S/O from the no cook meal thread

[Parrothead]

toawh said in her reply to my post about her dh cooking

 

... but I thought since he'll have all the kids too it might be easier if cooking was minimal. I don't own a crock pot.

 

 

This made me wonder something.

 

Why is it society expects women to be able to work 9-5 then come home clean, cook and mind the children while doing so but it it difficult for our men to do so. toawh probably on a regular basis minds the kids and cooks.

 

Why do we as a whole (not saying this is in anyone person's family so please don't take it that way) have so few expectations of our men? We complain about how television portrays men as idiots, yet we treat them as if cooking a meal for themselves is difficult and cooking a meal for their family is akin to being bedridden.

 

We want them to man up but treat them like imbeciles.

 

Oh, and while we are at it, why do men "babysit" their own children? I heard this the other day, "I'm babysitting the children for my wife."

 

What gives?

[Night Elf]

Women have always been seen as the nurturers, while men are the hunters. That attitude is hard to break considering it's been around for a very long time.

[Parrothead]

But that is still no reason to treat them as if they haven't a brain in their heads.

[Lily_Grace]

Well at the risk of sounding like a total b*tch I'd be very angry at my husband if he couldn't manage to take care of our children alone for two weeks (including cooking for them). It doesn't have to be fancy. He can do things his way. Heck, if that means eggs and toast or frozen dinners, whatever. My husband does not like to cook. I enjoy cooking. So yes I do the cooking. But if for whatever reason I could not be here for a period of time I have no doubt he would figure it out.

 

I would think my husband was an imbecile if he couldn't figure this out. Yep I would.

I'd agree wholeheartedly, but dh and I have always had an "after 5pm" arrangement. We each do a job during the day but at night it's 50/50. He cooks, I do dishes. He gives the bath, I tell the story. He folds laundry, I get the recycling out to the street. If he couldn't manage to be alone for 2 weeks we'd have serious problems. And I know that he'd probably eat off paper plates and find the shortest books to read to the 3yo, and that he probably wouldn't think to change the sheets until the day I got home... :laugh: but they'd manage just fine. Of course, in the reverse, the kids would be eating a lot of pasta and take-out if he was gone. :lol:

 

 

Now, riddle me this....why is it that historically chefs are usually men, but we treat them as imbeciles in the home kitchen and expect them to NOT understand how to make basic foods?

[justasque]

But that is still no reason to treat them as if they haven't a brain in their heads.

 

If dad has been doing the 9-5 gig, and mom has been home and doing most of the child care and cooking, she is getting more experienced while he is not. Thus, there can be a skill differential, which gets greater as time goes on. Back in the day I could have stepped in and done dh's 9-5 gig. Now that he has 20 years of experience under his belt, I can't.

 

Now, that's not to say it's impossible for a dh to do the kids/cooking job, but we should not dismiss the many years of experience a typical SAHM has, the skills she has gained, and the background knowledge she has.

 

Obviously, dh's will differ in the skills and talents they start with, and how much of an effort they make to keep them up despite the 9-5 gig. I'm not saying they are incapable, or they shouldn't try - in fact, quite the opposite. But a typical SAHM has spent many, many more hours on the job than a typical 9-5 dad, and she banks more experience every day. Don't minimize that.

[Koerarmoca]

My husband was a chef. After 20 years on his feet in hot kitchens he is working a desk job for the first time in his life. Now he likes to cook at home. When it was his "job" he hated "working at home" as he put it.

 

I am a women who expects very little from him. He walks the dog, changes the light bulbs, gets the items I need out of my reach, runs errands, takes out the trash, assists a little with schooling, cooks dinner atleast 1-2 times per week, and his socks always make it into the hamper.

 

I don't mind one bit taking care of the home. That is my job and chosen role.

 

Even when I did work part time last year I didn't mind, he works hard and I want him to come home to a clean home and dinner on the table. He might not always get it but I will always strive to make it happen.

[----]

.

[Koerarmoca]

I also meant to add, I know my husband could 100% hold down the fort with out me. He might do a pizza or fast food night to give himself a break. I might come home to a less than clean house but I will know that they had fun!

[Parrothead]

 

 

 

Now, riddle me this....why is it that historically chefs are usually men, but we treat them as imbeciles in the home kitchen and expect them to NOT understand how to make basic foods?

 

 

Exactly.

[Parrothead]

I also meant to add, I know my husband could 100% hold down the fort with out me. He might do a pizza or fast food night to give himself a break. I might come home to a less than clean house but I will know that they had fun!

 

 

Not to pick on you or your family, but this is what I'm getting at.

 

More often than not if the man has worked all day he is expected to put in a pizza and not keep up with the house and we make that okay. Why doesn't a woman, who has worked a full day no matter the type of work, expect the man to cook a decent meal and keep the house tidy when she has to go to an evening meeting or work over time?

 

If the roles were reversed we would expect the women to feed the kids a hot meal meal and have the house tidy and the dishes done before the man got home from his meeting or over time.

 

It isn't that the men don't have a brain or the physical stamina to cook and clean up. But it is okay that they do frozen pizza and leave the house a mess. Why?

[Mom-ninja.]

It isn't that the men don't have a brain or the physical stamina to cook and clean up. But it is okay that they do frozen pizza and leave the house a mess. Why?

 

Not in my house. My dh cooks often. He likes to.

 

I've come home to a messy house before and I was ticked.

 

I will say that my dh gets flustered when he has the kids without me. He literally can only focus on one thing at a time. He is horrible at multitasking. Horrible. This doesn't make him an imbecile. It makes him struggle with multitasking, and where kids are involved multitasking is a must.

 

He also doesn't have the ability to get up from bed and hit the ground running. He needs at least 2 cups of Joe before he can face life. :lol: That has nothing to do with being male though. I'm just not dependent on caffeine and he is.

 

None of that means he isn't alone with the kids often.

 

Both my mom and my mil have used the term "babysitting" when dh is alone with the kids. I've responded by saying, "He is their father. He is parenting not babysitting. I do not pay him to watch the kids." Both of them mumbled something about I should know what they mean and I said I didn't. I don't know why they think a father being with his children is like a babysitter. But then I also expected my dh to change diapers.....can you imagine?!

[bolt.]

I've worked less out of the house than my DH for about 15 years. That means that 'in fairness' I did more household tasks, most of the time. That makes me an experienced professional. It also means that this entire house, especially the kitchen, is organized to my liking according to how I work in it.

 

I also cook dinner, because dinner time is still a part of my full time parenting day. It's not 'after work' to me, or to my DH.

 

There are a LOT of things that are easy the 537th time that are hard the first 10 or 20 times around. Leaving an inexperienced person (of either gender) as full time solo parent is obviously going to be challenging for him/her. So, yeah, I'd expect a loving full-timer who was going to be absent to try and smooth things for the other person.

 

I'd be frustrated if I couldn't count on my dh's ability to parent reasonably well for a day or a weekend... And he's not clueless... But he's not an experienced professional like me, and it's not demeaning or sexist to say so.

 

I think sometimes we "talk out if both sides of our mouths" when we want to affirm our 'job' as requiring skill, dedication and intelligence -- while simultaneously casting it as easy enough for any inexperienced person to jump right into and do just fine. It's not easy, and non-full-timers often do have a hard time with it. That doesn't make them into inept boobies. It just means that people learn the skills they need for the jobs they do. Nobody learns skills their life is set up for them not to use.

[fraidycat]

My DH does just as much around the house that I do. Cooking, cleaning, etc.

 

He doesn't, however, have the1000's of hours of "logged experience" time dealing with the kids. There are times that I have to share "this is what I have tried, and this is what seems to work..." type of things about them.

 

*Could* he run the house for two weeks alone. Yep, he sure could. There'd be a learning curve, for sure, but he could do it - including meals.

 

This is no different that if a friend asked ME to watch her kids for a couple weeks. It would be a whole new set of circumstances, people, etc. Yes, I have kids, but my kids are not her kids, so there would be a learning curve for me, as well because the dynamics of the "job" will be changed.

[Parrothead]

I've worked less out of the house than my DH for about 15 years. That means that 'in fairness' I did more household tasks, most of the time. That makes me an experienced professional. It also means that this entire house, especially the kitchen, is organized to my liking according to how I work in it.

 

I also cook dinner, because dinner time is still a part of my full time parenting day. It's not 'after work' to me, or to my DH.

 

There are a LOT of things that are easy the 537th time that are hard the first 10 or 20 times around. Leaving an inexperienced person (of either gender) as full time solo parent is obviously going to be challenging for him/her. So, yeah, I'd expect a loving full-timer who was going to be absent to try and smooth things for the other person.

 

I'd be frustrated if I couldn't count on my dh's ability to parent reasonably well for a day or a weekend... And he's not clueless... But he's not an experienced professional like me, and it's not demeaning or sexist to say so.

 

I think sometimes we "talk out if both sides of our mouths" when we want to affirm our 'job' as requiring skill, dedication and intelligence -- while simultaneously casting it as easy enough for any inexperienced person to jump right into and do just fine. It's not easy, and non-full-timers often do have a hard time with it. That doesn't make them into inept boobies. It just means that people learn the skills they need for the jobs they do. Nobody learns skills their life is set up for them not to use.

 

So you are the professional parent and your dh is just an armature?

 

What do you mean by "reasonably well"? Has he been your kids dad since birth?

[bolt.]

Yes, I suppose 'professional' and 'amature' might apply (but only if you remember that amature means that someone is doing it for love!)

 

It's just the accumulation of a different skill level due to different quantities of practical experience.

 

However, I mean that mostly in a 'running a household' kind if way. In direct kid-interaction parenting, he's really up there with the best of us.

 

"Reasonably well" means critical things get done, and the kids have a good time -- but many things aren't a priority for him like they are for me, and that would start to show, especially over 2 weeks. AND it's harder for him (takes considerably more personal effort) to do "reasonably well" than it is for me to do my average/strong/competent best.

 

Yes, he has been their father since birth, and has worked outside the home in excess of full time since their birth(s).

[toawh]

toawh said in her reply to my post about her dh cooking

 

 

 

This made me wonder something.

 

Why is it society expects women to be able to work 9-5 then come home clean, cook and mind the children while doing so but it it difficult for our men to do so. toawh probably on a regular basis minds the kids and cooks.

 

Why do we as a whole (not saying this is in anyone person's family so please don't take it that way) have so few expectations of our men? We complain about how television portrays men as idiots, yet we treat them as if cooking a meal for themselves is difficult and cooking a meal for their family is akin to being bedridden.

 

We want them to man up but treat them like imbeciles.

 

Oh, and while we are at it, why do men "babysit" their own children? I heard this the other day, "I'm babysitting the children for my wife."

 

What gives?

 

 

Just to clarify:

Dh is in univeristy; we are a young couple. He studies by day and works night shift all but two days a week.Much of his free time is used up with homework Because of this I do the house work and mind the kids most the time. When he is home though he tells me dishes are off limits -- he cleans the kitchen and puts the kids to bed. I get the evening off. He's a huge help, but he is not a multi-tasker especially when doing things that don't come naturally for him like cooking. I never thought of it as a societal problem.

[bolt.]

I think the only way for two parents to gain equivalent skill levels with equivalent ease would be to spend equivalent amounts if time learning those things... No division of labour, no 'one works and the other stays home' -- just 50/50 on the home front, and wage earning from both too. That can work, and is probably very workable, but it isn't the case for the last 15 years in my house, so that's not the result we've ended up with.

[Happy]

I think moms need to do a better job teaching life skills to our sons. When I married my dh, he had never done his own laundry, cooked a meal that wasn't a frozen pizza, grocery shopped, balanced a checkbook, ironed a shirt, etc... His sisters learned all these skills, but they were never required of him. I made a comment about teaching our little guy to sew in a few years, and he looked at me like I was nuts. I also told him that he would learn to clean, cook, do laundry, mend his own clothes, garden, etc...

I think ds's future partner will thank me.

 

 

I certainly thanked my mom in law. I got a husband who knew how to cook (not just pop a frozen dinner in the microwave), do laundry, sew on a button, and clean a toilet. My MIL had no daughters so all of her six sons learned those roles as well as all the farm stuff.

 

When we married, I knew how to make toast. :)

 

We certainly tried to make sure our two sons knew all those things.

 

And yes, it's not babysitting if they are your own children.

[Parrothead]

Okay, so you all see to think it is more a matter of experience than anything else.

 

I'm seeing, all around me, women have taken the lead in the running of families. And the guys are "just a pay check." It seems the pendulum has swung to the other side. It is no longer "father knows best," but "mother knows all". I don't see much in the way of cooperative running of the families. I do see a lot of men-are-idiots-and-not-good-for-anything-but-going-to-work.

 

Like I said earlier, even on television men are marginalized simply for being men. No, men aren't marginalized. Husbands and dads are. Jokes are made about their ability to care for their children, cook, fix the plumbing, and even of late fix the car. And it isn't limited to TV.

 

So that is why I'm wondering why men in general are not expected to be capable.

[justasque]

Okay, so you all see to think it is more a matter of experience than anything else.

 

Yes.

 

I'm seeing, all around me, women have taken the lead in the running of families. And the guys are "just a pay check."

 

There's no "just" about it. My dh's "9-5" is more like 8-7 M-F, plus half day on Sunday. And it's *hard* work. We are a team, and he's putting in his share; it just looks different from my share. If he had a different job, we might divide things differently. Ours is not the only way to split the work - everyone has to do what makes sense for their particular set of circumstances.

 

It seems the pendulum has swung to the other side. It is no longer "father knows best," but "mother knows all". I don't see much in the way of cooperative running of the families. I do see a lot of men-are-idiots-and-not-good-for-anything-but-going-to-work. Like I said earlier, even on television men are marginalized simply for being men. No, men aren't marginalized. Husbands and dads are. Jokes are made about their ability to care for their children, cook, fix the plumbing, and even of late fix the car. And it isn't limited to TV. So that is why I'm wondering why men in general are not expected to be capable.

 

I guess I don't take my cue from TV. Sure, there may be some teasing both ways - his lack of ability at doing my job; my lack of ability at doing his. I don't take it seriously, and I assume he doesn't either.

 

[bolt.]

I don't mind that not everyone finds every task easy or straightforward. I don't mind that people learn through trial and error.

 

When we say that people (or a whole gender) are "not capable" -- we need to wonder "not capable if what?" Just saying "not capable" implies that what people ought to be capable if is obvious.

 

I don't think "not capable of high level household and child management for extended times, with ease, and without experiencing the mistakes of a novice" is an insulting thing to say about someone -- if that's not something they have had much opportunity, need, or desire to learn.

 

Division of labour creates that lack of opportunity. Therefore it results in spouse who have lower and higher levels of skill.

 

I just don't get how that demeans anyone -- but if it does, every family in our society is free to choose their own balance of wages-and-home-tasks for each spouse, so I don't think it would be a tough problem to solve.

 

If a man (or whoever) wants more time with kids and home, to build his capabilities, he should seek those opportunities. He should not expect to hop in to a tough job without experiencing a learning curve. It would be a dishonest sort of flattery to treat him as if, "This was genuinely hard for me to learn, and still often causes me strain, and you haven't done it for more than 4 hours alone, maybe once every month or two -- but you shouldn't have a care in the world for the next two weeks. You are just so capable in my eyes that nothing could be a struggle for you!"

 

If an at-home parent wants to say, "I think this will be a breeze for you, even with limited prior experience." -- S/he really needs to be prepared to admit, "Actually, this stuff I do all day, every day is as easy as pie, and I enjoy countless hours of soap operas and bon-bons on a daily basis."

 

Either it's a hard job that I've learned to do well, and others can expect to struggle -- or it's an easy enough job for anyone, and I've lucked into stay-at-home life on easy street. It can't be both ways.

[Parrothead]

I'm not taking my cues from TV. As I said on a couple occasions I see it all around me. It is a prevalent a mind-set over all, (I'm not calling out any one person) even TV.

 

I'm not sure why everyone is taking my observations so personally. I'm asking about a universal phenomena I see again and again.

[Happy]

toawh said in her reply to my post about her dh cooking

 

 

 

This made me wonder something.

 

Why is it society expects women to be able to work 9-5 then come home clean, cook and mind the children while doing so but it it difficult for our men to do so. toawh probably on a regular basis minds the kids and cooks.

 

Why do we as a whole (not saying this is in anyone person's family so please don't take it that way) have so few expectations of our men? We complain about how television portrays men as idiots, yet we treat them as if cooking a meal for themselves is difficult and cooking a meal for their family is akin to being bedridden.

 

We want them to man up but treat them like imbeciles.

 

Oh, and while we are at it, why do men "babysit" their own children? I heard this the other day, "I'm babysitting the children for my wife."

 

What gives?

Bolding mine.

 

It makes a difference when the woman is a stay at home mom. Then most of the household tasks are hers to do simply because she has more time to do them all. But the question was women seem to be able to work 9-5 and come home and accomplish something more...men don't and why is that.

 

When I worked full time and my husband was a stay at home dad, he did most of the cooking, cleaning, and childcare. (And did it well, I might add.) When I was a stay at home mom, I did most of it. The point is when we BOTH work, we both come home and tend to our household--whether that is cooking, cleaning, gardening, kid care, or critter care. Because work is work and not gender specific.

[sewingmama]

I think moms need to do a better job teaching life skills to our sons. When I married my dh, he had never done his own laundry, cooked a meal that wasn't a frozen pizza, grocery shopped, balanced a checkbook, ironed a shirt, etc... His sisters learned all these skills, but they were never required of him. I made a comment about teaching our little guy to sew in a few years, and he looked at me like I was nuts. I also told him that he would learn to clean, cook, do laundry, mend his own clothes, garden, etc...

I think ds's future partner will thank me.

 

 

This.

 

My DH was raised that men don't do anything in the house and are waited on by women. I didn't realise this as his parents lived overseas and I never met them till our wedding day. His mother and grandmother did everything for him ...right down to getting him drinks so he wouldn't have to get up from watching tv. His dad was waited on the same way and so that is the role model he had.

 

After 10 years of marriage I can't break him of this. The kids, the yard, the house is all my responsibility. When he comes home from work (he is a school principal) he plants his butt in front of the computer and doesn't move.

 

Forget leaving the kids with him for two weeks I can't even leave them for a few hours if its over a mealtime because he won't feed them.

 

A few years ago I was in hospital with pneumonia. The oldest two kids were 18 months and 3 months old. I was in an isolation room because they weren't sure what I had and was being tested for TB. After 2 days my baby was in such poor condition (it was 45 degrees every day and he was only feeding him 3 bottles every 24 hours) that I made him bring the baby to the hospital for me to care for. So I could barely get out of bed and hospitalised and still having to care for a child.

 

That left him with the 18 month old...who he bought Happy meals for 3x a day which made her look so pale and lethargic I started saving my hospital meals to feed her when she came to visit.

 

One day he turns up at 9am and drops my DD off....saying he needed to run an errand and it would be easier without her. He came back at 8pm that night. I was left almost 12 hours with 2 kids under 2 in an isolation room with nothing for my DD to do whilst I could barely move. Thank goodness the baby was just one that ate and slept all the time.

 

Yes it was ridiculous but my only concern was the health of my kids so I did it.

 

I have no illusions that my DH is useless and can't do anything but he doesn't want to and won't. He can't even see that anything is wrong with this because its all he has ever known.

 

It is easy enough to say " oh I would read my DH the riot act and it would not go on in my house" but it's very difficult if kids suffer for it.

 

I have managed to break something though...I never wait on him personally. He can get his own drink if he is watching tv and I don't do his washing unless he picks it up off the floor where he threw it and brings it out.

[KungFuPanda]

I think it's more a matter of being thrown out of your element. If you cook a lot (man or woman), cooking is simple and easy. If you're used to cooking while juggling the house and kids, you've probably taken the time to puzzle out how to get it all done in the most efficient way.

 

My DH rarely cooks, and sometimes I leave town for 2-3 days while he runs the show. He gets things done, but he doesn't do it MY way. Things get put away in weird places. They get a LOT of take-out. If I want to control the budget, I prep some things ahead of time. Usually, I just let it go and come home to an intact house and people who haven't starved. He must do something right, because the kids love when Daddy is in charge.

 

I have a friend whose husband does all of the cooking. Their meals aren't altered unless Daddy leaves town :-)

[regentrude]

It isn't that the men don't have a brain or the physical stamina to cook and clean up. But it is okay that they do frozen pizza and leave the house a mess. Why?

 

 

Maybe because they do not derive their self-worth from having a spotless home and creating elaborate home cooked meals - but are content with a pizza and a decently clean house i.e. not being hungry, and house OK to have friends over? Maybe because they do not feel the need to compete with Good Housekeeping magazine? Because they are not being measured by their fellow men for such things - as opposed to women who compete with other women for the best-homemaker- prize and look down on others who have lesser standards?

[Koerarmoca]

 

 

Not to pick on you or your family, but this is what I'm getting at.

 

More often than not if the man has worked all day he is expected to put in a pizza and not keep up with the house and we make that okay. Why doesn't a woman, who has worked a full day no matter the type of work, expect the man to cook a decent meal and keep the house tidy when she has to go to an evening meeting or work over time?

 

If the roles were reversed we would expect the women to feed the kids a hot meal meal and have the house tidy and the dishes done before the man got home from his meeting or over time.

 

It isn't that the men don't have a brain or the physical stamina to cook and clean up. But it is okay that they do frozen pizza and leave the house a mess. Why?

 

I understand you 100% for me I just don't care. Their has been times where my husband has worked odd hours or worked 2-3 Jobs. I am happy knowing he was home having fun with the kids rather than having to clean/cook. (Which he has no issues with cooking, or cleaning up after cooking) I was speaking more in terms of "mom being gone for two weeks" I would then assume he would of taken a night or two off from cooking during the two weeks, and that the house would be less than clean.

 

(I also would re-clean/organizie after him because I'm a bit of a control freak and it wouldn't be "my way")

 

I don't know why that not cooking/helping is the "norm"

[Delirium]

When my spouse was fully functional we took turns cooking and caring for our daughter while the other was at work and such.

[Joyofsixreboot]

People generally meet your expectations-high or low. My dh would do fine. They'd eat pizza, eggs, macaroni and takeout but they'd live. * Just asked dh who says "Stouffers makes a great line of prepared casseroles." :-)

[GSOchristie]

My dh is seriously impaired in the kitchen. He is a brilliant photographer, can figure out any electronic device, is great with our kids, helps with schooling, so he is not stupid by any stretch of the imagination. He flounders in the kitchen worse than our six year old. Now if I left him alone, he would just take them out and feed them cereal, but no meals. He has asked for lessons, but I just don't have time for that. He never seems to get any better no matter how many times I show him.

[Lisa in SC]

I see this mindset all around me as well. It's not the case in our home, thankfully. I'm fortunate to be able to stay at home full time, but dh still does a lot around the house and always has. I truly have a gem of a guy. When the kids were babies, even though I breast fed, he always got up, changed them, brought them to me and put them back into the bassinet. He did bath time because he was gone all day and wanted that time with them. He does household tasks as he notices a need, cooks about half the time, and lots of other really nice things.

 

I occasionally have the opportunity to have a weekend or even a week away with friends, and he encourages me to go. I've done this throughout our marriage. I'd do the same for him, but he really would rather take a day here or there and play a round or two of golf or do a little fishing. While I'm gone, he keeps the house tidy, and the kids clean, happy, and fed. I'm not really sure what my point is, but I guess I just wanted to agree that I see the same things you mention all around me, I'm not sure why this exists, and I wanted to say that it's not the case in our home. Oh, and even dh will correct others if someone mentions that he's "babysitting."