When do you know if AoPS is a bad fit? And do you need AoPS math for a science career?

[lisabees]

Ds13 is taking his first AoPS course - the Algebra 2 online course. He has always breezed through school with almost 100s in everything, so things come very easily to him. He has never been a mathy kid, though - he's never loved numbers and craved more. But he has fallen in love with physics and recently completed Derek Owens' Algebra 1 class. He and I thought it was time to try AoPS. He enjoys Alcumus and liked the idea of a challenging math curriculum.

 

Fast forward only a week and he is already feeling defeated. He doesn't mind the hours, but he feels behind already. I told him it was about the process, but it is driving him crazy that he is already on Chapter 3 without grasping certain concepts in Chapters 1 and 2.

 

Is this a sign of a kid who isn't used to working through a problem? A kid who is scared of getting less than 100 percent? Or is this a kid who will would do better with a traditional math program? He sees physics/astronomy in his future - should he stick with AoPS?

 

I would like to suggest that he work through the book with me, at his own pace, but I fear I won't be of any help!

[EKS]

No, you don't need AoPS to be a successful scientist. It takes a certain kind of kid to thrive with AoPS, and if your son needs a more traditional program, that is perfectly fine.

 

However, it could also simply be the pace of the online class. It's really, really fast. I wish they'd offer versions of their online courses with a slower pace as it is the only thing that is keeping me from signing my son up.

[LittleIzumi]

I've always read that the online AoPS classes are VERY fast. I wouldn't want to do one for the first exposure to AoPS.

[regentrude]

1. You do not need AoPS math to be a scientist. But you need to have a solid math preparation, and you need to like math. If you don't like math, I can not imagine being successful with taking all the higher math courses that are required.

 

2. AoPS classes are extremely fast paced. The class may be a poor fit with a student who could succeed with AoPS and have great time using just the book and working on his own pace.

 

3. the AoPS program is discovery based. This is not a learning style that fits every student.

 

4. You say your student began with the AoPS Algebra 2 class. I would imagine this to be very hard, because he did not have algebra 1 the AoPS way. I am sure his program was solid, but AoPS algebra 1 covers more things than the traditional curriculum, and it does so in more depth with more challenging problems. Jumping into AoPS by taking the second class in a sequence may be what causes the problem.

 

5. He will not get 100% in AoPS. The creators of the program are very clear that a program where the student always gets 100% is too easy and does not challenge the student adequately (google Richard Ruszyk and "tyranny of the one hundred percent").

 

We have been using AoPS for several years, working just through the books, no class, and it has been fantastic. The depth of conceptual understanding the program teaches is not just a great foundation for the math required in physics, but also for the way of thinking and the approach to problem solving. But it is not the program for every student.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

AoPS' algebra 2 is usually a mix of the end of Algebra 1 and the beginning of Algebra 3. So yes, I could see someone starting in Algebra 2. But it's starting in the middle of their Algebra book, in chapter 13 if memory serves me right. So he's really missing chapters 1 to 12.

[nandmsmom]

Starting in the middle and doing the online course would be pretty challenging. AoPS teaches so differently. It is absolutely not a necessity for anyone, just a good, solid program. The online class goes so fast from what I've heard. He would probably be fine if he was able to slow down and grasp concepts first.

[kiwik]

I've read a lot of threads where people said the were doing AOPS but not the on line version because it went too fast. Maybe since it has only been a week you could switch courses.

[8filltheheart]

Like others have stated, the online classes move at a very rapid pace. If your ds is not used to problem-solving strategies that are used in math competitions or AoPS, dropping back to the alg 1 class might not be a bad choice before making the decision that AoPS is not a good fit. It would be a great review of alg and get him used to the AoPS approach with material that he should start off feeling confident about. It is possible that his prior curriculum and AoPS ended alg 1 in different areas.

 

As far as is AoPS necessary? No. But, having completed AoPS will give your child an advantage in possessing incredibly strong problem-solving skills and exposure to a much broader range of mathematical concepts covered in their courses vs. typical alg/pre-cal/cal courses. Ds has found upper level maths much less difficult than his AoPS courses.

 

Problem-solving will also help with thinking through how to approach physics problems. It is a skill that is not confined to approaching math.

 

All that said, he can be completely successful without AoPS. It is not a program for every student. I just wouldn't throw in the towel after 1 week in a class that is probably not the best fit.

[redsquirrel]

If he is in Algebra 2, then I am assuming he finished Algebra 1 and possibly geometry in another program. It might make more sense for him to continue with what has been successful for him.

 

 

If he wants to take an AoPS class, it might make sense for him to take "Introduction to Counting and Probability" and then "Introduction to Number Theory"

[mommymilkies]

My 12 yo is very mathy and a VSL. She loved math and was very good at it. My dh is a math whiz chemist. I thought it would be perfect for dd. NOPE. She hated it with a fiery passion. It was too wordy, and it just didn't even sit well with dh who lives and breathes math. He looked through it and told me to sell it. I agreed. I know it works well for some kids, but not for *every* kid. And not even for math loving kids. Dd loved math until their Pre-algebra book. Now she hates it and it has sent her back a lot. It's not because she "doesn't like math" or isn't mathy. It's just not for every kid.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Lisa, did he have a chance to go through the end of chapter reviews & some of the challengers from the first half of the book before he started the Alg 2 class? If he did, did he find the material familiar? I'm asking because I think I remember talking about this with you a little while ago.

 

You can drop at any time before the third class, so I'd give it at least that long if you're not there yet. It IS a big change from other curricula, & can be overwhelming at the beginning.

 

Sure, he doesn't have to have AoPS to make it in a STEM field. People were successfully math educated for a long time before AoPS came on the market! but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water quite yet. I'd give him a trial of self-studying with just the books if you do decide to drop the online course. The solution guides really are that great; he could do it himself with your oversight. And lots of us are here if he should ever want to ask about a problem or two.

 

I also like a previous poster's idea to try a C&P or Number theory online class for starters instead of the algebra if he and you are still interested in giving the online classes a try. My dd started at age 12/13 with the Adv MathCounts/AMC8 (much less homework!) and then the Intro Number Theory. It worked well for her (another vsl type learner).

 

Good luck!

[lisabees]

Lisa, did he have a chance to go through the end of chapter reviews & some of the challengers from the first half of the book before he started the Alg 2 class? If he did, did he find the material familiar? I'm asking because I think I remember talking about this with you a little while ago.

 

 

Hanging my head in shame, Kathy. Ds went over some of the end of chapter reviews for only two days. The AoPS class was starting the day he completed Algebra 1 and he didn't want to wait until summer to take a class. Looking back, it was the wrong thing to do. He likes math, he wants to keep moving forward in math, but he just wasn't prepared for the pace and the discovery method.

 

I really, really appreciate everyone's thoughtful responses. I also thank those who shared their experiences.

 

Regentrude, I read ds the beginning of Richard Rusczyk's talk which discussed kids who are just like him. It certainly struck a chord in both of us. In addition to grappling new concepts in a new way, ds cannot get past that tyranny of the 100%. I will read the transcript in its entirety and see if it offers some suggestions!

 

Thanks again!

[Nscribe]

If your son really likes math, the advice to move to the Number Theory or Counting and Probability might be wise. What you don't want is an otherwise successful and enthusiastic math student to develop some sense that they really just are not good enough. It would be untrue and might cheat the world of yet another talented but discouraged young mind.

 

This would be a great time in addition to the tyranny transcript, to make sure it clicks with him that long before AoPs was developed, people understood math and managed to accomplish astounding things with that understanding.

 

AoPs is a way of approaching and engaging learning math, but it is not the only way to do so successfully or enthusiastically. It is a method, with a distinct scope and sequence. I love the program, but I don't assume those who thrive in it are good and worthy in math while those who don't are not. Please don't hang your head in shame. Your son did something really important for an effective learner, he recognized quickly what he didn't feel he was learning effectively. That will serve him well in life.

 

I would also point out one further thing. Perfectionism generally can be a nasty bugaboo for kids who excel in an area. They place a tremendous pressure on themselves which can give rise to anxiety. One of the greatest things we can do is help them learn to confront challenges, sometimes soar and sometimes stumble, then adjust, adapt and use those tremendous talents they have to innovate. When perfect becomes the enemy of the good for them, they are fighting a losing battle. I have always loved the Edison attitude, it wasn't how many times he failed, it was how many times he learned the way not to do it.

 

Hugs to you both.

[lisabees]

What you don't want is an otherwise successful and enthusiastic math student to develop some sense that they really just are not good enough. It would be untrue and might cheat the world of yet another talented but discouraged young mind.

 

This would be a great time in addition to the tyranny transcript, to make sure it clicks with him that long before AoPs was developed, people understood math and managed to accomplish astounding things with that understanding.

 

Please don't hang your head in shame. Your son did something really important for an effective learner, he recognized quickly what he didn't feel he was learning effectively. That will serve him well in life.

 

Perfectionism generally can be a nasty bugaboo for kids who excel in an area. They place a tremendous pressure on themselves which can give rise to anxiety. One of the greatest things we can do is help them learn to confront challenges, sometimes soar and sometimes stumble, then adjust, adapt and use those tremendous talents they have to innovate. When perfect becomes the enemy of the good for them, they are fighting a losing battle. I have always loved the Edison attitude, it wasn't how many times he failed, it was how many times he learned the way not to do it.

 

Hugs to you both.

 

 

 

Nscribe - your post is like a virtual hug for me. Thank you so much for taking the time to write it. The quotes and advice above really hit home.

[8filltheheart]

Lisa,

 

I want to encourage you that he can be completely successful w/o using AoPS. Our oldest is a very successful chem eng and never used anything other than your standard math texts.

 

But......I do think that it does lead to a difference in how students think about how to solve problems. I have lamented in other posts that our oldest did not have the opportunity to engage in learning math via the AoPS approach. He learned very similarly to our 11th grader that ate up AoPS classes. Younger ds has a much stronger ability to build a proof to find an answer to a question that he may not have a memorized formula for. He can step back and analyze through a fog to see the bigger picture on how to approach the problem with various steps and knows how to step back when that approach is invalid and try a new approach. That is a strength from AoPS.

 

Oldest ds's skills in those areas exist, but they are more intuitive and "rougher" b/c they weren't so strongly nurtured. But, as a professional in applying concepts to problem-solving issues, he is well qualified for his field.

 

Our dd is an incredibly strong student. She does not think like ds's at all. She detested AoPS. She wants a laid out presentation. So, AoPS is definitely not on her list of options. It does not a disappointment to either of us at all that she doesn't want to use AoPS. She has no plans of going into a theoretical math or a theoretical/research science field (which is where I personally see AoPS as really benefitting the student.)

 

Theoretical research is what our 11th grader lives in hopes for as his career path. Watching his thought -processes (and seeing numerous thought-experiments that he records in a notebook) I attribute AoPS with fine-tuning those theoretical problem-solving skills and am glad that we found a path through their materials which he enjoyed. (and he opted out of the online class for 2 of their courses b/c he knew he needed more time to work through the material than the online classes would allow. He has told me that taking his time with those courses was the best decision.)

[boscopup]

Is this a sign of a kid who isn't used to working through a problem? A kid who is scared of getting less than 100 percent? Or is this a kid who will would do better with a traditional math program? He sees physics/astronomy in his future - should he stick with AoPS?

 

That class is 15 weeks... Algebra 2 with a hard text in just 15 weeks! I don't think you can judge his fit with AoPS based on the class. That class may be a bad fit, but the texts might still work for him. :)

 

But no, AoPS is not a requirement for a science career. Most people in the science world today did not use AoPS or anything like it. ;)

 

I would like to suggest that he work through the book with me, at his own pace, but I fear I won't be of any help!

 

 

Have you looked at the solutions manual? It's pretty thorough. The explanations are similar to those in Alcumus. He may not need your help. AoPS is designed to be done independently. And if neither of you understands an explanation, you could probably post a question on the AoPS forum or here.

 

I agree with the other folks' recommendations to either do a different class or do the Algebra 2 material on his own, at his own pace.

[snowbeltmom]

That class is 15 weeks... Algebra 2 with a hard text in just 15 weeks! I don't think you can judge his fit with AoPS based on the class.

 

:iagree:

 

Also keep in mind that the vast majority of kids taking the online AoPS classes are traditionally schooled kids who have already been exposed to the material in a class at their school. They come to AoPS for more challenging material. Since they are not seeing the topic for the first time in the AoPS class, most are able to be successful in the 15 week Alg. II class.

 

Imo, it is much more difficult to handle the pace of an AoPS class without prior exposure. The fact that your son is finding the pace difficult does not mean that AoPS itself is a bad fit, just that the class may be a bad fit.

[lisabees]

 

Theoretical research is what our 11th grader lives in hopes for as his career path. Watching his thought -processes (and seeing numerous thought-experiments that he records in a notebook) I attribute AoPS with fine-tuning those theoretical problem-solving skills and am glad that we found a path through their materials which he enjoyed. (and he opted out of the online class for 2 of their courses b/c he knew he needed more time to work through the material than the online classes would allow. He has told me that taking his time with those courses was the best decision.)

 

 

 

Thank you for this post, 8. I value your thoughts and experiences, especially knowing that your 11th grader would like to go into astrophysics. It is likely a field ds will consider, as he is thoroughly passionate about astronomy. That is why I want to make sure there are no regrets.

 

I'd like to nurture those problem solving skills in ds, but I fear I did too much, too quickly. I knew that he had a perfectionist personality. ;)

 

I will not be giving up on AoPS yet; I just need to know how to change our approach.

[lisabees]

That class is 15 weeks... Algebra 2 with a hard text in just 15 weeks! I don't think you can judge his fit with AoPS based on the class. That class may be a bad fit, but the texts might still work for him. :)

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

Imo, it is much more difficult to handle the pace of an AoPS class without prior exposure. The fact that your son is finding the pace difficult does not mean that AoPS itself is a bad fit, just that the class may be a bad fit.

 

 

Good points. Thank you for the reminder.

[regentrude]

I will not be giving up on AoPS yet; I just need to know how to change our approach.

 

I suggest you quit the class and give your son the time he needs to work through the book slowly at his pace.

You could go back and have him take algebra 1 with AoPS, but really, the pace of the online class may not be what your student needs. It is perfectly fine just to use the books; they are written TO the student and meant to be used without an instructor.

Good luck!

[lisabees]

Thank you regentrude. I think this is what we are going to do. By the way, I think I recall you mentioning that certain AoPS books and/or topics did not cover the math necessary for a physicist. If that was indeed you, can you clarify?

 

Are there any online tutors that use AoPS? Just once a week to check in with him would be ideal. And it would make me feel so much better!

[regentrude]

By the way, I think I recall you mentioning that certain AoPS books and/or topics did not cover the math necessary for a physicist. If that was indeed you, can you clarify?

 

LOL, NO WAY I said that, ever! AoPS is the most rigorous high school math program I am aware of, and any student who uses this curriculum is very well prepared for a physics major at college.

My only regret (and maybe this is the post you recall??) is that they do not (yet?) have multi-variable calculus, but that is usually the third semester course at the university. AoPS covers all math a physics major needs, through the first two semesters of college. The precalculus book even deals quite extensively with vectors and matrices, topics most high school students only touch on briefly, if at all.

 

So, if your son is interested in physics, be assured that he will be extremely well prepared if he uses AoPS for his high school math.

[lisabees]

LOL regentrude - you know I now have to search for that post!! My brain is a jumbled mess. I am not surprised that I remembered it all wrong.

[walkermamaof4]

This is a bit of a tangent, but two of my very close friends took their sons to Johnson O'Connor centers for career testing. Both were surprised but delighted with the results and depth of info provided. Both said it changed their children's career paths. Both had bright children. Both said it is worth every penny and provided info about their kids' aptitudes that they really hadn't thought through well in planning their careers. One of them has two sons who now hold successful careers in fields that the testing pinpointed. Perhaps this would help also.

[AuntPol]

We tried AOPS. Some how made it through chapter 13 of Intro Algebra with much tears and frustration and lots of Khan Academy and AOPS videos. My son is lost and I am lost. We can't go further since their are not videos for AOPS chapter14 and above. We tried Counting and Probability and it was the same. It seems there is a lot of things that go unexplained or are assumed that you know. There is not a decent index to locate the information that you missed or forgot to see what he is talking about. For example, in the Counting book, he gives a problem with the symbol for floor but we have not learned anything about that. If it was covered, I had to google to figure out what the symbol even stood for. I can't find it because there is nothing in the index about floors. Now I would like to switch curriculums but I am not sure what I should switch to?

[Arcadia]

AoPS maths is not a prerequisite to a science career. Many architectural marvels were built and science discoveries were made before AoPS founders were even born :)

 

There is not a decent index to locate the information that you missed or forgot to see what he is talking about. . ... Now I would like to switch curriculums but I am not sure what I should switch to?

 

There are a lot to choose from. NittanyJen recommendation with the YouTube links for the book is here http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/465798-please-help-me-make-sense-of-pre-algebra-curriculum/#entry4868930

My compilation of textbooks and workbooks link is here http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/465758-math-workbooks-links-compilation/

[oscilatorium]

I suggest you quit the class and give your son the time he needs to work through the book slowly at his pace.

You could go back and have him take algebra 1 with AoPS, but really, the pace of the online class may not be what your student needs. It is perfectly fine just to use the books; they are written TO the student and meant to be used without an instructor.

Good luck!

 

I agree with this. I personally love the AoPS books; I feel like Richard is talking to me directly when I read them! For this type of advanced problem solving strategy material, going slower is almost always better, because the problems (especially the more difficult challenge problems) are where a lot of the learning and problem solving skills take shape. You want your son to 1) be challenged, but at his own pace and comfort, and 2) to enjoy himself without anxiety and fear that he is missing key material. With the alg 2 book (and solution manual, + internet help if he really needs more explanations), he can fulfill both 1) and 2) at his pace. With the class, his lack of prior AoPS experience will make it almost impossible for him to accomodate to the pace, because he's already missed solving key problems from Alg 1 book (important challenging problems that would be extremely unlikely to be seen in his normal school algebra classroom). So no worries; the books are extremely high quality (and not to mention 5x cheaper than the course). And since he is a perfectionist, he will be able to take the time to really work all the problems in the book if he wants to, and hopefully get a lot of satisfaction out of that. 

[Haiku]

We have not and don't plan to use AoPS because we really disliked the samples we looked at. But as far as needing AoPs for a science career ... AoPs just came out within the last few years, so every scientist in the history of science has been able to do it without AoPs. ;)

[oscilatorium]

That's true. When I first discovered the AoPS site earlier this year, I wasn't really impressed with their book samples posted on their site; it was only when I decided to order a book and started reading it from the beginning and doing the problems that I realized how well it flowed, and how logically connected with great explanations it had.