s/o job training/career or calling?

[cavscout96]

so I posted this in what someone characterized as a "zombie thread," but I'd be intereted to know folks' thoughts. backgorund: mother was concerned about dughter's distaste of schoolwork. daughter had a TON of musical interests and abilities, and a desire to serve. bold portions in the quote below are my edits for emphasis. teh italics are my adds.

 

be sure to watch the video. it's 20 mins, but worth your time.

 

If it was me, I would do my level best to ensure she got the most education that she can be encouraged to get, and most importantly, a real life job skill. No child should start life without a decent high school education, IMO. Could she develop her musical training to the point of being able to teach piano? why not a world-renowned concert pianist It just leaves her so vulnerable.

 

I have too many friends trapped in awful marriages because they have absolutely no way to support themselves. I think a very realistic approach is to insist, firmly but lovingly, that she complete her high school education and serve some kind of apprenticeship\job skill program, if she is not the college type.

 

I could not disagree more with this statement. Life is not about finding a job, it's about finding your calling.

 

 

Interesting TED lecture from Sir Ken Robinson on creativity:

 

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html?qshb=1&utm_expid=166907-20

[cavscout96]

12 min marks picks up a bit of this discussion

[regentrude]

While I agree that "life is not about finding a job, but about finding your calling", the reality for most people, unless they are independently wealthy, is that they will need a source of income to support themselves and their families, and that would typically be a JOB.

I find the bolded advice very sensible. If the student has a musical talent and passion, using this gift to support herself seems a very good idea. And lets face it: most pianists do not end up as the world renowned concert pianist, but WILL end up teaching music to make a living. So, while the young lady should definitely work towards her goal as a musician, she would be well advised to remain realistic and keep in mind that very few musicians will be able to have this dream career.

I agree with the quoted poster in that I consider completing a high school education as non-negotiable. None of this means that the girl is discouraged from following her passion, but the adult's job is to temper the teenage enthusiasm with some practical sense.

I would always strive to channel the passion and gift in such a way that it also supports the student; if this seems unlikely (as in my children's wish to become famous authors), I find it important that the student's education does not close doors. Not having a high school diploma closes a lot of doors.

Advising a student to just "follow her dreams" without giving any thought to the practical aspect of supporting herself would seem irresponsible to me.

 

I do not have time to watch the video now because I have to go to my job that I happen to be passionate about and that I might consider a "calling", but that also helps me pay the bills.

[cavscout96]

and the 16 min mark

[cavscout96]

While I agree that "life is not about finding a job, but about finding your calling", the reality for most people, unless they are independently wealthy, is that they will need a source of income to support themselves and their families, and that would typically be a JOB.

 

I find the bolded advice very sensible. If the student has a musical talent and passion, using this gift to support herself seems a very good idea. And lets face it: most pianists do not end up as the world renowned concert pianist, but WILL end up teaching music to make a living. So, while the young lady should definitely work towards her goal as a musician, she would be well advised to remain realistic and keep in mind that very few musicians will be able to have this dream career.

I agree with the quoted poster in that I consider completing a high school education as non-negotiable. None of this means that the girl is discouraged from following her passion, but the adult's job is to temper the teenage enthusiasm with some practical sense.

I would always strive to channel the passion and gift in such a way that it also supports the student; if this seems unlikely (as in my children's wish to become famous authors), I find it important that the student's education does not close doors. Not having a high school diploma closes a lot of doors.

Advising a student to just "follow her dreams" without giving any thought to the practical aspect of supporting herself would seem irresponsible to me.

 

I do not have time to watch the video now because I have to go to my job that I happen to be passionate about and that I might consider a "calling", but that also helps me pay the bills.

 

 

- JOB - to what levle of comfort? do we need cable tv and a screen in every room with iPhones and gadgets galore??

- let's face it... well advised to remain realistic - I wonder where we would be if the great writers, painters, and composers of the past had gone to high school instead.......

 

I understand we can't necessarily all be Shakespeares or Michelangelos, but neither should we all be cogs in a machine.

[Murphy101]

I'm firmly encamped with regentrude.

 

Giving my children both the best education I can possibly give them, even if I have to drag them through it by the scuff of their necks ;p , AND giving them some kind of working skills, they can choose to do anything they want with it or nothing at all - but it is theirs for life and no one can take it from them.

 

I don't care if they clean pianos or travel the world or stay home, but I want them to have choices. And not having a decent education and marketable skill is incredibly limiting in choices. And it is my opinion that limitedness is exactly what turns people into cogs.

[Lilaclady]

I agree with Regentrude and Martha. I had watched the video a while back and while I do agree with some of the things Sir Ken said, I have to say I do not agree with everything.

 

When you said you wondered about what would have happened to all the great composers etc, I had to chuckle. Most of these people did not become great just because they had the talent. You should read about them. They became great because they dedicated themselves to their jobs and I have to say most of the were not rich either. Van Gogh did not sell one painting in his lifetime and Mozart died a pauper. Most of them did not do what they did for the money.

 

I will advice the afore mentioned young lady to study music but also study business so what ever path she decides to go, she can be well equipped to do it. But honestly, when you have someone who does not want to do their schoolwork, I wonder how well they will fare when they have to practice for 6 hrs a day. Becoming a concert pianist is not a walk in the park

[Murphy101]

Indeed. And it's not like people who bc great at something don't still need a foundational education. In fact, one could argue they need it more.

[regentrude]

The great composers? Hm, let me see.

Many struggled with lifelong poverty. Many did very well - because they happened to be employed by a King, Handel for example. One of the greatest composers, JS Bach, had a job where the majority of his time was spent teaching, rehearsing with the choir, writing music to be performed that very Sunday.

Btw, most DID complete whatever formal education was available to them and went on to post secondary education in their field.

 

How do you come up with the idea that the great writers, painters and composers did not go to school?

A gifted music student who wants to become that famous concert pianist better get a spot at a top music school to study. And to get in, you need a high school education.

 

ETA: You mention Michelangelo. He started as an apprentice and trained until he was good enough to be paid for painting and sculpture. He did not set out to become a world famous artist, he fulfilled commissions by nobles and popes and got paid for them. He had some quite miserable Art related drudgery in his life, and his dealings with the employers who paid him were at times unpleasant. His life was hardly the glamorous life of a free spirit who does not have to care about paying his bills - he is actually a perfect example of an artist who was scrambling to sell his skills and make a living from his talent.

[stripe]

Van Gogh did not sell one painting in his lifetime

 

I thought he actually sold one. One! Which is perhaps more depressing than none. And cut off his ear in despair. Not a very cheery role model in one sense, but certainly an artistic genius. The one artist I know who makes a decent living only does so now, after about 35 years of extreme poverty.

 

I think there is also nothing wrong with having your life love or enjoyable pasttime be different from your job. Like, it's great if you love to cook or play to guitar or go for hikes or whatever, but you don't have to STOP being a teacher, nurse, or electrician in order to do those things. Your life can be multi-dimensional.

[LucyStoner]

I'm afraid I was raised on too little money to have the privilege of thinking my life would be only for a calling. See, I like to eat and have a roof over my head. I know, I'm pretty soft. Food and a roof were not things that I could take for granted or as a given as a child. A job is often needed to pay for that roof and food. Supporting my kids and making sure they don't know the poverty that I did as a child? That's a calling above all others.

[cavscout96]

hmm.......

 

so it's all about the money and living comfortably it seems.......

 

@ stripe.... BTW....I llike your verse in your sig

 

 

anyone take the time to watch the video? If you just watch from 12-18 min mark you might not change your mind, but it might give you a lttle different perspective.

 

don't get me worng, I am a huuge fan of education. I just finished the final requiremetns for my MA last week, but I will likely never work in the field I studied. It was purely a means to an end. All I'm saying is do we ruin the creative genius of our young by insisting they pursue a technical education over their passion. I know plently of talented, yet miserable, people who earn a decent living, but are unhappy with their profession.

[cavscout96]

@Katie

 

I can empathize. My mom worked two jobs and night school as a single parent when I was a kid. I worked three jobs during one summer to pay the rent and make it through my final semester in college.

[regentrude]

All I'm saying is do we ruin the creative genius of our young by insisting they pursue a technical education over their passion. I know plently of talented, yet miserable, people who earn a decent living, but are unhappy with their profession.

 

Nobody insisted that the young lady should pursue a technical education over her music passion.

It was suggested that she finishes high school and that she considers getting the training needed to make a living using her musical gift, i.e. to teach piano.

This is what you quoted:

No child should start life without a decent high school education, IMO. Could she develop her musical training to the point of being able to teach piano?

 

The job training was suggested in case she felt unable to pursue this avenue which would require a college education.

 

I am not aware of a word famous concert pianist without formal training.

 

ETA: I really don't get your point. If she wants to be a serious musician, getting a quality music education seems like a no brainer - how else would she be able to live her dream?

[Arcadia]

so it's all about the money and living comfortably it seems.......

 

 

Sometimes it is about feeding and clothing their kids while their spouses are in jail for another time. Or being a widow with young kids who needs to rejoin the workforce. I know both kinds in real life and welfare is insufficient.

 

I also know people who made it to Juilliard but could not get a decent job as a musician and make a comfortable living teaching piano. Nothing is guaranteed in life and not finishing high school for a neurotypical child is just not practical nowadays (excluding extenuating circumstances)

[cavscout96]

I think you will find that, by and large, a Public High School education is a "technical" education. Opposed to say a Julliard, for example.

 

edited for clarity in bold.

[cavscout96]

please define "comfortable" and "practical"

[cavscout96]

DP

[cavscout96]

Sometimes it is about feeding and clothing their kids while their spouses are in jail for another time. Or being a widow with young kids who needs to rejoin the workforce. I know both kinds in real life and welfare is insufficient.

 

I also know people who made it to Juilliard but could not get a decent job as a musician and make a comfortable living teaching piano. Nothing is guaranteed in life and not finishing high school for a neurotypical child is just not practical nowadays (excluding extenuating circumstances)

 

 

I think both of your examples demonstrate atypical situations. Not that there are not widows or wives with imprisoned husbands, but what percentage of the population do these demographics represent. Of that how many fit into the category we are discussion here?

 

 

lastly, when did neurotypical enter the discussion?

[Murphy101]

Comfortable = being able to live in a healthy way

 

Practical = being able to provide that living without feeling like they are selling their soul

 

I'm still at a loss as to why it has to be an either or situation. It's not like any child prodigy musician or otherwise is going to be less good of a prodigy just because they also studied biology, algebra, literature and history. *confused*

[cavscout96]

It's not necessarily about prodigy. It's about calling. Why do we expect our kids to study algebra and biology if that is not what they are called to do. In this particular case, the young lady involved was called to serve (family, church, etc.) and had a gift (music). The question is/was what degree of importance is placed on pursuing her calling (helping others and music study/ministry) and what importance is placed on school training/education.

 

I'm not sure I understand your definitions of comfortable or practical in the context of the original post.

 

It does not necessarily need to be either/or, but there are only so many hours in a week so it becomes a matter of priorities.

[Lilaclady]

How do you know for certainty what your child's calling is ? Unless you have a child that has shown outstanding gift in something, sometimes you don't know. So it is a parents responsibility to prepare their child for what ever their calling might be. I have a degree in computer systems engineering but have never worked a day as a systems engineer. My degree has however served me well in being able to teach my kids at home. If nothing else, it is saving us money that we might be using to pay science and math teachers right now.

A knowledge of algebra and biology might not help her in her career but will help her in being a more informed citizen of her society and might even come in handy when she has kids of her own and wants to educate them

[LucyStoner]

Why should a woman who hopes to be a mother (and possibly homeschool her kids) know a few things about high school math and biology? I don't even need to answer that question.

 

Also, I left high school thinking I was going to get a degree in poli sci or journalism. A year later, I rediscovered my aptitude for math and found a passion for math that led me to change my whole focus and plan. I was in the math class because of finding a stronger interest in econ than poly sci and I needed a couple of calc classes for that. In college though, it was a game changer because of the professor and the time just being right. But had I not had enough high school math (algebra II, pre-calc with trig) to meet the prereq for the calc class? I might have never even known I loved math because I might have been forced to stick with poly sci unless I wanted to take a year or more remedial math classes. As it was, tutoring math helped me pay for college. Having options is never a bad thing. What is to be gained by taking options off the table at age 16?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Who exactly provides for Passionate Person if the passion doesn't pay? A very few gifted and talented people are the sole heirs to great fortune or the only children of wealthy parents who won't mind them living at home forever if necessary. But if there is no such benefactor, Passionate Person finds a way to earn his bread and butter while pursuing his passion when he can, dreaming of and working toward the day when perhaps passion might pay. In most societies, the likelihood of being able to earn one's bread and butter (whether one spends the weekend composing sonatas or just watching South Park reruns) rather depends upon education. This is not difficult to understand.

[violamama]

Distaste of schoolwork vs. massive musical talent? No problem. Teach that sucker to work through difficulty, and to find a way to make the challenge worthwhile.

 

Even the most ridiculously talented, insanely passionate, well-employed musician will tell you it's not just "doing what you love" everyday, despite every drunk uncle at every social situation who might congratulate them on finding such posh employment. This is a fantasy of people who play "for fun". I'm not a bitter old shriveled musician- it's a pleasure and all that but the best things come through consistent hard work. Emphasis on "hard".

 

Everything worthwhile is a challenge at some point. Every prodigy has done their time, and talent alone is not fulfillment of purpose. Not every miraculous prodigy makes a name for themselves, either. I don't see any tension at all between insisting on diligence in school and promoting diligence in a specialty.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

It does not necessarily need to be either/or, but there are only so many hours in a week so it becomes a matter of priorities.

 

 

Well, this is one reason to homeschool. Consider the child athletes, actors, and musicians who homeschool so that they can learn their necessary lessons in the most efficient way possible while leaving the majority of time to pursue their talent. Non-elite hs'ers also have that advantage, to a lesser degree. Gladwell's 10,000 hours are reached more quickly by people who don't have evening homework.

[cavscout96]

I think this whole discussion turns on one's perspective of what is a comfortable existance?

 

We, in the US, have decided that to be "comfoirtable" we need "x" sq ft house, two cars, a smart phone, two wage-earning parents, etc, etc. to be truly "happy."

 

@Tibbie earning one's bread and butter, so to speak, does not take much education. earning steak and cavier is a different story.

[cavscout96]

Well, this is one reason to homeschool. Consider the child athletes, actors, and musicians who homeschool so that they can learn their necessary lessons in the most efficient way possible while leaving the majority of time to pursue their talent. Non-elite hs'ers also have that advantage, to a lesser degree. Gladwell's 10,000 hours are reached more quickly by people who don't have evening homework.

 

 

 

on this I dfinitely concur. I submit that these elite athletes, etc are not taking college prep course in many (maybe most) cases and are meeting minimum requirements. Therefore, they have prioritized there passion over a piece of paper. Exactly what I was driving at when I started this discussion.

[cavscout96]

@ ATFm for clarification. This particular cuircumstance was a 16 y/o young lady. I would think at 16 a parent and young adult may have a fair inkling of where the "child" may excel and where they may not be well suited.

 

 

I suppose the question boils down to the the title of the thread than my opening comment. To understand the perspective from whihc I view this, you first must believe that you have a calling. I'm not sure everyone believes this. I'm certain that even of those who believe in a "no kidding" calling, many have not been able to place theirs. This is really less about passion and more about what you've been called to do (even if that means you don't become wealthy doing it)

[kiana]

Why do you assume that you know what everyone else thinks a "comfortable" existence is?

 

For me, a comfortable existence is one where I can provide for people who depend on me so that we are not hungry, we have health insurance and we know where next month's rent is coming from.

 

I have never had cable TV in my life. I have never had a smart phone. I do have a cell phone now because it was cheaper than the land line but it's a very basic model. I drive a beat-up old junker that I paid $500 for and when it dies I'll buy another one like it.

 

And yet I still submit that encouraging a 16 year old to drop all academics and not complete high school in favor of doing nothing but music is a crazy plan. The girl in question wanted to be a wife and mother. What happens when her husband dies or is disabled? What happens when she never meets an appropriate guy? What happens when she does meet a guy and he turns out to be an outwardly charming secret abuser? Everyone ought to be prepared to support themselves in some way.

 

I know several people who are extremely, extremely talented in music. Not one of them is a world-renowned concert musician. Every one of them has either found another career or is scraping together a living by giving lessons.

 

"Life is not about finding a job" is a fine idea if you're independently wealthy. Those of us who are not so blessed need to find ways to mix what we really love with something that can earn us a living. And I can't picture why it's a good idea to set a teenager up so that there's a 99.9% chance that she'll always be dependant on someone else's goodwill to get food on the table.

[Mama Geek]

I have a relative that is trying to break into the writing world. He has a degree and has worked in a well paying field, but decided to stay home with his daughter when his wife decided to follow her dreams for work. She makes enough to support the family.

 

He has had to learn how to make good contacts, how to sell his work, how to track down when someone publishes his work with out paying him for it, how to market himself, and many other things including getting better at writing. It has taken him years to get started good, but he now has articles published twice a month in several places around the country. He isn't big yet, but he is working on it and making progress towards it. There is a lot that can be learned from completing and education including persistence.

[LucyStoner]

I think this whole discussion turns on one's perspective of what is a comfortable existance?

 

We, in the US, have decided that to be "comfoirtable" we need "x" sq ft house, two cars, a smart phone, two wage-earning parents, etc, etc. to be truly "happy."

 

@Tibbie earning one's bread and butter, so to speak, does not take much education. earning steak and cavier is a different story.

 

You are making a huge set of assumptions here. My husband (from an affluent background) and I (from childhood poverty) have never lived in (nor wanted to live in) more than a 1450 sf home. We've never had (nor wanted to have) 2 cars. We do have smart phones which we get for a song through my husband's employer and we consider them to be our monthly splurge. We've always placed a high value on savings (retirement, emergency fund) and on time with our children. We have never both worked FT at the same time since we had kids to ensure that we keep our children with one of us most of the time and constrain childcare costs to a reasonable level. Now I am staying home mostly fulltime in part because of homeschooling. My husband works and goes to school. This meant chopping our income by more than 1/2 and applying a lot of our savings to tuition and education costs. Something we can afford to do because we saved and because we don't mind living on a shoestring. Maybe a very thick shoestring (I feel extraordinarily comfortable compared to my past), but still a shoestring. I wouldn't say that we are an anomaly in the homeschooling community.

 

I am a pretty talented writer. When I worked and even now (on occasional contract) my earnings where mostly gleaned from writing. Is writing grants, fundraising letters and marketing materials my passion? No. But it earned me a paycheck and it funded the causes that I am passionate about. I also write poetry and short stories. Even for writers, poetry and short stories are, um, not where many of the very limited dollars in publishing are to be earned. When I was in high school, I studied poetry as a stand alone subject (our English teacher was a very serious and talented poet) not 1 year but 4 years. I still managed to earn my diploma.

 

I really think that you are missing the mark by a mile or three here.

[Arcadia]

 

lastly, when did neurotypical enter the discussion?

 

 

I would not expect my late cousin with down syndrome to be able to pass the high school exams regardless how much effort he put in. He went to a great vocational school instead and was happy there. That was why I put neurotypical in my reply (no ulterior motive or hidden meaning).

CDC states that the number of babies born with Down Syndrome is about 6,000 each year.

 

Looking at the number of talented players that Carnegie Hall picks each year for their National Youth Orchestra, I would say it would be prudent for a talented musician teenager to have a backup plan.

"Each summer, Carnegie Hall’s Weill Music Institute brings together 120 of the brightest young players from across the country to form the National Youth Orchestra of the United States of America" (Source)

 

 

 

We are a single income family in a one bedroom unit, no cable tv, no landline, no smartphones, one car, one television. When we had no internet, we walked to McDonalds to use their free wi-fi and read the news there.

[Free]

While I agree that "life is not about finding a job, but about finding your calling", the reality for most people, unless they are independently wealthy, is that they will need a source of income to support themselves and their families, and that would typically be a JOB.

I find the bolded advice very sensible. If the student has a musical talent and passion, using this gift to support herself seems a very good idea. And lets face it: most pianists do not end up as the world renowned concert pianist, but WILL end up teaching music to make a living. So, while the young lady should definitely work towards her goal as a musician, she would be well advised to remain realistic and keep in mind that very few musicians will be able to have this dream career.

I agree with the quoted poster in that I consider completing a high school education as non-negotiable. None of this means that the girl is discouraged from following her passion, but the adult's job is to temper the teenage enthusiasm with some practical sense.

I would always strive to channel the passion and gift in such a way that it also supports the student; if this seems unlikely (as in my children's wish to become famous authors), I find it important that the student's education does not close doors. Not having a high school diploma closes a lot of doors.

Advising a student to just "follow her dreams" without giving any thought to the practical aspect of supporting herself would seem irresponsible to me.

 

I do not have time to watch the video now because I have to go to my job that I happen to be passionate about and that I might consider a "calling", but that also helps me pay the bills.

 

 

 

I love your post Regentrude. This is something I have been thinking about lately. I have believed for a long time that true joy came from following one's passion, but lately I have come to think that such an advice is alright for people who from an early age show a strong area of talent, but for the vast majority it is not practical advice.

 

I especially like Cal Newport's take on the idea of passion. Linking a few of his articles and blog posts for those interested in a different take on following one's passion.

 

Follow a Career Passion? Let It Follow You

Louis C. K. on Career Capital

 

In Choosing a Job: Don’t Ask “What Are You Good At?â€, Ask Instead “What Are You Willing to Get Good At?â€

[regentrude]

I think you will find that, by and large, a Public High School education is a "technical" education. Opposed to say a Julliard, for example.

 

I hope you are aware that Julliard requires a high school diploma for admission, NOT just raw musical talent. And they explicitly counsel against getting a GED as a shortcut.

The people in charge of training the future world class musicians may have reasons to consider a comprehensive education important.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I second reading Cal Newports articles or book ("So Good They Can't Ignore You") on the subject.

 

As much as I disagreed with the extremeness of Amy Chua, the Tiger Mom, I think she is on to something with her belief that we like the things we are good at. We think we are good at what we like, but it goes the other way, too. I didn't like playing basketball in gym class in high school, but after Tigger played it and I learned more of the rules (as well as a few strategies for better playing), I found it much more fun.

[cavscout96]

Clearly I'm in the minority on this one.

 

@ Katie I may have made some assumptions, true, but I do not think they are off the mark for the majority of the US. One of the recent rebuttals I've rec'd for HS boils down to "How can you afford to have one parent stay home, think of all the cost and add in lost earnings." My response was, I don;t have (or need) a new truck every 5 years like many (most?) so while your situation as well as Arcadia's are outside my description, I think I'm safe in my assumption that a majority of Americans are NOT willing to make the same sacrifices you have chosen.

 

No personal offense meant to any who've contributed. I appreciate your input, a little surprised, to be honest. Don't take my position as dismissive of education. I never stated the young lady in question should give up her education altogether. I'm just considering how our society defines what is valued in education (maths and science over art for instance).

 

I guess I'm just wondering who are the 20th/21st century Shakespeares/Rembrandts/Beethovens are, or from where they will spring.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Clearly I'm in the minority on this one.

 

@ Katie I may have made some assumptions, true, but I do not think they are off the mark for the majority of the US. One of the recent rebuttals I've rec'd for HS boils down to "How can you afford to have one parent stay home, think of all the cost and add in lost earnings." My response was, I don;t have (or need) a new truck every 5 years like many (most?) so while your situation as well as Arcadia's are outside my description

 

The median household income in the US is only about $51,000, down about 7% in the last six years. That means half of all households earn less than this, even if both adults work. Many families can't afford to have a parent stay home full time. While I agree that many families spend far too much on cars, even without the new trucks, they still couldn't afford to have someone stay home. Have you seen the many discussions on this forum about health insurance costs? That alone keeps many people working that might otherwise work PT or quit.

 

If you really want to know why you are in minority on this, it's because most board members have friends or families that have suffered because of job loss, underemployment, medical bills, or other expenses not always under their control.

 

One of the families we are friends with is under the poverty line because our area is flooded with illegal immigrants willing to do the same work he does (self-employed) for $8-10 an hour. His wife, as far as I know, has never worked, because "women should stay home." The kids are all grown, so while she has time to work now, she has serious health problems and can't. They have no savings and have had to heavily rely on handouts from family, friends, and their church to keep a roof over their heads. If she had been trained for a career and worked PT over the years, they would be in a much better position. Instead, he will have to work until he's dead, leaving her without any income.

 

I'm sure many people posting in this thread know families like this.

 

There are two sayings that apply here: "Two is one, and one is none." "It's better to have it, and not need it, than to need it and not have it."

[JumpyTheFrog]

Another thing, "callings" do not have to be done full-time. For the sake of argument, if God gives everyone a calling, I think he realizes that people need to work to support their families, too.

 

And while yes, people could work less, just enough to pay the bills, what happens when they have no savings for medical bills, unemployment, braces, college tuition, car repairs, a leaky roof, retirement, etc? Whenever there is a predicted natural disaster, such as a hurricane, there are always people on TV whining about how they don't have any food or water. And the audience is thinking, "You knew for a week the hurricane was coming! Why didn't you leave or stock up on food and water?"

 

People know for years or decades that retirement, house repairs, college tuition, weddings, car repairs, etc are coming. We should be encouraging our nation to do a better job saving for these things. We don't need more people running around, broke, because they didn't have a back-up plan in case their "calling" didn't work out. People need to learn to start with supporting themselves, and then do the calling on the side. If it grows enough to be the sole source of income, great! If not, at least their kids won't starve.

[cavscout96]

@ HTT

 

No, I have not read about health insurance on the board. Would not have come here looking for a discussion on that topic. You do post some interesting facts though regarding median income. How are those numbers derived? What is considered a "household?" 10/hr truly will not go far with rising fuel and food costs, so I can see where your friend is struggling.

 

 

@all not looking to turn this into a political discussion. again just wondering how we decide the relative value of subjects studied

[Arcadia]

@ HTT

No, I have not read about health insurance on the board. Would not have come here looking for a discussion on that topic. You do post some interesting facts though regarding median income. How are those numbers derived? What is considered a "household?"

 

 

"Household income: Includes income of the householder and all other people 15 years and older in the household, whether or not they are related to the householder." (from US Census Bureau)

 

You can get the data breakdown by states here

Household Income for States: 2010 and 2011

[JumpyTheFrog]

In the health insurance threads, many people have shared that they have to pay $700-1200 per month for insurance that often still has high deductibles. That's about $8-10,000, after tax, just for the premiums. If their household income is $55,000, would you suggest the wife quit her $25,000 job to stay home, leaving them with $30,000 in income, with 1/4-1/3 being taken up just by health insurance?

 

Most households would be either married couple (with or without children) or single-parent households. The median income per worker is $26,000, meaning half of all workers earn less than $26,000 per year. So most dual income households are not rolling in money. If both parents have bachelor degrees (not a very high percent of households), the median household income is $80,000, which while it seems like a lot, isn't after tax. (A household with $80k in income will generally pay much more in taxes than one with $50k).

[JumpyTheFrog]

Wages have been stagnant (adjusted for inflation) in many industries for years, or even decades. Jobs are being automated or outsourced to China and India. Even lawyers and accountants are starting to have their jobs shipped overseas. While some of the jobs may eventually move back here, and new industries will develop, there is a lot of instability for most careers. It's not the time for people to assume they will stay employed constantly for decades.

 

Families where both parents have the education and training to work (even if one generally stays home with the kids) are in a better position to survive than families assuming that the husband will always be able to earn a good wage. The number of families living paycheck to paycheck is really high.

[TracyP]

My whole childhood I was taught that it is important to love what you do. One my brothers works in an iron ore mine so he can afford to follow his dream: farming. As a stay at home mom (with an electrician husband who absolutely loves his job), I feel blessed to be able to follow my calling. My bro and I know that we are bucking the norm, so we call each other on our "dumb" phones and laugh about it. We have rejected the standard American idea of success and we are proud of it. :)

 

So, I could almost agree with you, but when I read this:

 

=

@Tibbie earning one's bread and butter, so to speak, does not take much education. earning steak and cavier is a different story.

 

I completely disagree. You will not get a job w/o a high school diploma. My MIL is looking for employment and has no hs diploma. She has been turned away instantly at every single place she has applied. These are gas station/ fast food/ minimum wage jobs. In today's economy it is a simple way to weed out applicants.

 

Even with a hs diploma you will likely not make more than minimum wage. That means making less than 15,000 a year. How do you pay rent, utilities, buy food, or gas at 15K? You would be unable to cover the most basic of living expenses - not even "bread and butter" - at that rate.

 

You wondered where the next Michelangelo, et al. will come from. This has been said already, but they often weren't seen as greats at the time. There will be greats that come out of our time, but we probably won't live to be aware of it. They are out there and they are following their passions, but they are also getting a high school diploma... at a bare minimum.

[cavscout96]

Median income at 26k. That is the number I was looking for. Wow, surprising.

 

--------------------

But again, I wasn;t writing about quitting jobs or never finishing school. I'm asking how we determine the relative value of diffferent studies. an MORE importantly why can't your calling be your job?

 

If your calling is to be a teacher, fine study and become a teacher. A nuclear physicist, same. Dr., attorney, architect, whatever. But why dissuade a child or young adult away from something they excell at for a more "practical" subjetc of study? Do we truly not "need" the arts and humanities?

--------------------

[JumpyTheFrog]

I think learning to work hard, whether at school or a career, is one of the most important things to emphasize to and teach our kids. Someone once said, "The harder I work, the luckier I get." Also, "Chance favors the prepared mind."

 

Letting a student have a sub-par education, because they don't feel like it, is not helping them get good habits. I think most people here would support re-arranging the requirements to fit the passion for music better, but not just dropping most subjects completely. For example, perhaps music history could be the spine/theme of a history course, but major events and people would still need to be covered. Maybe science could be sure to cover how instruments work, but not at the expense of biology.

[cavscout96]

My whole childhood I was taught that it is important to love what you do. One my brothers works in an iron ore mine so he can afford to follow his dream: farming. As a stay at home mom (with an electrician husband who absolutely loves his job), I feel blessed to be able to follow my calling. My bro and I know that we are bucking the norm, so we call each other on our "dumb" phones and laugh about it. We have rejected the standard American idea of success and we are proud of it. :)

 

So, I could almost agree with you, but when I read this:

 

 

I completely disagree. You will not get a job w/o a high school diploma. My MIL is looking for employment and has no hs diploma. She has been turned away instantly at every single place she has applied. These are gas station/ fast food/ minimum wage jobs. In today's economy it is a simple way to weed out applicants.

 

Even with a hs diploma you will likely not make more than minimum wage. That means making less than 15,000 a year. How do you pay rent, utilities, buy food, or gas at 15K? You would be unable to cover the most basic of living expenses - not even "bread and butter" - at that rate.

 

You wondered where the next Michelangelo, et al. will come from. This has been said already, but they often weren't seen as greats at the time. There will be greats that come out of our time, but we probably won't live to be aware of it. They are out there and they are following their passions, but they are also getting a high school diploma... at a bare minimum.

 

 

- for clarification I said it ddn't take "much" education; and I never said one should NOT get a HS diploma; others inferred it, but it was never my line of logic

 

- I hope you are right about the last part, but I am skeptical. Many young adults (20s and some 30s) I know would rather text a person than talk to the ones sitting right next to them. I think technology is putting our appreciation for the arts and social interaction at risk. (Yes, I have a computer, tablet and phone, but they are tools not shackles)

 

- cool that your brother is farming. My Father is about ot retire after 20 years of military service and 25 years in teh civilian workforce. All he wants to do is go back to his roots, farming and hunting. Pretty cool that his almost "arrived. :)

[JumpyTheFrog]

But again, I wasn;t writing about quitting jobs or never finishing school. I'm asking how we determine the relative value of diffferent studies. an MORE importantly why can't your calling be your job?

 

If your calling is to be a teacher, fine study and become a teacher. A nuclear physicist, same. Dr., attorney, architect, whatever. But why dissuade a child or young adult away from something they excell at for a more "practical" subjetc of study? Do we truly not "need" the arts and humanities?

 

 

Ahhh...okay it seems like you mean for this discussion to be slightly different than what we were all thinking. From your initial post, it sounded like you were ignoring the reality of people needing jobs/careers. It came across like, "Careers are for suckers. Real people have callings and don't have to earn money."

 

Does the girl excel at music? I was under the impression that she loved it, not that she was necessarily any good at it.

 

The basic problem is economics. Supply and demand. The supply of people willing to work in music (and many of the humanities) is much bigger than the demand for their services. No matter how unfair it seems, we can't change that. The reason people promote getting "practical" careers is because it's much easier to stay employed with them. Often initial passions are going to have to be part-time for people. Hopefully they can train and be employed in a somewhat related field (or a different field completely) and develop a passion for it in time. Or start working on the side in the initial passion, only increasing to full-time if there is enough business to support quitting their day job.

 

There's nothing wrong with having a day job to support a passion.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I have to go do some practical work now. I have these kids that demand food several times per day. Can't they see my passion reading this forum? :laugh:

[cavscout96]

@ HTT

 

like your last post, and very much what I was driving at. Not a complete abandonment of education, but a focus on a natural talent and inclination. Not sure the long term application of biology study, but maybe botany or horticulture, ect depending (a life science for sure, but maybe a deeper dive into something more "practical" to use a term I've been trying to avoid ;) ) I mean do I really need to know about mitochondria and rhibosomes? Photosynthesis on teh other hand....