SO Views of Modesty - effects

[Violet Crown]

The relationship between unhealthy sexuality and very conservative religiosity sometimes goes the other way: men may see the latter as a cure or control for the former.

[albeto]

According to new research, states that consume the most porn tend to be more conservative and religious than states with lower levels of consumption. You can read the latest article here.

 

This site shows top ten cities of porn viewing and their self-identified religiosity.

 

Interestingly, Utah stands out (and has for years) as by far the most busy porn watching state.

 

This article offers some details between porn and language used for searches (Arabic being the most common).

 

In short, I agree with the OP, I think the data supports her correlation, and have noticed this myself anecdotally as well.

[Veritaserum]

I live in Utah, where the church I no longer attend is headquartered. As I said earlier, modesty is harped on in a ridiculous fashion (ha!) and girls/women are told that their bodies must be covered so they won't "become p0rn." The men are told to stay away from p0rn. There are support groups run by the church for "p0rn addiction." At every general conference (held twice a year for the worldwide membership) there is at least one talk about p0rn, which may also talk about (female) modesty. There is also likely to be a talk focused on modesty and/or sexual "purity."

 

I was born and raised in this church and it was only very recently that I saw how damaging and misguided these teachings about modesty and sexuality are. There is so much shame about the human body and sexuality. That may not be the desired result (teachings are generally couched in terms of "respecting your body as a temple"), but in practice the shame response is very, very common.

[Word Nerd]

According to new research, states that consume the most porn tend to be more conservative and religious than states with lower levels of consumption. You can read the latest article here.

 

But there is little difference between the states that consume the most and those that consume the least.

 

From the same article:

 

"After controlling for differences in broadband internet access between states – online porn tends to be a bandwidth hog – and adjusting for population, he found a relatively small difference between states with the most adult purchases and those with the fewest."

 

The original study also says:

"Controlling for broadband access, states show remarkable similarity in their subscription quantities, [as shown in Table 2]."

 

and

 

"On the whole, these adult entertainment subscription patterns show a remarkable consistency: all but eleven states have between two and three subscribers to this service per thousand broadband households, and all but four have between 1.5 and 3.5. With interest in online adult entertainment relatively constant across regions, there’s little sign of a major divide."

 

Income, age, education, and whether the person lives in a rural or urban area also relate to increased numbers of adult entertainment subscriptions—but again, the numbers are fairly consistent across all states.

[albeto]

But there is little difference between the states that consume the most and those that consume the least.

 

 

Right.

 

So... why is that? If the logic being applied was valid, then those populations that contained more people who self-identify as highly religious should have a remarkably lower consumer rate than those who do not. All the talk of modesty, sexual identity and orientation being a choice, sex as a special part of marriage seems to have contributed nothing in this respect.

 

In my opinion, all this emphasis on being modest has contributed nothing more than a sense of guilt for engaging in an otherwise universal behavior, not a reduction of it. Feelings loss of control and stress (and presumably guilt plays into this considerably) contribute to addictive behaviors, which is why I agree with the OP.

[Jane in NC]

Thank you Audrey! I've known far, far, far more decent, wonderful men and caring teen boys in my life than I've ever known as dirty dogs. I am sooooooooooooo sorry for women who have had a plethora of neanderthals in their lives because it's harder for them to understand that there are many good males out there.

 

It breaks my heart that more women are not married to lovely men, or meeting endearing, respectful boys. I can't imagine living with nothing but scoundrels around me.

 

Faith

 

 

Faith, I love you but don't give Neanderthals a bad name! Anthropologists tell us they lived in nuclear family groups, caring for elderly and the deformed (the latter from bone discoveries).

 

;)

 

On a serious note, it is a shame that some people are surrounded by scoundrels.

[Luanne]

I am starting to wonder if your goal is to get these conversations deleted.

 

Is that what you all are doing when you post your opinion? I've seen much worse posts than what I just posted and no one seems to have a problem with certain people speaking their mind. I guess I am just not part of your special group who is allowed to say what I think.

[TracyP]

I totally think there is a correlation. The why is something I don't understand. I think a lot of causes have already been mentioned: porn is more desirable because it is a forbidden fruit, guilt/shame cycle, and differences in definitions of "struggling". I will add unrealistic expectations to this list. I know people who got married and honestly thought that once they were married (aka - getting some) they would only have sexual feeling for their spouse. When this didn't happen they felt they were already sinning. They thought if they just tried harder or prayed harder these sinful feelings would go away. The lines are so blurry and it is so impossible to be on the "right" side that it causes some men to fall in to addiction. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud.

 

I think the modesty thing is fallout from this. There is a feeling that these men are just hanging on by their fingernails and could fall at anytime. Therefore, it is incumbent on women to do everything they can to help them. The men beat themselves up to a completely unhealthy degree, and the women are walking around scared that they may cause some poor man to sin. I find it disturbing for both parties.

 

I am glad to hear other women discussing the healthy men in their lives. I know too many women who don't believe me, but no, this isn't "every man's battle".

[LucyStoner]

 

 

I am glad to hear other women discussing the healthy men in their lives. I know too many women who don't believe me, but no, this isn't "every man's battle".

 

Too wise to just "like". I agree with your whole post, but especially this.

[Plink]

I'm okay with the personal attack. My poor choice of words was rather insulting in the first place, so I kinda' deserved it. Sorry.

My intention was not to say that modestly dressed women cause their sons to be perverts - far from it.

I also didn't mean to say that ALL ultra-concervative boys will grow up to struggle with this. (BTW, I did think of a few very healthy boys from a super conservative home, so my original observation, while true, isn't 100%)

My question was about the focus of attention, and whether excessive focus on one issue above all others can cause problems rather than solve them.

Every denomination has a focus (even if we don't want to admit it)

To over generalize and insult everyone, including myself, across the board:

LDS - thou shalt be prepared

Baptist - thou shalt tell others

Catholic - thou shalt honor saints

Ultra conservative churches of any of the above (and more) denominations - thou shalt be modest

These are all good things, but I wonder if excessively focusing on one issue as if it were the most important is problematic - especially when that focus is on one particular sin. It creates a false importance, a mystique, by giving it an exorbitant amount to time and attention. Lying, anger, selfishness, these are all bad and hurt others - but none receive major conferences like modesty. Why?

There is no check-list for how to follow God. We all strive for an honorable path. Part of that striving is looking at ourselves. Is our "good" really good? Is it becoming an idol in itself?

This could be true for anything good, not just what I noticed with modesty - Is a good education taking on more importance than it should? Are volunteer activities doing more harm than good? Where is our focus, and what is its effect?

I don't have answers, just a lot of questions.

[Violet Crown]

 

Baptist - thou shalt tell others

Catholic - thou shalt honor saints

 

No, no. I've compared enough notes with Sunday School teachers among my Baptist sisters to know that the core messages of all children's teaching for their church and mine are

 

Baptist: Obey your parents.

Catholic: Be quiet at mass.

[Plink]

No, no. I've compared enough notes with Sunday School teachers among my Baptist sisters to know that the core messages of all children's teaching for their church and mine are

 

Baptist: Obey your parents.

Catholic: Be quiet at mass.

 

 

See - I told you I'd get it wrong and insult everyone :p

[HRAAB]

I totally think there is a correlation. The why is something I don't understand. I think a lot of causes have already been mentioned: porn is more desirable because it is a forbidden fruit, guilt/shame cycle, and differences in definitions of "struggling". I will add unrealistic expectations to this list. I know people who got married and honestly thought that once they were married (aka - getting some) they would only have sexual feeling for their spouse. When this didn't happen they felt they were already sinning. They thought if they just tried harder or prayed harder these sinful feelings would go away. The lines are so blurry and it is so impossible to be on the "right" side that it causes some men to fall in to addiction. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud.

 

I think the modesty thing is fallout from this. There is a feeling that these men are just hanging on by their fingernails and could fall at anytime. Therefore, it is incumbent on women to do everything they can to help them. The men beat themselves up to a completely unhealthy degree, and the women are walking around scared that they may cause some poor man to sin. I find it disturbing for both parties.

 

I am glad to hear other women discussing the healthy men in their lives. I know too many women who don't believe me, but no, this isn't "every man's battle".

 

 

With all the conversations that are had on this topic, I believe you have hit the nail on the head. I've been surrounded with families so concerned about modesty that one of them had separate bathrooms for the boys and girls, and it's always about saving the boys from sin. Why they can't see how this is also messing up their daughters is beyond me. Also, who are these men that struggle so much. I know there are men that struggle. Guess what? There are women that struggle, too. However, it's presented as though this is the majority of men. That is the most depressing thought: that half of humanity has no control over their own sexual urges. We're all just human, struggling with different things in life. Trying to lay the responsibility on the female gender is so wrong.

 

I know it's impossible to know what goes on behind closed doors, but I feel fairly confident in saying that out of family (dh has 8 brothers) and the husbands of friends, the most of the men I know do not fall in this category of men who can't control themselves if they see a bit of female skin. My dh is offended by these descriptions as are his brothers.

 

I did know one young man who had huge problems with porn and with his treatment of women. He came from an incredibly conservative, strict, religious home where the girls wore long dresses and sleeves to the elbows. How do I know? He dated my oldest daughter for a short time. His behavior was blamed on my dd because of her inappropriate dress - jeans and tee shirts or summer skirts and tank tops. Can you imagine such slutty dress?

 

My point is even though we knew someone who fit the mold described in the OP, I know better than to apply that to all religious families raising boys. I would think we could apply that to the male gender also. While you might know some lousy men, you can't apply that to the entire male population.

[Veritaserum]

LDS - thou shalt be prepared

Baptist - thou shalt tell others

Catholic - thou shalt honor saints

Ultra conservative churches of any of the above (and more) denominations - thou shalt be modest

 

No, no. I've compared enough notes with Sunday School teachers among my Baptist sisters to know that the core messages of all children's teaching for their church and mine are

 

Baptist: Obey your parents.

Catholic: Be quiet at mass.

 

 

:lol: I'd say the LDS one should be: "Obey your leaders." or "Be perfect."

 

Picking up your pew after the service and reverence during the service are also talked about a lot, though. :tongue_smilie:

[albeto]

I'm okay with the personal attack. My poor choice of words was rather insulting in the first place, so I kinda' deserved it. Sorry.

 

I missed that.

 

My intention was not to say that modestly dressed women cause their sons to be perverts - far from it.

 

I didn't get that from your OP either. However, I would argue that teaching modesty, and those concepts that go along with it like "purity," do distort an otherwise natural human behavior to an unnatural and artificially stressful degree.

 

These are all good things, but I wonder if excessively focusing on one issue as if it were the most important is problematic - especially when that focus is on one particular sin. It creates a false importance, a mystique, by giving it an exorbitant amount to time and attention. Lying, anger, selfishness, these are all bad and hurt others - but none receive major conferences like modesty. Why?

 

This is a fascinating question, in my opinion. I think it encompasses much about our human nature, our desire to define and articulate our sense of self, our identities individually and collectively. I think sexual behavior is no different than other behaviors, like eating or being active, but it is fashionable to elevate it above other behaviors. That's not to say everyone does it, or those who do ignore everything else. However, when we look to other societies, and even our own society throughout history, this fashion comes and goes. It's a trend, but a very long one. So why is this trend fashionable in the first place?

 

I think there are lots of reasons that contribute to it. One is that we're simply more aware what goes on outside our own community. We know the statistics of teen pregnancy, for example, and the rise in refusal to hide one's sexual identity and orientation. These things are constantly making the news because they're constantly triggering our interest. Because they're constantly in the news, they're constantly triggering our interest. ;)

 

Also, in the same way it's no longer as fashionable to be racist (it exists, systematically even, but not like it did two generations ago), homophobia is far more acceptable socially. I think for that reason, sexual behavior is more apt to be on the tips of people's minds. People who are trained to fear things like sexual deviance are likely to fear homosexuality because it's understood to be a deviant choice, one that will start the slippery slope to things like legal bestiality, or one woman having many legal husbands simultaneously.

 

I think it just so happens to be a behavior we are all familiar with and can use to identify "us" from "them." Religious groups identify themselves as being "set apart" from society in general, but when you have a society that largely identifies itself as being a part of the same religious group, there are naturally going to be differences internally and sexual behavior is one identifiable difference. Tribal thinking ("us" v "them") is as natural as kissing. We can't help it, but we can redefine it to include all humanity, even those who make different sexual choices than we would be comfortable with.

 

Finally, I think in no small part this is about access to and distribution of power. People who have power desire to maintain it. Nothing maintains a particular status quo like training everyone to take pride in their part, fear leaving their stations, and justifying it with divine importance.

[LucyStoner]

What I always wonder about the families who segregate their daughters from their sons (bathroom, swimming whatever) to keep their son from sinning/lust is this- don't they have MUCH bigger issues than porn or lust if they think their sons will be aroused by their own siblings? Siblings raised together are shown to have an aversion to even thinking about their siblings and sex at the same time. It seems uber creepy to imply to girls that their brothers are liable to lust after them and incredibly insulting and offensive to boys to suggest they need to be protected from lusting after their sisters. I mean seriously?

[Mrs Mungo]

Is that what you all are doing when you post your opinion?

 

Do you honestly not see the illogical jumping to conclusions of your post? Why would you even assume that the OP dresses inappropriately at all?

 

I've seen much worse posts than what I just posted and no one seems to have a problem with certain people speaking their mind. I guess I am just not part of your special group who is allowed to say what I think.

 

 

You have never seen me take issue with what anyone else has ever said except for you?

[HRAAB]

What I always wonder about the families who segregate their daughters from their sons (bathroom, swimming whatever) to keep their son from sinning/lust is this- don't they have MUCH bigger issues than porn or lust if they think their sons will be aroused by their own siblings? Siblings raised together are shown to have an aversion to even thinking about their siblings and sex at the same time. It seems uber creepy to imply to girls that their brothers are liable to lust after them and incredibly insulting and offensive to boys to suggest they need to be protected from lusting after their sisters. I mean seriously?

 

 

I hadn't even considered that point. I was just shocked when I found out they had separate bathrooms: the explanation being that they didn't want the boys seeing girls' underwear or feminine products. I also thought maybe the girls would be embarrassed if the boys saw a box of tampons or whatever because everything is so hush hush in the family. You are right. They have much bigger issues.

 

Another funny: a homeschooling mom was complaining about their neighbor hanging their underwear on the clothesline where her boys could see it from their yard. And then there was the boy that was so embarrassed to see his mother's shoulders for the first time that he blushed.

 

Yes, I think that type of focus on modesty can be very damaging - to both sexes.

[FaithManor]

 

Finally, I think in no small part this is about access to and distribution of power. People who have power desire to maintain it. Nothing maintains a particular status quo like training everyone to take pride in their part, fear leaving their stations, and justifying it with divine importance.

 

This is, I think, the crux of the matter.

 

Faith

[Murphy101]

I hadn't even considered that point. I was just shocked when I found out they had separate bathrooms: the explanation being that they didn't want the boys seeing girls' underwear or feminine products. I also thought maybe the girls would be embarrassed if the boys saw a box of tampons or whatever because everything is so hush hush in the family. You are right. They have much bigger issues.

 

Another funny: a homeschooling mom was complaining about their neighbor hanging their underwear on the clothesline where her boys could see it from their yard. And then there was the boy that was so embarrassed to see his mother's shoulders for the first time that he blushed.

 

Yes, I think that type of focus on modesty can be very damaging - to both sexes.

 

Oh Geez. That's not even modesty. It's something else entirely. Impractical and silly for starters.

 

Good heavens. I have a couple sons that blush very easily and a woman uncovered breastfeeding, pads, sorting and folding girls/women's clothing, me putting on a nice date night dress...

 

I think extremes usually cause problems. It's easy to pick on religious modesty extremes, but the nothing is ever off limits extremes aren't any better and I'd wager have just as many "struggles" though they may phrase it differently or simply be okay with their compulsions bc they think their aren't negatives to it (yet anyways).

[HRAAB]

 

I think extremes usually cause problems. It's easy to pick on religious modesty extremes, but the nothing is ever off limits extremes aren't any better and I'd wager have just as many "struggles" though they may phrase it differently or simply be okay with their compulsions bc they think their aren't negatives to it (yet anyways).

 

I more a middle of the road type person. Extremes in any direction, imo, aren't healthy.

[MamaSheep]

According to new research, states that consume the most porn tend to be more conservative and religious than states with lower levels of consumption. You can read the latest article here.

...

Interestingly, Utah stands out (and has for years) as by far the most busy porn watching state.

 

 

 

 

 

That was an interesting article. This bit caught my eye:

 

"The biggest consumer, Utah, averaged 5.47 adult content subscriptions per 1000 home broadband users; Montana bought the least with 1.92 per 1000. "The differences here are not so stark," Edelman says."

 

I grew up in Montana and now live in Utah and find this fascinating. But having experienced both cultures first hand for long periods I have to say that I don't think this data can be accurately interpreted to mean that Montanans have less of an interest in pornography than Utahns, or even that they actually consume less porn. I think the difference is more likely to be a matter of how and where those people in each population who consume porn actually get their porn. Especially since the study only deals with online pornography subscriptions, not total consumption of pornography and related forms of adult entertainment.

 

Growing up in Montana, most of the kids I knew had easy access to pornography if they wanted it. They would go over to each other's houses and watch their parents' video collections. They knew whose parents had a magazine stash and where, and a lot of the parents didn't care if their kids got into it as long as they put everything back. I had a number of male friends whose sex-education from their parents consisted largely of being handed a stack of magazines by their fathers, and being told not to put it in anything they wouldn't marry. They laughed about this on the school bus. Playboy and a couple of other soft porn mags were available on the front rack at the local drug store, right next to the spinny rack with the comic books. There wasn't a strip club or adult movie theater in our town, it was too small to support them, but everyone knew where to go for that sort of entertainment, and on a number of occasions I heard men I knew discussing in rather loud, lewd terms who their favorite entertainers were, both in print and in person. In Montana you kind of had to make an effort in order to NOT have regular exposure to various levels of pornography. I was that weird Mormon girl who quietly got up and left when they started passing it around and oohing and aahing and giggling, and who preferred PG rated movies. Nowadays my only FB friends who occasionally post photos of women that I consider somewhat exploitative are the ones from my Montana youth. I cannot imagine they've gotten more prudish there over the years. But I can imagine that they don't feel a need to go online to get their porn since there are so many other options for easy access.

 

In Utah, on the other hand, I couldn't even tell you where the nearest strip club or adult movie theater is, and I've lived here for a decade now. I don't think I've ever seen a soft core magazine casually displayed on a magazine rack (though I'm sure they must be out there, I just don't go to the "right" stores). The women I know don't tend to complain about their husbands' stashes (which is something I heard more than once in Montana), and I've never heard men's casual conversation include their personal porn rating systems. If I wanted to find pornography in Utah it would take a little effort--probably it's not that hard to come by, but it's not as much a part of the culture as it was in Montana and it's not as thoroughly "present" if that makes sense. It's also not something that is culturally acceptable to do or to talk about like it was in Montana, so it makes sense to me that the people in Utah who wanted to access pornography and participate in a more "adult-oriented" culture than is available around them would be more likely to do so online because it's easier and more private than other locally available retail options. And another consideration in interpreting the data is the fact that the demographic that consumes the most pornography in general tends to be teens and young adults, and I would guess that Utah has a higher population density in this demographic than Montana. And I would guess that there are similar societal/cultural factors in other states as well that would affect the outcome of this particular study.

 

It also occurs to me to wonder what the difference in internet access between the two populations in general might be, as well as the general computer literacy rate, and whether that affects the nubmers. But that's probably yet another ball of wax.

 

 

Anyway, it is an interesting study, and should certainly be considered as part of the picture in answering the original poster's question, but it definitely doesn't tell the whole story.

[Murphy101]

I more a middle of the road type person. Extremes in any direction, imo, aren't healthy.

 

 

I am too. I just wanted to point out that I don't think the problem is necessarily religious in focus, but the ficus should be the "extreme" aspect.

[MamaSheep]

 

See - I told you I'd get it wrong and insult everyone :p

 

 

 

Lol!

 

And I'd say that the LDS one would be "families are forever". But I don't think "be prepared" is particularly insulting, just not really the focus. :)

[*lifeoftheparty*]

 

 

Wow. You seem awfully judgmental for someone who has been thrice divorced.

 

Right?!?!?!?!

 

Remove the plank lady, remove the plank....

[Jennifer3141]

Right?!?!?!?!

 

Remove the plank lady, remove the plank....

 

I just spit on my computer screen. Thanks for the awesomeness!

[Joanne]

We have a friend who is a Prn Addiction counselor. 99% of the time the men who he sees (the biggest office in our metro area) that have legitimate issues or addiction had a childhood filled with shame, self esteem issues, and verbal abuses. The issue is not dress.

 

While I agree that the issue is not dress, I disagree with your friend.

 

Porn addiction, like other process addicitons and substance abuse disorders is multicaused. 99% is inaccurate for the population. Porn addiction (like substance addiction) is correlated more closely with early exposure. Early exposure changes the brain, and in a predisposed brain, addiction develops. More strongly depending on the age and length of exposure.

 

I also am careful about using the term "porn addiciton" or "porn problem" because I don't equate viewing or interest with problem. (I am not in support of the porn industry, but I don't agree viewing, even regularly, equals problem).

[MamaSheep]

I live in Utah, where the church I no longer attend is headquartered. As I said earlier, modesty is harped on in a ridiculous fashion (ha!) and girls/women are told that their bodies must be covered so they won't "become p0rn." The men are told to stay away from p0rn. There are support groups run by the church for "p0rn addiction." At every general conference (held twice a year for the worldwide membership) there is at least one talk about p0rn, which may also talk about (female) modesty. There is also likely to be a talk focused on modesty and/or sexual "purity."

 

I was born and raised in this church and it was only very recently that I saw how damaging and misguided these teachings about modesty and sexuality are. There is so much shame about the human body and sexuality. That may not be the desired result (teachings are generally couched in terms of "respecting your body as a temple"), but in practice the shame response is very, very common.

 

 

That's certainly one way of looking at it. Another way is that modesty is taught in a balanced manner along with a wide variety of other topics, but if a person is hyper-focused on a particular topic, sometimes that's all they hear, and they miss the bigger picture, including the context in which that topic is being discussed (for example, by overemphasizing one out-of-context tangential remark made at the end of one talk about pornography).

 

I was born and raised in the same church, and have found the teachings about modesty and sexuality to be healthy and validating, and to promote self-esteem, respect for members of the opposite sex, and a joyful approach to sexuality and procreation. I would say that teachings are often presented in terms of "respecting your body as a temple" (I suppose you're referring to my post on the other thread there) because the church does, in fact, view the human body in positive, healthy terms and sexuality as something beautiful and personal, but that unfortunately some individuals in the church do superimpose a veneer of shame, and it's sad that this is the case because those who do so entirely miss out on some of the most beautiful philosophical, intellectual, social, and relational teachings the church has to offer. But we are all in different stages of learning in different areas of knowledge, and we each have our own perspectives on various topics. As has been pointed out frequently, the church is more of a hospital for broken people than it is a retirement home for perfect ones.

 

I appreciate that your views on, and experiences with the church are different from mine. I hope you will also respect that many people's views and experiences are different from yours.

[mommymilkies]

I more a middle of the road type person. Extremes in any direction, imo, aren't healthy.

 

I agree. I don't think kids need to see sex early, or have Playboys sitting around (or Gods forbid Penthouse. I about died as a kid when I found one of those. I have two words for you: golden showers). But I don't see the problem with tasteful nudity. I don't censor nude art (art, not porn disguised as art, I'm talking classics), my kids have all watched me birth and breastfeed children, etc. I don't see immodest dressing as anything like bombarding kids with sex. It's just the body. It has many uses. Sex is just one of them. Of course, from just an anecdotal standpoint, I have seen extremes of modesty/censorship and total free for all as both being somewhat detrimental in some people I have known. But that's just anecdotal. Like everything in life, moderation is probably best for most people.

[Veritaserum]

That's certainly one way of looking at it. Another way is that modesty is taught in a balanced manner along with a wide variety of other topics, but if a person is hyper-focused on a particular topic, sometimes that's all they hear, and they miss the bigger picture, including the context in which that topic is being discussed (for example, by overemphasizing one out-of-context tangential remark made at the end of one talk about pornography).

 

I was born and raised in the same church, and have found the teachings about modesty and sexuality to be healthy and validating, and to promote self-esteem, respect for members of the opposite sex, and a joyful approach to sexuality and procreation. I would say that teachings are often presented in terms of "respecting your body as a temple" (I suppose you're referring to my post on the other thread there) because the church does, in fact, view the human body in positive, healthy terms and sexuality as something beautiful and personal, but that unfortunately some individuals in the church do superimpose a veneer of shame, and it's sad that this is the case because those who do so entirely miss out on some of the most beautiful philosophical, intellectual, social, and relational teachings the church has to offer. But we are all in different stages of learning in different areas of knowledge, and we each have our own perspectives on various topics. As has been pointed out frequently, the church is more of a hospital for broken people than it is a retirement home for perfect ones.

 

I appreciate that your views on, and experiences with the church are different from mine. I hope you will also respect that many people's views and experiences are different from yours.

 

Obviously other people's views and experiences differ from mine. :) That doesn't make mine untrue or even exaggerated or "taken out of context." ;) My awareness of the modesty (and porn) hype is due to the increased number of lessons on the topic across all auxiliaries and from the pulpit (both local and general). It's not because I was hyper-focused on the topic; it's because the church was (is). I'm sorry if it upsets anyone for that to be pointed out.

 

I understand your desire to defend the church and its teachings as nothing but good and wonderful. Despite my pain and struggles caused by the church and its teachings, I do see aspects to be praised. The negative aspects are simply just as obvious to me now, even though I know many don't see them. Goodness knows I avoided any hint of negativity about the church for decades just as the church taught me to. :p Then one day I just couldn't avoid it anymore. The weight of the truth crashed down on me and I had to pick up the pieces and decide how to proceed. It has been quite a journey. :)

 

It's nice that your experience of the church's teachings has been such a positive one. Through no fault of their own, many people are not as fortunate. :)