Is patriotism a good thing?

[Amy in TX]

 

Yes, I appreciate what our military people do. Just as I appreciate the people who've chosen to be law enforcement officers, firefighters, EMTs, doctors and nurses and medical professionals of all sorts. All those people keep us safe. To revere the military to the extent I sometimes see happening in this country scares me a little. It smacks of some sort of totalitarian government. I can't help but think of North Korea when I see what (to me) is over-the-top military reverence or pressure to recite the Pledge or sing the national anthem at a public event. If we relish our freedom, then we should uphold the freedom to NOT do those things. Otherwise it's not really freedom at all.

 

How about mothers? We put our lives and our health on the line, and endure tremendous physical suffering, so that other people can live. Vicky Iovine has said that "we are the earth's real heroes." I never think of soldiers without thinking of mothers, too.

[SKL]

Because "patriotism" is a word that can be twisted into many things, I can't comment on whether it's a good or bad thing. Feeling proud of what one's country does right is good. Wanting one's country to be the best it can be, including improving where there's room for improvement, is good. Standing up to the haters who pinpoint one area of weakness (which may or may not even be factual) is good. Being willing to help protect the security of families and children in the USA is good. Supporting others who are this way about their own (other) country is good. If all of that is consistent with one's definition of "patriotism," then it's good.

[Embassy]

Not sure what you mean by the traditional sense, but I can tell you if I were Paul Revere's neighbor... I would have lit the dang lanterns for him! :D

 

 

By traditional sense - I mean nationalism.

[Embassy]

Can a citizen be patriotic if they believe all men (humans) are created equal or is it supposed to be that only all Americans are created equal?

[Amy in TX]

 

I've been thinking about this, and I do think there is something unique and nobler about American patriotism. The reason is because it isn't based on any kind of tribalism. "German" is an ethnicity. Ditto for "Mexican" or "Chinese" or what have you. But the U.S.A. is a land of immigrants and being an American is not about having a particular ethnicity, religion, etc. It's about an idea: freedom. Freedom to govern ourselves. Freedom of speech and assembly. Freedom to worship however we so choose or to not worship at all. Freedom to make a better life for ourselves and our children.

 

Maybe our society hasn't always lived up to our ideals but that doesn't mean that there isn't still something special about the U.S.A.

 

 

Many countries have constitutions guaranteeing all these freedoms, and many countries are ethnically and religiously diverse.

[Mergath]

 

I've been thinking about this, and I do think there is something unique and nobler about American patriotism. The reason is because it isn't based on any kind of tribalism. "German" is an ethnicity. Ditto for "Mexican" or "Chinese" or what have you. But the U.S.A. is a land of immigrants and being an American is not about having a particular ethnicity, religion, etc. It's about an idea: freedom. Freedom to govern ourselves. Freedom of speech and assembly. Freedom to worship however we so choose or to not worship at all. Freedom to make a better life for ourselves and our children.

 

Maybe our society hasn't always lived up to our ideals but that doesn't mean that there isn't still something special about the U.S.A.

 

 

Nothing more special than many other countries. I mean honestly, how many countries in Europe make it illegal to practice your own religion, assemble peacefully, speak, and don't have some form of democratic government? Not many that I've heard about. And while much of our population is descended from immigrants, we ourselves are, for the most part, culturally American and there are many countries in the world more ethnically diverse than we are.

 

If one wants to make the argument that the US is somehow better than every other country in the world, that's all well and good, but the argument should be based on fact, not stereotype.

[Laura Corin]

I've been thinking about this, and I do think there is something unique and nobler about American patriotism. The reason is because it isn't based on any kind of tribalism. "German" is an ethnicity. Ditto for "Mexican" or "Chinese" or what have you. But the U.S.A. is a land of immigrants and being an American is not about having a particular ethnicity, religion, etc. It's about an idea: freedom. Freedom to govern ourselves. Freedom of speech and assembly. Freedom to worship however we so choose or to not worship at all. Freedom to make a better life for ourselves and our children.

 

 

 

As others have mentioned, many other countries are ethnically diverse and offer the freedoms you mention.

 

I think that it's sometimes hard to realise that countries without foundational documents nonetheless have a national ethos. I think that if you were to ask Britons what the country stood for, the most likely answer might be 'fair play'. It's not - to my knowledge - explicitly written in any kind of legal document; it has developed over many centuries of the country's history. It is nonetheless central to Britons' self-image and forms the basis for social development.

 

ETA: as far as 'tribal' identity: the United Kingdom is in its very nature a blend of at least four 'tribes': Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The UK identity transcends all this, but this is no small achievement: refer to a Scottish person as 'English' and you will discover to what extent this is true.

 

Laura

[Mrs Mungo]

They may have more uniform quality schools, healthcare, etc. but our best schools, doctors & hospitals, etc. are far better.

 

 

Upon what do you base this belief? I have had babies in an American hospital and 2 German hospitals. I FAR preferred the German hospitals. They had much better facilities and practices, IMO. They are better statistically too. They have better outcomes and lower c-section rates.

[Mrs Mungo]

Nothing more special than many other countries. I mean honestly, how many countries in Europe make it illegal to practice your own religion, assemble peacefully, speak, and don't have some form of democratic government?

 

 

I have to disagree with this just a bit. Most countries do not have the same brand of freedom that we have in the US. Just as one example, printing Nazi propaganda could land you in jail in Germany. Many countries limit freedom of speech in ways that the US does not, for good or ill.

[regentrude]

Upon what do you base this belief? I have had babies in an American hospital and 2 German hospitals. I FAR preferred the German hospitals. They had much better facilities and practices, IMO. They are better statistically too. They have better outcomes and lower c-section rates.

 

 

yes.

The US ranks 50th globally in childbirth maternal deaths.

The maternal death rate in the US has doubled during the last 25 years.

But we spend the most money on health care. Something is very wrong with this picture.

[mytwomonkeys]

 

I've been thinking about this, and I do think there is something unique and nobler about American patriotism. The reason is because it isn't based on any kind of tribalism. "German" is an ethnicity. Ditto for "Mexican" or "Chinese" or what have you. But the U.S.A. is a land of immigrants and being an American is not about having a particular ethnicity, religion, etc. It's about an idea: freedom. Freedom to govern ourselves. Freedom of speech and assembly. Freedom to worship however we so choose or to not worship at all. Freedom to make a better life for ourselves and our children.

 

Maybe our society hasn't always lived up to our ideals but that doesn't mean that there isn't still something special about the U.S.A.

 

 

i thought this was a nice sentiment and well said :)

[Parrothead]

This is exactly the kind of response I was referring to in my first post: how is any progress ever going to happen if people who want to change the country for the better are accused of lack of patriotism and told to go elsewhere?

 

I do not have to agree with the government because this is a democracy, and the government is elected by the people. So, I can vote and use the political system to drive change.

I do not have to be happy about everything. I do not have to be happy that my uninsured sick friend can not afford to see a doctor. I do not have to be happy that incoming students from sub standard rural high schools enter college woefully unprepared. There are many things I am not happy about. And I can hope and work for change. I fail to see how wanting to improve one's country is unpatriotic.

Anybody who thinks every single thing about this country is perfect and nothing should ever be changed lives in a bubble that is very different from my daily reality.

 

The great strength of this country is that it is dynamic and change CAN happen.

 

 

I was not referring to those who use the system to improve the system. All to often I hear (not necessarily from this forum) how horrible it is to be an American. How awful it is to have to live in this country.

 

All I'm saying is if one does not like it, nobody is being forced to stay. If one isn't happy here one does not have to stay. Don't stay and b!tch and moan and complain. Help to bring improvement or leave.

[regentrude]

All I'm saying is if one does not like it, nobody is being forced to stay. If one isn't happy here one does not have to stay.

 

Actually, yes, they kind of have to - because in most countries you can't simply walk in and say "I want to live and work here". The countries who do are not typically the ones you'd want to be in.

[SKL]

Yes, I must say I have a low tolerance for "my country sucks," which I hear (in various versions) all too often. If there is something specific that you think can be done better, do something positive about it. If it's so hopeless that it's not worth your effort, move to a country you like better. And if you just have a chronic case of PMS, keep it to yourself. :/ ... I hear some folks from other countries say similar things and I feel the same way about them. Bunch of immature good-for-naughts. Every country I know of has something people can be proud of.

[Parrothead]

 

Actually, yes, they kind of have to - because in most countries you can't simply walk in and say "I want to live and work here". The countries who do are not typically the ones you'd want to be in.

 

 

then I suppose they have a goal to work toward.

[mytwomonkeys]

interesting thread. i read the whole thing and will add my 2 cents. i'm a 2nd generation american here, but feel very proud to be american (as i do of my welsh heritage). i consider myself patriotic in the sense that i love to sing the national anthem & find myself tearing up over it. i like to watch the olympics and i feel proud when america does well. when i see officers or military personnel, i feel grateful to them. i love the religious freedom i have here. i feel like my family has opportunities here in america that are not readily available in other places & for that i am grateful. i love the diversity of our country & the melting pot it has become. i have issues with our government & feel sad for parts of our history that built this country. i think patriotism overall, when balanced, is okay. for me, egocentrism is not synonymous with patriotism. but i suppose i lean more toward nationalism in my mindset anyway.

[Dicentra]

As others have mentioned, many other countries are ethnically diverse and offer the freedoms you mention.

 

I think that it's sometimes hard to realise that countries without foundational documents nonetheless have a national ethos. I think that if you were to ask Britons what the country stood for, the most likely answer might be 'fair play'. It's not - to my knowledge - explicitly written in any kind of legal document; it has developed over many centuries of the country's history. It is nonetheless central to Britons' self-image and forms the basis for social development.

 

ETA: as far as 'tribal' identity: the United Kingdom is in its very nature a blend of at least four 'tribes': Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The UK identity transcends all this, but this is no small achievement: refer to a Scottish person as 'English' and you will discover to what extent this is true.

 

Laura

 

 

:iagree:

 

I would think Canada would fit the bill as well. I always thought we stood for "peace". Lester B. Pearson, our 14th Prime Minister, was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1957 and is considered by many to be the father of modern peacekeeping. I'm pretty proud of that. :)

 

 

I don't think it's wrong to be proud of the good aspects of one's country and to lobby to change the not-so-good. But I'm wondering why, for some, it has to turn into a "my country is better than yours" argument. Isn't it possible to feel pride for one's country even if it isn't the acknowledged "best" at everything? Why the need to prove to everyone that it is the best? Do some feel that the pride isn't "deserved" unless that country is the best? Almost seems like saying to a loved one, "I'm only going to be proud of you if you're perfect and the best at everything!" Not a way of thinking that I understand, I guess.

[Dicentra]

i love the diversity of our country & the melting pot it has become.

 

 

Forgive me, mytwomonkeys - I don't mean to seem as though I'm singling you out but the above part of your post made me think of something...

 

I always thought that the concept of a "melting pot" country was sort of mutually exclusive with the idea of diversity. I remember learning two different terms - "melting pot" and "mosaic". A melting pot country certainly allows immigrants in but encourages them to assimilate with the mainstream culture of that country - hence a "melting pot" where all ingredients are melted together to become a uniform whole. A mosaic country encourages immigrants to come but also to maintain the culture of their country of origin - hence a "mosaic" where each tiny individual piece remains distinct but, overall, they all work together to create a larger picture.

 

Years ago in high school, I was taught that the US is a "melting pot" country and Canada is a "mosaic" country. I think that probably isn't so much true for either country anymore but I thought the idea that "melting pot" = "diversity" seemed a bit odd. But I could just be fussing over semantics. :D

[mytwomonkeys]

 

 

ETA: as far as 'tribal' identity: the United Kingdom is in its very nature a blend of at least four 'tribes': Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The UK identity transcends all this, but this is no small achievement: refer to a Scottish person as 'English' and you will discover to what extent this is true.

 

 

 

 

my family lives still in merthyr tydfil (in wales) and they would have a FIT if you referred to them as english. :) when i was in ireland, the sentiment was the same.

[mytwomonkeys]

 

Forgive me, mytwomonkeys - I don't mean to seem as though I'm singling you out but the above part of your post made me think of something...

 

I always thought that the concept of a "melting pot" country was sort of mutually exclusive with the idea of diversity. I remember learning two different terms - "melting pot" and "mosaic". A melting pot country certainly allows immigrants in but encourages them to assimilate with the mainstream culture of that country - hence a "melting pot" where all ingredients are melted together to become a uniform whole. A mosaic country encourages immigrants to come but also to maintain the culture of their country of origin - hence a "mosaic" where each tiny individual piece remains distinct but, overall, they all work together to create a larger picture.

 

Years ago in high school, I was taught that the US is a "melting pot" country and Canada is a "mosaic" country. I think that probably isn't so much true for either country anymore but I thought the idea that "melting pot" = "diversity" seemed a bit odd. But I could just be fussing over semantics. :D

 

 

 

well -- i do think of america as a melting pot here and i do think of it as diverse, lol. i'm sorry if that "verbage" isn't precise for you, but it is accurate in what i wanted to communicate. families have immigrated to america from all over the world, and each generation adopts customs, mannerisms, & traditions from other cultural influences and it seems lines blur and become less distinct. i love that about america! it is equally diverse & i'm sorry if that sounds like an oxymoron :). america is a rainbow of people from all walks of life, and we have the freedom to be diverse in our beliefs.

[Heidi]

I didn't read the whole thread, but when I pledge allegiance to the flag, to me that means I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States. It's not national pride that I feel. It is the universal truth that all men (whether American or not) are created equal, and the gratitude that our country recognizes and defends that idea.

[Rosie_0801]

 

Asking seriously- is this true? There's no subset of elites who are all into cultural relativism and who view loyalty to one's country as a bad thing?

 

 

Never pay any attention to Australians on the topic of patriotism. :p

 

 

I'm not aware of anyone who believes loyalty to our country is a bad thing. It's sort of a weird thing to think about, because of course people here are loyal to the country in some way. As a general rule, though, we don't think we are the best ever, kings of the globe because we obviously aren't. The exception there may be drunk people on Australia Day. ;)

[Dicentra]

 

 

well -- i do think of america as a melting pot here and i do think of it as diverse, lol. i'm sorry if that "verbage" isn't precise for you, but it is accurate in what i wanted to communicate. families have immigrated to america from all over the world, and each generation adopts customs, mannerisms, & traditions from other cultural influences and it seems lines blur and become less distinct. i love that about america! it is equally diverse & i'm sorry if that sounds like an oxymoron :). america is a rainbow of people from all walks of life, and we have the freedom to be diverse in our beliefs.

 

 

Sorry - no offense was intended! That's why I said it's possible I could just be fussing over semantics. :D My comments were just sort of a scholarly bunny-trail in my own mind. I just wondered if anyone else had come across the two terms and what others thought of how they both related to diversity. I appreciate your thoughts - I really do. :)

[Melissa in Australia]

 

Asking seriously- is this true? There's no subset of elites who are all into cultural relativism and who view loyalty to one's country as a bad thing?

 

 

I was sort of making a half harted joke.

 

Australians are not into patriotism really. And yes just about every Australian I have met thinks it is the best country in the world.

[Melissa in Australia]

I've been thinking about this, and I do think there is something unique and nobler about American patriotism. The reason is because it isn't based on any kind of tribalism. "German" is an ethnicity. Ditto for "Mexican" or "Chinese" or what have you. But the U.S.A. is a land of immigrants and being an American is not about having a particular ethnicity, religion, etc. It's about an idea: freedom. Freedom to govern ourselves. Freedom of speech and assembly. Freedom to worship however we so choose or to not worship at all. Freedom to make a better life for ourselves and our children.

 

Maybe our society hasn't always lived up to our ideals but that doesn't mean that there isn't still something special about the U.S.A.

 

 

Hate to rain on your parade but I think it is something like 70% of Australians were born in a different country. and we have all those freedoms that you just mentioned.



[Unicorn.]

 

By traditional sense - I mean nationalism.

 

 

 

In that case, no, not all. I find patriotism and nationalism to be very different.

 

Can a citizen be patriotic if they believe all men (humans) are created equal or is it supposed to be that only all Americans are created equal?

 

 

I consider all humans to be created equal, and I'm patriotic, so yes.

[mytwomonkeys]

Hate to rain on your parade but I think it is something like 70% of Australians were born in a different country. and we have all those freedoms that you just mentioned.



 

 

wow. that is a very high percentage! i had no idea!

 

ETA - i think 70% is wrong. that seems really high, so i looked it up & found a census from 2011 here. there may be other studies, but that's the most recent i could find.

[Melissa in Australia]

wow. that is a very high percentage! i had no idea!

 

ETA - i think 70% is wrong. that seems really high, so i looked it up & found a census from 2011 here. there may be other studies, but that's the most recent i could find.

 

 

You are right. I am wrong ( where did I come up with that figure :huh: )

one in four Australians are born overseas http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/02key.htm