of those opportunities.

[Miss Mousie]

Oooooh, this is going to be a great conversation!  Thanks for starting it, EL.  I don't have any experience to add, but I sure do have a lot to learn!

 

 

I've read the organization books, he's read a few, but I forget that until he takes over, this is still a foundational skill I need to help with. Like reminding your kids to brush their teeth - I had to do that well longer than I thought was developmentally appropriate - yet one day I forget to remind him and he did it anyway. So why do I think that suddenly at 15 or 16 he should just magically start being academically organized on his own. I've been reminding him, but he's not there yet. Should I go back to the potty-training-patience voice - come on, honey, it's okay, you can try one more time? Probably. Because if I stop he'll never pick up the skill (at least not before chaos overtakes him). 

 

The bolded is one thing that has been making me crazy.  I find myself saying things like, "really?  At 12 years old you still can't remember to write down assignments even though the routine has been the same for the last four years?"  Not helpful, I know, but it's so frustrating.

 

 

I found that the time management and study skills are learned best when they are necessary, but not before. So, if you want him to develop those while in high school, you must crank up the expectations to such a level that he will have to study effectively and be organized. I did not found "dry" practice to be particularly helpful.

 

ETA: DD no longer has a problem of wasting time on the computer because she no longer has any time to waste. She has suddenly become very effective in using her time, down to using wisely those small chunks of time that are spread throughout the day - because she is dealing with a heavy class load that makes such skills necessary. Nothing we did before it was necessary accomplished the same.

 

 

Another thing that may be crucial for college success is to know when top ask for help and not be too proud to do so. Colleges nowadays bend over backwards to offer learning assistance, but the student who would most benefit from those opportunities are not using them. Drill it into your student's head that office hours, homework help, and tutoring are good things and that it is a hallmark of a successful student to be proactive and avail himself of those opportunities.

 

I completely agree with you, Regentrude.

 

My son is in 7th grade in public school.  To my relief, he is finally starting to feel the consequences of not writing down assignments - currently he is getting a C in three classes, solely because of late or missing work - but now his teachers have decided to intervene by making him attend their new after-school homework time.  They are wrong in a number of ways: 1) the problem is that he doesn't list the assignments - how do they expect teachers who do not teach his classes to know what he is supposed to do when he hasn't written it down?; 2) the other problem is that he is disorganized and neglects to submit completed work - how do they expect Tuesday's homework session to affect completely unrelated actions on Wednesday?; and 3) the problem is NOT that he lacks time and space and assistance to complete his assignments on his own - so why do they think providing less of what he already has is going to accomplish anything?  And why, why, are they trying to stand in the way of him experiencing exactly the consequences that will inspire him to change and grow?

 

Sorry, rant over.

 

[regentrude]

My son is in 7th grade in public school.  To my relief, he is finally starting to feel the consequences of not writing down assignments - currently he is getting a C in three classes, solely because of late or missing work - but now his teachers have decided to intervene by making him attend their new after-school homework time.  They are wrong in a number of ways: 1) the problem is that he doesn't list the assignments - how do they expect teachers who do not teach his classes to know what he is supposed to do when he hasn't written it down?; 2) the other problem is that he is disorganized and neglects to submit completed work - how do they expect Tuesday's homework session to affect completely unrelated actions on Wednesday?; and 3) the problem is NOT that he lacks time and space and assistance to complete his assignments on his own - so why do they think providing less of what he already has is going to accomplish anything?  And why, why, are they trying to stand in the way of him experiencing exactly the consequences that will inspire him to change and grow?

 

Actually, having him attend the homework time can still be beneficial, because it takes away free time and acts as a punishment. If he hates going there enough, he will get his act together and do what is necessary so that he can go home. I would imagine that losing free time is much more motivating to a teenager than having a low grade.

[Miss Mousie]

Actually, having him attend the homework time can still be beneficial, because it takes away free time and acts as a punishment. If he hates going there enough, he will get his act together and do what is necessary so that he can go home. I would imagine that losing free time is much more motivating to a teenager than having a low grade.

 

Generally speaking, I would agree with you.  DS, however, seems happy about it, which I suspect is because 1) he doesn't have to think for himself, he can just ask the teacher and get the answer; and 2) they allow internet access (which he does not have at home except with specific permission and supervision).

 

I did, however, cancel the martial arts class he was supposed to begin this week, and he will not be allowed to join the school newspaper this quarter, both because of the schedule conflict engendered by the homework session.  Maybe that will be sufficient to open his eyes.

[Miss Mousie]

Anyway - getting back to the subject at hand - I want to pretend I am homeschooling a boy entirely on my own (with no outside/outsourced classes).  How would I implement Regentrude's suggestion of setting up a situation where the boy can't progress without building the organizational skills?

 

I think I'd start with one subject - say, math.  I'd use a small whiteboard for demonstrations.  At the beginning of that class, I'd have the homework assignment already written on it.  Then, as I went through the lesson and it became time to demonstrate on the white board, I'd erase the assignment so I can use that space.

 

At first, at the beginning of the class, I'd tell him to write it down.  Later, I wouldn't mention it until I was about to erase it - "did you write that down?" - then give him a minute to do so if he hadn't on his own.  Still later, I'd just erase it without comment.

 

Then, if he hadn't written it down and thus did not complete the assignment, then the next day I would do my best to repeat the prior day's demonstration because by not completing the assignment he would not be ready to move on.  Then I'd hope like heck that I'd only have to repeat the same stuff for one or two days before he got so bored that he finally gets with the program.

 

I have no idea if that would work, obviously, as I am inexperienced and only pretending.  It might create some temporary nastiness between teacher and student - but if it's only done with one class to start, it might be a milder way to get the point across without causing too much strife.

 

[Teachin'Mine]

I understand that you're looking for natural consequences, and it certainly doesn't hurt for him to get a low grade or two in 7th, but you might want to talk with his teachers and have them make sure he's got the assignments written down, in a specific assignment book, before he leaves the classroom.  Hopefully it would become a habit and their reminding/checking won't be necessary for long. 

 

Martial arts might be just what he needs to help him to become more responsible.  A good martial arts instructor will make sure that they are applying discipline to their academics as well as the martial art. 

 

With internet access and all, I agree that the homework session won't be a deterrent for him.  I'd definitely talk with his teachers.

 

 

 

ETA:   Elegantlion I agree with Regentrude.  Knowing when and how to get help on campus is critical.  So many put it off until their grade has already suffered, or it's so far along in the semester that it's near impossible for them to "catch up".  

[swimmermom3]

I found that the time management and study skills are learned best when they are necessary, but not before. So, if you want him to develop those while in high school, you must crank up the expectations to such a level that he will have to study effectively and be organized. I did not found "dry" practice to be particularly helpful.

 

ETA: DD no longer has a problem of wasting time on the computer because she no longer has any time to waste. She has suddenly become very effective in using her time, down to using wisely those small chunks of time that are spread throughout the day - because she is dealing with a heavy class load that makes such skills necessary. Nothing we did before it was necessary accomplished the same.

 

 

Another thing that may be crucial for college success is to know when top ask for help and not be too proud to do so. Colleges nowadays bend over backwards to offer learning assistance, but the student who would most benefit from those opportunities are not using them. Drill it into your student's head that office hours, homework help, and tutoring are good things and that it is a hallmark of a successful student to be proactive and avail himself of those opportunities.

 

Thank you for sharing your dd's experience; it gives me hope that my son too will get there. This year, his workload has increased significantly and managing that coursework along with sailing has involved a steep and occasionally painful learning curve. 

 

Previously I have been a big advocate for the "dry" practice of organizational skills, as regentrude labeled it, and for my kids, I haven't found it to be all that effective. One of the reasons is that solutions are often situation-specific. What has been more helpful is to teach my son to recognize when there is an issue, what the issue is, how it occurred, and possible ways to fix it.

 

Some of this would seem obvious, but it isn't always that for the half-formed teen mind. A student will often think they are just not good at a subject, when much of the issue is waiting until the last minute to do the work and being rushed. This is less relevant for the homeschooled student, but many homeschooled high school students have at least one if not more outsourced classes. My son has mastered problem identification, but still needs input on organizational solutions, because some are outside of his realm of experience.

 

An outsourced AP course is providing ds with numerous learning opportunities to hone his time management skills. His daily coursework has two parts: a morning message to read and respond to (15-45 minutes) and the writing work (45 mins - 2 hours). He has learned to get up 30 minutes earlier to do the morning message before his two other outside classes. I had to develop a spine and not allow his outside work to encroach on my classes with him, so he knows if he fails to get the morning message done that he will have to resort to writing and sending his response from his iphone when the commuter train on the way to sailing hits the free WiFi spot.

 

His terrific instructor posts two week's worth of assignments in advance and ds has started to take advantage of that. You have no idea how much that thrills me. He tries to get Monday and Tuesday's work done over the weekend as he has discovered an additional advantage if the work involves responding to a discussion. We are on the West Coast and if he responded the day the work was due and did so after outside classes, my classes, and sailing, he would be one of the last to respond. This involves reading through numerous previous posts and being left with few original insights to add. It is much better to be one of the first posters. Ds enjoys the class and is highly motivated to do well in it, and in turn is more motivated to figure out the organizational piece than he would ever be with my nagging him about generic skills.

 

About teaching your student to ask for help, I can't emphasize enough how important it is that your student learn that skill. My dd refused to ask questions for fear of "looking dumb." It took far too long for us to convince her that by refusing to ask questions she was actually placing herself in the position of "being dumb." She missed foundational skills which were important for work later in the course. Make sure your college student really understands before they leave for college, that the professor is there to help them. I had a rather ivory tower view of college professors and it took me, I think, two years to figure out that office hours actually existed for the students' benefit. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

[swimmermom3]

Miss Mousie,

 

Later today I will see if I can pull up some of our best threads with regards to 7th and 8th grade boys. Your son is in no way unusual and there numerous parents on this board can share in your agony. Drop your vision of what "organized" looks like in your mind, because I can tell you that it isn't even a blip on the radar screen in your son's mind. You both would be better served if you sat down with him and asked him what his classroom routine is. Pay close attention. While it may make sense to you to put new work in a binder behind the appropriate tab while still in class, your son may think that takes way too much time. If he follows the usual pattern, he probably files all of his work at the bottom of his backpack, even the completed work which will not surface on its due it. Custom-tailor a solution for your son, not you. Perhaps he just needs one folder for completed homework and for new work handed out. Every scrap of paper goes into there during the day and you both can take a few minutes at home to find a better location for anything that is no longer timely. Make it a one-step process. Get fancy or "perfect" and you will lose him.

 

You also may find better results if you remove computer or TV privileges at home as opposed to a physical activity, especially at this age as the physical activity helps them focus a mind that has a million disconnected thoughts flowing through it randomly at any given time.

 

Also, be careful about your assumptions as to what your son knows. My oldest son came home for school for his junior year. I was a bit surprised to find that it never crossed his mind to save chapter tests to study from for the final. You will be stunned and amazed to discover what has never crossed your student's mind.

[Lori D.]

This is not so much a question but a conversation starter.... 

 

I already see key areas where ds needs to improve to be successful in college...

 

read well 

write well

Think critically

stay consistent with math 

 

good time management (personal & school)

good study skills

good communication skills

 

... how to properly carry a backpack and own decent walking shoes

 

 

... know when top ask for help and not be too proud to do so... office hours, homework help, and tutoring are good things...

 

 

 

Great thoughts! :)

 

Not sure how much our DSs got out of the 10-hour study skills class they did, but it at least exposed them to some tools and tips. Really, as with everything with raising children, it boils down to how WILLING are they to *receive* and put into practice the wisdom and knowledge being handed to them...  :tongue_smilie:

 

I do think it was still worthwhile to go over these types of skills, and I do think practice in high school is helpful for at least making sure they understand how to use those tools and tips to have as a help to them later on in college or on the job. So, my contribution to this thread is to add to the thought of PRACTICE.

 

We practiced note-taking through me requiring note-taking for the Teaching Company lecture series portion of the Economics credit. I think it helped DSs hone how to listen for key points and important information. And then I had them practice studying from their own notes by giving them a quiz on each lecture; that helped them see if they were targeting the key info points or not in their note-taking.

 

Outsourcing a few things was also helpful -- being responsible to someone other than parents makes it more serious and "real". Also the opportunity to learn classroom skills. Both DSs really stepped up their game when they were taking dual enrollment classes at the CC in their senior years.

 

Weekly practice of timed essays from prompts all through high school really helped them get comfortable with thinking and writing quickly, supporting their contention, and organizing their writing. Now in college, they haven't had too many timed essay tests, but the ones they did have did not intimidate or throw them because we'd done so much timed writing to answer a question with specific support.

 

 

A few other thoughts of things to practice before college/career, just from seeing our DSs' experiences:

 

Public Speaking — opportunities to present / demonstrate / teach / speak to a group / committee / audience / class

Some classes require discussion and participation as part of the grade. Others require presentations. SO much more helpful for the student to have already practiced speaking in front of a group to learn how to deal with the stress of preparation and anxieties of public speaking so when it really "counts" for a college grade or job presentation you can just focus on what you're going to say/present and not be ALSO having to overcome the hurdle of it being your first time in front of a group. 

 

 

Multi-page Papers with Citations, in MLA and APA styles

Make sure you do a number of these types of papers BEFORE hitting college. Work out all the quirks and requirements (typeface, spacing, headings, page numberings, punctuation, quotations, citations, etc.) of both MLA and APA styles. Also, it gives you a chance to figure out what resources you like to use to help in the writing, such as OWL at Purdue, or a citation generator site such as Easy Bib.  It's SO much easier to write college papers if you don't have to also be wrestling through learning how to format and adhere to a specific style.

 

 

Scheduling Papers and Projects into Manageable Chunks

REALLY important to learn how to "divide and conquer" while still in high school. I think by having a series of deadlines for each paper all through high school can help practice this:

 

- outline due on date 1

- make comments and hand it back

- rough draft due on date 2, a few days or a week after date 1

- make comments and hand back or, even better, go over it together

- revised draft due on date 3, 1-3 days after date 2

- mark arrows next to lines where the student needs to find errors and proof-edit, and hand back

- final draft due on date 4, 1-3 days after date 3

 

 

Handling an Online Class

Both our DSs had MAJOR "oopsies" with an online class -- in both cases, it was actually the *second* time they took an online course -- I think they both got too confidence and breezy about it and then it got away from them. If you can at all practice this by outsourcing a high school course, it's really worth it to get the "oopsie" out of the way before college/career:

 

- learning how to navigate the system and do the required uploads of papers

- how to access the materials online or downloads

- learning how to keep on top of deadlines

- learning how to schedule yourself

- DON'T wait until just hours before the midnight deadline to upload / take the online tests -- the systems CRASH OFTEN and then you are hosed (sadly, personal experiences speaking here)

[regentrude]

Anyway - getting back to the subject at hand - I want to pretend I am homeschooling a boy entirely on my own (with no outside/outsourced classes).  How would I implement Regentrude's suggestion of setting up a situation where the boy can't progress without building the organizational skills?

 

I start with my kids in one subject. In 9th grade, I have them work along in a class I teach at college - they are not actually enrolled, and the class is not really outsourced as I am doing all the teaching, but I expect them to follow my schedule, complete my assignments, and work rigidly scheduled timed tests. Including them in the framework of an already existing class makes it easier, but I do not see a reason why it should be impossible to replicate it at home. The framework just makes it clear that work is non-negotiable and deadlines are firm, and that they are held accountable for keeping up with the assigned reading.

I do not think it is necessary to implement such a structure across the board in all subjects from the beginning, but it gives them a way to practice. I prefer a much more relaxed approach in the other subjects, because I do not want them to spend all the high school years under high pressure.

In the later high school years, however, you'd have to ramp it up in every subject to create enough pressure to necessitate time management and organizational skills, and it would require a lot of work and a high tolerance for parent-child friction to pull that off. Usually the high schoolers work more diligently for somebody else than for their own parent. But again, not impossible. For us, dual enrollment is working wonderfully.

 

[JennW in SoCal]

I found that the time management and study skills are learned best when they are necessary, but not before. So, if you want him to develop those while in high school, you must crank up the expectations to such a level that he will have to study effectively and be organized. I did not found "dry" practice to be particularly helpful.

 

ETA: DD no longer has a problem of wasting time on the computer because she no longer has any time to waste. She has suddenly become very effective in using her time, down to using wisely those small chunks of time that are spread throughout the day - because she is dealing with a heavy class load that makes such skills necessary. Nothing we did before it was necessary accomplished the same.

 

 

Another thing that may be crucial for college success is to know when top ask for help and not be too proud to do so. Colleges nowadays bend over backwards to offer learning assistance, but the student who would most benefit from those opportunities are not using them. Drill it into your student's head that office hours, homework help, and tutoring are good things and that it is a hallmark of a successful student to be proactive and avail himself of those opportunities.

 

Yes, yes, yes! to all the above.  

 

The hardest thing I ever did, but also the best thing, was to stay out of the way when my 15yo took Algebra II at the community college.  I didn't ask about homework or tests except in a general way, and bit my tongue knowing my ds would likely fail a midterm.  He did fail it and was mortified.  He started studying after that and finished the class with a B.  (He is now a math minor getting straight A's.)   I did emphasize the importance of talking with professor, of asking a question during or after class.  My ds rolled his eyes at me for most of the semester, but, three years later, he now is very engaged with his professors and often stays after classes to chat with them.  Oh yes, one other thing I tried to insist upon during high school -- keeping a calendar?  It was ignored, forgotten -- one mom's idiosyncratic ideas.  This same kid, now a college sophomore, keeps a calendar a list of deadlines because he sees the need for it.  

 

Which leads me to another point.  Part of the reason, at least in my case, why dry run time management practice didn't work was that mommy deadlines were hard to take seriously.  Grades were meaningless before the age of 15 -- there was no cause and effect to school in general. School was something imposed on their life.  I was a relaxed homeschooler, too.  I expected lots, but didn't approach it formally. Once they started seeing the big picture, that college was the path to a specific career goal, grades started to matter, but outside grades given by outside authority were the most important to them.  

 

So I think, back to the OP's list, my relaxed homeschooling approach prepared them to read well and critically think because they know how to become engaged in a topic.  They like to learn just because it is interesting. They write well and were prepared for math (the failed midterm aside) because we consistently worked on those skills.

 

Time management and study skills were something I could emulate and expound upon, but they had to figure it out and did figure it out when it mattered.  Communication skills, they think, came about from all the theater classes they took.  

[Mom22ns]

I found that the time management and study skills are learned best when they are necessary, but not before. So, if you want him to develop those while in high school, you must crank up the expectations to such a level that he will have to study effectively and be organized. I did not found "dry" practice to be particularly helpful.

 

Can I just say this is one of the most encouraging things I have ever read. It makes perfect sense and I've seen it in my kids but I really needed to see it in print.

 

Dd was incredibly organized and a master of time management when she was in public school and doing competitive gymnastics. By 7, she looked ahead to study for tests, made use of small time blocks, kept careful track of everything. The last 5 years while homeschooing, I've been very frustrated because the skill seemed to disappear. I see now it is because her schedule is less stressful, she hasn't had need of those skills. They will probably return when she can start doing dual enrollment. <big sigh>

 

Ds has never had good time management or organization skills. He has multiple LDs and I just thought it was hopeless. Taking his first DE class this semester, he has written down everything and managed time beautifully. He couldn't do it when he was younger and in ps. Then it wasn't necessary as a homeschooler, but now he needs to and is. Perfect.

 

Another thing that may be crucial for college success is to know when top ask for help and not be too proud to do so. 

This is one I've really stressed with my kids and had a hard time teaching. My kids were both in ps before homeschooling. They both told me that in ps you are supposed to sit down and shut up, no questions allowed. It has been very difficult to convince them figuring out when to ask a question is a skill and an important one. I was gratified a couple of weeks ago when ds was unsure about an aspect of an assignment for his college class and decided to email his teacher. Then last week he stayed after class to ask another question. Amazing! 

 

I do think a very important piece of the puzzle is that these skill have to be necessary in order for kids to bother with them. DE has brought out the best in ds and given him a chance to practice before the load ramps up to full time college.

[Nan in Mass]

Hmm...

I am a HUGE believer in skills over content.  I spent most of my hours with my children during high school working on skills  I think, however, that it is hard to practise some skills without a certain knowledge base (content).  Many of the academic skills one needs to hone during high school depend on being able to compare, assess, link, or transfer one bit of knowledge to another.  That requires a certain amount of knowledge with which to work.  The higher up in academics one is, the more of a knowledge base is needed, usually.  Science is a good example of this.  I'm sure it is possible to take a college science class with very little previous knowledge of science, but I think one would be at a severe disadvantage if one were missing all the basic vocabulary and knowledge of how things work.  I also would add some things to your skills list.  I'm not exactly sure what critical thinking skills are.  Perhaps assessing the amount of truth a statement holds, distinguish subjective from objective, quantitative from qualitative?  I would add observation/noticing, measuring, problem solving, researching (finding information), listening study skills (both organizational and picking out main point, memorizing, organizing information, etc.), experiment design/scientific method, a certain something which I suppose I think of as "being creative" but which is more a matter of knowing how to sort of not think about somehting until inspiration strikes, and probably some other skills that I am forgetting lol.  And being me, I would add a foreign language, drawing , music, and physical coordination to that list, but I know these are not a priority for other families.  And now I've taken your nice simple list and complicated it.  Oops...

 

I agree with Regentrude about some skills not developing until they are needed.  We also found cc classes to be a good place to develop those skills.

 

And I agree about asking for help.  I think part of asking for help is learning to identify the problem.  This is part of problem solving.  I almost want to add devloping curiosity to that skills list because it is such an important part of learning something properly, rather than sketchily.

 

Nan

[Miss Mousie]

 

Public Speaking — opportunities to present / demonstrate / teach / speak to a group / committee / audience / class

Some classes require discussion and participation as part of the grade. Others require presentations. SO much more helpful for the student to have already practiced speaking in front of a group to learn how to deal with the stress of preparation and anxieties of public speaking so when it really "counts" for a college grade or job presentation you can just focus on what you're going to say/present and not be ALSO having to overcome the hurdle of it being your first time in front of a group. 

 

 

I thought all of your suggestions were good, Lori, but I think public speaking in particular is easiest to overlook. 

 

Elegant Lion, if there is a Toastmasters in your area, I think that would be a great way to get practice without having to construct some kind of ad hoc audience (like giving a speech to the grandparents, for example).

 

I'm keeping it in mind for when DS is a little older.  I imagine I'll have to think up a pretty spectacular bribe to get him to go!

[Lori D.]

...  if there is a Toastmasters in your area, I think that would be a great way to get practice without having to construct some kind of ad hoc audience (like giving a speech to the grandparents, for example)...

 

 

Yes, DSs have said several times how glad they are that we did things that involved Public Speaking in high school (though they were not completely happy about it at the time... ;))

 

We did a 10-week homeschool co-op class for the "formal" aspect of Public Speaking, and then DSs got LOADS of practice through YMCA Youth & Gov't weekly meetings practicing bill debate, and then doing bill debate "for real" with a much larger group of high school students at the Capital for the mock legislation session. They each enjoyed it so much they participated 3 years! Mock Trial or Model UN would also be great.

 

Another great formal public speaking opportunity besides Toastmasters is joining a high school speech/debate team or club, or a regional homeschool speech & debate group.

 

Other ways to practice informal small group public speaking / discussion are through 4-H, book club, DECA, summer academic or leadership camps, JSA, church youth group, Civil Air Patrol, etc.

 

 

These all do "double duty" in learning how to WRITE in an organized way with support for your points in your presentations and speeches. And, someone other than family is the audience. And, not only do these extracurriculars build other leadership and responsibility skills and being accountable to someone outside of parents for deadlines -- they look super for college admissions and scholarship applications. ;)

[texasmama]

One of the great benefits of my kids attending a co-op class is that they must learn to follow a syllabus, study for tests, complete homework, organize their time to meet co-op class expectations around our other homeschooling and extracurriculars and that a consequence exists for not meeting expectations.  (My boys take Latin and science at co-op.)  I am mostly uninvolved with their co-op classes.  They have learned to study for tests the hard and effective way, by taking tests and doing poorly and learning how to improve their studying from that experience.  I couldn't help them in Latin if I had to so that has forced some independence in that subject.

 

My almost 13 year old does not have a stellar record of being organized.  He has been prone to losing things and forgetting things.  His belongings are disorganized.  But I have been very pleased with his ability to organize and manage his co-op classes.

 

EL, nice post and great thoughts to read from others.  If I had to choose two major goals for my kids to prepare them for college, I would choose excellence in math and writing.  I think that with those two skills, most other things can be learned during the experience.

[Maureen]

Miss Mousie,

 

I have a friend with a son in ps who required her son to take a picture of the homework assignment on the board with his phone and email it to her as confirmation.  Just a thought if you want some initial accountability to encourage him to get the assignments written down.

[Kfamily]

Thank you so much for starting this conversation, EL! I'm subscribing to it right now. :)

 

Thanks to everyone's advice and suggestions so far.

[Nan in Mass]

Mine did speech at the community college, then composition. The speech made a super intro to the composition because it contained all the same elements but without the writing-it-down part. And they got the experience with public speaking. They also did our church's lobby-your-state-house program. (This involved picking an issue involving children, researching it, and then going to the state house.) Friends have said that 4H was a great way to learn to do presentations and speeches.

 

I think the taking a photo on the phone idea is brilliant. : ) Not necessarily the confirmation part (although I can see where that would be good training wheels) but the capturing the assignment part. It still needs to be transfered to a calendar later, but that can be done at the end of the day, when there is time.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Sorry not to combine posts. I haven't been able to quote for some time and now it appears that edit is also not working for me. Sigh.

 

There are so many things invovled in learning in a class setting that my children did not learn in a homeschool setting. This was partly because of the way we homeschooled. Homeschooling two children in the home has to be very rigid to imitate the classroom setting and this seemed very contrived and artificial to my children, making them less than willing participants any time I tried. I refused to homeschool unwilling children, so there were things I was unable to teach at home. Having grown up in school, it was hard for me even to see what these things were until the older one took his first classes at the community college. Fortunately, his advisor, who dealt with international students and students who for one reason or another (like family problems) had not learned those lessons in high school, had a better idea of what those things were than I did and suggested that we start with easy classes. I know there are people who go straight from all at home to a four year university program, but I seriously doubt my children could have. They had too little experience with textbooks, tests, grades, taking lecture notes, schedules, non-mum teachers, school computer systems, syllabi, tutoring, office hours, and laboratories. They didn't know how to find their classes (difficult if you don't know that buildings have names and the hundreds digit indicates floor) or take a tray through a school cafeteria. They had trouble remembering to put their name on their paper. Most of these things are not difficult to figure out, but when you add them all up, they can be pretty overwhelming, especially if you are living away from home for the first time. I think some classroom experience before college is a good idea.

 

Nan

[elegantlion]

So much great information, thanks. I skimmed yesterday as ds and I ended up sick. 

 

In my skimming, what I'm taking away is what Nan addresses above. "I think some classroom experience before college is a good idea." How to make that happen can depend upon the student and your opportunities. 

[Nan in Mass]

I just posted in Jean's thread about visual/spacial students and that reminded me of something.  I think for a college prep student, learning to learn from a textbook is important.  You can turn the content of a textbook into SKILLS by taking the approach described in Robinson's What Smart Students Know.  If you did everything he says for every class, it would be massive overkill.  I very much like that it teaches one to approach learning by asking questions and rearranging and DOING things with one's notes.  For my children, just telling then to "read the textbook and take notes" would be a disaster.  They need to read the textbook sideways and they need to DO things with the notes, not just take them and memorize them.

 

Nan

[Jilly]

Thank you for starting this thread. There is so much great information here. :)  

 

 

In my skimming, what I'm taking away is what Nan addresses above. "I think some classroom experience before college is a good idea." How to make that happen can depend upon the student and your opportunities. 

 

I think this is true. Although the twins do not have classroom experience yet, they are enrolled in online classes and I have noticed those are the classes they care about most. They always do their homework for these classes and are generally on top of things in a way that they aren't with their other work. Also my son has learned to ask his Algebra 2 teacher for help when he needs it. This is a boy who hardly used his email prior to this year, but now he is writing an email almost daily to his teacher without any prompting from me. 

 

They will also be starting their first community college course in fall. We decided to start out with a college study skills course, and I am hoping that will provide them with some skills that they will need for high school and college.

[Nan in Mass]

So going back to the philosophical here  (rather than practical advice of getting classroom experience) - A HUGE part of my children's education consisted in trying to teach them to teach themselves.  It took me a long time to realize what exactly those skills look like, despite TWTM spelling them out.  Sigh.  Much of what is labeled study skills is really the  academic skills needed to to teach oneself something in an academic way.  There are many ways to learn something.  Since one of my children struggled with academics, one of there things I had to decide was whether I was going to find other ways for my son to learn the things people usually learn in school in an academic way, or whether I was going to sacrifice some of those things and concentrate on developing academic skills.  In the end, I opted to sacrifice content in order to build skills.  I wish I had sacrificed even more content and improved the skills even more but it took time for me to get all this figured out.  Sometimes the two weren't in conflict at all, but usually they were.

 

Nan

[Corraleno]

read well 

write well

Think critically

stay consistent with math 

 

:iagree:

And, IMHO, critical & analytical thinking is the most important skill of all, because it's absolutely foundational to the rest of them. "Reading well" means the ability to read closely and critically, and to analyze what you read. Of course "writing well" requires a decent grasp of grammar, but even more importantly, it requires the ability to analyze and synthesize information so that what you say is meaningful, original and well-reasoned, not just grammatically correct. And critical/analytical thinking is crucial to developing a true conceptual understanding of math, rather than just memorizing algorithms.

 

Plus, you can start working on critical/analytical skills even before kids learn to read, write, or do math, and continue even when they struggle in those other areas, even (especially) when there are significant LDs in those other areas. IMO "critical thinking" workbooks (and even formal logic texts) are just not the same thing as actually engaging with real-world information and puzzling things out, looking for patterns, trying to come up with your own explanations for things and analyzing "received" explanations to see if they really hold water, etc. Teaching Co lectures that present/defend/refute theories, documentaries that reflect that real process of science, complete with errors, dead-ends, and paradigm shifts (NOVA often does a good job with this), and real (published) academic papers and essays, can serve as models for critical thinking; real, hands-on, student-designed experiments (not "demonstrations" where the outcome is known), Socratic questioning, and discussion, discussion, and more discussion, are great for getting kids to start applying those skills for themselves.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

good time management (personal & school)

good study skills

good communication skills

 

Time management and study skills are areas where I've focused a LOT of effort, since DS is ADD and has major executive function issues. (As does DH, but I think DH's advice to DS — "Just marry someone exactly like your mom" — is not a realistic solution! Not to mention the fact that it's somewhat annoying that DH is essentially subletting part of my brain to manage all those tasks he can't.)

 

Anyway, I will throw out some of the things that have worked well with DS so far, in case they're useful to anyone else:

 

He uses this 8.5x11 planner, which has one week per two-page spread. It has vertical columns for the days, with times (in 15 min increments) written down the left side, and a section for notes on the right side. I bought him a bunch of colored highlighters, and he uses a different color for each subject. (I don't schedule his time, other than suggesting that he get the most difficult subjects out of the way first, when he tends to be more focused.) For each subject, he colors in part of the column during the time he worked on it — IOW, if he does Latin on Thursday from 9:30-11:15, he colors that part of the Thursday column with green highlighter, and will sometimes add details in pen (e.g. "submitted HW"). He pre-highlights any fixed items, like online class sessions, at the beginning of the week, and blocks out things like ortho appointments, fencing class, competitions, etc. That way he can see, at the beginning of each week, exactly how much time is available for school work.

 

When I first set up this system, DS was shocked by how much "blank space" there was on his planner at the end of the week. He felt like he'd been "doing schoolwork" all day every day, and yet when he added up the actual hours that he'd been doing focused work, it was waaaaay less than he thought. The first couple of weeks, I actually made him write "farting around" in all the blank spaces.  :tongue_smilie: That was a huge wake-up call for him, and it was objective evidence, not just a "difference of opinion" between us over whether he was using his time efficiently.

 

Another really important thing he learned from documenting his time this way, is that it's much more efficient for him to focus on 3 or 4 subjects per day, and do larger blocks of time, rather than trying to fit in an hour or so of every subject every day. With so many subjects, there were too many blank spaces between each one, and it was harder for him to keep switching gears and refocusing. So now he tends to do his subjects in larger blocks, and there is far less white space on his planner.

 

As for keeping his notes and assignments organized, I set up a series of OneNote folders and page templates for each subject for him. The template I used for the note pages are Cornell Note style, so he can take notes during lectures (online or Teaching Co) and on his readings, and then go back and annotate/summarize them. No more loose papers to get lost, trashed, or ruined by spilled coffee! I also like the fact that OneNote autosaves, so he will never again lose several days' work because he forget to save.

 

Jackie

 

[Corraleno]

I understand that you're looking for natural consequences, and it certainly doesn't hurt for him to get a low grade or two in 7th, but you might want to talk with his teachers and have them make sure he's got the assignments written down, in a specific assignment book, before he leaves the classroom.  Hopefully it would become a habit and their reminding/checking won't be necessary for long. 

 

Martial arts might be just what he needs to help him to become more responsible.  A good martial arts instructor will make sure that they are applying discipline to their academics as well as the martial art. 

 

:iagree:  with both of these points.

 

Having a teacher check that assignments are written down is a very common component in IEPs for kids with EF issues.

 

And martial arts are great for instilling discipline and responsibility. When my kids were doing TKD, all the kids had to get their teachers to sign off on a sheet at the end of every week, saying that they were keeping up with their school work, as well as having parents sign off that they had been kind, respectful, had done their chores, etc.

 

Jackie

[regentrude]

 I bought him a bunch of colored highlighters, and he uses a different color for each subject. (I don't schedule his time, other than suggesting that he get the most difficult subjects out of the way first, when he tends to be more focused.) For each subject, he colors in part of the column during the time he worked on it — IOW, if he does Latin on Thursday from 9:30-11:15, he colors that part of the Thursday column with green highlighter, and will sometimes add details in pen (e.g. "submitted HW"). He pre-highlights any fixed items, like online class sessions, at the beginning of the week, and blocks out things like ortho appointments, fencing class, competitions, etc. That way he can see, at the beginning of each week, exactly how much time is available for school work.

 

When I first set up this system, DS was shocked by how much "blank space" there was on his planner at the end of the week. He felt like he'd been "doing schoolwork" all day every day, and yet when he added up the actual hours that he'd been doing focused work, it was waaaaay less than he thought.

 

I agree.

I wrote in Joan's thread about logging that this was the biggest benefit of having my kids log their school hours: they got to see where their time went! It is a big eye opener, and I can highly recommend it. (We are not using such a highly visual method, but simply write down times and subject)

[Miss Mousie]

 The first couple of weeks, I actually made him write "farting around" in all the blank spaces.  :tongue_smilie:

 

:laugh:   Brilliant!

 

I was trying to stop derailing the thread, but several people have commented on the cancellation of martial arts.  He had never taken it before, so this would have been his first time, and because of the (hopefully temporary) schedule conflict it will have to wait.  I really hope I can get him signed up again in two or three months.

[Mom22ns]

 

Another really important thing he learned from documenting his time this way, is that it's much more efficient for him to focus on 3 or 4 subjects per day, and do larger blocks of time, rather than trying to fit in an hour or so of every subject every day. With so many subjects, there were too many blank spaces between each one, and it was harder for him to keep switching gears and refocusing. So now he tends to do his subjects in larger blocks, and there is far less white space on his planner now.

 

 

This is something we have found too.  It is especially true of ds who comes with a bunch of LDs that make transitioning, and time management difficult. If he can just get situated and work on something in a focused way, he can get a lot done. The fewer changes each day the more he gets done. He can work very efficiently for hours once he is working.

 

We have gone to a semester blocks system to make organize into about 4 classes per semester with more time daily for each. It is more like a college schedule. weekly or daily blocks can also be good, or being like Regentrude and just letting kids work as long as they want on a subject before moving on. 

 

When kids are young, they don't have the attention span to stay on a subject for long. As parents and teachers I think we get used to switching things up to renew interest and attention. I think it is easy as kids hit the teen years, to not realize the value some kids will find in longer stretches of focus.

[kroe1]

Don't forget money management, especially for those moving away from home.

[Connections]

 

 

Time management and study skills are areas where I've focused a LOT of effort, since DS is ADD and has major executive function issues. (As does DH, but I think DH's advice to DS — "Just marry someone exactly like your mom" — is not a realistic solution! Not to mention the fact that it's somewhat annoying that DH is essentially subletting part of my brain to manage all those tasks he can't.)

 

Anyway, I will throw out some of the things that have worked well with DS so far, in case they're useful to anyone else:

 

He uses this 8.5x11 planner, which has one week per two-page spread. It has vertical columns for the days, with times (in 15 min increments) written down the left side, and a section for notes on the right side. I bought him a bunch of colored highlighters, and he uses a different color for each subject. (I don't schedule his time, other than suggesting that he get the most difficult subjects out of the way first, when he tends to be more focused.) For each subject, he colors in part of the column during the time he worked on it — IOW, if he does Latin on Thursday from 9:30-11:15, he colors that part of the Thursday column with green highlighter, and will sometimes add details in pen (e.g. "submitted HW"). He pre-highlights any fixed items, like online class sessions, at the beginning of the week, and blocks out things like ortho appointments, fencing class, competitions, etc. That way he can see, at the beginning of each week, exactly how much time is available for school work.

 

When I first set up this system, DS was shocked by how much "blank space" there was on his planner at the end of the week. He felt like he'd been "doing schoolwork" all day every day, and yet when he added up the actual hours that he'd been doing focused work, it was waaaaay less than he thought. The first couple of weeks, I actually made him write "farting around" in all the blank spaces.  :tongue_smilie: That was a huge wake-up call for him, and it was objective evidence, not just a "difference of opinion" between us over whether he was using his time efficiently.

 

Another really important thing he learned from documenting his time this way, is that it's much more efficient for him to focus on 3 or 4 subjects per day, and do larger blocks of time, rather than trying to fit in an hour or so of every subject every day. With so many subjects, there were too many blank spaces between each one, and it was harder for him to keep switching gears and refocusing. So now he tends to do his subjects in larger blocks, and there is far less white space on his planner.

 

As for keeping his notes and assignments organized, I set up a series of OneNote folders and page templates for each subject for him. The template I used for the note pages are Cornell Note style, so he can take notes during lectures (online or Teaching Co) and on his readings, and then go back and annotate/summarize them. No more loose papers to get lost, trashed, or ruined by spilled coffee! I also like the fact that OneNote autosaves, so he will never again lose several days' work because he forget to save.

 

Jackie

 

 

Jackie-

 

What age was your DS when you began this approach with the planner?

 

Thanks,

 

[Corraleno]

We just started doing the color-coded thing a few months ago. We've tried all kinds of different approaches before (different types of planners, iCal, checklists, etc.), and the color-coded vertical columns have worked far better than anything else. The time slots are in 15 min increments, so he tries to keep his breaks to no more than 15 mins, so there is only a small white "slice" between each colored block. When he looks over the week he can instantly see the difference between the days where the column is fully colored in and the days with large chunks of white space where little got done. I wish I had thought of this when he was much younger! My DD10 (who doesn't really need a planner) asked me to order one for her, too, because she likes how it looks. I don't think there's any age limit — you could even use it with a very young child and help color it in.

 

Jackie

 

 

[Angie in VA]

How have I missed this thread? My first born is a freshman in college. Before she left I asked her for an "After Homeschool Action Report" - borrowing from the military. Ds is still at home, and I would like pointers as to how to prepare him. I know dd lacked exposure to things like power point and Excel (she has to take a class now to learn those), but other than that I don't think she can help me do better for ds. Dd is a very organized, highly-motivated overacheiver, so I can't take much credit for how prepared for college she was.

 

This thread is very helpful.

 

And, Jackie, if by chance you read this, I sent you a PM a week or so ago, but my subject line may have been off-putting. Sorry if it was and hope you read it.

[IfIOnly]

Great, old thread! Bumping for further insight. :leaving:                                          

 

          

[elegantlion]

Well, I guess I need to go back and read it again too. Lots of good stuff. We made progress in these areas this year, some more so than others. 

[foxbridgeacademy]

This is not so much a question but a conversation starter. 

 

A mere five weeks into my college experience I already see key areas where ds needs to improve to be successful in college, most of them are in the skill area - areas we are focusing on this year. 

 

He's an average student, possibly a late bloomer, and we're keeping options open on what he wants to study in college. At this point, the schools he's interested in don't even need the common app, they have their own. 

 

So, as I'm mixing up my school & his school, I have all of the great advice from this board that I've gathered over the years running through my head. Maybe this is an evolution (at least in my world) of the breadth vs. depth conversation. 

 

The key elements I keep returning to are to know how to:

 

read well 

write well

Think critically

stay consistent with math 

 

good time management (personal & school)

good study skills

good communication skills

 

After visiting campus a few times, I might add how to properly carry a backpack and own decent walking shoes. 

 

Obviously you could further define each element. I think I'm going to print these key elements and hang in the classroom. Too often this year (as well as previous ones), I get caught up in checking off the list (especially being tired) and I forget to ensure the coverage of each subject is teaching the appropriate skill. Instead of taking time to build the foundation, like writing in his planner, I don't remind him for the hundredth time and it's buried on his bookcase. Instead of taking the time to tell him to file those five papers, we want until the inbox is full and deal with it.

 

I've read the organization books, he's read a few, but I forget that until he takes over, this is still a foundational skill I need to help with. Like reminding your kids to brush their teeth - I had to do that well longer than I thought was developmentally appropriate - yet one day I forget to remind him and he did it anyway. So why do I think that suddenly at 15 or 16 he should just magically start being academically organized on his own. I've been reminding him, but he's not there yet. Should I go back to the potty-training-patience voice - come on, honey, it's okay, you can try one more time? Probably. Because if I stop he'll never pick up the skill (at least not before chaos overtakes him). 

 

I don't know, none of this is revelation knowledge. In my exhaustion, I'm having to prioritize things a bit differently. This is what keeps coming to the top.  

Thank-you, I needed to be reminded that just because they are nearly as tall as I am (seriously though I'm short) does not mean they are ready to be as responsible as I want them to be.  DS (almost 13) left the Sour Cream out 3 times yesterday, I had to call him back every time to put it away, by the 3rd time I was..... frustrated.  I may have done the whole "how can you forget every single time, where is your brain? " type thing.  I often forget that at that age I was a mess.  I was lucky I left the house with both shoes matching.  Having a list, just to remind you, is a great idea.  I think we might do the same.  I would include DS in the process of choosing particular skills he feels he needs to work on in particular; time management and follow through.  

 

On another note, at what age do they start brushing their teeth without being told?  

[elegantlion]

 

 

On another note, at what age do they start brushing their teeth without being told?  

 

He finally accomplished this feat on his own this year.  :D