ZooRho Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 No, I just asked that question there myself. I don't think they realize that the internet is all knowing, and searchable. ;) lots of funny quotes here today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooRho Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I just went to read all the replies on Sonlight forums. I'm no business expert but it looks to me as if they might be kind of lying. Very confusing stuff. I think you may be right...Judy keeps referring to much of it as "misinformation". Oh my I'm not getting anything done I'm laughing too hard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooRho Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 It seems John's explanation was lost in the board changes, but here's a thread where Colleen was trying to get answers in 2006: https://www.sonlight...read.php?t=2489 yes much of John's stuff is off the forums now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooRho Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I wish I'd saved Sarita's emails after the Catholics were kicked off the forums, when the new elementary and science IG's were rolled out, about how her integrity called for only providing evangelical Christian materials as her Christian mission or something like that. Does anyone know which email I mean? Did anyone save it? Edited to add: I'm not on some vendetta to slander or discredit Sonlight. I was a faithful customer for a long time and I own tons of SL curriculum, but I'm not a current customer. I don't like recent business practices but I don't take them personally and have no axe to grind. I'm just trying to figure this out. I am sure that the reasons given for marginalizing forum members and running them off, and also for making the IG's more fundamentalist evangelical-friendly and the science guides more YE-friendly were all the same reason----namely, that Sarita was at the helm and had to follow her conscience which dictated a stricter adherence to her worldview which she believed to be the correct Christian worldview. Does anybody remember that reasoning and explanation? It came in an email or two, to all the customers on their email list. I'm not one to argue with somebody else's conscience, and I am also aware that CHEC and other hs orgs were making life uncomfy for SL as they deemed SL too liberal and not Christian enough for conventions, etc. So all of that put together explains the updated IG's and science materials. But then we have this. Secularizing SL, removing the religious references, to market it to public schools. Whatever happened to conscience, worldview, Christian mission, the ONLY Christian way to educate children, etc? Is there an inconsistency here or not? I know someone who has all that stuff. you can pm me later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 yes much of John's stuff is off the forums now. I can't get that post of Colleen's to load.... is it still there? I'm not logged in over there I don't think (but this was a board software database error too), but having only purchased one Core years ago I can't get anywhere either. The internet has made the world very small..... they should have learned that by now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Do you want to say why? Well my thoughts started out with "yeah right, snort" until I googled it, and continued on to "you've got to be kidding me". It devolved from there. Speechless seemed to sum it up quite nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 So those that think this is something to stop supporting Sonlight over...why? How is this not purely a good thing for everyone involved? Christians can continue to use Sonlight for their religious matterials. Schools can support homeschool communities by offering classes using Sonlight materials in an inclusive way. I just really don't understand why this is leaving their faith at the door of the church. Or, is the thought that any time something secular enters the house/business/mind of a Christian they are no longer Christian? :iagree: This is a good thing for the schools and for everyone. Sonlight materials and reading matter are well selected. I would much rather the public schools read off of the Sonlight lists than some of the trashy lists that I have seen for the public school setting. (Not all public schools advocate trashy reading, but I have personal experience with local schools whose literature lists are dark, violent, and often poorly-written but chosen for the "issues" they expose). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 :iagree: This is a good thing for the schools and for everyone. Sonlight materials and reading matter are well selected. I would much rather the public schools read off of the Sonlight lists than some of the trashy lists that I have seen for the public school setting. (Not all public schools advocate trashy reading, but I have personal experience with local schools whose literature lists are dark, violent, and often poorly-written but chosen for the "issues" they expose). This isn't for public schoolers. This is for homeschoolers who are getting together once a week (at a church, I believe) but curriculum is being funding by the public school district. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooRho Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 It seems John's explanation was lost in the board changes, but here's a thread where Colleen was trying to get answers in 2006: https://www.sonlight...read.php?t=2489 Did you find this yourself today. It isn't loading now. wonder if it is gone now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooRho Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I can't get that post of Colleen's to load.... is it still there? I'm not logged in over there I don't think (but this was a board software database error too), but having only purchased one Core years ago I can't get anywhere either. The internet has made the world very small..... they should have learned that by now! I couldn't get it to load either. I am logged in there so I don't know the issue. Wonder if they deleted it. They did try to delete much of what John had said in their "clean ups" of the forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooRho Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Well my thoughts started out with "yeah right, snort" until I googled it, and continued on to "you've got to be kidding me". It devolved from there. Speechless seemed to sum it up quite nicely. Did you feel Judy made it worse in her responses to you on Dear Sonlight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Sonlight was founded as it's own company back in 1990. .... Sonlight is, itself, it's own company and not an offshoot at all. Reason #28 not to use Sonlight: confusing it's and its. Really, that is just bad for an educational company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I've never used Sonlight as it doesn't appeal to me and I have no issue with them providing a secular product. However, the way they are using doublespeak to hide the making of this is disturbing to me. Perhaps it helps them satisfy their conscious that it is a separate company and maybe they believe that themselves. I don't understand the need for all the mental gymnastics to justify it. They ought to offer it to other homeschoolers though and I think it a shame that they are not due to some holier than though attitude or something. I'm sure they are reading on here as well. Their history of erasing the past and outright lies reminds me of 1984 way too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Did you find this yourself today. It isn't loading now. wonder if it is gone now. Try this: https://forums.sonlight.com/topic/3313-what-is-inquisicorp-and-why-does-apologia-science-not-generate-a-badge/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Melmichigan's question has been answered: https://forums.sonlight.com/topic/332065-sonlight-name-and-logo-are-on-the-school-district-order-form-and-facebook-page/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Try this: https://forums.sonli...nerate-a-badge/ HA. It's like a walk down memory lane.... I read that when she posted it :laugh: (hmmm, I haven't finished - i wonder if I responded? Don't you just feel wierd when you read old stuff you posted sometimes??? LOL!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 And, in case it gets zapped - i'll copy Rhonda's explanation of it. Can we post that here??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooRho Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Try this: https://forums.sonli...nerate-a-badge/ Sadly John's responses have disappeared into the wild blue yonder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I expect the post of Colleen's to disappear too once someone reads it here..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooRho Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 And, in case it gets zapped - i'll copy Rhonda's explanation of it. Can we post that here??? I don't know what the rules here are about that. I do think on other forums i've been on if it is out there for the public you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 HA. It's like a walk down memory lane.... I read that when she posted it :laugh: (hmmm, I haven't finished - i wonder if I responded? Don't you just feel wierd when you read old stuff you posted sometimes??? LOL!) Did any of John's responses link there work for you, or are they all removed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Did any of John's responses link there work for you, or are they all removed? They all appear to be "Poof!!"-ed Which is why I copied what Rhonda said. At this point, I don't have a lot of intention of buying another Sonlight Core. I pondered Core 5 (or whatever it is called now) fo rmy DD this year, I think she would like it... but there is no way I could handle/do the religious aspect of it right now. I'd go nuts. BUT, I would very much be interested in a secular "Sonlight" (although I'd rather have secular TOG i think), but they are handling this wrong and turning me off to the company. If they had come out and said that (with a PR from Inquisa....) "We have decided to broaden the reach of SLs awesome literature approach to learning. We are working on a secular religious program that will satisfy requests for that product, and meet the needs of families that are unable to use their money to buy Sonlight." Well, something like that anyway.... It would have gone over better with me.... and this whole fiasco would have gone over better with me if they hadn't tried to pull one over on "me". I have a brain, I can read (what you have left up for me to read), don't insult me. ANYWAY..... my only beef is with the deceit. (again?!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Melmichigan's question has been answered: https://forums.sonli...-facebook-page/ They have failed in every way to distinguish the two companies. Here's a job post as another example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 They have failed in every way to distinguish the two companies. Here's a job post as another example. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Dang. I could do that job.... I need a part-time job that pays $21/hr. I swore I'd never do IT stuff again though! LOL!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 They have failed in every way to distinguish the two companies. Here's a job post as another example. SO i'd do a screen shot of the two PDFs that were posted and ask Judy about them.... (I have nothing invested. I can log in and post and do that if you want!) A picture vs a link because maybe that would be a bit more.... in their face?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Well darn it, what is my user name there?!?! Do I have to create a new one?? My email didn't work, but i think I have an old email I can't get to there.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 SO i'd do a screen shot of the two PDFs that were posted and ask Judy about them.... (I have nothing invested. I can log in and post and do that if you want!) A picture vs a link because maybe that would be a bit more.... in their face?! I don't think that's necessary, Tracey. Between here and there, all the pieces are available for anybody who wants to sort it out and connect the dots. We don't want a board war or to rub anybody's face in their bad decisions. At least I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I don't think that's necessary, Tracey. Between here and there, all the pieces are available for anybody who wants to sort it out and connect the dots. We don't want a board war or to rub anybody's face in their bad decisions. At least I don't. I think you are misunderstanding what the point would be, I am truly wondering what Judy's response would be because her answer does not answer the issue. It isn't a "board war" with there versus here, it is circumventing the true question. Why is the SL logo on these forms? It was like Judy didn't open the links and see what was being asked.... isn't the saying, "A picture is worth a thousand words."? That is the "in their face" part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I don't think that's necessary, Tracey. Between here and there, all the pieces are available for anybody who wants to sort it out and connect the dots. We don't want a board war or to rub anybody's face in their bad decisions. At least I don't. I linked the same pdf files and facebook page that I linked here. You can feel free to ask whatever question you want about the forms, but I don't think you will get anything else from them on the topic. They aren't going to answer the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Groovy.... I won't post it. I will take the time to email them, including the screen shots. I won't expect an answer - but hey, at least I can let them know how I feel and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ByGrace3 Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I admit I am baffled by SL. It seems they can't decide where they stand. Last year they purge forums and change up IGs adding books that lean one direction. Then earlier this week I read a blog post of theirs asking readers which kind of science they wanted. (Y/e; O/E, evolution). Huh? We are now asking so we can start believing what we can sell. No matter what you believe on the issue, the wishy washy consumerism is awful. And now this? I don't have an issue with secular materials. I do have an issue with people talking out of both sides of their face. First, you are dedicated to only selling materials that are for God's glory, then you change your mind for the almighty $. Again, it's ok to change your mind, but don't lie about it and act like it's not happening. I am not a fan of deceit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I was not around last year so I have no first hand processing of that fiasco - I'm kind of sad, because it probably would have purged them from my brain always. Again, it's ok to change your mind, but don't lie about it and act like it's not happening. I am not a fan of deceit. That is huge in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebrindam Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 <smile> really? I honestly find the condescending tone of the "<smile>" to be the worst part of those ridiculous responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmom10 Posted March 21, 2013 Author Share Posted March 21, 2013 Oh the semantics! When it is convenient (or needed, for legal reasons) they are separate companies, that really have nothing to do with one another. :eyeroll: I think I have figured out that the ONLY thing that they are claiming is "Sonlight" is the IG's and their mission statement, neither of which are being used by Cloverleaf- so therefore, Cloverleaf isn't using Sonlight, even though it is the Sonlight logo plastered all over and the district is advertising it as Sonlight. (Oh, and the CFO is quoted as saying it is Sonlight- while Sonlight denies he even works for them)(Will Sonlight send in a letter to the editor asking them to remove their name from that newspaper article that is full of misinformation and lies?) Sonlight is only taking credit for the IG's. Everything else is just distributed by them, therefore, not really Sonlight. Clear as mud? And, BTW, when I buy a Honda- I don't see the Acura logo plastered all over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Did you feel Judy made it worse in her responses to you on Dear Sonlight? Well if Brightflash Learning will be ready no earlier than 2014, what is it that the school district is using until then? If it looks like Sonlight, and is labeled as Sonlight, but it's not Sonlight, what is it? Because it doesn't say InqusiCorp anywhere on anything from the school district or the ACLU. ETA: This could have been handled in such a positive way, to the benefit of both companies, instead of this mess. I don't think they are helping anything with the comments so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildwood Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Well if Brightflash Learning will be ready no earlier than 2014, what is it that the school district is using until then? If it looks like Sonlight, and is labeled as Sonlight, but it's not Sonlight, what is it? Because it doesn't say InqusiCorp anywhere on anything from the school district or the ACLU. This could have been handled in such a positive way, to the benefit of both companies, instead of this mess. No, I don't think they are helping anything with the comments so far. It IS Sonlight that they (Cloverleaf) are using now but, Sonlight won't admit it. The pdf makes it so clear---it's the same SL product that is available on their website---there are even direct links to the SL product website from the Cloverleaf materials pdf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennay Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I really don't see this as any different from Alpha Omega/Switched on Schoolhouse and as referenced above Angelicum/Great Books Academy. I really don't get the outrage on this issue. I use SL and have been on the boards there for a long time and do understand the frustration with other issues. But not this one. Definitely a PR problem- I don't think Judy gets full information sometimes and as a company they need better communication skills. But I don't see outright deceit. As a pp poster mentioned, I think some grace should be extended. I wish I always explained things well under pressure and never made public mistakes. I'm supposedly not one of the "right kind of Christians" but I'll happily continue using SL in my homeschool, making adjustments where I see fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 So what materials are specific property of Sonlight curriculum and not intellectual property of InquisiCorp, since John's comments on this were removed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down_the_Rabbit_Hole Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 So this Inquisicorp/Brightflash/SL business is all of 40-50 people from what I can gather. SL has trouble getting the new IGs out on time when big changes take place, now this company is branching out to rewrite the SL IGs to remove anything relating to God and the Bible. How are they going ton handle all the changes to the SL IGs and the new Brightflash ones? And the more I read about SL and all, the more I am feeling mislead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmom10 Posted March 21, 2013 Author Share Posted March 21, 2013 So what materials are specific property of Sonlight curriculum and not intellectual property of InquisiCorp, since John's comments on this were removed? If I am understanding correctly, only the IG's and mission statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyeska Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Try this: https://forums.sonli...nerate-a-badge/ According to the thread linked here, Inquisicorp puts out the Apologia schedules. But here is a cut and paste from the 2013 catalog. A course from Apologia Educational Ministries: learn to think scientifically. Includes experiments and a unique Sonlight schedule Edited to add: sorry about the small font...I left it as-is when I pasted it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy M Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Well, I'm really late to comment since there are four pages. But it's only a day old, so I don't feel that bad. I think the frustration that many are feeling comes down to the word "allegiance." When Jesus said, "He who is not with me is against me." He was saying that there is no such thing as neutrality. That is terribly offensive to contemporary sensibilities, but its foundational to the faith summarized in the first syllable of the company's name that we are discussing. If they want to sell books to the public school, fine. As long as no action was done or motive was held that brought that ultimate commitment status under question. It looks however, as if they made curriculum changes because some were uncomfortable with the first syllable. However small it may sound, our deepest commitments are often shown in the little choices we make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I really don't see this as any different from Alpha Omega/Switched on Schoolhouse and as referenced above Angelicum/Great Books Academy. I really don't get the outrage on this issue. I use SL and have been on the boards there for a long time and do understand the frustration with other issues. But not this one. Definitely a PR problem- I don't think Judy gets full information sometimes and as a company they need better communication skills. But I don't see outright deceit. As a pp poster mentioned, I think some grace should be extended. I wish I always explained things well under pressure and never made public mistakes. I'm supposedly not one of the "right kind of Christians" but I'll happily continue using SL in my homeschool, making adjustments where I see fit. Jennay, I'm not remotely outraged but I can't help noticing that Sarita Holzmann revamped her entire curriculum and uninvited long-term customers to be part of her forums because of a calling from God to be more authentically evangelical through her business/ministry (businesstry?), but the whole time she had another company devoted to excising said curriculum of all religious references. She can't have it both ways. If she wants to also sell secular curriculum, that is fabulous and the homeschooling community will thank her. But she can't do that while browbeating Christians into supporting one very narrow Christianesque worldview as the only right way (and the Sonlight way!) at the same time. It is manipulative and deceptive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 According to the thread linked here, Inquisicorp puts out the Apologia schedules. But here is a cut and paste from the 2013 catalog. A course from Apologia Educational Ministries: learn to think scientifically. Includes experiments and a unique Sonlight schedule Edited to add: sorry about the small font...I left it as-is when I pasted it. See, I would think that would be SL because of religious content. Someone needs to clarify this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Someone knew about the interview, and that it would probably mention SL, they could have been proactive in what they did, instead of being reactive. They don't operate well reactively. For me at this point, given what apparently went on (and would probably be why I don't have an account there any longer) in the recent past - I should just purge them from my radar. Faith wise we don't mesh, and I'm bothered by their lack of ability to handle this stuff well. What do old Core 6 IG's go for? LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Jennay, I'm not remotely outraged but I can't help noticing that Sarita Holzmann revamped her entire curriculum and uninvited long-term customers to be part of her forums because of a calling from God to be more authentically evangelical through her business/ministry (businesstry?), but the whole time she had another company devoted to excising said curriculum of all religious references. She can't have it both ways. If she wants to also sell secular curriculum, that is fabulous and the homeschooling community will thank her. But she can't do that while browbeating Christians into supporting one very narrow Christianesque worldview as the only right way (and the Sonlight way!) at the same time. It is manipulative and deceptive. It would seem to me that she at least needs to not be on the board of Inquisa____ . It seems quite hypocritical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooRho Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Did any of John's responses link there work for you, or are they all removed? none worked for me. I'm sure the thread is GONE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooRho Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I honestly find the condescending tone of the "<smile>" to be the worst part of those ridiculous responses. People have told him that before, he doesn't get it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I only made it through the first page of posts, but we are a Christian family who has used Sonlight Cores for five years. I think it is fabulous that they are now offering their curriculum without religious content to the public schools. History and literature are SL's strengths, and their material are superior to most of the public school offerings. Not everyone can homeschool, so I am glad that public school kids will get an opportunity to use interesting history and literature materials. Let us not forget that Sonlight is a company, a business, not a religious charity or some such. They are allowed to change their own curriculum in any way they want and market it to whomever they want. I have no issue with it. Sonlight is a curriculum company, not a person and not a religion. I like the materials so I purchase them. I don't dig too much into the personal convictions of the founders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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