More depressing news for new graduates...

[creekland]

More scary news that I fear might be the new normal for a while...

 

http://www.epi.org/p...-job-prospects/

 

It still seems worth it to go to college, but watch that debt and be sure where you choose has successfully placed graduates recently. The article covers a bit more than what I've quoted...

 

Unemployment and underemployment rates of most young graduates have only modestly improved since last year, and rates among all graduates are substantially higher than before the recession began.

• For young high school graduates, the unemployment rate is 29.9 percent (compared with 17.5 percent in 2007) and the underemployment rate is 51.5 percent (compared with 29.4 percent in 2007).
  
• For young college graduates, the unemployment rate is 8.8 percent (compared with 5.7 percent in 2007) and the underemployment rate is 18.3 percent (compared with 9.9 percent in 2007).
  

 

 

[Teachin'Mine]

Even though the under/unemployment rates are higher than they've been in the past, what I get from what you've quoted is how much difference a college degree makes. 8.8% unemployment for young people newly job searching with some of those likely without any previous work experience ... that's not too bad. The rate for those who didn't graduate college is scary for sure.

 

Any idea how to change my font? I have no what I've done that has caused it to change, or how to get it back to "normal".

[creekland]

Even though the under/unemployment rates are higher than they've been in the past, what I get from what you've quoted is how much difference a college degree makes. 8.8% unemployment for young people newly job searching with some of those likely without any previous work experience ... that's not too bad. The rate for those who didn't graduate college is scary for sure.

 

Any idea how to change my font? I have no what I've done that has caused it to change, or how to get it back to "normal".

 

:iagree: I think it shows how much more employers are looking for that diploma when they have oodles of prospectives to choose from.

 

No clue on why the font changed, but you can make it whatever you want up top on the reply box.

[Teachin'Mine]

Thanks Creekland, but my reply box seems to be missing the font options. The font I print in the reply box is different, but it prints out fine on the forum. So all's well. lol

 

Yes, I think the diploma is needed for many jobs which didn't require it years ago. And I think it's just because employers can be pickier in this job market, not that it's necessarily needed for job performance.

[creekland]

Checking to see if it will let me copy one of the graphics as the difference in wages is rather high too:

 

OK... THAT didn't work! One will have to click on the link and scroll down to Figure J...

[HollyDay]

This topic really concerns me. Dd will finish high school next year so we are in the middle of SAT, ACT prep and college selections. BUT, I don't want her to wind up with tons of debt. We personally know a few college grads with huge debts working for less pay than they expected in jobs not in their field of study just to pay back that debt and make ends meet. Some are working more than one job. I hear them talk about having to live at home again or with roommates and trying to make it pay check to pay check with no better outlook in the near future.

 

Is it no longer reasonable to expect to find a job one has just spent 4 (or more if talking grad degrees) years studying that will cover rent, car payments, insurance, COLLEGE LOANS, utlitiies, etc.?

[8filltheheart]

I strongly recommend investigating co-op/career placement offices as part of the college selection. Are employers recruiting students on campus? Are interships, research opportunities, co-op placements the norm? Do they only work with engineering students or across most majors?

 

Work experience + GPA makes all the difference between employment and none upon graduation. Also, "name recognition" by the general public is not necessarily the equivalent of "name recognition" by employers. Talk to career placement office. Find who hires their grads and what %. Call the human resource depts of those companies and find out how they view the school's grads. I strongly disagree with the contention that employment opportunities are restricted to only across the country "name recognized" schools. Regional schools are often highly regarded by employers, even top corporations from other locales.

 

If a school's response is that their students "find" internship opportunities.....translate that into meaning that they aren't having recruiters on campus and students are having to find time to go job hunting.

[Shelsi]

Yes, I think the diploma is needed for many jobs which didn't require it years ago. And I think it's just because employers can be pickier in this job market, not that it's necessarily needed for job performance.

 

That's absolutely part of it. My dad just retired a few years ago. He started with a high school diploma and a few months of apprenticeship. When he retired the new employees were required to have PhDs (and were paid considerably less than my dad since they were young and inexperienced). It drove him crazy whenever he was on vacation & then had to come back to work to clean up their mistakes - all the education didn't make up for the lack of practical experience.

 

I think its still possible to find a decent career without a degree but one must choose very wisely & typically you are "stuck" in that career. My friend's dh worked up the grocery store management ladder & makes a good income for them but he wouldn't be able to switch to anything else. My own dh has the same problem. He & I were both trained in the military & it actually makes for a fairly high paying successful career as civilians except it's mentally/emotionally draining work - he's burnt out & now has pretty much no option but to go to school & get a degree. Anything else in the same pay range requires a degree...it doesn't have to be in the same field at all but they just want to see education or they're not going to look at you.

[Jenny in Florida]

1. Those who went to college had a much lower unemployment rate than those who didn't.

2. College isn't (and shouldn't be) vocational training.

 

Of course it's "worth it."

[Jenny in Florida]

Is it no longer reasonable to expect to find a job one has just spent 4 (or more if talking grad degrees) years studying that will cover rent, car payments, insurance, COLLEGE LOANS, utlitiies, etc.?

 

I don't think it's reasonable to "expect" such a thing, ever. Going to college is not a promisory note for gainful employment. It's about getting an education.

[Arcadia]

Is it no longer reasonable to expect to find a job one has just spent 4 (or more if talking grad degrees) years studying that will cover rent, car payments, insurance, COLLEGE LOANS, utlitiies, etc.?

 

It has never been reasonable to expect that.

For example, if the state expects to hire 100 social work graduates to replace potential retirees. There are many state universities offering social work as a undergrad study. The number of graduates is likely to exceed 100. Add to the issue, some social workers decide to delay retirement. What you have is oversupply.

[creekland]

I think it's important to remind our kids that life is really a competition and not everyone gets a trophy just for participating.

 

Trophies in life (usually) go to those who show they are worth it - they have expertise, they work, they think, they are dependable, they are fun to be around, they don't turn anyone off by body odors or other such things...

 

Life lessons like those are incredibly important for any level of job today - then add the education to (hopefully) get the expertise and (perhaps) more thinking ability. The latter two might be debatable (pending job), but more and more employers are wanting to see degrees because those are the common beliefs.

 

In the "old days" most used to realize life was a competition. In today's day and age, I'm not so sure that's true.

[HollyDay]

Going to college is not a promisory note for gainful employment. It's about getting an education.

 

Yes, education is certainly part of the goal. However, if you take out a loan, it is a promisory note that you will pay it off.

 

I just wonder about the young adults who have 6 figure debt for their education and can't find a job. There are so many young people I've spoken with who have great educations, but are working far removed from their area of expertise for little pay to support that debt.

[Jean in Wisc]

My son loved his communication classes, but he was told that there was a 50% chance of getting a job in that field. He loves English, too, but what do you do with an English major?

 

He just declared his major--Software Engineering. Computers have always interested him. The job market predictions are what caused him to decide on this major.

 

My older son will graduate in Mechanical Engineering next year. Hope they can find jobs when the time comes...or maybe we will have farm hands for a bit longer, right?

 

:-/

 

Oh--and they both commute from home. Lucky to have an engineering school within commuting distance. So far, they have been able to pay cash for their tuition.

 

Tough times for a lot of folks. Don't see it turning around any time too soon, either.

[FaithManor]

 

Yes, education is certainly part of the goal. However, if you take out a loan, it is a promisory note that you will pay it off.

 

I just wonder about the young adults who have 6 figure debt for their education and can't find a job. There are so many young people I've spoken with who have great educations, but are working far removed from their area of expertise for little pay to support that debt.

 

 

 

Well, the good news is that most kids have not made the choice to go into that level of debt. These are the horror stories we hear, and yet, it's a bit misleading. The average student loan debt in this nation at the time of graduation for an undergrad degree is just over $12,000.00. I've met a lot of kids in the $10,000 - $30,000 range but only two higher than that and the two with the bigger debt went into very specific, high paying jobs and are not struggling to pay those bills though it may keep them out of home ownership for longer than they'd like.

 

To put that into perspective, many, many people - far more people than students - have car loans larger than the average student debt loan payment.

 

I am adverse to large debt for an education. However, smaller loans I think are worth the investment. Our goal is for the kids to not have more than $20,000.00 each and likely they will have less than that. Dd is currently debt free with a year of school to go. Her fiance is a lot worse off but then the career he is in has a pretty good size starting salary even for the newbies so with their combined income, they'll be in pretty good shape. She's a medic working on her nursing degree after dropping her pre-med/chemistry major.

 

A lot of this is all about choosing wisely and I do think 18 year olds need guidance in this department and the research MUST begin long before the senior year commences.

 

Faith

[Caroline]

I have a statistics question... When the average debt of college grads is computed, is it the average debt if students who have debt, or are all the students who have no debt in the calculation, too? What percentage of college grads have debt?

[Arcadia]

I have a statistics question... When the average debt of college grads is computed, is it the average debt if students who have debt, or are all the students who have no debt in the calculation, too? What percentage of college grads have debt?

 

This is a 2012 article http://money.cnn.com...debt/index.html

 

The average debt amount was based on students who have debt (excluding those with no debt) at graduation for the article. The article said that 2/3 of the 2011 cohort has debt.

[Candid]

I have a statistics question... When the average debt of college grads is computed, is it the average debt if students who have debt, or are all the students who have no debt in the calculation, too? What percentage of college grads have debt?

 

Good questions! I think I might have more: but it would help to simply know how the average student debt is calculated? Is it at graduation? Is it the average student debt for everyone in the country? Or everyone that has any student debt? At graduation seems the most important number.

[HollyDay]

Again, this is a very timely thread for me as I have a dc who will finish high school soon. I do agree that many have a car loan payment that can equal college loan. My concern is the car loan AND the student loan. AND all the other debt on top of it. Don't forget the health insurance penalty is coming soon too, so if those grads don't have full time jobs that offer health care, they have medical expenses,etc.

[In The Great White North]

This is a 2012 article http://money.cnn.com...debt/index.html

 

The average debt amount was based on students who have debt. The article said that 2/3 of the 2011 cohort has debt.

 

The article didn't mention debt that the parents take on for their students education either. I was under the impression that the FAFSA assumed that the parents would also take out loans?

[In The Great White North]

This is a 2012 article http://money.cnn.com...debt/index.html

 

The average debt amount was based on students who have debt. The article said that 2/3 of the 2011 cohort has debt.

 

The article didn't mention debt that the parents take on for their students education either. I was under the impression that the FAFSA assumed that the parents would also take out loans?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This topic really concerns me. Dd will finish high school next year so we are in the middle of SAT, ACT prep and college selections. BUT, I don't want her to wind up with tons of debt. We personally know a few college grads with huge debts working for less pay than they expected in jobs not in their field of study just to pay back that debt and make ends meet. Some are working more than one job. I hear them talk about having to live at home again or with roommates and trying to make it pay check to pay check with no better outlook in the near future.

 

Is it no longer reasonable to expect to find a job one has just spent 4 (or more if talking grad degrees) years studying that will cover rent, car payments, insurance, COLLEGE LOANS, utlitiies, etc.?

 

 

A bit of a tangent but is it that unreasonable to have a roommate when you are newly graduated? I shared a house with two other new officers for six months. This was pretty common in the areas where school commands were. Dh had a roommate for about three years, even for a few months after we married because we weren't stationed together.

If you look at historical practice I wonder if single person apartments or houses aren't atypical.

[FaithManor]

Again, this is a very timely thread for me as I have a dc who will finish high school soon. I do agree that many have a car loan payment that can equal college loan. My concern is the car loan AND the student loan. AND all the other debt on top of it. Don't forget the health insurance penalty is coming soon too, so if those grads don't have full time jobs that offer health care, they have medical expenses,etc.

 

 

This is true. Some grads will be able to stay on their parents health insurance until 26, older grads or married ones will not. It's tough. I am adamantly opposed to the "penalty" because frankly, if the person can't afford a health insurance premium, even a catastrophic care one with a high deductible, then they can't afford a $2000.00 penalty. Makes no sense to me! But, that's a topic for a different forum.

 

I was just trying to keep it in perspective. When articles get published in the national news outlets highlighting some girl from NYU with a six figure debt for a teaching degree and the journalist positions the story in such a way that it makes it sound like this is common, I bristle. Yes, some kids do make stupid decisions like that. However, they aren't all doing that. Most kids chose either the school that offered a lot of need based aid, or merit aid, or both, or the on-campus job that paid a percentage of their tuition on top of the other aid, or the commuter school and either lived at home or bunked in with four other people to share expenses, or ......Most of them are not signing their lives away to huge debts. Plus, while car loans are generally paid back in 5 years or less making the payment more substantial, student loans are amortized over 10 years so the payment is more manageable. Not saying I like delaying the pay off for ten years, but this does make it easier to manage if getting a good paying job is tough.

 

What concerns me the most is the unemployment rate for high school grads. That is just HUGE and an awful lot of parents I know will not suffer an 18 year old to live at home without a job. They make them hit the road. 30% just hits me in the gut. There is virtually nothing in our neck of the woods that a high school grad can do that will get them more than 15-20 hrs. per week minimum wage with out a scrap of benefits and one cannot pay rent, buy gas for whatever junker car you drive plus repair it and insure it, plus pay the most modest of utilities and still purchase food on that kind of piddly take-home pay. If the IRS goes after young people in this boat for that insurance penalty, I don't see how they'll collect it. It's a scary world out there right now for most twenty-somethings, but it's the worst for those that aren't seeking post-high school education and if their parents are unemployed, then they don't have an insurance safety net they can use until 26 nor can they probably stay on their parents car insurance plan so they receive the discounts that go with policies that have been held by older drivers for long periods of time. Car insurance is a huge issue!

 

It's important to sit down with teens and show them budgets. Work one out for the cheap apartment down the road, utilities - heat if you live in cold climate or air conditioning down south or out west or let them figure out that they might have to sweat A LOT or keep the heat down and wear coats and mittens in the apartment - have them find out what an independent car insurance policy will cost, take them grocery shopping on a very small budget, etc. I think quite a number of young folks are startled to find out what it costs to live on their own and it's a wake up call they need so they will plan wisely and that includes showing them what student loan payments look like on $5000, 15,000, 30,000, and on up.

 

Sugar coating it doesn't help. Though, it should be tempered with a lot of encouragement so they don't become too fearful of their future because that can make it hard for them to move forward and make good decisions too.

 

Faith

[regentrude]

Yes, education is certainly part of the goal. However, if you take out a loan, it is a promisory note that you will pay it off.

I just wonder about the young adults who have 6 figure debt for their education and can't find a job. There are so many young people I've spoken with who have great educations, but are working far removed from their area of expertise for little pay to support that debt.

 

 

First of all, as others have mentioned already, the average student debt is about 27k, not the ridiculous 100k that sometimes are cited in examples in the media.

 

Second, students should examine the employment prospects in their major carefully before taking on debt. The amount of debt that is reasonable for a degree definitely depends on the degree.

It makes a big difference whether you major in a subject where the average salaries are in the 20ks and staying that low for a number of years, or whether you study a field where average starting salaries begin at 60k and rise quickly.

 

The graduates from the school where I teach have average starting salaries of 59k right out of school; with a salary like this, a debt can be paid down quickly. If you go into a field with a high unemployment/low salaries, not so much.

 

ETA: Also, I agree with the comments about lifestyle. Living with room mates or driving an old car while you pay off debt is not an unreasonable hardship. (Postponing starting a family or buying a house helps, too)

[J-rap]

This is true. Some grads will be able to stay on their parents health insurance until 26, older grads or married ones will not.

 

Off the subject a little, but I believe married children CAN stay on their parents' health plan (up til age 26). Our married daughter is still on ours, since her husband's health plan only covers her in his home country.

[creekland]

 

What concerns me the most is the unemployment rate for high school grads. That is just HUGE and an awful lot of parents I know will not suffer an 18 year old to live at home without a job. They make them hit the road. 30% just hits me in the gut. There is virtually nothing in our neck of the woods that a high school grad can do that will get them more than 15-20 hrs. per week minimum wage with out a scrap of benefits and one cannot pay rent, buy gas for whatever junker car you drive plus repair it and insure it, plus pay the most modest of utilities and still purchase food on that kind of piddly take-home pay.

Faith

 

Those numbers hit me too. 30% unemployed and roughly 50% underemployed. Then look at the differences in how much they earn (Figure J scrolling down). $16.60/hour vs $9.48. It's almost double for those in the degree pool. It makes me worry about our future knowing that less than half are getting a college diploma right now.

 

It's why, for most kids, getting some sort of college degree or other certificate is my recommendation unless they have a sure thing going for them employment-wise.

 

Then I try to work on those life skills mentioned earlier.

[HollyDay]

A bit of a tangent but is it that unreasonable to have a roommate when you are newly graduated? I shared a house with two other new officers for six months. This was pretty common in the areas where school commands were. Dh had a roommate for about three years, even for a few months after we married because we weren't stationed together.

If you look at historical practice I wonder if single person apartments or houses aren't atypical.

 

No, it is not unreasonable to live at home or have a roommate for a period of time. What I'm seeing though is more and more older, going on 28-30, who are still in that situation and don't want to be.

 

We drive old cars (one is going on 20 and still going) to avoid debt and that is perfectly reasonable as well. My concern is for the folks launching into their 20s with college debt, car debt, credit card debt, "life" (utilities, cell phone, groceries). They will want to eventually purchase homes, replace cars when theirs gives out, perhaps marry, perhaps have children, take vacations, etc. Starting out so far behind the financial line is a scary thing. I heard a lady locally mention not long ago that she is still paying off her college debt while her dd, now a 10th grader, is thinking about college and will need money for her (the daughter's) future. There must be better way.

 

I have to agree with Regentrude about major selection and debt management. When I ask what someone is majoring in, I'm hearing things like: music with emphasis on guitar, literature, dance, sociology, etc. I don't know about the prospects for a BS in sociology, maybe is is really good. But, I'm thinking the others are not all that lucrative. Some areas, such at PT require a masters and/or PhD to either get a job or for job advancement. So, yes, there is debt and then there is *debt*.

 

There has to be a better way though. Online college? Work and go to college part time? Community College first then transfer?

[creekland]

 

There has to be a better way though. Online college? Work and go to college part time? Community College first then transfer?

 

I'd be really wary of online for a new hire. There was a survey of employers not that long ago and online degrees were the only degree considered in a negative light among a significant number of them. Online degrees can be useful for someone already on the job who just needs a degree to check a box (way too common now), but then it's their expertise/work ethic on their job that is giving them the advancement more than what they are learning from their new degree. New hires don't have that.

 

Work and college can work for the right person - assuming they can find a job that pays enough. Mine work while in college through work study. That's not enough to pay for college totally, but it definitely helps. They also get summer jobs.

 

Community college first - or just for certificates and/or 2 year degrees is enough for many too. This survey didn't count 2 year degrees, but one not long ago showed they were viable for many. It all depends upon which path folks want. A caution to this is that two years then transferring doesn't work for all majors or in all places. Sometimes one can end up paying more by this route since many lucrative scholarships are available to incoming freshman only - not so many for transfers. As with any path when $$ are an issue, investigate carefully.

[Arcadia]

.Second, students should examine the employment prospects in their major carefully before taking on debt. The amount of debt that is reasonable for a degree definitely depends on the degree.

........

The graduates from the school where I teach have average starting salaries of 59k right out of school; with a salary like this, a debt can be paid down quickly.

 

I have to agree with Regentrude about major selection and debt management.

 

There has to be a better way though. Online college? Work and go to college part time? Community College first then transfer?

 

 

Read a local news article and thought of this thread

"Dev Bootcamp has trained about 400 students, and 95 percent of them have been hired as software developers with an average salary of about $80,000, Bishay said. It's now opening a campus in Chicago.

.........

One San Francisco school called App Academy doesn't charge tuition. Instead, it asks for a 15 percent cut of the student's first-year salary. Graduates who can't find jobs don't have to pay, but so far nearly all of them have. "

"

[Jane in NC]

The article didn't mention debt that the parents take on for their students education either. I was under the impression that the FAFSA assumed that the parents would also take out loans?

 

 

FAFSA assumes that most parents (excluding those of minimal income and assets) will bear a certain part of the costs of college. Whether parents choose to do this by delving into their savings, begging from Grandma or assuming a loan is not known nor can it be tracked. Parents who borrow on a line of credit on their homes may be using the money to replace the roof or pay tuition--who knows.

 

The point that I have made repeatedly though is that FAFSA and the educational institutions assume that parents are saving for college--whether or not they have.

[Laura in CA]

Read a local news article and thought of this thread

"Dev Bootcamp has trained about 400 students, and 95 percent of them have been hired as software developers with an average salary of about $80,000, Bishay said. It's now opening a campus in Chicago.

.........

One San Francisco school called App Academy doesn't charge tuition. Instead, it asks for a 15 percent cut of the student's first-year salary. Graduates who can't find jobs don't have to pay, but so far nearly all of them have. "

"

 

 

 

Wow! Interesting article. Thanks for posting!