A friend just called me because her son is essentially failing 9th grade

[LisaKinVA]

...except for the two classes he enjoys (CAD Drawing & Jr. ROTC).

 

A good chunk of the problem is a lack of participation/completing/turning in daily work. The child passed required exit exams for the courses, but has a D or F as a grade.

 

This is what I suggested (as a place to begin):

 

Have an evaluation done (I suggested that she call Huntington's and find out what tests they administer, I told her I could proctor a standard ITBS/CoGAT test...but they might have a better battery they could administer). I do know his writing skills are below average.

 

She and her husband need to get on the same page regarding the options they wish to take (homeschool & repeat, summer school & go on, etc.). I've invited them over so that they could look at various materials that I have on hand, and so that we could look at various on-line type of school options.

 

They feel his basic issue is immaturity (lack of understanding that school matters...and that one doesn't just move onto college). They have also indicated that they understand that whether they bring him home or send him back that they will have [ET finish] to be heavily involved in his schooling (they are very involved parents already, mom & dad were checking work/assignments, but according to teacher's notes things weren't being turned in, or were essentially done at a very base level...and the communication system for the parents to keep up with assignments/grades apparently is fraught with problems)

 

I'd like to offer them the best advice and options I can -- so I'm asking you all :D

 

If your friend were going to bring a child home from a public high school...what would YOU suggest (and also figure he will need remediation in grammar and composition)

[Murphy101]

Frankly it doesn't matter to him. English lit just doesn't relate to CAD and ROTC or getting a job. It sounds like he really enjoys cad and ROTC. Can he take a trade school route? Here a kid can enroll in a tech school for 1/2 days instead of high school. It's a fabulous option to help a kid focus on their interests and goals. Some still go onto college or develop skills to get a higher ranking if they enter the military.

 

[LisaKinVA]

Frankly it doesn't matter to him. English lit just doesn't relate to CAD and ROTC or getting a job. It sounds like he really enjoys cad and ROTC. Can he take a trade school route? Here a kid can enroll in a tech school for 1/2 days instead of high school. It's a fabulous option to help a kid focus on their interests and goals. Some still go onto college or develop skills to get a higher ranking if they enter the military.

 

 

There is no difference in the core requirements for a standard diploma or a technical diploma...the difference is with regard to electives (technical diploma has additional technical course requirements) re are some minor differences if you head for an advanced technical diploma or the Governor's school STAT (a STEM program for GT kids). Trade schools would be only for high school graduates/GED at the local community college. So, he *must* have 4 years of English, 3 years of history, 3 years of lab science, 2 years of health/PE, 1 year of fine art or foreign language...there is no getting around that.

[Lara in Colo]

I think this if I could, I would try to formulate a curriculum based on his interests.

 

For example--- he still needs to be able to write (grammar and writing skills) can you make all his assignments revolve around ROTC things instead of English Lit? He might be more inclined to write a paper about a subject he likes and it doesn't really matter what the subject is....

 

Math still has to be done, but like any other HS family, trial error find the one that works.

 

Other than that I would simply have a "Come to Jesus" meeting about doing what is expected.

[Parrothead]

Things that may spark an interest such as military stuff he may be able to relate to:

 

The Trojan war

Peloponnesian War

The battle of the ten kings

The Punic wars

The Maccabean Revolt

Caesar's invasion of Britain

The Jewish Rome war

The Muslim conquest of Persia

The Saxon wars

The crusades

The Mongol conquests

The hundred years war

The 40 year war

The war of the roses

The war league of Cambrai

The Ethiopian-Adal War

The Inca Civil war

The Ottoman Wars

The Nine Years War of Ireland

The thirty years war

The first English civil war

The great Turkish war

Tuscarora War

The French and Indian war

 

And you know the rest.

 

That will fill his heart full of military and cover history, writing, English, literature, and religion over the next 3-4 years. (Have they considered holding him back to develop the needed maturity?)

 

Add in math and science and he is covered. He can use the CAD stuff for art as electives. Maybe he can set a goal of one of the military academies for college.

[LisaKinVA]

That will fill his heart full of military and cover history, writing, English, literature, and religion over the next 3-4 years. (Have they considered holding him back to develop the needed maturity?)

 

Add in math and science and he is covered. He can use the CAD stuff for art as electives. Maybe he can set a goal of one of the military academies for college.

 

 

I think that is part of the reason they are thinking about pulling him out...to essentially re-boot his high school career. I have explained to her though, that they can't pull him out of PS for one year and put him back in...if they do that his high school record will still have this past year on it. In reality, their options are to summer school and hope for the best in the same school, pull him out and do high school at home, or pull him out, homeschool for a year (trying to re-mediate as best as possible...in English mainly) and then enroll him in a local private school for grades 10-12).

 

He actually has told me he wants to go to West Point...so that is on his radar.

 

He is a bright kid...just a bit unmotivated.

 

@Lara...I have a feeling there will be a series of come to Jesus meetings (they've been having them since the first 9 weeks scores...but I think they know that it's just not working with him in school. (He goes to school to be with his friends...and that's pretty much it.) He reminds me a lot of my younger brother at that age....

[Caroline]

His passing the state exit tests tells me his grades are due to behaviors (not turning in work, not doing homework, etc.) rather than knowing the information. which is essentially what you said. I bet his unit test scores would show that he knows the information. Therefore, if I were going to homeschool him, I would start with the next level in those courses.

 

When I see students passing only electives, I generally think they have been tracked too low. If he is passing the state exams without doing the homework, that says to me he didn't need to do the homework. He already knew the information. ROTC and CAD were likely new things to him, so he had to do the work to learn.

 

What this kid needs (in my non-expert, never having met him, off the cuff opinion) is a huge challenge. His freshman grades may mean he has kissed West Point goodbye, unless he shows some giant gains. He doesn't need a restart. He needs to move forward with a challenge. I am guessing he probably doesn't really need any remediation. He needs to be pushed forward.

 

 

[LisaKinVA]

His passing the state exit tests tells me his grades are due to behaviors (not turning in work, not doing homework, etc.) rather than knowing the information. which is essentially what you said. I bet his unit test scores would show that he knows the information. Therefore, if I were going to homeschool him, I would start with the next level in those courses.

 

When I see students passing only electives, I generally think they have been tracked too low. If he is passing the state exams without doing the homework, that says to me he didn't need to do the homework. He already knew the information. ROTC and CAD were likely new things to him, so he had to do the work to learn.

 

What this kid needs (in my non-expert, never having met him, off the cuff opinion) is a huge challenge. His freshman grades may mean he has kissed West Point goodbye, unless he shows some giant gains. He doesn't need a restart. He needs to move forward with a challenge. I am guessing he probably doesn't really need any remediation. He needs to be pushed forward.

 

 

In general, I agree with you... however I worked with him last summer. There *are* issues...especially with grammar & composition. HUGE issues... the boy cannot write. Subject/verb agreement is correct maybe 50% of the time, spelling and vocabulary usage is extremely poor. Sentence structure is about the same level as my rising 4th grader...I told his mother last summer that his writing was not where it should be (and she agreed), but I had enough on my plate with Algebra :p (he can't do word problems...and really had zero experience with the last 25% of what was covered in TT1... we spend a lot of time working on quadratics, going back to factoring and radicals, going through the steps how to break down word problems...my kid worked along side him) I wasn't too worried about him in Geometry, but I did encourage his parents to continue to have him do some review of math using Aleks throughout the school year, because the regular review of those concepts was needed. (I had him take a placement test for TT and AoPS before we started -- The TT came back just below what they deemed necessary to move forward, AoPS put him in Intro to Algebra...and he had "completed" Honors Algebra 1 in 8th grade, with a D, but passed the SOL test which enabled him to move into Geometry).

 

He failed Honors English, failed French (can't conjugate in English, either...), D in Geometry (which we know is mostly due to not turning in assignments), (grades for science and history haven't been posted yet)...I'm sure there is some element of boredom, and I know that he likes being the class clown. I also know he doesn't really like to be challenged. He even told his mother that he wants to just take "regular" English, because he thinks he might do better. His mom and dad are seriously :banghead:

 

If he were my child, I'd probably have him test through a Geometry course (Jacob's...), and plan to do Algebra 2 next year. I wouldn't hold him back in science, or history...but I'd probably have him do MCT Grammar Voyage, with WWS1 and Killgallon exercises...maybe even CE1. Then for the school year, continue CE1, go into CE2, WWS1, Killgallon and go through Abeka III Grammar (not the composition), and Abeka Lit (because it's pretty painless)...and have him tackle BJU Bio and history, possibly with the DVDs. His dad feels that he should take ASL as the language requirement (I've reassured his mother that would not be a horrible idea, that VA Tech would accept those credits). Then, he could do Civil Air Patrol, Scouts, and take basketball at the Y...and/or swim...tennis or something! I'd either follow WWS1 with WWS2, or go into IEW. I think he'd probably benefit from that approach...

 

They have to make a decision by Monday night, though...because they have to register him for summer school on the 18th.

[elegantlion]

Can you search for some posts from Margaret or Sebastian about the competitive nature of the military academies? It might be good to see some blunt feedback on the challenge of admittance. If he were my child, I'd work to set some mid-range goals besides West Point.

[Murphy101]

There's not any tech dual enrollment options? That's so sad to me.

Usually there is something and the 1/2 day at tech usually gives them some credit for math and sciences or whatever too depending on what the course is.

 

I don't think it's challenging to force a kid who doesn't enjoy English to make it even more of a chore to get through by insisting it be honors.

 

Does he have an unrealistic pov on what he wants? Does he know what West Point requires? Does he have other ideas he'd like to pursue?

[FaithManor]

Agreeing with Caroline, the Come to Jesus Meeting is going to have to be a biggie. West Point leaves no room for error in the high school years. He's already pretty much tossed that dream to the curb!

 

First of all, do they have the money for the private school IF homeschooling doesn't work out for them? If not, that's a very serious issue. I am not sure about your state, but in Michigan, for the most part, if you start homeschooling for high school you'll have to finish that way. The PS's are loathe to accept homeschool credit, at least in the Mid-Michigan area they are.

 

Is there a STEM based charter school in the area? Is he a young freshman?Did he start the year as only a recent 14 year old or even 13? If so, he could be put into a new school and do his freshman year again possibly without his record following him. Dh's parents did this for him. He was a VERY young freshman and they were moving across the country. The school requirements for freshman were very different from one school to the next, the courses he had completed were not going to readily lead into the ones he would have the next year, etc. So, they opted for him to do his freshman year again, but be IQ tested. The new school put him in advanced freshman courses which was just what he needed, but he didn't have any gaps from having not gotten pre-reqs out of order. It was much smoother than if they had done a simple transfer. He was also so small for his age that he felt he fit in better as well. Possibly this could be an option for this family.

 

He could be very, very bored and doesn't see the need to hoop jump. That could be one reason for not turning in or doing the work. However, he could just be stubborn - if I'm not interested, I'm not doing it. My dad was like that in some areas of high school. If that is the case, they have a character issue, not a schoolwork issue. Maybe homeschooling will help, but to be honest, many kids I've met like this are pretty set in that pattern by 13 or 14 and not much the parents or school does brings change to bear until the student gets gobsmacked with real life, and they find out that no matter what path in life you choose, you will do work that is not particularly interesting at the moment and is oft times "grunt work" and "hoop jumping". That is just the way it is.

 

So, I'm not certain that pulling him out will work unless they can pull do it and put him into a program that is maybe more tailor made to his interests and ties all of the academic instruction to a path that is interesting to him - ie. some sort of STEM type charter academy. Can they manage this through homeschooling? Can they can manage the private school if homeschooling for the entirety of high school is not for them AND will that private school accept homeschool credits? - some do not.

 

The main concern I have about homeschooling is if it is parent taught pretty exclusively, is that without any background in it prior to high school, it's a pretty heady task to take on. Most of us that are doing it were educating our children before 9th grade and had a chance to be researching ahead of time, making plans, growing through the process, etc. There's a learning curve there and high school is when it really hits home if you aren't prepared. They might do well with online resources and some outsourcing, but unless they address the issue of "just because your homeschooled, that doesn't mean the same old same old habits of last year get to keep recurring", history could very easily repeat itself.

 

This is beyond a simple discipline problem. They can punish, restrict, scold, etc. But, he's got three or four more years and the rubber ultimately meets the road though some rubber "West Point", etc. has already likely been burned. If they homeschool, this boy is going to have to be on board and motivated. Otherwise, they might be just as well served, though it is heartbreaking, to keep him in school and allow time and natural consequences to do their thing. He won't like it when all of his friends are graduating and moving on to college and trades, while he's stuck in a rut without a diploma, but it's not the end of the world either. He could then decide he'd like to move on too, study, take his GED, go to CC, and then move to a trade school or a uni. Maybe he'd find a job in that time and through the natural course of employer/employee relationships find a mentor whom he is willing to listen to, but treating him like a youngling and just getting all over his case, taking away privileges, pulling him out of school he likes, restricting access to friends, etc. all of the things that parents tend to do when their kid fails classes, does not usually motivate a kid that later age. I wish it were not true. But, that has been my experience. Usually, the habits to be a good student, be responsible for work, etc. needs to be in place before high school.

 

Now, that said, I do know of one carrot that may work. We have friends that told their "I'm not completing or turning in any work that isn't interesting to me" son, that he would not be taking driver's training at 15 nor getting a license before 18 unless he maintained a B average and never had below a C- in any high school course. They told him that if he couldn't be responsible to complete assignments and turn them in on time, then he had not demonstrated the maturity necessary to be put in charge of a ton of speeding metal that can kill people! All of his friends were being promised driver's training and cars on time. He decided he wanted to drive bad enough that he brought his grades up. Once licensed, continuing to have access to the keys of the family car for extracurricular events was dependent on school grades. Since they received insurance discount for honor roll students, his last two years of high school he had to have a B- or better in every single subject or no driving. For him, it worked.

 

Faith

[Teachin'Mine]

Can they get him evaluated for learning disabilities now while he's still a ps student? That would save them quite a bit of money and give them some answers so they can look at options. Dyslexia maybe? The writing problem would fit that, but obviously I have no idea. If they choose to homeschool, I'd suggest working on all the skills he needs to be ready for high school. Class clowns are usually either bored because the work is below their abilities, or a way for a struggling student to get through the school day. It makes no sense that he was placed into honors English to begin with. What were his grades in elementary? Did he have any head injury in recent years? He was obviously placed on the college prep track, but his work and abilities don't seem to match that placement. I hope they get answers soon and can allow him to do whatever level work he needs to get ready for high school level work. If he homeschools, there should be no reason why this past year's grades even need to be a part of his transcript. But from what you're saying, he doesn't even sound ready to begin 9th again yet, not if they want him to succeed.

[Erin]

...except for the two classes he enjoys (CAD Drawing & Jr. ROTC).

 

A good chunk of the problem is a lack of participation/completing/turning in daily work. The child passed required exit exams for the courses, but has a D or F as a grade.

 

This is what I suggested (as a place to begin):

 

Have an evaluation done (I suggested that she call Huntington's and find out what tests they administer, I told her I could proctor a standard ITBS/CoGAT test...but they might have a better battery they could administer). I do know his writing skills are below average.

 

All of this sounds exactly like my son. (Well, except the ROTC thing. We don't have that here...) "Doing" classes and he's fine, but anything requiring sustained focus without motion and he has trouble. He loses homework, forgets to turn in things that are complete, forgets to complete things (even though they're still guided through their homework planners) and tends to space out during class.

My son has ADHD-primarily inattentive.

If I hadn't grown up with a brother with the same problem, I could easily have chalked it up to laziness, immaturity, etc. Instead, when he would tell me he didn't understand how everyone else got stuff done, I believed him. I've seen him cry in frustration.

 

Is that a possibility for this student?

 

This is actually the primary reason DS came back to homeschool this year. He's a fairly bright kid, but was going crazy in school, trying to keep up.

[LisaKinVA]

Can you search for some posts from Margaret or Sebastian about the competitive nature of the military academies? It might be good to see some blunt feedback on the challenge of admittance. If he were my child, I'd work to set some mid-range goals besides West Point.

 

I will do that...he and I went to the West Point admissions site and discussed this goal. He's aware, in the sense that he's been told. I do not think he really "gets" it, though.

 

=

First of all, do they have the money for the private school IF homeschooling doesn't work out for them?

 

Is there a STEM based charter school in the area? Is he a young freshman?Did he start the year as only a recent 14 year old or even 13?

 

He could be very, very bored and doesn't see the need to hoop jump. That could be one reason for not turning in or doing the work. However, he could just be stubborn - if I'm not interested, I'm not doing it. My dad was like that in some areas of high school. If that is the case, they have a character issue, not a schoolwork issue. Maybe homeschooling will help, but to be honest, many kids I've met like this are pretty set in that pattern by 13 or 14 and not much the parents or school does brings change to bear until the student gets gobsmacked with real life, and they find out that no matter what path in life you choose, you will do work that is not particularly interesting at the moment and is oft times "grunt work" and "hoop jumping". That is just the way it is.

 

 

Sorry for all of the 'snipping" They have the money for an inexpensive private school if homeschooling doesn't work out. The closest STEM based charter school is 60 minutes away without traffic (leaving at 5am). You get in by (a) test scores (B) recommendations and © Lottery of those who meet a & b...so that's really not a possibility.

 

@ American Maid... The tech stuff (DE) through the public schools is only available to kids with at least a 3.0 GPA AND who are in the GT program for high school. There really aren't options to tailor education toward that end *unless* you are going to do the other things, too.

 

Back to Faith -- He's not a young (by age) for grade. He turned 15 4 months ago.

 

@ Teachin'Mine -- they will probably have an evaluation at a local testing/tutoring center. FWIW, according to his mother, these problems really didn't start until end of 7th, and into 8th...

 

Back to Faith -- I get what you're saying about kids and bad habits, with my younger brother, the writing was on the wall in 3rd...he was BORED, noticeably worse by 5th & 6th, mom brought him home in 7th and had to sit next to him all. day. long. to get through the required work...just the basics. -- I think his parents (and us, since we've invested in him, too), are all just trying to figure out HOW to get through to him...or even if we CAN. He's just seems so non-pulsed by all of this.

 

@ American Maid -- I don't think Honors English is where he belongs...I'm fairly certain that if he applied himself, he could do it. I do think he has unrealistic expectations as to what is required to "get" to where he claims he wants to go -- his parents think so as well. He seems to be under the impression that one graduates from high school and goes into college the way one is promoted from 5th grade to 6th grade...it just happens...automatically. Which tells me that he either never really faced much in the way of substantive consequences for this type of behavior before, or he doesn't think what we're all telling him (about college) will really happen. He also talks about wanting to play professional football...(not gonna happen...trust me).

 

Back to Faith -- I do have concerns about them jumping into homeschooling full-tilt at this point. They could probably handle a boxed curriculum (Abeka, BJU, Christian Liberty, American School) BUT, I don't think they'd like most of those options, because they would be much more difficult to tailor...there are some services we have access to that could help, too. I honestly don't know how he feels about driving or other carrots he might find that would work... However, whatever route they choose, it's going to be a bumpy 3-4 years.

[LisaKinVA]

All of this sounds exactly like my son. (Well, except the ROTC thing. We don't have that here...) "Doing" classes and he's fine, but anything requiring sustained focus without motion and he has trouble. He loses homework, forgets to turn in things that are complete, forgets to complete things (even though they're still guided through their homework planners) and tends to space out during class.

My son has ADHD-primarily inattentive.

If I hadn't grown up with a brother with the same problem, I could easily have chalked it up to laziness, immaturity, etc. Instead, when he would tell me he didn't understand how everyone else got stuff done, I believed him. I've seen him cry in frustration.

 

Is that a possibility for this student?

 

He can sit and work on Algebra for 2 hours...take a break and go back for another 2 hours...take a break...and go back...I've seen ADD before, he doesn't have it. Or, if he does, he's extremely good at masking it. We'd to 20 problems together...he and my son would have competitions to see who could arrive at the right answer the fastest...no issues. He was with me 4 days a week for June and July, through the first week of August (nearly 8 weeks, total). Also, he didn't take inordinately long to do the problems. He could copy them and work them without being distracted or going off on tangents....word problems are the only things he really struggled with (in math).

[Julie in MN]

Oh, my, sounds so familiar to me. My dd failed 9th grade except band and science lab, because both required no assignments turned in. We tried:

- daily counselor guidance for organizing and turning in assignments

- learning disability testing

- summer school

 

After still failing those, we brought her home to school. She has some Aspberger's traits -- very smart, excellent memory, but narrow focus and slow absorption due to having to learn every detail individually.

 

Anyways, I brought her home to school and I'm glad. I strongly feel that kids who are failing in school get pigeon-holed into a group that is not healthy. I admit she hasn't yet graduated at age 25 (but I'd still graduate her if she met my bare minimum), but she is able to support herself and her son.

 

I agree that homeschool can provide a lot of interesting opportunities to motivate the student. My dd was in a couple of plays, a flute choir, etc. I was able to go through the entire Bible with her and get her through an understanding of history. Math Relief for algebra 1 & 2 was wonderful for her. Writing was like pulling teeth and part of the reason she didn't meet my minimum, but we did make a year or two of progress (worked a lot on getting her to write an idea of her own rather than painstakingly regurgitate a small excerpt from encyclopedia she just read). Even if it wasn't a full 4 years of high school, every bit of progress was something she wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

 

Hugs to her. I know their pain.

Julie

[Lanny]

@LisaK in VA He is an underachiever. Have they considered the fact that he may be suffering from severe depression? And, what happened in 7th and 8th grades that began this cycle?

 

When I read about Jr. ROTC and that he is possibly interested in the military, I thought to myself, I doubt they would allow him to enlist... But then, when I read about his interest in West Point, there is NO WAY...

 

Does the PS have a Psychologist or Social Worker or someone he might be willing to talk with, about why he is not applying himself? A Counselor? Someone he likes and respects there?

 

You mentioned American School and if they bring him home, I think that might be a good route for him, but it takes a lot of Time Management and Self Discipline, to be successful as a Distance Learning student. Lots of motivation required...

 

Kudos to you for trying to help him!

[In The Great White North]

1. Do the testing.

 

2. Definitely homeschool. Up close and personal, not a whole online school. And redo 9th grade. His age is OK. He can apply any time between 17 and 22.

 

3. Following the "bored" theory, sign him up for the next AoPS Intro to Alg online course. Allow him to study on his own and test out of subjects (at 90% or 95% on the final exam), like CLEP for high school. Let him start a website or blog.

 

4. Check out the West Point Math website for prospective students: http://www.usma.edu/math/SitePages/Prospective%20Students.aspx In fact, have him go through the whole catalog. (If they don't send out real catalogs anymore, PM me and I'll send you one from a few years ago.)

 

5. Talk with the ROTC instructor. Have him explain to the kid what it takes to get an ROTC scholarship.

 

6. Email West Point and ask for the local Admissions Rep. This is a local person the family can meet with and plan what he needs to do to get in. Explain the whole situation ahead of time, so he is on board before he meets with them. Ask him if he can connect the kid with a current/ recent cadet as a role model.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Taking the PSAT might be a good step because it would help him quantify where he stands and what colleges might be options. It is open to students younger than junior year although juniors are focused on it because it is also the qualifying test for the National Merit scholarship.

 

Failing grades probably would make it tough for any service academy or ROTC scholarship unless there were other things that made him attractive to colleges like overcoming family hardships. I wouldn't completely write off West Point because sometimes a student is able to use overcoming a failure and maturing through it to their advantage. Much would depend on your area (how competitive), how he turns around and how his interviews go.

 

The book "That Crumpled Paper Was Due Last Week" is a good read for parents of the unorganized, especially boys.

[Caroline]

 

The book "That Crumpled Paper Was Due Last Week" is a good read for parents of the unorganized, especially boys.

 

 

I have used this book with several kids at school. Very helpful.

[Nscribe]

Two things make me think this kid needs fairly rigid structure, high expectations, and very clear directions/expectations/rules. Both ROTC and working with CAD are filled with those elements and features. Step one for me would be to talk to his ROTC leader and ask them what his strengths and weaknesses are there. If he did homeschool, I would make sure he could do something like Civil Air Patrol (if ROTC not an option). Homeschool for him would likely be best where it is a series of small concrete goals working toward a larger ones. It would likely also be best if he had at least one or two very structured classes (online or local). However, I would not have writing be one of them, because it sounds like he will need some carefully targeted multi-level simultaneous remediation and acceleration.

 

Although you did not say it, I don't suspect he is going to do any of it to please/impress a teacher or parent. If I am right, it is hard to be the adult in his life because he is not easily bribed, coaxed or persuaded. He uses apathy to mask insecurity and avoids tasks he has deemed himself to perform poorly doing. For writing he may well need an ex-military tutor, a no nonsense sort who can speak the language of writing as a process using tools.

 

One thing about schools, he likely figured out is that they will pass you on along, and thus played the game but not to win. The standards are low and this is a kid who at least in unflinched by a challenge like West Point. He has to be convinced that he has to be West Point material. It may be possible to find out about someone in his state who is currently there who might be willing to have a chat with him if a concerned mom/dad asked (and that may help make the impression). I have a friend who's son would talk to high schoolers while he was at West Point because he felt he could be help someone else wake up (you never know).

 

Is he by chance a wee bit silently defiant in other areas? If so he would not be out of line with other gifted underachievers.

[ElizabethB]

I would give him some reading tests to screen out the possibility of an underlying reading problem. The NRRF grade level test, my 8/10/12 grade level test if he passes the 6th grade NRRF test, then the MWIA level 2 and my New Elizabethian test.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/readinggradeleve.html

[LisaKinVA]

Two things make me think this kid needs fairly rigid structure, high expectations, and very clear directions/expectations/rules. Both ROTC and working with CAD are filled with those elements and features. Step one for me would be to talk to his ROTC leader and ask them what his strengths and weaknesses are there. If he did homeschool, I would make sure he could do something like Civil Air Patrol (if ROTC not an option). Homeschool for him would likely be best where it is a series of small concrete goals working toward a larger ones. It would likely also be best if he had at least one or two very structured classes (online or local). However, I would not have writing be one of them, because it sounds like he will need some carefully targeted multi-level simultaneous remediation and acceleration.

 

Although you did not say it, I don't suspect he is going to do any of it to please/impress a teacher or parent. If I am right, it is hard to be the adult in his life because he is not easily bribed, coaxed or persuaded. He uses apathy to mask insecurity and avoids tasks he has deemed himself to perform poorly doing. For writing he may well need an ex-military tutor, a no nonsense sort who can speak the language of writing as a process using tools.

 

One thing about schools, he likely figured out is that they will pass you on along, and thus played the game but not to win. The standards are low and this is a kid who at least in unflinched by a challenge like West Point. He has to be convinced that he has to be West Point material. It may be possible to find out about someone in his state who is currently there who might be willing to have a chat with him if a concerned mom/dad asked (and that may help make the impression). I have a friend who's son would talk to high schoolers while he was at West Point because he felt he could be help someone else wake up (you never know).

 

Is he by chance a wee bit silently defiant in other areas? If so he would not be out of line with other gifted underachievers.

 

I think you have described him perfectly...he is not easily bribed, coaxed or persuaded...and I think you may have something there about using apathy to mask insecurity. And yes... I do see a bit of silent defiance.

[LisaKinVA]

You all have some excellent insights and advice...I'm working on a follow-up message to his parents now (I know we'll be seeing them tomorrow, I just don't want to forget some of these points.

[Caroline]

Lisa, I just wanted to applaud you for helping this family and this kid.

[ElizabethB]

Lisa, I just wanted to applaud you for helping this family and this kid.

:iagree:

[LisaKinVA]

I hope I do get to help...he's a great kid. After reading a lot of things about the gifted underachiever...I think we've hit a nail on the head. I put together some "immediate" suggestions for them, and when we talk again...we can talk about where to go next (I was thinking about suggesting an AoPS class on number theory, or maybe introductory programming might be a good thing to try...I get nervous about possibly overwhelming him with too much, and I know AoPS is such a dramatic departure from what he's done...but, these courses aren't standard, which I think may take some pressure off? Anyone think he might actually enjoy them because they AREN'T like Algebra/Geometry, etc.?)

[joannqn]

I have a gifted underachiever. Fortunately, she is also obedient and does what she is told to do. I've had several people suggest I take her to a used curriculum store or sale or the homeschool convention and let her pick her own curriculum.

[FlockOfSillies]

Poor speller? Can't do word problems? Underachiever? Insecure? I would so totally be testing for reading problems.

[Teachin'Mine]

Absolutely agreeing with Brenda. Everything points strongly to some learning disability whether dyslexia or something else.

 

 

@ Teachin'Mine -- they will probably have an evaluation at a local testing/tutoring center. FWIW, according to his mother, these problems really didn't start until end of 7th, and into 8th...

 

Lisa, I'd have her check to make sure that the local center can actually evaluate and diagnose dyslexia or other problems. Some of the tutoring centers will work with a student who has been diagnosed, but they're not qualified to make the diagnosis there. My first step would be the evaluation by a qualified professional.

[Beth in Mint Hill]

Poor speller? Can't do word problems? Underachiever? Insecure? I would so totally be testing for reading problems.

 

This was my middle son, but he was a great reader (just slow). He is definitely dyslexic. He was homeschooled from 1st thru 12th and we were fairly relaxed, he learned to love reading. Perhaps it was because I understood his dyslexia and didn't push him very hard. In the early years we read aloud a lot, and he was very strong in auditory learning. Then as he got older he took to reading...and loved it! I thought he would need elementary readers but he didn't, he just skipped right from the basic readers (which we did in about 3rd gr) to adult books at about age 12.

 

I would recommend homeschooling to your friends--definitely! Where else can a boy receive a balanced approach to life and learning?

[LisaKinVA]

He is getting an evaluation at the local tutoring/testing center (this week), and I have suggested that they look for reading issues. I think he may be using "apathy to mask insecurity," especially with English/reading. I'm certain they will do some basic testing which will probably give an indication if additional testing is necessary. There is a more specialized service about an hour away, which they are prepared to take him to...but we all felt this would be the best first step (especially since it could take a month, or more to get into the specialized service).

 

I really hope they home school him...otherwise I can just imagine the drudgery. They are planning to enroll him in summer school, though :( (that may be just so they can keep that option open...depending upon how things go). Initially the boy was really upset, but then started blaming others/making excuses (his English teacher was harder than the teacher he had in middle school...etc.). I'm pulling together resources that could be used to help provide him with a more interesting school schedule...including CAD and programming options, trying to take his interests into account. We'll see how it all goes, though.

 

Thank you all!

[FlockOfSillies]

The CAD is one other thing that makes me think "visual learner." For homeschool, I'd be looking into video options wherever possible. IEW might be a good step-by-step choice.

 

And age notwithstanding, I would also be seriously considering having him repeat 9th grade, to give him a fresh start, especially if they find out he's got learning disabilities.

[ElizabethB]

He is getting an evaluation at the local tutoring/testing center (this week), and I have suggested that they look for reading issues. I think he may be using "apathy to mask insecurity," especially with English/reading. I'm certain they will do some basic testing which will probably give an indication if additional testing is necessary. There is a more specialized service about an hour away, which they are prepared to take him to...but we all felt this would be the best first step (especially since it could take a month, or more to get into the specialized service).

 

If he was taught in the Public Schools, he most likely got taught with sight words. The majority of my remedial students do not have dyslexia, they just have problems from sight words in school. They can gain 1 - 6 reading grade levels per month of remedial work. Those that have both problems from sight words in school and some other underlying problem will remediate much slower.

 

The key to quick remediation if reading is a problem and if the reading problem is from being taught sight words is to use a lot of nonsense words and word lists and stop all outside reading while remediating. A month of solid work with no outside reading goes a long way towards stopping guessing habits. Since 50% of any running text is made up of the Dolch sight words, any outside reading that is not a 1st grade phonics decodable reader is going to have sight words, and reading them before being fully remediated will trigger the guessing habits.

 

After I added in nonsense words and had my students stop outside reading during their remediation, my students were able to get to grade level much faster.