s/o Ask a Muslim

[unfrumpable.]

That is where my family is from :). I grew up around the Epcot Pavilion LOL.

 

 

That's really cool!

[Roadrunner]

 

 

That is where my family is from :). I grew up around the Epcot Pavilion LOL.

 

I am in love with Marrakech! I don't know what it is, but I have spent some of the happiest weeks of my life there. I would move there if I could.

 

 

I have seen anything from full covering to half naked girls on motorcycles. :)

[Um_2_4]

Been busy, but trying to touch on the major points.I haven't read all the posts yet.

 

With regards to the scarf and short sleeves, I have seen that in Pakistan and Malaysia and a few other countries, that comes from them following a saying that the lower part of the arms is not an ^awra (area to be covered). This is not what the majority of Sunni Muslims follow.

Some of the other things (tight clothes, belly showing) is cultural or those who wear the scarf for family pressure not from their hearts possibly

 

As far as the face veil, that is optional and an extra reward able deed.

 

As far as whom will enter Paradise, it is for the believers, who is that, simple. It is for the ones whom followed one of the many Muslim prophets of Allah. Isa (jesus), Musa (Moses), Mohammad and many others. Each one had true followers who believed the correct creed and followed his teachings. Those are the ones who will enter Paradise.

There are exceptions for the mentally ill, children (non pubescent), and those who NEVER heard about Islam (the call to Islam) in a language they understand. In all the schools I've studied those are all agreed upon. We say all the Propets and Messengers were Muslim and they all called to Islam. Obviously the call to Islam in ^isa's time would not have included the name of Muhammad.

 

^Isa did receive a revelation (the true Bible, Injeel), but what is now called by that name is not the same. Similar to the Torah. During this time till the Day of Judgement, the Qur'an is the book that is to be followed.

[KarenNC]

OK, I know this is trivial, but I have wondered about it but never remember to look---what about sandals? Are they allowed? Also, is halal just meat and the way it's slaughtered, or does it involve food combinations the way kosher does?

[Um_2_4]

Sandals - It depends on what school they follow. Some scholars said the feet are an area to be covered, some said it is not. So you will see some Muslim women wearing them. I do not.

 

Halal - Is a word that mean "lawful" so it can be used in many ways, but in regards to food, it primarily has to do with meat or meat containing products. If someone offers us a fruit shake (something that does not normally use a meat product :laugh: ) then we do not have to ask about the source. Now if I KNOW that the person offering it to me eats pork or non-halal meat and uses their blender to make sausages, for example, with it and she then made the shake in the same blender, I would refuse it. Halal meat is meat that is slaughtered a certain way and only by a Muslim or Jew or Christian. I do not buy meat from a place that carries non-halal meat unless they have entirely different sections (counters, knives, staff, etc.) to prevent the cross contamination. If there is a non-meat product that I happen to KNOW contains meat or meat products (gelatin, etc) then I won't buy it (some yogurts, puddings, marshmallows, cheese, etc.).

[Guest inoubliable]

Just wanted to say that this has been an extremely interesting thread. Thanks for starting it!

[Shahrazad]

Sandals/bare feet are a difference of opinion. I cover my feet so no sandals for me. Honestly, despite all that I wear this was the hardest transition for me because I HATE wearing stuff over my feet. My feet always get hot lol. Anyway, it is not a big deal issue.

 

Halal meat is used a few different ways. There is dhabihah meat, which is meat specifically slaughtered with the name of Allah said before the slaughter and then there is halal meat as in, meat that is permissible for us to eat (ie not pork. We also can't eat frogs or carnivores (so no bear meat for us!) for example). We're allowed to eat meat slaughtered by People of the Book. Some people take this REALLY seriously and refuse to eat anything unless it is from a Muslim-owned store slaughtered in the specific way or from a Muslim-owned restaurant that exclusively serves meat slaughtered in that way. We follow the opinion that unless you know it is slaughtered by other than a person of the book then it is halaal and that if you live in a country where the majority people are 'people of the book' then you would assume it is permissible to eat so we eat from everywhere as long as we know it doesn't contain pork or alcohol. We don't have an issue with mixing foods (like the dairy/meat thing in Kosher). We don't eat much meat but when we do we get from WF or the farmer's market (or a restaurant) usually these days. We sometimes buy a lamb or chicken (or rabbit lol) and do the slaughter ourselves. We've usually slaughtered a lamb at eid time and donated some to the poor, some to family, and kept some.

[Farmgirl70]

Thank you all for answering questions. I appreciate learning more about your faith and practices.

[Kate in Arabia]

May I ask another question about Muslim clothing for women?

Once I saw a lady who was wearing a burka-type outfit. It was not plain, but very fancy cloth. Over her mouth was a kind of golden, metal, grille, and it extended to a kind of stem over the bridge of her nose, up to where it met the cloth above her forehead. What was this?

On thinking it over I thought perhaps this was a kind of jewelry or even royal decoration.

Can you identify it? thank you!!

 

Where I live it is called a "burga", and as mentioned it's not as common as it used to be... but those ladies who do wear it, wear it all the time -- even at home.

 

There's an article about it from one of our local newspapers here, if you're interested. A quote:

 

While largely perceived from a Western perspective as a mask designed to conceal a woman's facial features, Umm Nasser says the burqa is in fact "part of our zeena [beauty regime], where it is meant to beautify the woman and hide all her flaws. It is not about suppression."

hth!

[stripe]

OK, I know this is trivial, but I have wondered about it but never remember to look---what about sandals? Are they allowed? Also, is halal just meat and the way it's slaughtered, or does it involve food combinations the way kosher does?

This didn't get answered. It is mostly about meat slaughter, as well as the particular meats. Pork is the most obvious example but there are others, including some more exotic fare. Also the exclusion of alcohol. But there's no combining issues like with kosher food or separate dishware. It's a lot simpler than kashrut.

[toawh]

 

 

As I mentioned up thread, the general belief is that it is for people who don't believe in Islam/ that there is no God but God and Muhammad is His messenger and who are of sound mind, adulthood, living since the advent of Islam, and have heard and understood the message but rejected it.

 

Although 2 other posters mentioned they disagreed on this premise.

 

So how specific are these requirements. Might a person believe in God and believe in a general sense that Muhammad was a messenger from Him and brought about positive change in his region, but not adore him to the degree a follower of Islam does, and according to the Koran not go to Hell?

And how does believing that non-believers are heading to hell make you feel toward them? From my experience with other moms who are visible followers of Islam, I felt they were cold and unwelcoming of me as a non-believer. Well, actually the relationship usually comes in two parts first they would try to talk about their religion at every turn possible. Then after it was apparent I was interested in them as a fellow mom but not going to convert, there was a disdain for me and a tangible disrespect for my opinions and personal beliefs. I was treated as stupid without directly saying so and the friendship dropped. I must add this is a common thing that I've felt from extremely religious people of many faiths and is not singular to followers of Islam. But I have to ask what are your feelings toward people who believe differently from you? Would you mingle with them and share other interests?

I do have a two very good friends who are followers of Islam, but they read the Koran and practice their own applications of what they read. Neither wears coverings, etc.. And their beliefs are a bit nontraditional though they claim to back each one from the book itself..

[Rosie_0801]

We watched a documentary on Muslims in Australia today. There is reason to believe they mapped parts of the north coast back in the 10th century!

[Petrichor]

 

So how specific are these requirements. Might a person believe in God and believe in a general sense that Muhammad was a messenger from Him and brought about positive change in his region, but not adore him to the degree a follower of Islam does, and according to the Koran not go to Hell?

And how does believing that non-believers are heading to hell make you feel toward them? From my experience with other moms who are visible followers of Islam, I felt they were cold and unwelcoming of me as a non-believer. Well, actually the relationship usually comes in two parts first they would try to talk about their religion at every turn possible. Then after it was apparent I was interested in them as a fellow mom but not going to convert, there was a disdain for me and a tangible disrespect for my opinions and personal beliefs. I was treated as stupid without directly saying so and the friendship dropped. I must add this is a common thing that I've felt from extremely religious people of many faiths and is not singular to followers of Islam. But I have to ask what are your feelings toward people who believe differently from you? Would you mingle with them and share other interests?

I do have a two very good friends who are followers of Islam, but they read the Koran and practice their own applications of what they read. Neither wears coverings, etc.. And their beliefs are a bit nontraditional though they claim to back each one from the book itself..

 

I know a few people (usually converts) who say they are Muslim, but they want to interpret texts like the Qur'an and books of hadith themselves. My belief, and that of the majority of the muslims is that you can only interpret texts at the allowed/forbidden level if you are incredibly well educated (something like 10+ years studying with various sciences of Islam in depth. I do believe that some things definitely do adapt with the times, for instance, one account says that 3 important skills to learn are horseback riding, archery, and swimming. Many people would argue that a modern version of this would be driving/biking, archery/using a firearm, and swimming.

 

Some muslims, especially those who come from countries where you either assume everyone is muslim, or the majority of the people are muslim, don't really know how to interact with non-muslims.

 

We dont have a strong emphasis on hell like some christian groups (not all, just some), and there is a lot of focus on the idea that we have no idea what is in a person's heart, or what is even in their future. For all I know, you could convert to Islam on your deathbed, so I'm not going to imagine a non muslim suffering in hell or anything. I do feel a little bothered when attending wakes of non-muslims. I feel strange because I feel it would be wrong to comfort the family by saying their loved one is "looking down at them" from heaven, though I would NEVER be so rude as to suggest that their loved one is suffering such a torment. And though maybe 70% of the reason for me keeping myself quiet would be etiquette, the other 30% would be because I can't really know weather God had mercy on that person or not (though that is true weather they were muslim or not (for example, the person may have been a closet believer or disbeliever).

 

That said, some people (muslims are no exception) feel uncomfortable around people of another faith, though in my experience (with muslims), it is usually because they feel that the other person wouldn't understand their beliefs. For example, if I was out at the zoo with you and I had to pray (salah) at some point during the trip, or if I didn't want my kids over your house because you have a dog (many muslims consider them unclean, and would feel uncomfortable getting dog saliva or even hair on them), or because I'd be worried that you would feed them something they aren't allowed to eat.

 

Personally, I've been turned off of friendships with some non-muslims or with some converted muslims due to what I consider crude/rude language (not the same to mainstream america, but probably similar to the standards shared by many on this board), talking about s*x, gossip, etc. I'd have no problem being friends with non-muslims, but as it is, I am very shy and don't get out much. The only friends I really have are related to my masjid.

[windmillmarie]

LOL. Yes, the young ladies do have a sense of humor about themselves (whether that is intention or unintentional remains to be seen).

 

 

Actually, I was just going to ask something like that. I grew up in a Chicago suburb area with a decent sized Muslim population. In K-8 in the 1980s, a lot of the kids in my class had older sisters and moms that were wearing just the hijab in mostly darker colors. In high school, I think most of the super-devout kids started going to Aqsa (private Muslim school) when it opened. My high school still had a big Muslim population and it was mixed, but mostly the same more neutral colored hijab if anyone even wore it.

 

I moved around the state for a while and have recently moved back. Some things I've noticed are that I am seeing way more women wearing a niqab. I noticed that there was a woman completely covered and with a niqab in the WIC office yesterday, and her husband wasn't letting her talk to the WIC desk nor talk to anyone in the waiting room. I thought that was a little weird, especially for a WIC office. The other thing I noticed is that more teen and twenty-something women were wearing some pretty funky looking hijab, inlcuding sports teams (bears and cubs mostly) tie dye, pink and things I never saw as I kid.

 

Is some of this just a cultural change for the area? Teen rebellion? I have to admit I was kind of surprised seeing the Chicago Bears hijab! Is it just people feeling more comfortable? There's a good sized Muslim population mixed in with everything else around there. I was wondering if maybe we were seeing more traditional newer immigrants from more conservative countries clashing with 4th and 5th genreational Americans wanting to blend their traditional cultures with things popular for their age group.

[Rosie_0801]

Is some of this just a cultural change for the area? Teen rebellion? I have to admit I was kind of surprised seeing the Chicago Bears hijab! Is it just people feeling more comfortable? There's a good sized Muslim population mixed in with everything else around there. I was wondering if maybe we were seeing more traditional newer immigrants from more conservative countries clashing with 4th and 5th genreational Americans wanting to blend their traditional cultures with things popular for their age group.

 

I've seen similar things here. I've figured it is all part of creating a sort of Australian Muslim identity.

[Petrichor]

 

 

Actually, I was just going to ask something like that. I grew up in a Chicago suburb area with a decent sized Muslim population. In K-8 in the 1980s, a lot of the kids in my class had older sisters and moms that were wearing just the hijab in mostly darker colors. In high school, I think most of the super-devout kids started going to Aqsa (private Muslim school) when it opened. My high school still had a big Muslim population and it was mixed, but mostly the same more neutral colored hijab if anyone even wore it.

 

I moved around the state for a while and have recently moved back. Some things I've noticed are that I am seeing way more women wearing a niqab. I noticed that there was a woman completely covered and with a niqab in the WIC office yesterday, and her husband wasn't letting her talk to the WIC desk nor talk to anyone in the waiting room. I thought that was a little weird, especially for a WIC office. The other thing I noticed is that more teen and twenty-something women were wearing some pretty funky looking hijab, inlcuding sports teams (bears and cubs mostly) tie dye, pink and things I never saw as I kid.

 

Is some of this just a cultural change for the area? Teen rebellion? I have to admit I was kind of surprised seeing the Chicago Bears hijab! Is it just people feeling more comfortable? There's a good sized Muslim population mixed in with everything else around there. I was wondering if maybe we were seeing more traditional newer immigrants from more conservative countries clashing with 4th and 5th genreational Americans wanting to blend their traditional cultures with things popular for their age group.

 

I think it's probably a cultural change, though perhaps also a sign that muslim girls (and women) are assimilating more to the society (not a bad thing). In my area, you see a rainbow of scarves. Women/girls match their scarves to their clothing and a lot of people choose to wear printed scarves (things like flowers and polka dots or lines usually). Though I've also seen designer brand (gucci and calvin klein) scarves quite a bit, I've never seen sports team scarves. I think that's hilarious!

 

A lot of the more conservative women (in both religion and culture) tend to choose solid and neutral tones, but if someone is wearing a solid black scarf, it doesn't mean they are conservative at all.

 

I think that a lot of girls wear hijab because they know it is the right thing to do, but they want to retain a sense of fashion or style, or add a certain bling to their wardrobe. Others choose to dress more modestly and choose more grown up looks, with their scarf matching/blending in with their outfit or abaya/jilbab, while others feel that plain black (or other dark tones) are best. Then others just wear the same ol' scarf day in and day out because it is their most comfortable scarf and it matches everything.

[windmillmarie]

Thank you! I can garentee if I were veiling, it'd be the same three pieces over and over and over again and probably all neutral. As it is, I wear the same two Tilley hats day in and out.

[Shahrazad]

 

So how specific are these requirements. Might a person believe in God and believe in a general sense that Muhammad was a messenger from Him and brought about positive change in his region, but not adore him to the degree a follower of Islam does, and according to the Koran not go to Hell?

And how does believing that non-believers are heading to hell make you feel toward them? From my experience with other moms who are visible followers of Islam, I felt they were cold and unwelcoming of me as a non-believer. Well, actually the relationship usually comes in two parts first they would try to talk about their religion at every turn possible. Then after it was apparent I was interested in them as a fellow mom but not going to convert, there was a disdain for me and a tangible disrespect for my opinions and personal beliefs. I was treated as stupid without directly saying so and the friendship dropped. I must add this is a common thing that I've felt from extremely religious people of many faiths and is not singular to followers of Islam. But I have to ask what are your feelings toward people who believe differently from you? Would you mingle with them and share other interests?

I do have a two very good friends who are followers of Islam, but they read the Koran and practice their own applications of what they read. Neither wears coverings, etc.. And their beliefs are a bit nontraditional though they claim to back each one from the book itself..

 

 

The statement of faith to become a Muslim is brief and is simply affirmation of belief in one God and Muhammad as the (final) messenger of God, however, contained in the statement are the implications of belief in the pillars of faith. Essentially, what is implied is that you believe in Allah (God) and that he is without partners or son, His angels, His Books (ie that they were revealed, in the perfection of the Qur'an as his divine Word...etc), His Messengers, the Last Day (ie the End), and the Divine Decree, good and bad. So belief in this statement and it is implications are what is required for entrance to Heaven/Paradise unless you are one who is exempt (children, the mentally ill/insane, those who never heard the Message, the Christians, Jews, and Sabians before the advent of Islam).

 

How does this belief make me feel to them? Well, mostly, it makes me hope that they will come to Islam but as I don't believe that i have the power to convert people and don't make it my business to force my faith on others, this manifests in praying that Allah guides them to the faith. And it makes me want them to experience good in this life because I believe that God rewards them for their good deeds in this life and in some cases, extends their lives for them as a reward as well so I want for non-Muslims even more of the enjoyable things of this world than I want for myself.

 

Regarding the moms you met who lost interest in you, I would say that they lack socials skills and a proper grasp of how Islam encourages us to treat non-Muslims and they lack a thorough understanding of daw'ah (as mentioned upthread) in being an exemplary person and showing people the beauty of Islam through that. I know a couple people like this, usually people who have converted and are very enthusiastic about their faith and feel like they want everyone to understand because they've often left Christianity so it is a sensitive subject for them but it can also be cultural differences with Muslim women from other countries (I've been in situations with family members where they said something so embarassing and didn't realize how offensive it was). A lot of times it is just personal temperament and this person would be like that with any faith they belonged to or any strongly held belief.

 

I mentioned in the other thread (which I don't think is still in existence) the reason that many of us are insular. It is common for people to congregate to people who think similarly or have a lot in common, especially when it is around something that is a huge part of one's life. Islam is a religion but it is also a lifestyle, and there are many things that I do and don't do as a result that most people would not understand. I'll give an example although it might make me look weird and hopefully you'll see what I mean. I don't listen to music with instruments in it. Instead we listen to melodic recitation of the qur'an, and nasheed (songs without instruments). Most Muslims do but the view I take is against it so I don't. I don't think it is a big deal whether someone does or doesn't but I don't and we don't in my household and we are strict in enforcing it in my family. If I tell a Muslim, whether they listen to music or not, that I don't do music they almost always understand and that is it. When my mother visits, she also knows the rules and she will respect it. But she will also constantly try to convince me by telling me that 'God doesn't care if you listen to this song or not. You're depriving your children. The Muslims I know listen to music. God told me that the most important thing is Love. I don't think he cares if you listen to music or not'. I understand why she thinks this way and she is entitled to her opinion but it is difficult to have to constantly be the odd one out. Other examples would be the dog situation mentioned by UmmAbdullah. Or wanting to go out to lunch with another mom and since it is her 'break' from the kids she wants to order a margarita but, while you don't have any desire to stop her from ordering the drink she wants, you can't sit with someone while they're consuming alcohol so you end up either in an awkward position of trying to figure out what to do or you avoid lunch altogether. Or maybe you're the one paying for lunch and they order a pork dish and now you're in a dilemma because you can't 'buy' pork or alcohol.... I hope you understand what I mean. It is NOT the person. It is about the restrictions that strictly practicing Muslims feel upon themselves and how it is hard for people who are not deeply familiar with the religion to understand. I have been friendly with a few people who were just very familiar with the religion and had spent tons of time with Muslims so they never blinked with anything I did/didn't do and that was not a problem.

 

The other reason, for me personally, is that I'm not currently a member of any groups. I have groups for my interests (homeschooling, la leche league, ICAN) but I'm not able to participate right now. I am quite young, I married very young, and I started having children young. Most girls my own age and that I encounter in my main social outlet outside of the mosque (university) are living a completely different lifestyle than me and we have nothing in common. It isn't only about faith but also about having 2 young children and being the primary caregiver for them (no babysitter for me!) So, when I do meet people I can hang out with, it tends to be other mothers from the mosque who are in a similar situation to me.

 

Back to your question though, if we were in a group together I would certainly mingle with you and share other interests. Islam is a huge huge part of my life but I have many non-religion based interests too. I've been in social situations for long periods of time and repeatedly so where my faith never came up unless someone directly asked me a question about it.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, I was just going to ask something like that. I grew up in a Chicago suburb area with a decent sized Muslim population. In K-8 in the 1980s, a lot of the kids in my class had older sisters and moms that were wearing just the hijab in mostly darker colors. In high school, I think most of the super-devout kids started going to Aqsa (private Muslim school) when it opened. My high school still had a big Muslim population and it was mixed, but mostly the same more neutral colored hijab if anyone even wore it.

 

I moved around the state for a while and have recently moved back. Some things I've noticed are that I am seeing way more women wearing a niqab. I noticed that there was a woman completely covered and with a niqab in the WIC office yesterday, and her husband wasn't letting her talk to the WIC desk nor talk to anyone in the waiting room. I thought that was a little weird, especially for a WIC office. The other thing I noticed is that more teen and twenty-something women were wearing some pretty funky looking hijab, inlcuding sports teams (bears and cubs mostly) tie dye, pink and things I never saw as I kid.

 

Is some of this just a cultural change for the area? Teen rebellion? I have to admit I was kind of surprised seeing the Chicago Bears hijab! Is it just people feeling more comfortable? There's a good sized Muslim population mixed in with everything else around there. I was wondering if maybe we were seeing more traditional newer immigrants from more conservative countries clashing with 4th and 5th genreational Americans wanting to blend their traditional cultures with things popular for their age group.

 

 

I've never seen a Chicago Bears hijab but that sounds funny! Honestly, I think it just teen fashion. I know a lot of people who dress in more conservative clothing and nothing super flashy and they often tend to be more settled down, often they are married and may have children of their own now. They may have gone through a stage like that and grew out of it. On the other hand, the ones I know who dress the way you described are mostly just having fun with trying out different 'looks' and probably won't be dressing like that 10-15 years down the road.

 

I DO wear some pretty hijabs too though. I admit I have an eye for pink and sparkly. I don't think it clashes with my niqab ;). So maybe I'm just the 4th generation hybrid.

 

Also, a great big :glare: at the guy not letting his wife speak. Maybe she just didn't speak English though. My stepmom was like that till she learned, my father always spoke for her and people would assume he was not letting her talk and talk directly to her and then she'd just look at my father for him to translate because she didn't have a clue what they said.

[Spy Car]

So who is your favorite qÄriʾ?

 

I've never found a reciter of the Qur'an who (for my taste) surpassed Shaykh Mahmoud Khalil al-Hussary. As a young man I wore the grooves off the small (incomplete) collection I had of his LPs. What beauty!

 

Maybe I need to branch out and find some more modern renditions?

 

Bill (who can not image life without the music of Umm Kulthum)

[Shahrazad]

I find Hussary excellent for memorization! Taste can vary a lot, my family members and I all have different likes and dislikes for recitations.

 

Personally, I like:

 

Sa'ad al Ghamidi

Maher Muaqaly

Khaled AbdulKafi (dh doesn't like this reciter so I play him when it is just me)

Abu Bakr Ash-Shateri (this is another one that is exclusively liked by me lol)

Muhammad Al Luhaidaan (I feel like he has an expressive/emotional voice. Here is a clip for you, Bill. There is translation on the video but it is pretty light (I couldn't read it) however there is also a full translation of what he is reading in the description)

Note: for anyone else who watches it, the battle/fighting being referred to is the Battle of Uhud in Islamic History.

 

Of course, Sudais and Shuraim for the uniqueness of their voices.

 

Abdul-Basit and Mishary Rashid Al Afasi seem to be the most popular. The latter is probably the most widely circulated in America these days.

[Shahrazad]

ETA: I must confess, I never 'got' Umm Kulthoom. I know she is supposed to be amazing and a true artist and all and I tried in the past, I swear. I know this is a travesty to most Arabs (although she is not as big in Morocco as some other countries). Maybe because I'm more of a relative teenybopper and stuck to the Arabic pop (Elissa, Samira Said, Nancy Ajram, Karole Samaha) back when I used to listen to music.

[Spy Car]

I find Hussary excellent for memorization! Taste can vary a lot, my family members and I all have different likes and dislikes for recitations.

 

Personally, I like:

 

Sa'ad al Ghamidi

Maher Muaqaly

Khaled AbdulKafi (dh doesn't like this reciter so I play him when it is just me)

Abu Bakr Ash-Shateri (this is another one that is exclusively liked by me lol)

Muhammad Al Luhaidaan (I feel like he has an expressive/emotional voice. Here is a clip for you, Bill. There is translation on the video but it is pretty light (I couldn't read it) however there is also a full translation of what he is reading in the description)

Note: for anyone else who watches it, the battle/fighting being referred to is the Battle of Uhud in Islamic History.

 

Of course, Sudais and Shuraim for the uniqueness of their voices.

 

Abdul-Basit and Mishary Rashid Al Afasi seem to be the most popular. The latter is probably the most widely circulated in America these days.

 

 

Thank you for all these!

 

I do wish I could slow down Muhammad Al Luhaidaan from 78 rpm to 33 and 1/3 (a reference that may be over the head of dear youth :D). He has an incredible voice, but the languid pace of Hossery is better for one like me whose classical Arabic is so limited.

 

Bill

 

 

[Spy Car]

ETA: I must confess, I never 'got' Umm Kulthoom. I know she is supposed to be amazing and a true artist and all and I tried in the past, I swear. I know this is a travesty to most Arabs (although she is not as big in Morocco as some other countries). Maybe because I'm more of a relative teenybopper and stuck to the Arabic pop (Elissa, Samira Said, Nancy Ajram, Karole Samaha) back when I used to listen to music.

 

 

I'm more from the Muhammed Abel Wahab, Asmahan, and Fayrouz school of Arabic music. And for more modern music love the 1980s Palestinian group "Sabreen" featuring Kamilya Jubran on vocals and qanun (ask your husband if he remembers them).

 

But Umm Kulthum (for me) is on another planet of greatness. Listening to Al Ataal breaks my heart every time.

 

Bill

[Shahrazad]

Thank you for all these!

 

I do wish I could slow down Muhammad Al Luhaidaan from 78 rpm to 33 and 1/3 (a reference that may be over the head of dear youth :D). He has an incredible voice, but the languid pace of Hossery is better for one like me whose classical Arabic is so limited.

 

Bill

 

 

Yes, he is quite fast! Although to be honest I am pretty sure he is reciting faster because they are praying taraweeh during the nights of ramadan and you really can't use the slower, more measured recitation types or you'll be there all night. I speak from personal experience praying behind new imams who haven't yet caught on to this and trying not to keel over. I usually use Hossary for memorization for this reason. Although, I did memorize these specific verses from listening to this recitation simply because of the flow, it makes me remember what happens next and why his voice changes in a certain part. Some of the others on the list are more slowly paced but I always stand by Hossary as being the best to memorize by.

 

The 'warsh' method of recitation is very big where my family is from. I'm not really familiar with this guy but here is an example of the style:

[Shahrazad]

Asmahan did have a beautiful voice and I will agree on Fayrouz, at least. I loved her songs in the past. I still sing my sons 'yallat nam' (although altered to the masculine). I doubt that dh would recognize Sabreen given his age but my FIL might.

[Spy Car]

Asmahan did have a beautiful voice and I will agree on Fayrouz, at least. I loved her songs in the past. I still sing my sons 'yallat nam' (although altered to the masculine). I doubt that dh would recognize Sabreen given his age but my FIL might.

 

 

Sabreen's albums Smoke of the Volcanoes (1984) and (my favorite) Death of the Prophet (1987) are works of beauty. They bring the best of the classical Arabic musical tradition fused fused with the spirit of the time. Amazing stuff!

 

I saw them here in Los Angeles in the late 80s, and recorded their show. They were quite surprised to discover they had an "American" fan, and took me along with them to Arizona where I reordered them again in Tuscon and Phoenix.

 

Years later, my wife and I met a Palestinian woman who was part of our nursery-school coop, and I mentioned how much I loved "Sabreen." She burst into a big smile as she told me her two brothers were the founding members (with Kamilya Jubran) of the band, which has now transformed into a foundation that teaches music to Palestinian children. My wife and I remain good friends with her and her husband ( and our sons are close) to this day. Small world.

 

Bill

[Little Nyssa]

Kate, thank you for the answer to my question-- the link is not working for me. I think I understand the burqa pretty well, but I was interested to find out about the golden metal grille-type thing.

[Kate in Arabia]

Kate, thank you for the answer to my question-- the link is not working for me. I think I understand the burqa pretty well, but I was interested to find out about the golden metal grille-type thing.

 

 

In case I wasn't clear, there's the burqa, which we all know (I think) as the Afghani style overcloak that covers the face and all. But the gold face covering you're talking about is also called a burqa (same word, different thing). So if you do a Google search for "burqa UAE" you should find some pictures and articles about it, if interested. Sorry my link didn't work.

 

 

http://www.thenation...-news/the-burqa

[Little Nyssa]

Thank you!

[Rosie_0801]

Resurrecting an old thread with a new question!

 

Do Muslims go "mosque shopping" the way Christians may go "church shopping?" I assume not in most Western countries, because the population wouldn't be great enough to have multiple mosques within a reasonable travelling distance, but what about in places there are more options?

[Kate in Arabia]

Mosques don't really serve the same function over here.  In the US, religious buildings like mosques, churches and synagogues are really more like religious community centers.  Here mosques are used only for prayers, and sometimes small classes like Qur'an memorization and/or the occasional lecture.  If you have religious questions you generally would not go to an imam here, but the religious ministry.  And because there are so many prayers a day, people are used to popping in wherever is convenient, there are mosques and prayer rooms everywhere -- like even in Ikea.  Marriages are not performed in a mosque, although funerals are but they tend to happen in the larger mosques (so not necessarily the smaller one where the deceased usually prayed) and the service itself is short... and they don't have attached halls or places where you could have a large gathering.  While most mosques have separate facilities for women, not all do and there are way fewer women who pray the daily prayers in a mosque.

 

This is all different in the US, of course; there mosques have more followed the church model, with attached schools and community centers.  They function as places for school and marriage and all kinds of activities.  Perhaps more importantly, being a minority there Muslims are more inclined to seek out each other and form community bonds using the mosque as a focal point.

 

Also, in my particular country, the weekly sermon is written by the government ministry and distributed to be read each Friday.  Even the few mosques that have English khutbahs (sermons) are just translations of the government one.  Imams who attempt to do their own thing are likely to be removed, if not deported.  So shopping around for a different mosque is only a matter of choosing someone who has a nicer recitation voice or is more exciting in delivering a prepared sermon (and not prepared by him), kwim?

 

Oddly enough (or maybe it's not so odd), religious freedom is greater for the non-Muslim communities here than the Muslims, who are subject to a lot of oversight and not allowed things like having a home-based Qur'an study group, etc.     

[Petrichor]

I'm in the US. Our mosque is a community center, though I do live in an area where there are tons of mosques. There are at least four within a 20 minute drive, and God knows how many (probably 20 or more?) within a 45 minute drive.

 

The masjid that I live nearest to is the one I go to, but I will sometimes go to the friday prayer at the other masjids, definitely if I'm in the area, but sometimes the other masjids have a special program or special speaker coming. Interesting fact, our masjid hired an Imam to lead the prayers, but he doesn't lead every prayer. We have a schedule where other community members lead some of the prayers, including the friday prayer (and giving the sermon(their own, original sermon)).

 

In Ramadan, our imam leads the ishaa (night) prayer, but someone else (a young 20 something who has memorized the qur'an and has a beautiful, easy to understand recitation) leads the 2 hour long taraweh prayers that come after ishaa.

 

So that kind of takes away the idea of shopping for a mosque based on who the imam is :)

 

In our community, I see that many of the masjids tend to be separated by race and language (though the lines appear to be blurring now that the children of the immigrants (who identify as american) have grown up). Our masjid is primarily indo/pakistani, and a lot of the arabs from our city actually drive 30 or so minutes away to another masjid that is primarily arab.

 

I think that people usually buy/rent with proximity of the masjid in mind, since those who actually attend the masjid find they go there much more than once a week (usually once a day or much more often). Only men are required to actually go to the friday sermon (though lots of women usually go too - in the West, anyhow), so they usually just take an hour off in the middle of the work day and go to the closest masjid. My husband used to attend a masjid near his work that gave the friday sermon in arabic only, and since the majority of the congregation wasn't arabic speaking, the sermon was very short, like 15 minutes long, whereas our local masjid's friday sermon is usually closer to 45 min.

 

Some people DO "masjid shop" either because they have issues with the community nearest them, or because they want a masjid that actually speaks english, or because the masjid closest to them is shia and they are sunni or vice versa. But if there's a special program going on at a different masjid, people have no trouble attending a masjid other than the one that they usually go to. And it's not like if people find out that you are going to more than one masjid you will be thought of as unloyal or anything. In fact, some of the people who get out and attend programs at many different masjids in the community are looked at as being better for the communities, since they connect people from all over.

[Rosie_0801]

Thank you for these two, detailed answers!

[Heather in Neverland]

I have a question about the men and women not touching each other custom.

 

I am a principal of a school in Malaysia and yesterday three Muslim men on vacation from Saudi Arabia (who work at a school there) came into my office asking for a tour of the school.

 

Yes, I know I am not supposed to touch them. But it was one of those super busy moments in the office with a ton of parents and teachers in and out, they showed up with no appointment, the admissions coordinator was at lunch, so the secretary interrupted my meeting to see if I could show them around.

 

So when I walked out I introduced myself as the principal and did the American business greeting... I put my hand out to shake theirs. It was one of those moments where, right when I put my hand out, it registered in my brain "oh, right, I'm not supposed to touch them" but it was too late... My hand was already out. Awkward. So I start to pull my hand back but the first guy shook it anyways.

 

But then he wiped his hand off on his shirt! Three times! I'm sorry. I know he is not supposed to touch me but I would rather him have just refused to shake my hand then to shake it and then wipe it off like I have some kind of disgusting germs because I am a woman. He was visibly surprised that a woman was in charge as well and actually questioned me about it.

 

So I have to ask... Is that what a Muslim man is supposed to do if he touches a woman? Wipe it off on his shirt? Is that the expectation?

 

It's just different here. Even though Malaysia is a Muslim country, I think it is more easy-going. I have shaken hands in business interactions with plenty of Muslims here and no one has ever refused or wiped it off. And women in positions of authority are fairly common so this interaction definitely took me by surprise.

[Rosie_0801]

I hope a bloke does his laundry for him. :p

 

Maybe it was an unconscious reflex just like yours and now he is at home telling his brother what he did and lamenting that now you'll charge him higher tuition.

[Amy in TX]

I have a question about the men and women not touching each other custom.

 

I am a principal of a school in Malaysia and yesterday three Muslim men on vacation from Saudi Arabia (who work at a school there) came into my office asking for a tour of the school.

 

Yes, I know I am not supposed to touch them. But it was one of those super busy moments in the office with a ton of parents and teachers in and out, they showed up with no appointment, the admissions coordinator was at lunch, so the secretary interrupted my meeting to see if I could show them around.

 

So when I walked out I introduced myself as the principal and did the American business greeting... I put my hand out to shake theirs. It was one of those moments where, right when I put my hand out, it registered in my brain "oh, right, I'm not supposed to touch them" but it was too late... My hand was already out. Awkward. So I start to pull my hand back but the first guy shook it anyways.

 

But then he wiped his hand off on his shirt! Three times! I'm sorry. I know he is not supposed to touch me but I would rather him have just refused to shake my hand then to shake it and then wipe it off like I have some kind of disgusting germs because I am a woman. He was visibly surprised that a woman was in charge as well and actually questioned me about it.

 

So I have to ask... Is that what a Muslim man is supposed to do if he touches a woman? Wipe it off on his shirt? Is that the expectation?

 

It's just different here. Even though Malaysia is a Muslim country, I think it is more easy-going. I have shaken hands in business interactions with plenty of Muslims here and no one has ever refused or wiped it off. And women in positions of authority are fairly common so this interaction definitely took me by surprise.

 

No, that is certainly not the expectation, lol.  It's all the more absurd given that the reason unrelated men and women aren't supposed to touch each other is not because of cooties--it's simply out of modesty and propriety.  He can't touch her--not because she will somehow contaminate him, but because he has no right to touch her. 

 

I can only guess that he was caught off guard and confused as you were and reacted in some silly way without thinking. 

 

[Um_2_4]

Heather, no that is not what he is "supposed" to do. It might have just been reflex (like he remembered later) ? You were busy, maybe you had something on your hand?? (LOL kidding, I taught KG, I usually had something on me, glue, glitter, play dough) He shouldn't have shook your hand in the first place. My husband works in business here and he simply puts his hand on his chest and says "I don't shake hands" , only 1 person ever said anything to him.  Oh and the principal at the Muslim school I taught at has always been a woman.

[Petrichor]

Lol Heather! I agree it was probably a reflex. Maybe he knew that he wasn't supposed to shake hands with women, but forgot(or was never taught) the reason why? There is a belief floating around with some muslims that if a man "touches a woman" his wudu (ritual purity obtained via washing the limbs) leaves him, though the majority take it to mean "touching a woman intimately."

 

You have every right to feel offended, though I think his reaction was hilarious, and that is probably why he acted so surprised that you (as a woman) were in charge (he was embarrassed).

[Stacia]

Do all Muslims believe in non-representational art? Or is 'western' (or other 'representational' types/cultural art) style art ok? When is one type preferred/ok vs. prohibited/not ok? (In religious books, as pictures hung on the wall in the home, in museums, etc...?)

 

What about things like children's picture books? Art museums in Muslim countries?

 

Just curious because I'm a very visual person, love looking at art of all kinds, & wonder how strict adherence is to not having 'representational' art is? (Hope I'm explaining this well enough.)

[Um_2_4]

Do all Muslims believe in non-representational art? Or is 'western' (or other 'representational' types/cultural art) style art ok? When is one type preferred/ok vs. prohibited/not ok? (In religious books, as pictures hung on the wall in the home, in museums, etc...?)

 

What about things like children's picture books? Art museums in Muslim countries?

 

Just curious because I'm a very visual person, love looking at art of all kinds, & wonder how strict adherence is to not having 'representational' art is? (Hope I'm explaining this well enough.)

 

We do not display portraits of people or animals, nor draw them, is that what you are asking? Is that what you mean by non-representational?

 

I don't think I've seen much in the way of drawings in religious texts other than diagrams/maps.

 

I don't buy clothes with people/animals on them. (Can make finding baby clothes tough. Why do so many manufacturers think PJs need monkeys/dogs/cats/cows/etc on them??!!  How about rainbows,hearts,cars, planes, trucks, stars, clouds, seriously people LOL)

 

There is TONS of art that does not focus on people/animals. I have a gorgeous handmade Belgian woven tapestry hanging in my formal dining of Lake Como in Italy(similar to this but MUCH bigger), art is in many things around me. The carved buffet in the dining area, Calligraphy framed and hanging in the hall, flower painting (an original by a local artist DH got on auction "for a song" as they say) in the family room, I have TONS of art in my house. (DS asks when DH will stop buying new art, DH is also a collector LOL). DH has a digital collection of photos from long ago that he wants to print professionally and frame (famous places and how they looked when cameras were first invented). I just pick things that don't have people or animals in them.

 

As far as books, there are different sayings I've heard and obviously I have tons of books (LOL, hence I'm on here), but they are not out and displayed. I teach my kids about famous artists, largely to put it in historical context and also for their cultural literacy. I don't want them to hit college and go "Monet, who's that?" iykwim.

 

I think most countries I've visited have museums (more history related in my experience).  Not many I visited have a large collection of paintings/statues/etc just because they don't have many people there who "work" in that field. Now you want a carved bed that would exceed those in Versailles? I can hook you up.(trust me I've seen both)

 

How strictly is it followed? Many do not follow it, many have family portraits hanging in their homes, etc. In fact I would say it is more rare to find someone who adheres to it than the opposite, does that make sense? Even among my friends I am more strict than many.

 

There is a wisdom behind the rules, but not everyone even learns the rules. I have met quite a few people raised in a Muslim home who don't  learn much about the rules of Islam other than the basics.

[Kate in Arabia]

It's just different here. Even though Malaysia is a Muslim country, I think it is more easy-going. I have shaken hands in business interactions with plenty of Muslims here and no one has ever refused or wiped it off. And women in positions of authority are fairly common so this interaction definitely took me by surprise.

 

I don't think it should be a surprise that Malaysia is different in societal customs than Saudi Arabia. ;)    My dh works for a local government college system here, so over the years we have been invited to a lot of different activities where I would come into contact with local men (aside from everyday casual stuff like at a store, kwim?).  There has been a range of how that has gone...There is something to be said for cultural differences, and also something to be said for individual quirks.

[Kate in Arabia]

Do all Muslims believe in non-representational art? Or is 'western' (or other 'representational' types/cultural art) style art ok? When is one type preferred/ok vs. prohibited/not ok? (In religious books, as pictures hung on the wall in the home, in museums, etc...?)

 

What about things like children's picture books? Art museums in Muslim countries?

 

Just curious because I'm a very visual person, love looking at art of all kinds, & wonder how strict adherence is to not having 'representational' art is? (Hope I'm explaining this well enough.)

 

There is a range of opinion and practice on this topic.  I don't think you can assume what an individual Muslim will believe or follow, some believe that any representation is forbidden, others make exceptions, and still others don't believe there is any curtailment.  If you look in most art museums -- aside from, perhaps, Saudi -- you will find pretty much what you'd see in any other museum in the world.  Here in UAE there is a very vibrant art community, encompassing all the traditional media and topics.

 

Although some of those who do not allow any representational art will include any and all children's materials (including books, clothes, tv, etc.), I think many do make some exceptions here.  Otherwise it's very open -- people/animals are depicted in children's books, and you have a hard time finding children's clothes here without animals or what have you on them, particularly for smaller kids.

[Kate in Arabia]

There is a wisdom behind the rules, but not everyone even learns the rules. I have met quite a few people raised in a Muslim home who don't  learn much about the rules of Islam other than the basics.

 

Not to nitpick, but just because people follow a different way on this topic does not mean they are ignorant of the "rules".  They may be educated on the topic and just came to different conclusions.  The "rules" are not understood the same way by everyone, even scholars.

 

FWIW, we (you and I) are probably closer in how we individually interpret this issue than not, but within my circle of friends there's a pretty wide variance.

 

[Um_2_4]

Not to nitpick, but just because people follow a different way on this topic does not mean they are ignorant of the "rules".  They may be educated on the topic and just came to different conclusions.  The "rules" are not understood the same way by everyone, even scholars.

 

FWIW, we (you and I) are probably closer in how we individually interpret this issue than not, but within my circle of friends there's a pretty wide variance.

 

 

That is true, some may have learned the rules and follow a different madh'hab.  I just have run into where many from the outside kind of "assume" that all Muslims know the same things and thus are confused when Friend "A" from country X does it one way and Friend "B" from Country Y does it another way. Explaining that not all Muslims learn Fiqh helps. Explaining the 4 schools of Fiqh would require more time/space than this board I think.

I mean some sayings allow for "partial" portraits (ie not complete drawings of the human/animal figure, so only the head or torso or the like). Maliki allows for drawings but no statues, etc. But I didn't really want to get THAT far into details on here, know what I mean?

[Stacia]

Thanks for the clarification on art. (I realized after I typed last night & shut my computer down that not every Muslim will follow the same interpretation of what I was asking. I think my post was not worded well.)

 

So, generally, representations of people & animals might be the things most avoided? You mention nature-related art (landscape, flowers) & those would more generally be considered acceptable?

[Um_2_4]

Thanks for the clarification on art. (I realized after I typed last night & shut my computer down that not every Muslim will follow the same interpretation of what I was asking. I think my post was not worded well.)

 

So, generally, representations of people & animals might be the things most avoided? You mention nature-related art (landscape, flowers) & those would more generally be considered acceptable?

 

Yes, by many. If you are asking about a specific family, look around their house. If you see family portraits they follow one school. Looking around and you don't see any, then they may follow another school (or their kids won't sit still for formal portraits LOL)!

[Little Nyssa]

Dear Muslim ladies, I have another question... could you tell me what is the usual response to a Muslim converting to another religion?  Would it be seen differently if a person converted to Christianity or Judaism, vs Buddhism or Hinduism or Zoastrianism or Bahai, or other? What is the traditional theology, and what is the response that might be seen culturally nowadays in the various geographical areas? And what about if a Muslim became an atheist?  Or, if a Muslim stops doing daily prayers and the other important aspects of the faith, and if you ask him, says something like "Oh, I don't believe anymore,"as  you may occasionally hear someone who used to be Christian say?

Thank you very much for the opportunity to ask this question-- I have always wondered about this, and I apologize if the question seems offensive or provocative.  That is not my intent, because I would genuinely like to know.

[Petrichor]

If a good friend of mine said this, I would(and have) counsel them. I would ask them why they feel that way, and address their specific concerns, but basically just let them talk about whatever is bothering them.

 

If it was a not so close friend of mine, especially if it wasn't a family member, or a close family friend, we probably just wouldn't see so much of them anymore. Not because we wouldn't want to hang out anymore, but because the only times I really meet with friends is over something religious. Masjid or religious study circles. But after a first conversation trying to convince them that God tests us with really hard things sometimes (which doesn't mean He has abandoned us) or a similar conversation based on circumstances, I would expect to continue our relationship just as any relationship.

 

It wouldn't be considered "ok" if they converted to a monotheistic faith such as Christianity or Judaism, but it might be considered to be "better" than a polytheistic faith since it would seem to me like they are more likely to come back to the faith in the future.

 

That would be my reaction. I know some people (mostly younger people) who would feel a little uncomfortable about it, but either wouldn't say anything about it, or would just ask a few questions and continue on with that person (assuming they still want to have a relationship with muslims).

 

And I know some other people (some older people, immigrants, or young people too) who would be very upset with the person, to the point of shunning him/her (or the other extreme, trying to forcefully revert the person back to Islam).

 

To address a different part of your question, if a Muslim stops doing prayers. With women especially, prayer is a very private thing. You wouldn't know that a person stopped doing their prayers unless they told you "I'm not going to pray, I don't want to." There is a phrase you hear coming out of women's mouths all the time "I'm not praying" but it's really just code for "I'm on my period so I'm neither obligated nor permitted to pray." But I do know some younger girls who just try to act like they're always on their period and don't pray. It's a personal thing though. Prayer is the most consistently outwardly visible and important thing in the faith, but still you can't always tell. And besides, their are some muslims who only pray when people are around, or only pray twice a year on the two eids, but unless i'm logging their salah, I don't know who they are, nor would I care to know (and my experience is that the same holds true for many muslims, though we may limit our friends and the influences on our children to more outwardly religious people.

 

For men, they are supposed to pray all 5 prayers in the masjid each day. In the west, it's not usually possible unless the man has a flexible job and lives near to the masjid, or is just really committed to getting there. In a Muslim country, it's different, because there are masjids everywhere. Men usually notice if someone is missing but is usually present, so they might get called out on it, but that's all I can think of.

 

And of course, we've all heard reports of people taking things way too far when it comes to this kind of stuff (though that's definitely NOT the usual reaction.

[Rosie_0801]

Resurrecting!

I'm trying to put the 'Quran Stories for Little Hearts' books into roughly the right order. Alas, Wikipedia is not providing quite enough guidance. :p

Where does the creation of the world fit in? 

 

[Kate in Arabia]

I had to google the series, because we did have those at one point but I think gave them away some years ago (once my littles weren't so little anymore).  There is a book in there that's titled "Life Begins" which is talking about creation, and after that I think is the one about Adam, which is something like "The First Man"?  Do you already have these books?  I can't remember if there was a list on the back covers of all the titles, in order, or not.  Are you needing all the titles put in order time-wise?  I could at least do that for you going off the descriptions I see from google, going off the prophet names...