Why, why, why is the only science text used in co-ops and tutorials in my area...

[5LittleMonkeys]

the one I dislike for it's YE views!!!

 

Yes, I'm yelling. I do not believe in YE, my dc, through their own (albeit limited) research do not believe in YE. Yet, in my desire to provide them with better instruction in science, actual lab experience, and the opportunity to work and interact with other dc, I've enrolled them in a tutorial for next year (General Science and Chemistry) that uses Apologia. I can't add an emoticon on my iPad, but if I could it would be the one cursing and banging it's head on a brick wall!

 

It seems it's the only science book in exsistance where I live! My oldest especially, really needs someone knowledgable to teach her science for the rest of highschool, and there are circumstances surrounding this situation that actually made it affordable for me to do this...I just wish it wasn't THAT publisher.

 

Sometimes...often, I really dislike homeschooling in the south.

 

Oh, and this is just a vent...JAWM. I mean no offense to those who do believe inYE or to those who like Apologia. I think it's great that you all have science resources that align with your beliefs...I just wish I did too.

[Crimson Wife]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

It is too bad that there isn't a co-op out there using Mr. Q's Advanced Chemistry. Mr. Q has a "neutral" POV (which really shouldn't be an issue in a chemistry class anyways).

[GinaPagnato]

I think having YE/OE views in the chem text doesn't matter at all. Ds is on module 11 and there hasn't been any mention of this. General Science, yes, but with the chem book it's a non-factor.

[boscopup]

Have you talked to the instructor to ask about the YE vs. OE thing? It may not even come up in a chemistry course.

[kiwi mum]

I think having YE/OE views in the chem text doesn't matter at all. Ds is on module 11 and there hasn't been any mention of this. General Science, yes, but with the chem book it's a non-factor.

 

 

Yes, we are on module 14 and I can't think of anything so far that would be objectionable in the Chemistry text. Can anyone enlighten me?

[Dmmetler]

We run into that as well past elementary school level. Through 5th grade (and there's a once a month supplemental lab for middle school), there's the Mad Science franchise, which offers nice little hands-on classes that work well for younger DC, but for high school, it's Apologia all the way. Same with math-once you get to Algebra, all the homeschool programs use is Saxon-which is about a -3 on my DD's interest level for math.

[elegantlion]

I think it's popular because it's written to homeschoolers, it has all the components you need to run a co-op or for a family, and it's affordable for most. I remember in our early days of homeschooling finding Apologia and being kind of excited there was a science written for homeschoolers. We won't use it now because we prefer totally secular texts, but as a newbie it was kind of cool, like seeing a Rainbow Resource catalog for the first time.

[Mom22ns]

I planned to use all secular science after 7th grade, but broke down and used Apologia Chem with ds this year and really liked it. We are VERY OE and it was not offensive. I don't remember if it ever came up, but it was certainly not a prominent topic.

[dbmamaz]

i was at the rare inclusive homeschooling conference in the south, and the session was a panel discussion (i dont remember the specific subject of the panel discussion) . One mom said she was struggling because her daughter's coop started a new science curriculum for (middle or high school, i forget - in fact, it may have been a panel about teaching high school) and one of the moms on the panel said how much she LOVED appologia, it was rigorous, and if you disagree iwth the POV, its a great opportunity to discuss your beliefs with your child

 

um, but that doesnt help you teach your child about evolutionary biology, does it.

 

I took the mom aside later and gave her some clues on where to find secular sources. i totally agree its frustrating - luckily we werent really looking for coops. We've struggled to find any science curriculum for high school, and have found none that we love.

[Lale]

I teach our local homeschool Chemistry class using the Apologia text. There are several discussions throughout the book that are clearly from a YEC point of view. Module 12 when it talks about extrapolation and Darwin, and in Module 13 when talking about entropy and evolution. Those are just a couple of examples that come to mind. I don't go over these things in class as we just don't have the time . However, if it is covered in the module, there is usually a question on the test about it (on the Module 12 test the students are asked to explain how Darwin made a mistake in evolutionary theory).

 

I do think the author does a good job of explaining the concepts, especially if a student is going through the text on their own. My biggest concern about the book (aside from its YEC point of view) from a teacher's perspective is that 1) it doesn't give enough practice, so I have to create a lot of my own practice problems, and 2) some of the concepts are taught in a confusing order IMO. For example, the students learn how to name compounds early on but don't learn how to write formulas from names until much later.

[Saddlemomma]

You can easily incorporate your OE views and create a wonderful discussion and further research projects by doing so. That's basically we I've done with my dd.

 

I don't have a preferred view of either. I believe that God created.....that's all I need to know. I don't have the knowledge or capability of knowing how or when God created. When you think about it, God created time. Was His time measured during the creation the same way we measure time today? We have no way of knowing. So...with that perspective we jumped into the creation of the universe this past fall.

 

I provided my dd with materials for the Big Bang Theory from the library; Young Earth Creationist information from http://answersingenisis.org, and our science text; and for Old Earth Creationism, I pulled info from http://www.godandscience.org/; http://www.str.org/site/PageServer; and http://www.reasonablefaith.org/ We also read passages from the book: It Couldn't Just Happen, by Lawrence O. Richards.

 

What wonderful, deep discussions we had about the three views! In the end, we came to the point of view that we'll never know the definite answer to that question because 1) We're not God; 2) We weren't there and 3) It's one of those things we'll have to ask when we get to Heaven!

 

This could work with Chemistry as well. It just takes a little extra research work on your part, but it's well worth it. Explore all avenues. Set up a debate between you and the kids each taking a stance of one of the views for the experiment you're doing. How would a YE Creationist interpret the outcome of this experiment, an OE Creationist, or an Evolutionist? You could probably find the answers in the links I provided or let them dig for the answer.

 

This gets your kids familiar with all views and will only strengthen their ability to defend that which they hold to be true.

[Amethyst]

I have always absolutely refused to participate in "science" classes that use YE books. Won't do it. Nope.

[NASDAQ]

I would have a lot of trouble using a science book published by a company that endorsed YE views, especially at the high school level.

 

I just couldn't trust that they were reliable reporters. And my own science knowledge isn't deep enough to evaluate that on a page-by-page basis.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Thanks for everyone's responses...I was teaching at my co-op today so wasn't able to respond as the responses were coming in.

 

Thanks to the passage of time, a good night's sleep, and the collective views and opinions here, I've calmed down and can think more clearly and logically about this. Just to address a few points:

• First, thanks for the hugs. :)
  
• Those that responded at the end that they would never use YE material...I get that conviction. I used to say never too. However, when faced with the task of teaching your dc a subject that you feel completely incompetent to teach you (I) have to weigh whether it's worth it to give them a sub-par education but enforce the decision to not expose your dc to beliefs which you don't hold, OR allow them an opportunity to be taught with a text that, while it holds opposing views on the age of the earth, does give a relatively solid education in the subject, and has the added benefit of allowing your dc to participate in amazing lab experiences with other dc. (Something that I CAN NOT for various reasons provide.) It's a hard decision and one I wish I didn't have to make.
  
• I will be adding in a lot of extra discussion of certain POVs prior to their tutorial class each week. We aren't opposed to the idea that YE is possible...we just feel, based on the evidence, that it is improbable. We also don't feel that our view one way or the other has any bearing on our faith in God, however we have been exposed to many people who feel it does...to the point of suggesting that we aren't Christian if we are OE. It has just really soured us and made us gun shy of discussing it with people outside of our own home.
  
• Thank you for the links up thread. I will look into them. We have talked pretty extensively about different POVs; I suppose before they start these classes it would be a good idea to re-visit these discussions.
  
• I'm determined for this to be a good experience for my dc, regardless of how much YE POV is discussed in class, which I know won't be as prevalent in the Chemistry as I was worried there might be. I'm going to make this a learning experience and try not to allow my bad experiences with other people to cloud things.
  
• This is my main lingering concern: I don't so much mind my dc being exposed to YE views in text or in a lecture, but I worry about equipping my dc to talk with anyone who wants to try to persuade them of YE. I want them to be able to defend their views respectfully, but, honestly, some people get downright rude and pushy. I suppose my dc have been pretty sheltered and have never had to defend themselves in such a situation. I don't think anyone at the tutorial will necessarily do this, but there are many in the tutorial who do hold devout YE views..I guess I just worry.
  

Thanks for listening and for helping. :)

[Mom22ns]

I teach our local homeschool Chemistry class using the Apologia text. There are several discussions throughout the book that are clearly from a YEC point of view. Module 12 when it talks about extrapolation and Darwin, and in Module 13 when talking about entropy and evolution. Those are just a couple of examples that come to mind. I don't go over these things in class as we just don't have the time . However, if it is covered in the module, there is usually a question on the test about it (on the Module 12 test the students are asked to explain how Darwin made a mistake in evolutionary theory).

 

I do think the author does a good job of explaining the concepts, especially if a student is going through the text on their own. My biggest concern about the book (aside from its YEC point of view) from a teacher's perspective is that 1) it doesn't give enough practice, so I have to create a lot of my own practice problems, and 2) some of the concepts are taught in a confusing order IMO. For example, the students learn how to name compounds early on but don't learn how to write formulas from names until much later.

 

 

I would have had a big problem with the test question on Darwin, but we used only the quarterly exams and it wasn't there. In fact, I just went back and double checked to make sure I didn't miss it.

 

I do respectfully disagree that there aren't enough practice problems. If you do all the problems included, practice problems and extra practice problems, it is quite a lot. I do agree with the order being odd. It was very different from the order we had used for any other Chemistry, but it did work for us.

 

I totally sympathize with the OP. One reason I've never considered coops in this area is that they all use Apologia. While I did use Chemistry, I would absolutely NOT use Biology. It isn't what it says, it is how much is missing that I have a big problem with. I can discuss the misinformation, but there is just too much to supplement. We use Miller Levine for Biology and it is very workable for a non-science mom!

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

I would absolutely NOT use Biology. It isn't what it says, it is how much is missing that I have a big problem with. I can discuss the misinformation, but there is just too much to supplement. We use Miller Levine for Biology and it is very workable for a non-science mom!

 

My oldest, dd15, used Miller\Levine Biology at home this year. She REALLY liked it. Unfortunately science is not my area of expertise or even my area of real understanding. Due to many factors we haven't done near enough labs...I'm going to purchase some dissections for her to finish up with. She says she learned a lot between the book and extra lectures from Kahn, but I know it could have been so much better with someone who knew what they were doing and talking about. With 5 dc I just don't have enough time in the day to devote enough time to every single subject.

 

However, if I do continue to have my dc take these courses at this tutorial dd14, my second oldest, will eventually take biology there...because as I mentioned, YE views aside I know they will get a better science education at the tutorial than they will at home. I know you say that there is too much to add in, but if you absolutely HAD to supplement the Apologia biology what would you add from the Miller\Levine?

[NCMom]

the one I dislike for it's YE views!!!

 

Yes, I'm yelling. I do not believe in YE, my dc, through their own (albeit limited) research do not believe in YE. Yet, in my desire to provide them with better instruction in science, actual lab experience, and the opportunity to work and interact with other dc, I've enrolled them in a tutorial for next year (General Science and Chemistry) that uses Apologia. I can't add an emoticon on my iPad, but if I could it would be the one cursing and banging it's head on a brick wall!

 

It seems it's the only science book in exsistance where I live! My oldest especially, really needs someone knowledgable to teach her science for the rest of highschool, and there are circumstances surrounding this situation that actually made it affordable for me to do this...I just wish it wasn't THAT publisher.

 

Sometimes...often, I really dislike homeschooling in the south.

 

Oh, and this is just a vent...JAWM. I mean no offense to those who do believe inYE or to those who like Apologia. I think it's great that you all have science resources that align with your beliefs...I just wish I did too.

 

 

Do we live in exactly the same location, lol?

 

Georgia

[Lale]

I do respectfully disagree that there aren't enough practice problems. If you do all the problems included, practice problems and extra practice problems, it is quite a lot. I do agree with the order being odd. It was very different from the order we had used for any other Chemistry, but it did work for us.

 

 

My students receive a grade on the review questions and practice problems so I like for them to be fairly confident and proficient in the math before they get to those. So in that case, only doing the OYO problems are not enough IMO. But otherwise, yes, I do think there are plenty of problems to work with. I can't speak to the Biology curriculum, but to encourage the OP, the Chemistry textbook really is very good. My degree is in Chemistry and I was a high school science teacher in a former life, so the tone of the book and the order in which things are taught have taken some getting used to. And again, we do not have time in class to talk about YE/OE issues...I am too busy making sure the kids are conducting the labs safely and that they understand stoichiometry. :001_smile:

[Mom22ns]

I know you say that there is too much to add in, but if you absolutely HAD to supplement the Apologia biology what would you add from the Miller\Levine?

 

In the Macaw text, I would just add Unit 5: Evolution. There are 4 chapters 16-19. If you don't have that much time, I'd consider Ch 16 and 18 the most important to add to a YE curriculum.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

In the Macaw text, I would just add Unit 5: Evolution. There are 4 chapters 16-19. If you don't have that much time, I'd consider Ch 16 and 18 the most important to add to a YE curriculum.

 

I figured it would be Unit 5...that was dd15's favorite unit, and the one that I planned to go over when dd14 did biology. :) I'm glad to hear you confirm it though.

 

As an aside - There were other library books that dd15 read with that unit but non that she liked as well as one about Darwin's personal life...I think it was called Charles and Emma. Dd said she enjoyed it, but I honestly didn't get a chance to preview it. DD15 said that it made her look at Unit 5 differently though...humanized the man behind such controversy. I'll have to remember to take a look at it for dd14 too.

[cbollin]

a few more (((hugs))) here. just trying to encourage you a bit on some of this. I'm in YE leanings, and use apologia. I have no idea how the co-op will handle any of those topics. But I just wanted to encourage you a bit on the worry you shared " ...to the point of suggesting that we aren't Christian if we are OE. It has just really soured us and made us gun shy of discussing it with people outside of our own home."

more (((hugs))) one of the reasons that we like apologia was that even though we tend to lean toward YE, we wanted our children to be respectful toward OE and those who lean toward it and not got that route of that point you shared. That bothers us too when some Christians get like that toward each other and make it a hill to die on. Maybe my experience is different, but we think the way the text in apologia were written in general really helped us to meet the goal to be respectful toward those who examined the evidence and concluded differently and see it as academic thoughts vs a you have to believe like me to be in my faith.

 

I hope that kind of thing is your experience with the text and with the co-op. by the way... my oldest is enjoying your siggy line quote. she's been reading that series recently and told me "mom, I get it with financial planning and why to start so young... It's like the same reason the Restaurant at the end of the universe is free. right? " LOL LOL LOL.

[JenC3]

Yep, the south loves Apologia. We are using the Anatomy Book next fall along with supplements, but I don't like the other books and won't use them. I wouldn't particpate in a co-op usin it b/c I think they would rely too much on it, instead of using it as a supplement.