Kids that read well but hate phonics

[Mergath]

I'm not quite sure what to do with my dd. She's four, and we've been doing Phonics Pathways for awhile now, but as we've worked our way up to silent e words in the book, her reading level has steadily crept upward. She can read pretty much anything I put in front of her. She regularly reads picture books that are at around a third grade level, and the other day she sat down and read the first chapter of The Water Horse with no problem, which Google tells me is a fifth grade book. I wish I could take credit for it, but it's all her- she follows along in whatever readaloud we're doing and seems to memorize every word she sees.

 

I would just keep plugging along with PP, but the problem is that she hates it. When I bring it out, she sighs and puts her face down on the table. When I ask her to tell me the difference between a long "a" and a short "a," she has no idea. But I can write a word like "entranced" on the whiteboard and she instantly reads it. No sounding out or anything.

 

I don't want to force her to keep doing phonics if she hates it, but I know she needs to learn it at some point. Should I put it off for another year? Keep chipping away at it? I don't want to put it off too long, because there's going to come a point where she can read Dickens or whatever, and it's going to seem idiotic to have her reading words like "bike" or "run," you know? :p I was planning on starting a spelling curriculum next year, probably AAS, though I'm not sure which level we'll need. Could I just do that instead?

 

No idea if she's gifted, or just a natural reader, or what, so no help there, lol. When I was in first grade they tested me and I was reading at a post-secondary level, and going through phonics with the other kids was torture. I really don't want to have to put her through that, but I don't want her to not be able to read new words, either.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :)

[Embassy]

My older kids were like that - one more than the other. I quit phonics for one child even though he struggled with it. LOL, I remember he struggled with the concept of silent e when he was reading chapter books around the 5th grade level. I moved to a phonics-based spelling program. By 4th grade he didn't need spelling instruction anymore and is doing fine. For my other child I continued with phonics because he would often guess at words instead of trying to sound them out (he usually could when he tried) and his spelling was quite poor even when his reading skills were quite advanced. In 3rd grade I moved to spelling only and will likely continue spelling for quite some time since spelling is a weaker area.

 

So, my advice to you....it depends on your kid. Is she writing and spelling? If her spelling looks good I might move to a phonics-based spelling program. If not, I might stick with phonics but move to a different curriculum to change things up.

[Joker]

My youngest was an early reader (age 3) and it was all on her own as well. She also hated phonics so I dropped it right after we started homeschooling in 1st grade. There have been times I wonder if it would have helped with her spelling because she struggled a lot there for a while. Since using Megawords, though, she's made huge improvements and is on track.

[Mergath]

 

So, my advice to you....it depends on your kid. Is she writing and spelling? If her spelling looks good I might move to a phonics-based spelling program. If not, I might stick with phonics but move to a different curriculum to change things up.

 

 

She spells well for a preschooler. I've tried a few different phonics programs since she turned three and asked to learn to read, but it always seems like she tolerates the lessons and then goes off and learns to read on her own time, lol. I am completely ineffectual. :p

[Dana]

My son is a self taught reader. He doesn't pronounce words correctly though and spelling reflects this! AAS does a really good job of providing the phonics he needs. It's helped with spelling and it's helped with sounding out words. I also have the book The ABCs and All Their Tricks which I've found to be a useful reference.

 

I'd suggest dropping phonics and starting spelling. I would recommend starting at Level 1 though to get all the sounds, words, and (if you need it) alphabetizing. It also does a good job IMO with the key cards of giving rules to follow...even though it's "often" rather than "this is how it must be". :)

[kiwik]

The teaching phonics based spelling is what I was going to suggest. However NZ stopped using phonics based programmes in the 1970's and most of us still managed to know the difference between rat and rate so I'm not sure a systematic programme is completely necessary. I do wish we'd kept grammar though.

 

 

[boscopup]

I think I'd set phonics aside for now, then use a phonics-based spelling program later. She's 4. She really doesn't need a spelling program NOW (unless she wants one). So I'd just not worry about it at the moment.

 

My oldest taught himself to read, and he didn't start a phonics based spelling program until 1st grade. He's doing well in spelling now, and his reading is through the roof.

 

On a good note - we've had more time to do other stuff in the early years, since we didn't have to worry about learning to read. :D

[Mergath]

I think I'd set phonics aside for now, then use a phonics-based spelling program later. She's 4. She really doesn't need a spelling program NOW (unless she wants one). So I'd just not worry about it at the moment.

 

My oldest taught himself to read, and he didn't start a phonics based spelling program until 1st grade. He's doing well in spelling now, and his reading is through the roof.

 

On a good note - we've had more time to do other stuff in the early years, since we didn't have to worry about learning to read. :D

 

It's not so much that she's begging for a spelling program, but she's always writing stories and notes to people and I get sick of hearing "Mooooommmm... how do I spell vegetable?" eighteen times a day, lol. And she gets frustrated by not being able to spell bigger words. I think what I'll probably end up doing is picking up AAS1 for next year, which will be her K year, and if she doesn't like it or isn't getting it I'll put it away until the year after.

[Mergath]

I dropped phonics once my kids were reading well. I think phonics would be quite boring and pointless for a reader. KWIM?

 

 

Yup. Been there, done that. But I keep hearing this little voice in the back of my head yelling that she's going to have reading issues down the road with newer and harder words if she doesn't know the phonics rules.

[Mergath]

Thanks so much for the advice, everyone! I feel better about dropping the phonics for now and trying AAS next year. Dd is a science nerd, so I think we're going to focus on that for the rest of the year.

[Element]

I never even taught phonics. If they can read and spell well, what's the point? I say let it go.

[Cosmos]

I think I'd set phonics aside for now, then use a phonics-based spelling program later. She's 4. She really doesn't need a spelling program NOW (unless she wants one). So I'd just not worry about it at the moment.

 

Yup, that's what I'd say too.

 

My oldest taught himself to read, and he didn't start a phonics based spelling program until 1st grade. He's doing well in spelling now, and his reading is through the roof.

 

We picked up AAS around third grade, I think. It would have been good to start a little sooner, but definitely not at age four.

 

OP, you could make her a spelling dictionary with all the words she wants to know how to spell. Just add words to it every time she asks for a new word.

[Mergath]

We picked up AAS around third grade, I think. It would have been good to start a little sooner, but definitely not at age four.

 

OP, you could make her a spelling dictionary with all the words she wants to know how to spell. Just add words to it every time she asks for a new word.

 

Oh, I wouldn't start it this year. Either next year or the year after, when she's five or six.

 

Now that I think about it, she does have a child's dictionary laying around somewhere. I should dig that out and teach her how to look up words.

[Cosmos]

Oh, I wouldn't start it this year. Either next year or the year after, when she's five or six.

 

Oh yeah, I got that. I just meant that you have plenty of time.

 

Now that I think about it, she does have a child's dictionary laying around somewhere. I should dig that out and teach her how to look up words.

 

I actually meant just a homemade list. I made one for my ds out of stapled notebook paper with one page for each letter of the alphabet. Every time he wanted to spell a word, we added it to the correct page. He liked using a real dictionary once in awhile but looking words up was hard work until he was quite a bit older.

[boscopup]

I'm just a walking dictionary for my kids still. :lol:

 

Andrew Pudewa (IEW) recommends an electronic dictionary. I think with those, they can do the phonetic spelling, and it will find the right word. At least that's how I assume they work. Using a regular dictionary can be difficult if you don't know how to spell the word in the first place. Pudewa uses the example of trying to find the word "tyrannical" in the dictionary. Most kids won't think of 'y' as the 2nd letter of that word, and when they don't find it under the usual /er/ letters, they'll give up and write "really bad". :tongue_smilie:

[Laura Corin]

I don't want to force her to keep doing phonics if she hates it, but I know she needs to learn it at some point. Should I put it off for another year? Keep chipping away at it? I don't want to put it off too long, because there's going to come a point where she can read Dickens or whatever, and it's going to seem idiotic to have her reading words like "bike" or "run," you know? :p I was planning on starting a spelling curriculum next year, probably AAS, though I'm not sure which level we'll need. Could I just do that instead?

 

 

Why does she need to learn phonics? Calvin learned to read in a similar way and never learned phonics to any degree. He was interested to hear me explaining the silent 'e' rule to Hobbes, because he didn't know it. He's an excellent reader and a natural speller.

 

I'd leave it for now and do a good spelling programme later if she needs it.

 

Laura

[Mergath]

Oh yeah, I got that. I just meant that you have plenty of time.

 

 

 

I actually meant just a homemade list. I made one for my ds out of stapled notebook paper with one page for each letter of the alphabet. Every time he wanted to spell a word, we added it to the correct page. He liked using a real dictionary once in awhile but looking words up was hard work until he was quite a bit older.

 

Yeah, maybe I'll give that a try, thanks for the idea. I tend to go too big and too complicated with stuff like this. I'm working on that. :)

[Mergath]

Why does she need to learn phonics? Calvin learned to read in a similar way and never learned phonics to any degree. He was interested to hear me explaining the silent 'e' rule to Hobbes, because he didn't know it. He's an excellent reader and a natural speller.

 

I'd leave it for now and do a good spelling programme later if she needs it.

 

Laura

 

So she can sound out new words independently later on? I don't really know. I've been reading about hsing since dd was in utero (seriously, it's kind of sad) and one thing that I kept hearing over and over is that Thou Must Teach Old-School, Hardcore Phonics. So I'm all set to teach phonics. Multiple programs on the shelf, quite a few books under my belt on childhood literacy. I was ready to go. And then I get a dd who seems not to need it. The universe is laughing at me.

[Dana]

So she can sound out new words independently later on? I don't really know. I've been reading about hsing since dd was in utero (seriously, it's kind of sad) and one thing that I kept hearing over and over is that Thou Must Teach Old-School, Hardcore Phonics. So I'm all set to teach phonics. Multiple programs on the shelf, quite a few books under my belt on childhood literacy. I was ready to go. And then I get a dd who seems not to need it. The universe is laughing at me.

 

My son did a year in half-day private kindergarten. I imagine they were doing some whole language because when we started to homeschool in first grade, he actively resisted me with sounding out words. Absolute refusal. I fought it some with him, but we had other battles (like me leaving him to do a worksheet page from Singapore and coming back up to find that although he had done the worksheet, he then glued the pages together.... yeah... it wasn't an easy start).

 

Luckily for me, my son started reading on his own (I directly attribute it to wanting to be able to read Calvin and Hobbes on his own). By the second grade, he read Lord of the Rings on his own since I wouldn't do it as a read-aloud after The Hobbit. We never did get any phonics done.

 

He is a very poor speller, although there don't seem to be dyslexic issues. It wasn't until third grade when we switched to AAS that he started getting phonics. It's helped a lot. So I do empathize with you. If your daughter is reading on her own, I don't think phonics is really necessary and she'll get what she needs through AAS IMO.

[Laura Corin]

 

So she can sound out new words independently later on? I don't really know. I've been reading about hsing since dd was in utero (seriously, it's kind of sad) and one thing that I kept hearing over and over is that Thou Must Teach Old-School, Hardcore Phonics. So I'm all set to teach phonics. Multiple programs on the shelf, quite a few books under my belt on childhood literacy. I was ready to go. And then I get a dd who seems not to need it. The universe is laughing at me.

 

But she is already reading unknown words without phonics, isn't she? Calvin sometimes mispronounces words like 'Calliope', but phonics would hinder rather than help that.

 

I do understand, and I did teach Hobbes with phonics because he needed it a bit more. Calvin just didn't.

 

Laura

[Five More Minutes]

Both of my daughters learned to read well ahead of their expected grade levels. I stopped phonics for reading once they didn't seem to get anything out of it, and switched to phonics for spelling.

 

For the one, I didn't really teach her anything with our spelling program, as she is a strong natural speller. However, she adores spelling, so we continue with it.

 

For the other, I am realizing that her strong reading hasn't translated into natural spelling in the same way. She has been figuring out words from context, but when she's presented with them on their own, she can't spell them (or sometimes read them). I'm glad that I'm working through a phonics-based spelling program with her, because I might not have picked up on this pattern as quickly otherwise.

 

I think I'm just agreeing with everyone else: wait until you think she and you are ready, and then try out a phonics-based spelling program. If she is benefiting from it or enjoying the spelling, then great; if she doesn't need it and balks, also great, as you'll have more time to spend on other fun subjects.

[Kathy G]

My middle child never used phonics. She read at about 3 and I never knew how she learned. My other 2 did some phonics but not much. I have very visual spatial children. Do you think that yours is a visual spatial child? If so you may want to check out some of the info on that. Spelling is weaker here, but definitely NO interest in phonics. We like "sequential spelling" and I jokingly count that as our only phonetics book

[Mergath]

But she is already reading unknown words without phonics, isn't she? Calvin sometimes mispronounces words like 'Calliope', but phonics would hinder rather than help that.

 

I do understand, and I did teach Hobbes with phonics because he needed it a bit more. Calvin just didn't.

 

Laura

 

 

Yes, but she does mispronounce some, and if a word is really hard, she'll occasionally just guess. But ninety percent of the words she can read perfectly, I certainly didn't teach her.

[Element]

So she can sound out new words independently later on? I don't really know. I've been reading about hsing since dd was in utero (seriously, it's kind of sad) and one thing that I kept hearing over and over is that Thou Must Teach Old-School, Hardcore Phonics. So I'm all set to teach phonics. Multiple programs on the shelf, quite a few books under my belt on childhood literacy. I was ready to go. And then I get a dd who seems not to need it. The universe is laughing at me.

 

 

I'm glad you brought this up, and here (on the Accelerated board.) What I'm about to type, I can't really say elsewhere without getting the "Oh, woe is you that you have to deal with this obvious non-issue." I'm kind of sad that I never had the opportunity to teach my kids to read. I hear about all these programs and picture myself being on the sofa with a little 5- or 6-year old pointing to words and sounding them out. I mean, sure, we have had our share of cuddly sofa moments, but we never had those "learning-to-read" moments.

 

I read to the kids every night from toddler-hood on, and one day shortly after toddler-hood they read back. Within weeks they could read third grade books and within months they could read anything. I was really happy that it happened so easily (and still am, especially when I hear of others' struggles) but it caught me off guard both times. I was like you, super prepared. I've probably mentioned before that I come from a family of mostly elementary teachers so I was READY.

 

I don't really know how it happened. I didn't limit PBS Kids viewing time, so I'm assuming they learned it from one of those shows, or it could have just been from looking over my shoulder while I was reading. Whatever it was, they can both easily sound out and spell words they've never encountered before, and can usually determine the meaning by using context clues. So I guess I felt like I missed out on the "fun" part of teaching reading and had to go right into the more tedious area of literary analysis.

 

I probably should have put this post into a s/o. I didn't intend for it to become so long. Basically, I just meant: I can relate to your "but.. but... I have programs for this kind of thing!" feelings you may be having right now. It's just another one of those "Welcome to the world of gifted education, where nothing makes sense ever and you can't plan for anything" moments.

[Mergath]

My middle child never used phonics. She read at about 3 and I never knew how she learned. My other 2 did some phonics but not much. I have very visual spatial children. Do you think that yours is a visual spatial child? If so you may want to check out some of the info on that. Spelling is weaker here, but definitely NO interest in phonics. We like "sequential spelling" and I jokingly count that as our only phonetics book

 

 

She might be. When I look at the lists for the different types of learners, she seems like she could be all of them. It's hard to tell at four, when they're still changing so much.

[Mergath]

I'm glad you brought this up, and here (on the Accelerated board.) What I'm about to type, I can't really say elsewhere without getting the "Oh, woe is you that you have to deal with this obvious non-issue." I'm kind of sad that I never had the opportunity to teach my kids to read. I hear about all these programs and picture myself being on the sofa with a little 5- or 6-year old pointing to words and sounding them out. I mean, sure, we have had our share of cuddly sofa moments, but we never had those "learning-to-read" moments.

 

I read to the kids every night from toddler-hood on, and one day shortly after toddler-hood they read back. Within weeks they could read third grade books and within months they could read anything. I was really happy that it happened so easily (and still am, especially when I hear of others' struggles) but it caught me off guard both times. I was like you, super prepared. I've probably mentioned before that I come from a family of mostly elementary teachers so I was READY.

 

I don't really know how it happened. I didn't limit PBS Kids viewing time, so I'm assuming they learned it from one of those shows, or it could have just been from looking over my shoulder while I was reading. Whatever it was, they can both easily sound out and spell words they've never encountered before, and can usually determine the meaning by using context clues. So I guess I felt like I missed out on the "fun" part of teaching reading and had to go right into the more tedious area of literary analysis.

 

I probably should have put this post into a s/o. I didn't intend for it to become so long. Basically, I just meant: I can relate to your "but.. but... I have programs for this kind of thing!" feelings you may be having right now. It's just another one of those "Welcome to the world of gifted education, where nothing makes sense ever and you can't plan for anything" moments.

 

 

Yup. Completely understand. I had this mental image of how hsing was going to go: teaching reading each morning to a smiling dd, having a little party when we finished our reading program and dd could officially read, lol. What's funny is that this keeps happening to me. You'd think I'd have learned by now. When dd was three, I bought AAR pre-level 1. We got to use it for a whole week, then dd learned every letter sound from Starfall in about a day, so I sold AAR. This year, I tried to use PP with her. Suddenly she's reading third grade books with no problem, hates the phonics lessons, and I'm standing there with PP and a handful of Bob books going, "Wha-? What just happened here?" I'm starting to think I should have someone stop me if I try to buy AAS. :p

 

It's sad, I keep missing all the things that are supposed to be the wonderful, defining moments of parenting. I had to have an emergency c-section when dd was three weeks early, so I didn't get to experience actual childbirth, or even contractions. I didn't get to breastfeed for more than a couple weeks because the meds I had to go on made it unsafe. I barely got to teach reading because she learns words through some kind of osmosis. And it's looking like dd is going to be my only because of all my medical problems. *sigh* Nothing ever turns out the way you think it's going to.

[Tanikit]

When I realised my DD was reading, I also thought I had better get her through some phonics - because you "have to" or so I thought. I actually did get her through quite a lot of phonics quite painlessly by writing out the word lists in OPGTR and then asking her to read me 4 words twice a day. It took less than a minute so any sighing was quickly over and I felt I had done my duty and taught her some phonics. Now we are working on spelling. I still expect her to read aloud to me once a day and that way I can pick up if she needs help with anything - mostly it is just vocabulary in harder books that I have had to help with.

 

So it is possible to "do phonics" with a child reluctant to do long boring sessions. Spelling is another way to cover it, but I wouldn't do that til your child shows and interest in writing and until you have covered some handwriting skills (basic letter formation) first too - the reason I say this is that getting children to spell words out loud to you is not really part of useful life - spelling is for written/typed pieces so therefor its best they can write/type first.

[boscopup]

Some kids do need phonics to get to the 4th grade+ multisyllable words. Some kids figure it out on their own. My oldest "paused" at that level for a bit, and then once we learned about syllibication, he zoomed ahead again. It really took very little to make that next jump, but yes, he did need the phonics instruction. He's also needed it for spelling.

 

BUT... There are some accelerated kids who just internalize the phonics without explicit teaching, and they visualize words well, and they don't need explicit phonics instruction. I personally prefer to go ahead and teach it, since it can't hurt. But in the case of a kid reading at an advanced level, I disguise the phonics as "spelling". And if the kid were to zoom ahead in both reading *and* spelling, well beyond the point where phonics is useful, I'd not bother with the phonics anymore. No big deal. :)

[lisabees]

How about printing out a "poster" with some rules and hanging it in the bathroom? Seriously. Change the poster every few weeks. That way, she absorbs the info, there is no resistance, and you will feel better.

 

DD did enjoy phonics games. I agree with the PPs to not push it, though.

 

Enjoy!

[nerd]

If she is reading already so well, phonics is not necessary. She already has internalized many of the phonics rules without being taught. And will be able to decipher/guess new words she encounters. Why do something she hates. Get her to read to you instead, and correct her on any misread words. Probably you will not have to do this for very long.

 

Some children read fluently at 4 without ever being taught any phonics or sight words. Phonics is not needed in many situations if you have a self driven reader.

[Donna]

My youngest was reading fluently at 3yo. I never did phonics with her. (I remembered being bored to tears in 1st grade because I could read and they kept making me do mind-numbing phonics pages with the class in school.) What I did was just keep reading with her and having her read to me....we'd take turns in books because endurance needed work.

 

When she was around 5yo I started a spelling program with her that grouped words by phonetic rules. It was basically for me so I'd know she hadn't missed anything. When she'd worked through the first 12 levels of Spelling Power in 2 years, we dropped spelling as well since she rarely spelled a word incorrectly.

[nerd]

Yes, exactly. There is one boy I know reading fluently since he can remember without ever being taught. Perfect speller. The key I think was having an intense desire to read.

 

Those baby brains are smart. Look how fast a complex thing like speech is learned when there is a strong desire to communicate. Manipulation of vocal cords, mimicking sounds, etc. Reading is simple by comparison. But there needs to be a desire to read for self teaching.

[Melodiya99]

While I do think phonics IS the best way for kids to learn to read, it really is just pointing out the patterns we use to decode our written language. Some kids just figure out those patterns naturally;) Dd was similar to your dd, and I found it helpful to just get her to read aloud to me every once in a while and when she stumbled on a word I'd help her with it and tell her the rule. Non-painful to her and to me:)

[Mergath]

Thanks everyone! You have no idea how reassuring it is to see so many more people not think I'm a crazy, negligent mother, lol. And dd just sat down this afternoon and read the first three chapters of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz to me, so I don't know that there's much more she could even learn, as far as phonics goes. (Yes, I am bragging. I can't help it. They told us with her genetic disorder that she might never even read, period, so we're very proud. :D)

[lisabees]

Thanks everyone! You have no idea how reassuring it is to see so many more people not think I'm a crazy, negligent mother, lol. And dd just sat down this afternoon and read the first three chapters of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz to me, so I don't know that there's much more she could even learn, as far as phonics goes. (Yes, I am bragging. I can't help it. They told us with her genetic disorder that she might never even read, period, so we're very proud. :D)

 

Just want to send you hugs. I truly understand how important this is for you. I, too, have a dd with a genetic disorder that has yet to be formally diagnosed. And, yes, we were told to expect the worst. Low IQ and learning disabilities were the best case scenario. Knowing that dd has a high IQ, learns easily and is a joy for her mean the world to me.

 

So happy for you and your dd. :)

[LucyStoner]

My son was reading fluently before we ever covered any phonics. From ages 4-6 he was always asking how to spell this or that and I was tired of always spelling things aloud. When he was close to age 5, I got him a binder with alphabet dividers and whenever he asked to spell a word, I had him write down the spelling I gave him in "his dictionary". If he asked me for any word a second time that was in his dictionary, I told him to look it up. One day when he was 6 I realized he was not asking me to spell anything. I looked at his writing and it was all spelled correctly. This last year or so, he got interested in spelling bees. He made it to regionals and did fairly well for having stage fright and being one of the youngest spellers. He studies roots, etymology, lexicology, rules etc on his own initiative. He really wants to win the regional spelling bee next year. we will see. I personally would not force phonics on an early reader.

[Katy]

I would do a sort of blended approach- she might not need to know the difference between a long A and a short A, but she needs to know that A makes two sounds and what those sounds are. I'd make flashcards from the rest of your phonics program, up through three syllable blends, and anything she knows the sound of correctly, the first time I'd discard and never make her focus on again. Probably in less than a week she'll know all the rules and you'll be able to stop phonics.

 

At that point, personally I'd go on to study root words in greek or latin or both, so that later when she comes across new words she can figure out the meaning herself, but I've been somewhat focused on long term testing, so YMMV.

[Laura Corin]

Spam reported