Are early readers really THAT unusual outside the homeschool realm?

[Donna]

Where I live, it is on the unusual side to have a child reading well before K. Even the expensive private PreK to 8th grade school I sent my oldest to for PreK was teaching letters and sounds to the kids but was not equipped to differentiate for a reader (disappointing since their "we teach every child to their ability" mantra was what made me send him there in the first place). Ds was reading well (2nd-3rd grade level) at 4yo and they were willing to take him into K early (he has a late birthday) but since none of the same kids were reading in preK I figured he'd still not be a good fit...this is why I started homeschooling in the first place.

 

I think what is normal depends on where you live.

[Paige]

In my unscientific anecdotal research, I'd say 10% of kids are reading at about a 2nd/3rd grade level (mostly fluently) by the start of kindergarten. There has always been at least a couple in every K class, playgroup, or other assortment of children that we've been a part of. I think it is not the norm but not really unusual. I like the analogy to walking. Everyone knows some kids who started walking at 9months or earlier, but most kids don't.

 

What concerns me is when schools encourage those parents to skip a grade for early reading alone. There's so much more to academics than just reading and unless the child is accelerated in every subject, I think it's not a good idea to get super hyped up about early reading. My friends who grade skipped K frequently spend the year complaining about the work load in 1st that requires so much sitting still, writing output, and sometimes just such a long day with shorter rest periods and less bathroom breaks. I'm thinking of two of my close friends in particular whose children were very early readers and the principal ok'd skipping because the teacher "had never seen such an early reader." They had rough 1st grade years. And I wonder, how come these teachers have never seen a kid entering K reading at a 2nd or 3rd or even 6th grade level when they teach at schools in my community, and I personally, with a smaller circle of friends, know several in the past few years alone?

[Paige]

 

I don't know that a lot of schools do this though. The few people I've met who had a child skip a grade had to fight tooth and nail for the skip. Granted, my experiences are completely anecdotal, but I don't get the impression schools do this easily.

 

That's what I hear on here, but in my circle of friends, the advanced early readers have all been offered grade skipping. We must have a pro skipping superintendent because it's not just one school.

 

But, you know what doesn't happen? Very early advanced math students who are average readers don't get offered grade skipping and don't get accommodated at all. My DS was doing 3rd grade math at the start of K and didn't learn a thing new until I pulled him out after 2nd grade. It's like all they care about is reading in early grades and then they complain that Americans aren't very good in math.

[Greenmama2]

 

But, you know what doesn't happen? Very early advanced math students who are average readers don't get offered grade skipping and don't get accommodated at all. My DS was doing 3rd grade math at the start of K and didn't learn a thing new until I pulled him out after 2nd grade. It's like all they care about is reading in early grades and then they complain that Americans aren't very good in math.

 

I think it's the same here. I know of very few children who have been grade skipped here in my country, but they are all advanced in LA. The mathematically advanced, average readers usually receive no and occasionally sporadic differentiation from what I can tell. They certainly aren't skipped ahead.

[The Governess]

My dd was reading fluently in preschool - and by fluent I mean at a fourth grade level with perfect pacing and expression. Her teacher told me she usually has one student in her class who is reading by the end of the year (this was a non-academic preschool) every year, but that my dd's fluency was rare. This was in a fairly affluent area.

 

I have taught in a co-op setting and have noticed that my students who read fluently early are also gifted in grammar. They have turned out to be naturals at punctuation and sentence diagramming. My dd has excelled at grammar and foreign language. Nearly all of these students are also accelerated in math - I think students who read phonetically with little instruction are good code-breakers and perhaps this explains the math link. I'm sure this isn't true across the board, but it's something I've observed over the past couple years with my group.

[mytwomonkeys]

I think the advantage that early readers have (as long as they keep reading) is that by age 9 while both children may be reading well, the child who started earlier will have taken in far more (quantity-wise) than the child who only reached that stage at age 9 - and because of that their spelling and punctuation will, in general, (everything has exceptions) be better. It is also likely that children who read early have been read to a lot more than children who read later (again there are exceptions to this) which again places them at an advantage as far as hearing good writing which implies that writing itself should be easier for these children (this is after all the basis of WWE - copy good writing to learn good writing).

 

My second child initially was slower than my first to pick up on vocabulary and letter sounds and other things and I wondered if having less one-on-one attention was affecting things. However more recently she has been moving ahead faster than her sister was at the same age and I have wondered if it is all the stories she has heard when I read them to her older sister and all the times she has seen her older sister reading to me and by herself. I have no idea about younger sibling issues yet, but I do think they are affected in a positive way by having their older siblings around so much - something that homeschooled children are lucky to have.

 

 

i'm not sure if quantity is an advantage because many early readers (ages 3-5 for the purpose of this thread) are more advanced than their own reading comprehension level for quite a few years (generally speaking). we have read aloud to our children since they were small & the exposure they have had to literature far surpassed their own reading comprehension. even though they both can read anything independently now, we still do read alouds as part of our school day daily. we love it. :)

 

but i also may be defining reading differently here than others. when my kids were reading bob books in kindergarten, i didn't consider that reading. it was the decoding stage of learning to read. leveled books that have controlled words are a stage in learning to read, but i didn't consider my child as reading quite yet.

 

by 8 years old though, my kids could read well & comprehend well. i no longer looked at reading levels, but i focused more on content and interest. my son spells beautifully (although writing isn't a love for him). while my daughter writes beautifully (spelling isn't always her friend though).

 

anyway. i just think a child reading percy jackson at age 7/8 or 9/10 is irrelevant and one has no huge advantage over the other.

[RootAnn]

In our area, it is unusual to be a solid, fluent reader going into K. I knew of two who are the same age as my dd#2. Both started out in public school. One was homeschooled by Christmas of the K year. One had a supportive school & teacher environment & the parents held on until Thanksgiving of his 2nd grade year (very combative teacher). Now, he's homeschooled too.

 

I rarely know what reading level my fellow homeschooler's kids are at because we don't make a big deal about age/grades (so heck if I know how old that kid is). My older two were late readers no matter how much effort I put into it. (I liken it to potty training. I can try & try & try, but they won't train until they are ready. You just have to make sure there aren't any physical problems that are keeping them from success.)

[beaners]

I was going to post that I have no idea, but I remembered that we had a babysitter when my youngest was born. My daughter had just turned 5 and would have been entering kindergarten that month. The babysitter had been an elementary teacher in California and subbed in Ohio, and was so astonished by my daughter's reading that she mentioned it to the owner of the nanny service in addition to my husband. When she had just told my husband, I figured she was blowing smoke. Who isn't pleased to hear their little cherub is brilliant, you know? ;) I gave it more credit when it came back to us secondhand from the owner.

 

I was surprised, but I don't have much to compare to.

[jennynd]

That's what I hear on here, but in my circle of friends, the advanced early readers have all been offered grade skipping. We must have a pro skipping superintendent because it's not just one school.

 

But, you know what doesn't happen? Very early advanced math students who are average readers don't get offered grade skipping and don't get accommodated at all. My DS was doing 3rd grade math at the start of K and didn't learn a thing new until I pulled him out after 2nd grade. It's like all they care about is reading in early grades and then they complain that Americans aren't very good in math.

 

 

 

when my DD got offered grade skip. The tested her math, reading spelling and Cognitive abilities by school pyscologist. She aslo wanted to do a classroom observation for the social skill. But the jerk in my DD's current school won't let her.. So, here in NY .. at least my area, they do try to make sure the kid is able to do it academically and socially.

It is unfortunately that for kids who are really really bright like yours. One grade skip might not enough academically and no school will do more than 1 grade skip at this young age. (I don't think they should) So, frankly, I really don't see a point to skip or not for a kid working on 3rd grade material in Kindergarten. He/She still gonna get bored. For my DS, the solution is afterschool by me since I can't afford homeschool (and I really can't teach writting, grammer.. those stuff) . He is having fun with his peers and is definitely a leader among his friends

[jennynd]

 

This is definitely true! Here they don't even offer algebra until high school. I imagine there are several students who could be ready in middle school. It's just not an option though.

 

 

I am really surprised how districts are so different even we both are in NY. Our district offers up to geometry in middle school. they can start algebra at 7th grade

[mathnerd]

Around here, not unusual at all - the "highly reputed" preschool that my child went to was teaching phonics and spelling at 4. In my area, all kids go to preschools, and most are really good and are full day programs (because of both parents working). So, most kids in preschool know to read, write, perform science experiments and do addition and subtraction when they enter kindergarten. Also, the same working parents put their children in afterschool care programs that also teach academics - so in my experience the local kids I see are well accomplished. That being said, when a teacher pulls you out and makes such a remark, it means that she is seeing something in your kid worth mentioning and I am sure she suspects that he is gifted. I would get him assessed for giftedness if I were you (the easiest way for doing this for me was to go to the very expensive and top rated private school in my county and fill out an application for K admission - a psychologist administered IQ test is part of the admission process and is included in the admission testing fee). Now we have a better idea of DS's strengths and how to help him.

Good luck.

[bluemongoose]

I don't think it is uncommon for a child to be reading some, as in early reader type books. It is more uncommon for them to be able to read fluently. I have had both. My DD started reading at 2.5 yo which was very early. By kindergarten age she was pretty much able to read whatever she chose (picture or chapter books). My son is 6 and he is still reading reader type books, but the "more advanced" readers (meaning not "Mat sat" type, but with vowel teams and silent e's and the like). My other son is 4 and he is in middle level readers. My youngest son is 15 months and he is reading frog and toad! (just kidding :tongue_smilie:) It has just been all over the place with my kids, and I think that is fairly normal. I would expect that they see both ends of the spectrum in PS as well.

[Paige]

It is unfortunately that for kids who are really really bright like yours. One grade skip might not enough academically and no school will do more than 1 grade skip at this young age. (I don't think they should) So, frankly, I really don't see a point to skip or not for a kid working on 3rd grade material in Kindergarten. He/She still gonna get bored. For my DS, the solution is afterschool by me since I can't afford homeschool (and I really can't teach writting, grammer.. those stuff) . He is having fun with his peers and is definitely a leader among his friends

 

Yes, I didn't want a grade skip. DS was an advanced reader but not that far ahead, and he was a poor writer, and mostly he was a happy, wiggly kid who loved kindergarten crafts, songs, and fun. He loved K and would not have done well with a grade skip. I wish there was more of a chance for kids to be accommodated in their own grades.

[ondreeuh]

This question is like one that asks,"My child was walking well at nine months. Is that normal?" Of course it's normal--for that child. But it's also normal for Suzy Q's daughter to not be walking until 15 months. It's totally developmental, and we all know that little ones learn to walk when they are ready. Reading is similar--most kids who are given the right skill base will read when they are developmentally ready. Some don't even need the basic skills and will just read, seemingly hard-wired to figure reading out at a young age. Others have issues like processing delays or dyslexia, and will take much longer and struggle much more with the process.

 

So yes, it's normal for some kids, no matter how they are schooled, to be reading well at a young age. But I don't think that the push toward early reading in the schools is doing anybody any favors. Kids who are ready to read, will. Kids who are not will just be frustrated by expectations for which they are not developmentally ready.

 

But that is not at all what I said. You mischaracterized my question. I didn't ask whether it was normal - of course it is. I asked if it was usual, or common. That's very, very different. I am concerned about my son's placement in kindergarten (if we went that route) and whether most kindergarten teacher could accommodate a reader.

 

I have no judgment towards kids who aren't reading in kindergarten - I am definitely aware that readiness is developmental.

[ondreeuh]

Around here, not unusual at all - the "highly reputed" preschool that my child went to was teaching phonics and spelling at 4. In my area, all kids go to preschools, and most are really good and are full day programs (because of both parents working). So, most kids in preschool know to read, write, perform science experiments and do addition and subtraction when they enter kindergarten. Also, the same working parents put their children in afterschool care programs that also teach academics - so in my experience the local kids I see are well accomplished. That being said, when a teacher pulls you out and makes such a remark, it means that she is seeing something in your kid worth mentioning and I am sure she suspects that he is gifted. I would get him assessed for giftedness if I were you (the easiest way for doing this for me was to go to the very expensive and top rated private school in my county and fill out an application for K admission - a psychologist administered IQ test is part of the admission process and is included in the admission testing fee). Now we have a better idea of DS's strengths and how to help him.

Good luck.

 

That's very interesting. I love how you found a way to get your kid tested. I don't think a test for giftedness would really be accurate with my kid because of his short attention span (due to ADHD). I checked the district's policies, and they don't accept referrals for TAG until 2nd grade. It wouldn't matter to me if K was a half-day, because then I would have enough time to do my own stuff with him. I asked the principal about whether my son could attend just for specials, and she is going to get back to me when she finds out.

[Pawz4me]

Around here AFAIK the public schools won't do much of any type of testing, either for giftedness or learning differences, until around third grade. They say up until then there's such a wide range of normal that testing isn't very accurate. I don't know with certainty if that's true or not, and waiting to test would definitely be a concern for me if I thought my child had a learning issue. But I did notice that many of my sons' classmates "caught up" to them around third grade. My oldest, who'd always been one of--if not the--most advanced student in his class, even commented one day in third grade that school wasn't so much fun anymore. I asked him why, and he said because other kids were beginning to know things that he used to be the only one to know. Then he was homeschooled for four years before going back to public high school, and was rather amazed at how many kids who'd been average or slow in the younger elementary grades were by then near the top of the class. Long way of saying . . . . I wouldn't put too much stock in giftedness testing for a kindergartner or be in a big hurry to slap a "gifted" label on a child. There is a VERY wide range of normal in the younger school years.

[Arcadia]

one group that cracked the code on their own and reads anything they care to read now that they have access to a library on a daily basis but may not have endurance for small print

The large print collection in the library is helpful for that, They have both fiction and non-fiction in large print.

Around here AFAIK the public schools won't do much of any type of testing, either for giftedness or learning differences, until around third grade.

Here LD testing by the school district can be requested once the child is 3 years old. The testing for the GATE program is done at 3rd grade.

[RootAnn]

When they check to see if your kid is grade-skippable here, I've heard they do an IQ test.

 

Each Kindergarten classroom at the local school has a 'reading group' - and they break up the kids from all the K classrooms into those specific reading groups when it is time for that subject. (There are three to four classrooms depending on the number of incoming kids.) I don't know what level of reading the "high" reading group is, though.

 

The 'solution' given to one of my friends was to grade skip her son to First Grade and then send him at reading time in with the 'remedial reading' group for 2nd or 3rd grade. :blink: She didn't care for that type of 'differentiated' learning.

[jennynd]

 

 

It is all up to the local district, except that there is a NY state law that says there must be accelerated classes offered to 8th graders. Note there is no law that says these 8th graders must be offered the appropriate material at school in prior years to qualify them to take these classes. So, it is entirely possible that in some districts, R. I. Algebra 1 or higher is offered, but no 8th grader is eligible to sign up. There is also no law to say that the district must provide transportation during the day to the high school for middle schoolers whose middle school doesn't offer the course they qualify for.Algebra in 7th seems to be offered in the middle schools in techie areas...Niskayuna, Arlington, etc.

 

See http://www.p12.nysed...ages/1004.html:

 

Grade eight acceleration for diploma credit.

1. Public school students in grade eight shall have the opportunity to take high school courses in mathematics and in at least one of the following areas: English, social studies, languages other than English, art, music, career and technical education subjects or science courses.

 

2. Credit may be awarded for an accelerated course only when at least one of the following conditions has been met:

1. accelerated students attend classes in a high school with high school students and pass the course on the same basis as the high school students. Credit is awarded by the high school; or

    

2. the student passes the course and the associated State proficiency examination or Regents examination, when available. The credit must be accepted as a transfer credit by all registered New York State high schools; or

    

3. in cases where no appropriate state assessment is available, the student passes a course in the middle, junior high or intermediate school that has been approved for high school credit by the public school district superintendent(s), or his or her designee(s), of the district(s) where the middle, junior high or intermediate school and the high school are located.

 

 

 

Yep, niskayuna is right beside my school district. I thought ours run very similar to niskayuna so I assume all are similar.. I made a mistake, our middle schooler are allowed to take up to algebra2/trig. But the high school literally is cross the street from middle school.

[ondreeuh]

When they check to see if your kid is grade-skippable here, I've heard they do an IQ test.

 

Each Kindergarten classroom at the local school has a 'reading group' - and they break up the kids from all the K classrooms into those specific reading groups when it is time for that subject. (There are three to four classrooms depending on the number of incoming kids.) I don't know what level of reading the "high" reading group is, though.

 

The 'solution' given to one of my friends was to grade skip her son to First Grade and then send him at reading time in with the 'remedial reading' group for 2nd or 3rd grade. :blink: She didn't care for that type of 'differentiated' learning.

 

 

I was accelerated on and off when I was a kid. My mom thought I should skip first grade, and they did an IQ test which gave me an obscenely high IQ score (which I absolutely do NOT believe is accurate!). Despite that, they said I wasn't mature enough to skip so they moved me up to 2nd grade for reading and math only. Then I stayed with my peers until 5th grade, when I was moved up to 6th grade for math. At the end of 5th, I got the highest score on some math placement test so for 6th grade I was sent to the junior high but put in remedial 7th grade math (visual math - lots of work drawing cube figures from different angles) while the 6th graders from the other elementary school were put in Pre-Algebra. The next year (7th) we accelerated students were all put in Algebra. The kids who actually had Pre-Algebra did fine, but I had a huge learning curve. I still remember in 8th grade (when I went to the high school for geometry) when I was told that I wasn't getting math out of the way early, I was just going to have to take more math than my friends. I thought that was a huge rip-off! So I thumbed my nose at that and after I took pre-calc as a sophomore, I didn't take any more math until college.

 

Anyway, all that is to say that the school had no clear policy but just made things up as they went along. I can't believe my mom didn't fight for me.

[speedmom4]

My older dd was reading at that level by K. She has always been above the curve in most academics. I'm so thankful that I never sent her to school. She will be heading to college in the fall with a hefty academic and music scholarship.

 

Good luck!

 

Elise in NC

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

It is not unusual in my area for ps kids to be reading going into, or coming out of Kindergaten. Years ago when I was in K you learned colors, shapes, letters, numbers. No reading. I was reading before K.

 

Sadly though I could not color inside the lines with my fat blunt tipped crayons.

[SKL]

When I visited the preschool my kids would attend, I mentioned that my youngest was close to starting to read. The manager stated that lots of parents say their kids read, but rarely are the kids actually reading. As in, parents don't know what they are talking about. My kid could read short books (that she hadn't seen before) by her 4th birthday and progressed quickly after that. I waited for the teachers to notice, but it wasn't until she was close to 5 that anyone said anything to me. Not sure whether they just assume kids are memorizing, or they aren't observing, or the kids are just shy about reading in front of their class/teachers.

[SKL]

It is not unusual in my area for ps kids to be reading going into, or coming out of Kindergaten. Years ago when I was in K you learned colors, shapes, letters, numbers. No reading. I was reading before K.

 

Sadly though I could not color inside the lines with my fat blunt tipped crayons.

LOL. 41 years later, I can still remember my KG teacher telling me "you're scribbling!" because I changed directions as I colored.

[Paige]

When I visited the preschool my kids would attend, I mentioned that my youngest was close to starting to read. The manager stated that lots of parents say their kids read, but rarely are the kids actually reading. As in, parents don't know what they are talking about. My kid could read short books (that she hadn't seen before) by her 4th birthday and progressed quickly after that. I waited for the teachers to notice, but it wasn't until she was close to 5 that anyone said anything to me. Not sure whether they just assume kids are memorizing, or they aren't observing, or the kids are just shy about reading in front of their class/teachers.

 

That's a good point! I think a lot of times the teachers just don't know what the kids are capable of and assume everyone is at the expected level. If kids are shy they may not speak up and show off their skills and just go along with the class lesson. Or the teacher may confuse the kids with different ways of presenting info. I was reading in K and I didn't tell anyone. I just sat in class and followed the directions and did what I was told. The teacher sent my mom a note home saying that I should ask more questions because I never had any questions about anything in class. I didn't ask questions because I knew it all! My mom told me to make something up if I didn't have any real questions.

[SKL]

 

That's a good point! I think a lot of times the teachers just don't know what the kids are capable of and assume everyone is at the expected level. If kids are shy they may not speak up and show off their skills and just go along with the class lesson. Or the teacher may confuse the kids with different ways of presenting info. I was reading in K and I didn't tell anyone. I just sat in class and followed the directions and did what I was told. The teacher sent my mom a note home saying that I should ask more questions because I never had any questions about anything in class. I didn't ask questions because I knew it all! My mom told me to make something up if I didn't have any real questions.

 

You bring up an interesting point as well. I found my KG report card and was surprised to find that it wasn't all that glowing, though I was the most academically successful kid in class. There was a lot of stuff about me being too shy / not confident enough. Well, I am an introvert and I was extremely myopic (no glasses yet), so I probably wasn't outgoing, but I don't remember not being confident. Like you said, it was all easy. What's the point of participating in a discussion of ABC when your baby sister already knows that?

[beaners]

When I visited the preschool my kids would attend, I mentioned that my youngest was close to starting to read. The manager stated that lots of parents say their kids read, but rarely are the kids actually reading. As in, parents don't know what they are talking about. My kid could read short books (that she hadn't seen before) by her 4th birthday and progressed quickly after that. I waited for the teachers to notice, but it wasn't until she was close to 5 that anyone said anything to me. Not sure whether they just assume kids are memorizing, or they aren't observing, or the kids are just shy about reading in front of their class/teachers.

 

 

This reminds me of a time I was eating breakfast with my kids at a hotel. The lobby had a large tv on mute with closed captioning. My daughter was prattling away to me about whatever was on, and I was absentmindedly responding to her as I was trying to spread butter and cut fruit and keep sippy cups on the table. A woman came up and accusingly asked me if my daughter was actually reading the screen. "Uh, yeah. It looks like it," was the most intelligent response I could come up with.

[mom2att]

But that is not at all what I said. You mischaracterized my question. I didn't ask whether it was normal - of course it is. I asked if it was usual, or common. That's very, very different. I am concerned about my son's placement in kindergarten (if we went that route) and whether most kindergarten teacher could accommodate a reader.

 

 

My apologies for misunderstanding. I, too had an early reader. It was my main reason for homeschooling at the time. I had visited our district's magnet showcase, which was supposedly the best of the best. I got looked at like I had three heads when I asked how they accommodated children who had been reading well for a year. So we homeschooled instead. We just kept going at her level and pace. That was twelve years ago and kindergarten was much much different, even then.