Anyone not like WWE?

[Ariston]

I have just about convinced myself that WWE is what my kids need for next year but I thought I'd make a last-gasped attempt to get talked out of it. Anyone not like WWE, or have an unsuccessful experience with it? Anyone have a 'better' approach to writing in the elementary years?

 

It is inexpensive so I shouldn't be so worried about trying it, but the reason I hesitate is because I am really not on the SWB bandwagon. While reading WTM I found myself disagreeing with so much that I had to put it down several times and walk away :) But after a few years of resisting, I've come to think that WWE might be just what we need.

 

I hesitate to buy something from someone whose philosophy is so different from my own. I should mention that writing is the one subject that I do not have a strong instinct about how to teach, which is probably why I've been 'sucked in' by the WTM cult in this area ;) I've always hated writing and definitely need some hand holding on how to teach it.

 

Whenever I look at samples of FLL I want to gouge my eyes out. But WWE looks less eye-gougy.

 

Thanks in advance!!

[MeganW]

- I am really not on the SWB bandwagon.

- While reading WTM I found myself disagreeing with so much that I had to put it down several times and walk away

- I hesitate to buy something from someone whose philosophy is so different from my own.

- ... why I've been 'sucked in' by the WTM cult in this area

- Whenever I look at samples of FLL I want to gouge my eyes out.

 

 

You know this website is run by SWB, for homeschoolers following her WTM/classical method, right? I'm not at all trying to be snarky - just be sure that you knew! While there are homeschoolers of other stripes here, most are following the methods you disagree with, so it may not be the best place to find the answers you are looking for. You may get more helpful responses by asking on a website that more closely aligns with your educational philosophy.

[Element]

I have just about convinced myself that WWE is what my kids need for next year but I thought I'd make a last-gasped attempt to get talked out of it. Anyone not like WWE, or have an unsuccessful experience with it? Anyone have a 'better' approach to writing in the elementary years?

 

It is inexpensive so I shouldn't be so worried about trying it, but the reason I hesitate is because I am really not on the SWB bandwagon. While reading WTM I found myself disagreeing with so much that I had to put it down several times and walk away :) But after a few years of resisting, I've come to think that WWE might be just what we need.

 

I hesitate to buy something from someone whose philosophy is so different from my own. I should mention that writing is the one subject that I do not have a strong instinct about how to teach, which is probably why I've been 'sucked in' by the WTM cult in this area ;) I've always hated writing and definitely need some hand holding on how to teach it.

 

Whenever I look at samples of FLL I want to gouge my eyes out. But WWE looks less eye-gougy.

 

Thanks in advance!!

 

 

 

How you describe your experience with WTM in the sentence I bolded is exactly how I felt about Charlotte Mason's work when I first read it. However, now I am able to pick and choose a few key points from CM's methods and apply them to our homeschool. I still disagree with a lot of CM but she has some great ideas that have helped improve our school. My point is, take what you want from WTM or whatever homeschool philosophy, and leave what you don't.

 

There isn't a lot of "philosophy" behind WWE by itself. It's a method. If you think the copywork, narration, dictation method will help your child, try it out. No Kool-Aid drinking required. ;)

[Kathleen.]

I felt the same way when I looked at it. I use it to fit our needs. Mostly for the comprehension questions and narration. I was very hesitant to get it at first because it is the polar opposite of MCT and Teaching the Classics approach - which I like. Just take it all with a grain of salt.

[stripe]

Also, some people don't like the feeling that the selections jump around, so you could use the manual and select your own readings/copywork. Or go for the Bravewriter Arrow type products, which are vaguely similar.

[Ariston]

You know this website is run by SWB, for homeschoolers following her WTM/classical method, right? I'm not at all trying to be snarky - just be sure that you knew! While there are homeschoolers of other stripes here, most are following the methods you disagree with, so it may not be the best place to find the answers you are looking for. You may get more helpful responses by asking on a website that more closely aligns with your educational philosophy.

 

Yes, i know :) I agree with you that if I were an unschooler or something of that ilk these boards would probably not be the right place to get advice. But honestly these forums are the best place for classical homeschoolers to find advice and curriculum reviews, whether they follow WTM or not. From what I gather from the few SWB lectures I've listened to, she favors critical independent thinking over hero-worship and deferring to experts, so I trust she wouldn't be offended by someone disagreeing heartily with her :)

[Ariston]

I felt the same way when I looked at it. I use it to fit our needs. Mostly for the comprehension questions and narration. I was very hesitant to get it at first because it is the polar opposite of MCT and Teaching the Classics approach - which I like. Just take it all with a grain of salt.

 

Yes that's my exact problem. Did you end up using WWE or do you use something else?

 

It's a method. If you think the copywork, narration, dictation method will help your child, try it out. No Kool-Aid drinking required. ;)

 

That is what i'm trying to figure out....copywork, narration and dictation are so foreign to me and honestly don't resonate much. In other words I don't read about them and think 'yes, exactly, that's what I should do!' I have no personal knowledge of their being successful, and yet so many people profess their importance. I guess I am going on faith or deference to others in trying this approach, which is an uncomfortable place for me. I also worry that it is a method that you have to 'try' for 5 years before you see if it works, since it progresses so slowly! Is that true?

 

And ha ha to the Kool-Aid comment. :)) I spend so much time on these boards I guess it was bound to happen eventually :)

[wapiti]

There isn't a lot of "philosophy" behind WWE by itself. It's a method. If you think the copywork, narration, dictation method will help your child, try it out. No Kool-Aid drinking required. ;)

 

This. It's about skill development. It may be that you can find a different route/program more suitable for your dc for developing certain skills, or need to tweak WWE due to your dc's own strengths/weaknesses, etc. Take what you find useful - which may or may not involve greater struggle for your dc than for other kids - and leave the rest.

[PentecostalMom]

I am not on the "SWB bandwagon" either. I do, however, think she is a well-educated woman who has written a solid program. I used it last year with my dd. I don't feel I have to completely agree with any publisher or writer to use some of their materials. They just have to fit my homeschool. :)

[Kathleen.]

Ariston, yes we do use WWE sort of. I did week 1 with my first grader so far. We are not into copywork or dictation. I'm sure they're useful skills at some point, but they seem so tedious and contradictory to what I thought SWB's goal was about reading (don't read just to answer a bunch of comp. questions). I realize the goal of WWE is to develop a skill, but it's certainly not writing. Perhaps it's more like replicating.

[Hfamous]

I'm a very eclectic homeschooler. But we have found WWE 1 a perfect fit for my reluctant writer second grader this year. I do think its improving her comfort with writing a lot! I also did not like the look of FLL and use a mixture of Kumon and Growing with grammar instead. I would recommend it and love the workbooks complete ease if use.

[Walking-Iris]

I also felt a bit annoyed when I read WTM for the first time. But then I just sat down with it and digested the parts I do like and ignored the rest.

 

When I first started using WWE I literally hated it. I wanted my ds writing, not memorizing a line from a passage in some random book. I also did not want him writing summary narrations all year long. I disagreed (and honestly still do) that creative writing ought to be postponed and not actively taught. I disagree that writing isn't natural. Anyway. Yes I also feel that WWE alone isn't writing. I guess it depends on one's definition and goals for writing. Using WWE alone would have bored us all to tears ages ago.

 

Long story short. When I combined WWE with the Bravewriter materials. Light bulb moment! Julie Bogart is like SWB's more creative and less strict twin sister. WWE is the toolbox to build the house, Bravewriter is the design and decorative elements of the house. Form and function.

 

It was only after reading TWJ and then going back and looking through the WWE books that I began to love them. I didn't really get the importance of copywork/dictation/narration method until I read TWJ. It seemed a bit of a waste of time. But now I get it. WWE works for us now and I feel that it does because I don't use it exclusively. It works now because I add in the methods from Bravewriter. Bravewriter extends copywork where WWE stops that prematurely. Bravewriter also has a more natural and organic way of doing narrations that WWE. Bravewriter (especially in the Arrow Guidelines) has more options and strategies for doing and teaching dictation. And Bravewriter has children actually writing. Not just forming a summary narration and writing that down.

 

I started doing this mid year last year and I already see results from doing these daily with my ds. Mainly it requires parental discipline. You can't shirk your duty of doing it daily. Making it a part of routine. So no, I don't think one would have to wait years to see results.

 

I use separate grammar and spelling resources, however. I'm not at a point to trust them to cover those skills.

[LibraryLover]

I was very 'unschool-y' when my children were younger. Although not a pure unschooler, I do give my children certain freedoms. That said, I recommend WWE and WWS to anyone who asks about teaching writing. It is user-friendly. I couldn't be more impressed with the programs. It has worked very well for us.

 

I won't say all children love the narration/dictation/copy work in WWE, or the work of using the dictionary & thesaurus involved later. Further, some children need you to repeat the narration portions over and over. I wouldn't attempt it with most young boys ( I would not try it until about 8, or maybe a mature 7 year old. Girls are a bit different), because of the copy work. Make sure your child is ready. A lot of boys, especially, are not. WWS ramps up, and kids need to start working on writing good paragraphs, taking information and notes from literature (all included), learning to quote from sources, and create Works Cited pages etc.

 

Depending on personality and child, never attempt a session unless all are well -rested and fed. ;) It can be challenging. If you choose it, don't try to be perfect, take your time with your children, and watch Susan's vids showing her working the program with her own children. There may be times you might want to gouge your eyes out, I don't know. If so, take a break. Walk away. Come back to it and try again. It's not something one can do in a car on in the waiting area of a gym while another child is at class.

 

I have a friend who does it with her child at the library. She says it forces her to keep her own tone in check if her child gets frustrated, and it keeps her child from whining loudly. ;) I am probably not winning you over with that anecdote. However, for me, I believe the instruction to be so solid, any occasional frustration is well worth it.

 

I was not a fan of FLL. We did a couple of lessons, and I gave the book away, telling the person she will probably give it away as well. ;) Some people love it. It's not without merit. It's not for everyone. Nothing is.

[Five More Minutes]

I wasn't 100% convinced about the efficacy of copywork and dictation when I started out, either, but after about six months of using WWE I saw the power of that combination as my dd started to write in complete sentences on her own. So it will take time to see results, but it won't take years before you have a sense of progress..

 

I also wondered if we'd find it monotonous -- but because the lessons are SO short each day, and because we're exposed to so many different authors, we've always rather enjoyed our daily writing time.

[Ariston]

Thank you so much to everyone for the replies...this thread has been very illuminating for me!!

 

Long story short. When I combined WWE with the Bravewriter materials. Light bulb moment! Julie Bogart is like SWB's more creative and less strict twin sister. WWE is the toolbox to build the house, Bravewriter is the design and decorative elements of the house. Form and function.

 

It was only after reading TWJ and then going back and looking through the WWE books that I began to love them. I didn't really get the importance of copywork/dictation/narration method until I read TWJ. It seemed a bit of a waste of time. But now I get it. WWE works for us now and I feel that it does because I don't use it exclusively. It works now because I add in the methods from Bravewriter. Bravewriter extends copywork where WWE stops that prematurely. Bravewriter also has a more natural and organic way of doing narrations that WWE. Bravewriter (especially in the Arrow Guidelines) has more options and strategies for doing and teaching dictation.

 

 

Do you use the WWE workbooks or do you use the hardcover and put your own program together? Is it hard to combine the two? (I tend not to do well with programs that require too much prep time or creative tweaking.) Does BW provide enough without WWE, or do you feel they both bring something to the table? (Sorry for all the questions!)

 

I have a friend who does it with her child at the library. She says it forces her to keep her own tone in check if her child gets frustrated, and it keeps her child from whining loudly. ;) I am probably not winning you over with that anecdote. However, for me, I believe the instruction to be so solid, any occasional frustration is well worth it.

 

 

LOL... I remember when I was having a bad day when my son was a toddler, I'd turn the video camera on and film him, forcing me to use my 'happy mom' voice :)

[trudence1]

It did NOT work with my boys, but, after reading these posts, it might have been that I tried it before they were ready. Writing was something that we seemed to be failing at all the way around until we tried IEW. Now that my oldest is comfortable with writing, we're going to try WWS1 this coming year.

[Bocky]

We have been using WWE 3 Workbook for DD8. She loathes the dictation component - she hates to get things wrong and be corrected, and since she is not a natural speller, she struggles with many of the words. Once she worked out that I would dictate part of her narration back to her, she began narrating in three word sentences. I'm trying IEW with her, but feel that we haven't yet found our fit yet for writing curriculum.

 

I hope you find a good fit for your dc.

[Incognito]

I recently got the WWE "teacher's manual" (or whatever the non-workbook is called). It essentially gives you an example week, then tells you to do the same thing for a few weeks. Gives another example week, says to do the same thing for a few more weeks (sometimes many more weeks). If you don't want to prep, I'd go workbook. I had meant to order the workbook and accidentally ordered the wrong one. Admittedly, doing it with our own materials most weeks would probably be better for us, but I'm not sure if I will be able to make that happen. The ease of pulling something out and just doing it is often what *I* need for LA instruction.

[kiwik]

I agree FLL1 looks torturous and I think we will skip it. Ds6 and I seem to be ok with WWE1 so far ( he turned six on the 30th) - we do the reading and questions then the copywork. The main problem is he wants to write down the answers and he would rather not do complete sentences. We are afterschooling so combining the lessons means two days a week but I suspect we will slow down after a while. I have used the samples then done my own lessons so far but I am planning to get the workbook when finances permit because I am a stem person.

 

If I were home schooling I would probably add in some kind of creative writing but as it is I leave that to the school. I think WWE etc will teach the skills for the kind of writing I have had to do as an adult though.

[thegirlwhopaintedtrees]

I haven't read all the responses, but I feel it is important to read the Complete Writer (the beginning chapters) or listen to SWB's lecture on writing to understand where WWE is taking your child. If you just use WWE workbooks without knowing that, it will feel like replicating, especially if you start at the first level. I can't remember how detailed she explains writing in TWTM. WWE is my DD's favorite part of the day. If it is in her work trays, she will ask to do it first. I use it in conjunction to IEW's PAL (the third section) and have TWSS in the line up for the fall to go with WWE 2. SWB taught college level courses and knows what kind of writing is expected of that level. I trust that her curriculum will take my children there and that is what convinces me to continue. Of course, if DD didn't prefer it, maybe I wouldn't be as convinced?

 

I wish FLL was less scripted and more independent, but we plug along with it because, after WWE, it is on the top list of what my DD considers "fun" curriculum. Maybe I just have a quirky child. lol.

[Esse Quam Videri]

I think it depends on the child. I wholeheartedly believe in narration and dictation, but I'm not so sure that SWB's way of doing it is best. The short literature passages out of context can be a frustration for my kids, and also feels a bit too textbook. I would rather narrate/dictate what we are already reading. The 1-3 sentence narration is also frustrating and not necessarily age appropriate IMO. CM narrations emphasize children telling back the story/passage with as much detail and engagement as possible. They have plenty of time when they are a bit older to work on summarizing only the main points, but at this age it is so important to develop the ability to pay attention to details and retell the story. The other day, DD asked me to do a narration, and I wanted to give the SWB 2-3 sentence summary. That is obviously ridiculously easy for an adult. But retelling the entire story in an engaging, accurate way was so much more difficult... I don't think I ever developed the ability to pay attention to details the way she has :blush:.

[Walking-Iris]

Thank you so much to everyone for the replies...this thread has been very illuminating for me!!

 

 

 

Do you use the WWE workbooks or do you use the hardcover and put your own program together? Is it hard to combine the two? (I tend not to do well with programs that require too much prep time or creative tweaking.) Does BW provide enough without WWE, or do you feel they both bring something to the table? (Sorry for all the questions!)

 

 

 

http://forums.welltr...nd-bravewriter/

 

Here's a thread where I have posted in more depth about how I use WWE and the BW combo. I started out with just The Complete Writer text. I have read the writing sections in TWTM and listened to SWB's lecture on writing as well. Still I just wasn't feeling it. I've also read a bit of CM from the Ambleside website, and still just wasn't feeling it. :)

 

I do use the WWE workbooks now. Mainly because the text doesn't have the questions, and those questions have been the meat of this program's usefulness for my ds. I also don't have time, really, with three kids, to pull out selections and form my own questions every day. Much much easier to have it all laid out for me.

 

I do not however use the student sheets in the workbook. We do our copywork and dictation in a nice unlined sketchbook. My ds enjoys illustrating a scene from that passage with colored pencils. A bit of Waldorf style artwork thrown in.

 

I think BW would be enough without WWE. But...there again, you would have to pull together your own copywork and dictation passages etc. I use the Arrow guides. So we have the WWE reading selections/shorter dictations and also one long dictation passage a week from a book we are reading aloud that month. There's also literary elements and a concluding writing activity in the Arrow.

 

Mainly Bravewriter is my spine and the WWE workbooks are the resource I use to have dictation passages and narration questions already laid out for me.

 

I don't really tweak either one of them. They complement each other well. The elements in TWJ that I find missing in WWE are writing projects, editing/revising, the writing process, writer's voice, creative writing, literay elements and style. The elements missing from BW that I find in WWE are skills work in forming those summary narrations, finding the main idea, and comprehension. WWE seems to prepare kids for academic writing and thinking, BW prepares kids to write. (WWE is written by a homeschooling mother with an academic writing/teaching background, BW is written by a homeschooling mother with a professional creative writing background.)

 

WWE requires little to no prep time. We just pick up each day where we left off. BW does require one to read TWJ and digest it and to put some work in to tab it and schedule it and make it work for you. But I didn't find it cumbersome to do so. It's all about routine. I honestly haven't encountered one area where the two did not work well together. Hardly any tweaking needed.

[alisoncooks]

We tried WWE 1 this year (1st) and it was not a success.

I do think we tried it too early -- and with a writing-adverse child -- so keep in mind that a child may not be ready for it til 2nd (which may be obvious, but it seems like everyone uses it in 1st.)

 

(FWIW, we decided to go a different route altogether with writing. I'm not 100% sold on copywork/narration/dictation as the sole writing program for the early years... and yes, I've read the books & listened to the audios...)

[MeganW]

We tried WWE 1 this year (1st) and it was not a success.

I do think we tried it too early -- and with a writing-adverse child -- so keep in mind that a child may not be ready for it til 2nd (which may be obvious, but it seems like everyone uses it in 1st.)

.

 

It seems like a lot of people recommend not starting WWE1 before the child is:

- reading well

- handwriting established

- solidly in first grade

- minimum of 7 years old

 

[MeganW]

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[MeganW]

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[MeganW]

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