Time spent on math

[PollyOR]

Is it really necessary for math to take an hour or more every day? :huh: I understand how daily review helps cement knowledge but I'm beginning to wonder why we devote so much of our time to this one subject. My daughter doesn't seem to struggle with math but I believe she "hates" math because it takes so long.

 

We've always just plodded along with the whole "1 lesson/day" idea. Is there a program out there that teaches math without spending hours and hours on problems each week?

 

Our background - 11 yodd is using R&S 4. I like it. Each lesson has review and reading/word problems. Maybe I need to change my attitude towards math instruction and cut down on the number of problems I require of dd.

[Hunter]

You might want to read the new Simply Charlotte Mason math ebook. It advocated less time spent on math.

[jennynd]

Nm

[PollyOR]

Thanks for replying. I was beginning to think I was crazy for bringing this up. :)

 

 

After slogging through math this week, I started to question why we spend so much of our day on it. This particular child had a late start in academics. Last year she had to take a standardized test. I was absolutely sweating it, but with only a few months of prep she was able to do fairly well on the test.

 

Personally I found that one of my weaknesses as a child was forgetting how to do something I had already learned - like dividing fractions. I guess that is the reason math books have so much repetition and drill. They are trying to keep you from forgetting previous skills. I'm hoping there is a more efficient way to review and therefore retain math skills rather than the daily slog through problem after problem.

 

 

You might want to read the new Simply Charlotte Mason math ebook. It advocated less time spent on math.

 

I'll check into this.

[PollyOR]

Hunter, is this the one?

 

Mathematics: An Instrument for Living Teaching

[Lily_Grace]

We spent about 20 minutes a day until 8th grade. Now we do 1-1.5hours. For most of elementary and jr. high we used MUS, which doesn't take long and builds consecutively on each skill learned. Once he had a solid foundation in concrete and abstract concepts we switched over to AOPS to stretch his mind a little.

[NASDAQ]

I spend about an hour a day on math.

[Mandy in TN]

I do not think that an hour of math is excessive at 11. However, I would suggest breaking it down into more than one sitting. Have a period of instruction where you work through the instruction portion of the lesson together. Then, do reading. Do the review section. Then, do spelling. Do the word problems. Then, do history. Do something like this to break up the lesson.

 

Also, if you are comfortable with being able to determine if she understands her math topics based on her daily work, then skip the tests and use those days for fun math exploration through manipulatives (like card games, dominoes, pattern blocks), or Life of Fred, or Simply Charlotte Mason Business math. I don't typically worry about using the tests provided in math curriculum. I am sitting there with him so I know if he gets it or not. If he doesn't get it, we keep working on it. So, instead of a test, find something that explores mathematics in a way that is totally different from the curriculum product that you use most days.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[elizabeth rose]

That's what we spend, on SM and we are still running behind schedule. I'm switching to Rod and Staff next year, I think I'll limit us to 45 min a day. Breaking it up would not work here. My kids want to be done math, not look forward to it later.

[ByGrace3]

We do about 45 minutes with my second grader. I think an hour a day is reasonable. Maybe it could be broken up though and not all at once?

[Susie in MS]

My dd's brain begins to shut down after a few minutes. She already struggles with math. If we spent that long on traditional math there would be rivers of tears pouring from both of us. No way, no how could she handle 1 hour of math a day. Neither all in one sitting or broken up. However I have found that stories and hands on math works for her. So we have been transitioning. I am washing my hands of R&S's endless drill that she does absentmindedly and gets no where with. We are gonna finish up LOF (bks 1-4) and move on to Math Lessons for a Living Education with its stories and hands on fun. Short, sweet and effective.

[Hunter]

Hunter, is this the one?

 

Mathematics: An Instrument for Living Teaching

 

Yes, the ebook is $10.95.

[briansmama]

My ds is only 9, but we spend about 20min on math lessons. Actually, 30min if you count our bean bag math facts we do every morning as a warm up for the day.

 

We also use CM methods and I really try to keep lessons short by stopping before my dc get tired out. I know some kids may need more repetition, but my ds begins to balk if he's asked to repeatedly practice a concept he's already mastered. I often look over the review lessons and choose the most difficult few problems and have him do those, instead of 20 more like those. This works really well for him.

[PollyOR]

My dd's brain begins to shut down after a few minutes. She already struggles with math. If we spent that long on traditional math there would be rivers of tears pouring from both of us. No way, no how could she handle 1 hour of math a day. Neither all in one sitting or broken up. However I have found that stories and hands on math works for her. So we have been transitioning. I am washing my hands of R&S's endless drill that she does absentmindedly and gets no where with. We are gonna finish up LOF (bks 1-4) and move on to Math Lessons for a Living Education with its stories and hands on fun. Short, sweet and effective.

 

In case anyone is interested: Math Lessons for a Living Education

[PollyOR]

I want to thank everyone for their input. I'm reading all of your replies and pondering which direction we should take. :)

[PollyOR]

This is an old thread I started last year.  Apparently 'tis the season for being disgruntled with Math.  I'm reading this thread and rethinking math ... again.  Some people never learn. :001_rolleyes:

[Clear Creek]

Are you still using R&S math?  If you are, I found beginning in book 4 that just doing odds or evens was sufficient.  If my child still needed more practice on the concept I would re-teach the lesson the next day and do the even/odd problems that were skipped the day before.

 

ETA: To answer your original question, Math-U-See has *far* fewer problems per lesson than R&S.

[mommymonster]

I think it might be the season. I am so frustrated with math right now that I want to scream. DS8 threatened to run away if he had to do another page of Singapore 2A. He will almost sit through a lesson if I re-write everything on a blank page of paper. He can't stand visual clutter, even when learning a new skill. I'm trying to find something that we can just do without tears. Did you go the Math Lessons for a Living Education route? 

 

 

[4KookieKids]

My experience, after teaching math at a uni for many years and tutoring even more, is that for *most* people, math brain shuts down right around 45-60 minutes. That's my experience with adults, however, and I'd expect it to be more than what kids can generally do. I flat out refuse to tutor students (adults) for longer than 60 minute sessions because I feel the extra time is so completely counterproductive. Once you get frustrated and feel like you're not getting it (even if you are) or are bored, far less learning takes place. I'd even venture to say that it can hurt the learning that's already taken place...

 

Note that I am not referring to kids who love math and really want to spend more tim on it. I'm referring to the "average" person who's on the fence with math: doesn't hate it but doesn't love it. 

 

I have very limited experience tutoring elementary and middle school aged students, but my gut (and experience with older students) says that 60 minutes a day is too much if she doesn't like doing it for that long. I'd see if she can get the content done with less reading, less practice, less review, or all of the above. If not, then I'd just split lessons up among days and go through the material at a slower pace.

[73349]

Okay, DH (BS in computer science/math minor) and I (considered becoming a math teacher but got bored after Calc 2 and switched to English) just discussed, and we don't think we as students needed an hour a day until 7th grade at the earliest.

 

And that makes sense to me. If you're not getting it, why work that hard all at one time (and probably keep making the same mistakes)? If you are getting it, why would you need a whole hour for something below Algebra I? I mean, it's fine if something is interesting and you want to play with it for a while, but not as required practice and instructional time.

 

I think piano is a good analogy. If you're working on "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star," why practice for an hour a day? Practice until you sound a bit better. That might be four minutes. An hour of TTLS would make you want to set fire to the piano. Now if you've been playing for years and you want to play a twenty-minute piece, of course you have to be able to go through it a few times, or through sections of it several times, in your practice.

[PollyOR]

Are you still using R&S math?  If you are, I found beginning in book 4 that just doing odds or evens was sufficient.  If my child still needed more practice on the concept I would re-teach the lesson the next day and do the even/odd problems that were skipped the day before.

 

ETA: To answer your original question, Math-U-See has *far* fewer problems per lesson than R&S.

 

Yes, we're still using Rod &Staff.  We tried Math Mammoth but she asked to return to R&S.  

 

I really need to let go of my "must do all problems" and "check list" mentality.  We would both be so much happier. 

[Chelli]

My dd10 spends about 20 minutes with me going over the lesson and instruction time. 

Later on her own she spends about 15-20 minutes doing her worksheets that go with the lesson we covered earlier.

Then she spends 15 minutes playing Reflex math on the computer to work on her math facts.

At the most she's spending about 55 minutes doing math in the course of the day, but it all feels different because it's broken into pieces instead of all at one time. Plus it's different presentations of math information (textbook and manipulatives, worksheet, computer-based game).

 

We use Math in Focus.

[PollyOR]

My experience, after teaching math at a uni for many years and tutoring even more, is that for *most* people, math brain shuts down right around 45-60 minutes. That's my experience with adults, however, and I'd expect it to be more than what kids can generally do. I flat out refuse to tutor students (adults) for longer than 60 minute sessions because I feel the extra time is so completely counterproductive. Once you get frustrated and feel like you're not getting it (even if you are) or are bored, far less learning takes place. I'd even venture to say that it can hurt the learning that's already taken place...

 

Note that I am not referring to kids who love math and really want to spend more tim on it. I'm referring to the "average" person who's on the fence with math: doesn't hate it but doesn't love it. 

 

I have very limited experience tutoring elementary and middle school aged students, but my gut (and experience with older students) says that 60 minutes a day is too much if she doesn't like doing it for that long. I'd see if she can get the content done with less reading, less practice, less review, or all of the above. If not, then I'd just split lessons up among days and go through the material at a slower pace.

 

 

Okay, DH (BS in computer science/math minor) and I (considered becoming a math teacher but got bored after Calc 2 and switched to English) just discussed, and we don't think we as students needed an hour a day until 7th grade at the earliest.

 

And that makes sense to me. If you're not getting it, why work that hard all at one time (and probably keep making the same mistakes)? If you are getting it, why would you need a whole hour for something below Algebra I? I mean, it's fine if something is interesting and you want to play with it for a while, but not as required practice and instructional time.

 

I think piano is a good analogy. If you're working on "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star," why practice for an hour a day? Practice until you sound a bit better. That might be four minutes. An hour of TTLS would make you want to set fire to the piano. Now if you've been playing for years and you want to play a twenty-minute piece, of course you have to be able to go through it a few times, or through sections of it several times, in your practice.

 

Bless you, both!  She doesn't love math but I don't really see her struggling.  In fact, she actually does well when it comes to the reading problems.  Most of her mistakes are due to not knowing her math facts really well or forgetting to add what she carried - careless mistakes that I've seen all of my children do.

 

I need to step back and think about what she really needs rather than just doing the next lesson.  

[4KookieKids]

Most of her mistakes are due to not knowing her math facts really well or forgetting to add what she carried - careless mistakes that I've seen all of my children do.

 

 

Not knowing math facts really well is actually the single biggest issue I think younger students struggle with. I'm amazed at the students who struggle at trig or even calculus in college because they continually forget distributive rules, can't manipulate fractions, can't add/subtract/multiply simple numbers without a calculator, or some other such thing that they should've learned earlier. (Yes, I have seen far too many "advanced" students reach for a calculator to compute something like "16+9".) I would definitely "drill" whatever math facts she's weak on, but only in five minute increments (or something that feels "very short" to her) and in anyway you can think of to lift the monotony.

 

If she does well at reading problems, she's ahead of two thirds of the college students I taught. :)

 

I know that I hated having to do a long list of problems (unless it was a competition with other students, because I was just really competitive like that, unfortunately). When I'm tutoring, I usually encourage students to do 2-3 problems from each different "kind" of problem we talked about on a particular day. If they struggle with one "kind" or feel they need more practice, then review the material and do a few more problems of that "kind" and repeat this until they're comfortable with the material.

[RootAnn]

I really need to let go of my "must do all problems" and "check list" mentality.  We would both be so much happier. 

:laugh: Does anyone else see the threads where people are looking for a clear checklist so they can just check it off & feel good about themselves & what their kids are getting done and then one like this and laugh? We're all so different. (I'm kind of in the middle - I make my OWN checklist. So, I know if I "need" to have that box checked or if it is ok for them to skip some problems here or there.)

 

:grouphug: After totally messing up with dd#1 in terms of too much time spent on math, I've realized that more doesn't equal better. Dd#2 spends about 45 minutes on math each day. Dd#3 spends between 30-45 minutes. Ds#1 spends 10-15 minutes daily.

 

Dd#1 does a lesson a day - which takes between 45 minutes and 1 1/4 hrs. She's at the point where there is "classroom instruction" (watches DVD for 45 min) and then has "homework". Some days, she can do the "homework" while watching the lesson. That's about right for her (adjusted) grade level, IMO. When dd#2 gets here, I'll adjust the expectations as they are totally different children when it comes to math!