We are being held back by reading comprehension

[kalanamak]

Or should I say: ability to focus on reading. Any help is appreciated!

 

Kiddo is spelling above grade. Everyone tells me his vocab is fabulous. We are doing fine in math (except the READING of the word problems ...he makes sloppy assumptions while reading them). He chirps up about history, he seems to comprehend what I *read to him* far above what he can understand reading to himself, yet when I sit him and down and tell him we are doing a TEST (like McCall-Crabb), he does fine (these are short, the key is SHORT).

 

How does one build focus and stamina in reading? He reads every day to himself, but below grade level for fun. (At this age I was reading Kipling, while kiddo loves The Adventures of the Bailey School Kids.)

 

Do I just keep encouraging, and doing alternative teaching (more verbal, more with me at his side) until he catches on?

Are there drills I could use? Should I have him read aloud to me every day? Should I have him read the same thing aloud more than once for smoothness?

 

It seems like the sine qua non of moving forward at this point.

 

P.S. he also gets very twitchy about a full page of math drill, so it might be a problem of sustained concentration adding to this.

AND, has anyone had their child assessed professionally for reading problems. If so, how did you find the person who did this. I feel ..... unprepared for assessing this.

[Mabelen]

I don't know yet what to do exactly but I am seeing many of the things you mention in my 3rd grader. I found a website for reading comprehension but it only goes to 5th grade. I really had not noticed until very recently so I will be watching this thread carefully.

[fiddle]

Not sure if I would be much help and I didn't get the age of your dc, but similar issues here and we were looking at a couple things:

reading detective (by critical thinking co)- inexpensive way to help build comprehension skills

idea chain- helps to give mental pictures while reading and similar to the other program of visualising and verbalizing by Linda mood belle- both of these are more expensive options but still cheaper than full tutor or private clinic. If you want an eval then a LMB clinic would be a good place to start .

 

Of course, based on what you've said it may be more of an attention issue, so maybe you get that assessed first?

 

Good luck:)

 

Paula

[wapiti]

How does one build focus and stamina in reading? He reads every day to himself, but below grade level for fun. (At this age I was reading Kipling, while kiddo loves The Adventures of the Bailey School Kids.)

...

P.S. he also gets very twitchy about a full page of math drill, so it might be a problem of sustained concentration adding to this.

 

There are a few issues that can impact reading. My dd had mild issues with language processing (not dyslexia). Working on comprehension helped (Visualizing and Verbalizing style - visualization and inferences, reading comp workbooks, etc.), though she still seems to have a bit of a glitch when it comes to making inferences and is something we need to work on further, as supposedly improvement is quite possible. That testing was done by an SLP whom we were directed to by our ed psych, but the work on it can easily be done at home.

 

Eta, I can't remember, unfortunately, which way this little piece cuts, toward dyslexia or away from it (I'm losing my mind; I'm thinking away):

 

he seems to comprehend what I *read to him* far above what he can understand reading to himself

 

 

In any event, if mild dyslexia/stealth dyslexia were among the possibilities, then the tester would be an ed psych or neuropsych.

 

The other area would be vision. Forgive me for dredging up this recent post:

 

I took my boy for an eval when he started covering one eye, age 6. He did well except on two tests, and needed simple magnifiers for about a year. The lady, an older woman who'd been working in the field for decades and worked with children with significant neurological issues, gave me a couple of home exercised and we worked at it. I think it helped.

 

If he hasn't had an annual checkup recently, I'd do that, to make sure he doesn't need corrective lenses (or new ones). In addition, perhaps a checkup on his current status with the two tests that were previously an issue may be in order - to the extent the problem was fixed/went away, that should be measurable.

Edited November 12, 2012 by wapiti

[kalanamak]

If he hasn't had an annual checkup recently, I'd do that, to make sure he doesn't need corrective lenses (or new ones). In addition, perhaps a checkup on his current status with the two tests that were previously an issue may be in order - to the extent the problem was fixed/went away, that should be measurable.

 

The issue isn't that he can't read, but that he isn't applying himself. He gets bored. If there is a topic he is interested in, that doesn't require persistence in something he'd rather not do, he does fine. Lucky for us he loved science and history, he just doesn't like sitting and reading above "easy" level. Same with math. He loves word problems ("they have a story"), but the WORK of being precise is tedious to him. Once he thinks he has a hold of the route to go, he started running the numbers in his head, even if he's off in the wrong direction because he hasn't finished reading the stupid 3 sentences.

 

It is more of a "boys just want to have fun", I think. Any time he has to sit and concentrate on something he doesn't pick up on his own (he can spend a long time working through a multistep LEGOS, e.g.) he starts clearing his throat, whacking his head with his pencil, scribbling on the page, scratching his chest or heel, tapping his foot on the bookcase, shouting "ARG", or pointing out a new bird (we had a Loggerheaded Shrike at the feeder today).

 

I clearly remember feeling the same way about math at that age ... a kind of nausea and prickling in the legs, a tensing of my buttocks in restless agony. An intense loathing of being in that chair. But I did love reading, and it came naturally to me (after a late start).

 

I want to build his reading stamina without being a slavedriver. But I'm getting the feeling if I don't play "the heavy", he will snake out of things. I've recently told him he can't re-up for gym if he doesn't do his math drill while I'm at work, because I'll need him home in those evenings doing math drill with me on hand. He insists he CAN do it, but that he WON'T because it is loathesome and horrible. Boy how I remember that feeling, but I had to buck up and just do it. No one told me, you just DID what was expected of you when I was 10. He's not going to be happy about gym, but I work days and I have to have him continue to progress. I feel we are starting to lose ground because he can't/won't do sustained work.

 

But it is spotty. He does sustained work with WWE and Writing Tales. He does GWG in a sustained way. He barrels right through spelling.* But concentrating on repetitive math or reading comp and he has a very short attention span.

 

* He makes these topics "fun", e.g. when we are diagramming a predicate noun, he quickly sketches a tiny car running up the sloped line.

[Pen]

Hi,

 

I think I am going to answer yes as to the reading aloud question you asked but first, for that and other of your questions, I have a few questions for you:

 

Have you had him read aloud to you? If so, and especially if from something you think is at the level he "should" be at in reading, can he read in a way that sounds fluent and understandable? How many words per minute? If you discuss what he just read with him, does he seem to comprehend it well, or not?

 

Is he just barely 10 or toward 11? What grade? What is a SAHD?

 

What besides math due to word problems is being held up due to reading issue? What is he using for math and at what level? How much time does he read daily? Do math daily? When he is supposed to be doing the math drill while you work, is there anyone to supervise him? Other than the gym are there other things you can use for consequences that he cares about? What does the math drill work consist of? How long a drive to get to gym (assuming there is a drive)?

 

Do you have any reason to suspect any sort of LD (in some places it seems, yes, and at other points it seems you think the issue is attitude, but, parental gut feeling: which do you think is going on, realizing that sometimes attitude can be a cover up for difficulties.)

 

(I know some questions probably sound weird, but I also have a 10yo and have used things like drive time to get certain things done on way to an activity, for example.)

 

If you have not had him read aloud, or do a timed reading, try that and then answer those parts.

[wapiti]

The issue isn't that he can't read, but that he isn't applying himself. He gets bored. If there is a topic he is interested in, that doesn't require persistence in something he'd rather not do, he does fine. Lucky for us he loved science and history, he just doesn't like sitting and reading above "easy" level. Same with math.

...

I want to build his reading stamina without being a slavedriver. But I'm getting the feeling if I don't play "the heavy", he will snake out of things. I've recently told him he can't re-up for gym if he doesn't do his math drill while I'm at work, because I'll need him home in those evenings doing math drill with me on hand. He insists he CAN do it, but that he WON'T because it is loathesome and horrible.

...

I feel we are starting to lose ground because he can't/won't do sustained work.

 

But it is spotty. He does sustained work with WWE and Writing Tales. He does GWG in a sustained way. He barrels right through spelling.* But concentrating on repetitive math or reading comp and he has a very short attention span.

I agree with Pen that you seem unsure of whether this is an attitude issue or a real difficulty. On the one hand, you started off by asking about professional assessment of reading, and on the other hand you are saying he can read as long as he applies himself.

 

So, just to flesh this out some more, I will try to mirror back what I think you're saying ;): this is either (a) a willpower/maturity/discipline issue, (b) an attention issue (?), or © reading "stamina." From my perspective, what you call "stamina" could indeed be rooted in an actual difficulty, i.e., some sort of processing or vision issue - when it takes a lot of effort to work around the issue, he runs out of mental energy and doesn't want to continue for very long.

 

On the other hand, no one likes to be bored. Will he read at a level you deem appropriate when he IS interested? For a length/amount that you deem sufficient?

 

I still think the following nugget is relevant and you might take that over to the SN board, only because I can't remember what the answer is but I'm certain this sort of distinction has been discussed there before:

 

he seems to comprehend what I *read to him* far above what he can understand reading to himself

[kalanamak]

Hi,

 

I think I am going to answer yes as to the reading aloud question you asked but first, for that and other of your questions, I have a few questions for you:

 

Have you had him read aloud to you? If so, and especially if from something you think is at the level he "should" be at in reading, can he read in a way that sounds fluent and understandable? How many words per minute? If you discuss what he just read with him, does he seem to comprehend it well, or not?

 

Is he just barely 10 or toward 11? What grade? What is a SAHD?

 

What besides math due to word problems is being held up due to reading issue? What is he using for math and at what level? How much time does he read daily? Do math daily? When he is supposed to be doing the math drill while you work, is there anyone to supervise him? Other than the gym are there other things you can use for consequences that he cares about? What does the math drill work consist of? How long a drive to get to gym (assuming there is a drive)?

 

Do you have any reason to suspect any sort of LD (in some places it seems, yes, and at other points it seems you think the issue is attitude, but, parental gut feeling: which do you think is going on, realizing that sometimes attitude can be a cover up for difficulties.)

 

(I know some questions probably sound weird, but I also have a 10yo and have used things like drive time to get certain things done on way to an activity, for example.)

 

If you have not had him read aloud, or do a timed reading, try that and then answer those parts.

 

SAHD is stay at home dad. Papa has him during the day and runs the pants off of him so he can sit still for work (I was a very antsy child, too)

 

He was 10 around the 1st of August.

 

When I do timed drills with him he does okay (grade level or above, if you trust McCall-Crabb), but I think it is because they are short and he rises to the occasion. We do math and reading (and school) 7 days a week, although they took a month off to go on a ship in October. We are about half way through SM 4A and some days he remembers all his math facts and flies through it and others he is spacey and sloppy, but those are not that common. He is mathy, IMO. He has gotten better about stopping and drawing the bar diagrams.

 

(And today, I used the example of

John's amount + 3 of Peter's amount = 65

John's amount + 1 of Peter's amount =45

 

in abbreviations, stacked on top of one another (J + 3P = 65 minus J + 1P = 45) and he immediately got that J-J is 0, and 3P-1P is 2P and 65-45 is 20, therefore 1P =10. However, I had to get him focused to read the problem twice again to see that the answer asked for was John, or 35)

 

Besides gym (which is extra gym, he already has homeschool gym), there is food. I hate to withhold his favorite foods for school. I daren't hold him in as punishment, for he is a big physical child and we follow the philosophy of 3 hours outside unless the weather is terrible, which is about one day every three years here.

 

The math drill is from Saxon math and is 100 math fact problems on a page. I upped it from 50 a couple of weeks ago, because I remember age 10 is when we did timed drills over and over until we had "passed", and I felt it was time to "demand" he get the facts down. He's mathier than I was at that age. It appears he just "can't" stick with the misery unless I'm there prompting with "keep going". It was the same with 50, BTW.

 

I posted because I feel completely unqualified to assess the situation (and my "gut" not guiding me) and decide if there IS a "problem" or if it is willfulness (I don't think so, I know that look of suffering because I felt the same bloody way when I was his age), or he just needs a stronger "concentration muscle". How did I get my concentration strong? Mine was pretty strong by 16.

 

***Did I develop it with age, or because I DID the work** because I would have never dreamed of not doing it. I would have shut myself in my room and wept through problem after problem if need be, because it was just what you DID. (I have absolutely no idea what my parents would have done if I hadn't. I suspect nothing, because they were huge believers in what I have termed "the privacy of the mind", and when I bombed algebra, not one word was said, and when I dropped out of high school, not one word was said. But I would have done anything to make my father's eyes gleam, and did so happily until he died. Heck, I sent him my glowing work eval when he was 96, and I know he was very pleased with it. I thought "the best part about getting a good eval is how happy two old people in Topeka will be." :D But I digress.) I certainly remember crying over school (in my sleeve so no one would hear.) I'm sure I'm not the only one. Heck, I was in college once, and sat there ready to barf over a physics test that was nothing like the problems in the book had been, when I heard people literally weeping behind me.

 

So, do I call in a professional or do I put his nose to the grindstone?

 

Just now, because of this thread and my concerns, I read him the first story in MOSDOS's 5th grade book. I then started asking him the questions. Well, he could tell me what a "character" was, I gave him the definition of the word "situation" and he came up with word situation. He correctly guessed what a turning point, a climax and a resolution was. (AFAIR I've never discussed this with him .... if I have, then I have forgotten. I think it was just his good vocab shining through.) Then I quizzed him over the story and he remembered a lot of details, missing few questions. I asked him the turning point: got it in one try. Asked him the climax, the same. BUT, it is a very interesting and moving story and I let him run around and around the couch with a lego airplane in hand the whole time.

 

Now that I've gotten through that, tomorrow I will have him read the second story aloud to me, although I suspect he will protesteth madly after 3 pages, and see how he does.

 

(Another example: he listened to an audio recording of Animal Farm, unabridged, in the car with Papa last week, and when I started quizzing him about the plot and who did what, I was aMAZED at what he came up with.)

[kalanamak]

..

 

He sees fine. He discarded his readers by age 7. I took him into work and did an eye chart on him this spring: better than 20/20 and never asks for "more light" or "bigger print".

 

Okay, I'll have him start reading to me again. I'd stopped it after his "great leap forward" at age 8.

 

I don't think it is a handwriting problem. His cursive is wonky, but his print is square and solid, and when he writes a note to my sister or his very old cousin twice removed, he happily writes it out once, to get it perfect, and then copies it carefully (putting "a best foot forward").

 

Our seat work is less than 2 hours a day. I remember biting my hand in school trying to sit still and keep from running screaming from the room. I sympathize with "the wiggles". We do board work. I give a quick lecture each day as I write on the board and then I cover parts and ask him to fill in the missing info (today was 9 reasons for silent E from Unlocking the Logic of English) to help him memorize. We take five minute breaks between hour one and two, when he runs to his Legos. We hop up and go to the big map on the hall wall anytime a place is mentioned. Etc.

[EmilyK]

My sons are like this, especially my 10 year old. Even my older son, who is seen as very academic, doesn't like to sit around and read all the time as I did as a kid. In fact, he does it really rarely by choice.

 

Both of my kids (until recently for my older son) needed someone nearby. They didn't like working alone.

 

I'm still figuring out what to do with my younger son. I'd like him to attend the private school his older brother goes to when he's old enough but I'm not sure he's on a trajectory to be ready because of this "sitting still and working in a focused way" problem, plus these issues have delayed some of his skills.

 

What's worked best for us

-- he's working with a tutor 2 times a week, and he'll be way more focused with her than he will with me.

-- trade off reading.

-- I did have an assessment with his ped for ADD (she doesn't see it), discussed with his tutor, enrolled in a study at OHSU. We also ended up changing his diet to deal with some other issues with improved his concentration a bit. No definitive ADD but clearly some of the traits. (me too)

-- my guys do a lot of books on tape so I was pretty sure comprehending and remembering wasn't the problem. I think your son does too?

[thebacabunch]

If I had my dc do 100 practice problems 7 days a week on top of singapore I would have open rebellion. Am I reading that right?

[PeterPan]

I'm sorry to be really short and crass, but I'm getting ready to go to bed. Everything you've said adds up to ADHD. very physical, can attend when highly engaged, off in lala land if he's not, not concentrating that seems like a character problem when you know that his character is otherwise good, blah blah. That's where I would look. Sure I'm all for a good eye exam, and everyone should get one. But what you're describing sounds like adhd to me. That's what I would read about. And if that doesn't fit, read broader.

 

You get a neuropsychologist to evaluate for it. They can look for dyslexia and adhd and the whole nine yards. You're probably going to learn a ton. Hurts nothing if there's not a problem, but with what you've described, there is.

 

If you head over to the SN board, people have adhd book lists to get you started reading. Doesn't have to be adhd in your ds. I'm just saying that's what *I* would be thinking with that scenario.

[PeterPan]

-- I did have an assessment with his ped for ADD (she doesn't see it), discussed with his tutor, enrolled in a study at OHSU. We also ended up changing his diet to deal with some other issues with improved his concentration a bit. No definitive ADD but clearly some of the traits. (me too)

 

The ped can do the executive function questionnaire, but that's really just a screening tool. In fact, one of the psychs in our town (well really the city near us) helped write the screening tool the docs use. The op is better advised to move on from the ped and get an actual neuropsych eval. When you're frustrated and having conflict and need answers, you want the full eval, not a diagnosis based on a questionnaire. I've filled that thing out multiple times, and my answers totally varied with what we were experiencing at the time and my mood. The np eval is multi-faceted, with more tests, more days, so the np gets a better sense of what is going on.

[PeterPan]

He sees fine. He discarded his readers by age 7. I took him into work and did an eye chart on him this spring: better than 20/20 and never asks for "more light" or "bigger print".

 

 

What wapiti was talking about with the vision evals was developmental vision, not 20/20 acuity. You can have 20/20 eyesight and still have developmental vision problems (issues with tracking, convergence, focusing, depth perception, visual memory, etc.) that affect school work. To get those things checked, you need a developmental optometrist. A developmental optometrist can *screen* for those extra things in a regular vision appointment, or they have a full-length, typically multi-hour developmental vision exam. So that's what she was talking about, and yes it can be a good thing to check off the list. Sometimes it's an issue, yes. Personally, I think everyone is wise to get their dc's eyes checked like that (regular appointment with the developmental screening), simply because it's an easy way to make sure it's NOT an issue.

 

So no, unless you know how to check convergence, focusing, etc., you haven't checked the things wapiti was talking about.

[kalanamak]

What wapiti was talking about with the vision evals was developmental vision, not 20/20 acuity.

 

Yes, I know this. She imported info from another thread where about 5 years ago I took kiddo in because he covered one eye for a couple of weeks. She was an older lady who has worked with vision problems for decades (mostly in disabled children, but many others ....not just the "worried well"). She said she saw nothing of dyslexia (which kiddo's dad has very severely), and that he just needed readers until his near vision got up to speed with our smaller print 1st grade readers. (I.e. he didn't have any developmental vision problems.) He wore them religiously for school for a few months and then declared he didn't need them any more. We progressed. I was a late reader, and he wasn't really fluent until 7.5, and made big gains at age 8, and now steady gains with recognition of bigger and bigger words, less mistakes when meeting new words etc.

 

He just doesn't take to it like a duck to water. He recently told me he *likes* reading now, but he still doesn't "want" to buckle down and sit for anything boring for more than a few minutes, math or reading.

 

BTW, for fun he has taken to reading the Scholastic Children's Dictionary. But those are short sentences he grazes through, not "sustained silent reading".

Edited November 12, 2012 by kalanamak

[kalanamak]

If I had my dc do 100 practice problems 7 days a week on top of singapore I would have open rebellion. Am I reading that right?

 

He doesn't rebel against SM. We do 40-60 minutes of math a day and it is ONLY the boring bits (sitting with drill) he doesn't like. But he is 10. I feel some automaticity is due.

[kalanamak]

I'm sorry to be really short and crass, but I'm getting ready to go to bed. Everything you've said adds up to ADHD.

 

You get a neuropsychologist to evaluate for it. They can look for dyslexia and adhd and the whole nine yards. You're probably going to learn a ton. Hurts nothing if there's not a problem, but with what you've described, there is.

 

 

I think 4 of my 5 sibs and myself were very busy kids. I have read the descriptions and symptoms, I've worked with adult ADHD/ADD, and while there are some adjectives in common in describing us, kiddo (nor me and my sibs) is not near a diagnosis of that.

 

All of us have settled down to professional degrees. My parents were mountain climbers and were skinny dipping in Russia in their 80s. My dad bicycled from Kansas to Seattle in 1929, on a one speed. They took us hiking every week, and we walked after dinner whenever possible, horseback rode. We are just energetic people. And most of us were late bloomers (my dad didn't get his PhD until his 40s, only one sib had kids before 35, and 4 of us did into our 40s (as did my parents), only one sib went straight through school, the rest hitchhiked about racking up adventures in our twenties and THEN going to med or law school.) I remember telling one teacher I didn't want to "serve my youth up on a platter to school", and didn't even start med school until I was pushing 30. I was right. No way I could have sat and worked on books 15 hours a day for 2 years when I was 22.

 

But I don't consider that abnormal. And I don't agree that it "hurts nothing" for an eval. I think it tells something to the child that you took them. I think I could easily pass off a "reading test" with a reading evaluator, but I couldn't not send the message "Mommy thinks you have a problem" with neuropsych testing, if NP testing in children is ANYthing like it is for grown ups. I've sat in several of those, and read dozens and dozens of reports (for grown ups).

[PeterPan]

Back when I was doing my reading on this stuff, there was some arduous tome I read (I'd have to dig out the name, slips my mind) where the author said that, way back when, they actually had adhd and dyslexia under one glorious blanket of "minimal brain dysfunction." There has been so much flux in the DSM over the years. Dyslexia is now reading disorder and really more of a functional thing than a profile the way websites make it sound.

 

That's all to say you just take 'em in for the eval and let 'em sort it out. They can run a CTOPP and look at phonological processing, run attention and executive function tests, etc. What's *good* about it is you have someone else looking at the contradictions and giving you objective facts. (your kid is better at xyz than you realized, his such and such needs some work, his processing speed is x and may need some accommodation, blah blah). The benefit goes way beyond the label.

[PeterPan]

I think 4 of my 5 sibs and myself were very busy kids. I have read the descriptions and symptoms, I've worked with adult ADHD/ADD, and while there are some adjectives in common in describing us, kiddo (nor me and my sibs) is not near a diagnosis of that.

 

All of us have settled down to professional degrees. My parents were mountain climbers and were skinny dipping in Russia in their 80s. My dad bicycled from Kansas to Seattle in 1929, on a one speed. They took us hiking every week, and we walked after dinner whenever possible, horseback rode. We are just energetic people. And most of us were late bloomers (my dad didn't get his PhD until his 40s, only one sib had kids before 35, and 4 of us did into our 40s (as did my parents), only one sib went straight through school, the rest hitchhiked about racking up adventures in our twenties and THEN going to med or law school.) I remember telling one teacher I didn't want to "serve my youth up on a platter to school", and didn't even start med school until I was pushing 30. I was right. No way I could have sat and worked on books 15 hours a day for 2 years when I was 22.

 

But I don't consider that abnormal. And I don't agree that it "hurts nothing" for an eval. I think it tells something to the child that you took them. I think I could easily pass off a "reading test" with a reading evaluator, but I couldn't not send the message "Mommy thinks you have a problem" with neuropsych testing, if NP testing in children is ANYthing like it is for grown ups. I've sat in several of those, and read dozens and dozens of reports (for grown ups).

 

Well whatever. Then start reading about executive function delays and make accommodations and move on. Maybe you're of the variety (which does exist) of people with exceptionally high IQ's whose EF (executive function) develops later. The Eides had a study about that on their blog. It only applies to the *profoundly* gifted, but I'm guessing you know if you and your family tend to be in that camp. In the *profoundly* gifted, yes there is a different developmental curve that basically looks like adhd (delayed EF development, etc.) and isn't. You can google to find their blog. If that's what you think is going on, then it will be reassuring.

 

There are 18 ways to spin testing. I would think it would be *helpful* to know some of this (IQ, etc.) and get that feedback. It's not like they only look for problems. Our np talked mostly about STRENGTHS and positive stuff, not problems. It's not just about getting labels.

[Pen]

SAHD is stay at home dad. Papa has him during the day and runs the pants off of him so he can sit still for work (I was a very antsy child, too)

 

He was 10 around the 1st of August.

 

When I do timed drills with him he does okay (grade level or above, if you trust McCall-Crabb), but I think it is because they are short and he rises to the occasion. We do math and reading (and school) 7 days a week,

Possibly at least a day off/per week is needed. Or at least to only do a minimum amount in some area that needs extra effort.

 

although they took a month off to go on a ship in October. We are about half way through SM 4A and some days he remembers all his math facts and flies through it and others he is spacey and sloppy

Interesting. Any pattern? Any trigger?

 

, but those are not that common. He is mathy, IMO. He has gotten better about stopping and drawing the bar diagrams.

 

(And today, I used the example of

John's amount + 3 of Peter's amount = 65

John's amount + 1 of Peter's amount =45

 

in abbreviations, stacked on top of one another (J + 3P = 65 minus J + 1P = 45) and he immediately got that J-J is 0, and 3P-1P is 2P and 65-45 is 20, therefore 1P =10. However, I had to get him focused to read the problem twice again to see that the answer asked for was John, or 35)

suggesting a reading problem of some sort. With dyslexia in your family, yes, I think you should get him checked. Possibly a general check for a variety of possible things.

 

 

Besides gym (which is extra gym, he already has homeschool gym), there is food. I hate to withhold his favorite foods for school. I daren't hold him in as punishment, for he is a big physical child and we follow the philosophy of 3 hours outside unless the weather is terrible, which is about one day every three years here.I suggest you keep the gym. Once you fail to sign him up it will have no more influence. The weekly or daily or whatever trips there can be something of a carrot to get what needs to be done done. BUT, make sure you are not asking for too much.

 

The math drill is from Saxon math and is 100 math fact problems on a page. I upped it from 50 a couple of weeks ago, because I remember age 10 is when we did timed drills over and over until we had "passed", and I felt it was time to "demand" he get the facts down. He's mathier than I was at that age. It appears he just "can't" stick with the misery unless I'm there prompting with "keep going". It was the same with 50, BTW.

Whoa! Wowzers Kadowzers! Way, way, way too much, IMO!!!! Cut it down to 10 to 25 problems. And more than that, see if it can be made fun in any way. Such as I strongly suggest trying online via Khanacademy (free) or IXL (20 problems or so per day for free) or some such. If he can do Khanacademy and get their lightning designations or whatever indicating his speed is good, and a high number of leaves or the thing that indicates a run of problems correct in a row, and so on: accept that he has done what needs to be done, and let him move on. From what you said about his making grammar fun for himself, I think he might find Khanacademy a huge improvement over Saxon. You said he usually seems to fly through math and know his facts. The off days may have some reason for them that the drill will not help, and will only kill a possible love for math.

 

 

I posted because I feel completely unqualified to assess the situation (and my "gut" not guiding me) and decide if there IS a "problem" or if it is willfulness (I don't think so, I know that look of suffering because I felt the same bloody way when I was his age), or he just needs a stronger "concentration muscle". How did I get my concentration strong? Mine was pretty strong by 16.

Yeah, but he's just 10. I think there probably IS a problem. AND that in regard to math drill (maybe other areas you've not mentioned) that you are assigning too much and expecting too much.

 

 

***Did I develop it with age, or because I DID the work** because I would have never dreamed of not doing it. I would have shut myself in my room and wept through problem after problem if need be, because it was just what you DID.

Yeah. Well. We parents probably walked 10 miles to school through snowdrifts uphill both ways and had teachers who rapped our hands with rulers for messy writing. Does that mean you want him to cry his way through schooling, because you and others you know did? If the answer is yes, then you need to discuss that with someone who can help you to sort out your own unresolved issues.

 

(I have absolutely no idea what my parents would have done if I hadn't. I suspect nothing, because they were huge believers in what I have termed "the privacy of the mind", and when I bombed algebra, not one word was said, and when I dropped out of high school, not one word was said. But I would have done anything to make my father's eyes gleam, and did so happily until he died. Heck, I sent him my glowing work eval when he was 96, and I know he was very pleased with it. I thought "the best part about getting a good eval is how happy two old people in Topeka will be." :D But I digress.)

 

Actually, it sounds important. Emotional issues at play in addition to whatever else is going on. Look at this as a chance to work on healing everyone in the family. Sometimes when a child gets checked for LD's a parent who was unaware of them will realize that she or he too had them and suddenly have a whole new outlook, and new understandings of his her own past academic experiences.

 

I certainly remember crying over school (in my sleeve so no one would hear.) I'm sure I'm not the only one. Heck, I was in college once, and sat there ready to barf over a physics test that was nothing like the problems in the book had been, when I heard people literally weeping behind me.

 

So, do I call in a professional or do I put his nose to the grindstone?

 

I'm still interested in what you find when you have him read to you and also do a timed reading. But, it does sound like an evaluation for LD's would help.

 

He sounds like a bright kid reading books intended for much younger kids and that is a red flag. There are lots of wonderful, absorbing books right now for 10 year olds, and if he could read them easily he likely would do so. Mine just managed to stay up 45 min. past bedtime with Harry Potter for example.

 

I also think that a lot of reading aloud to you, and yes, more than once for fluency is likely to turn out useful. But it would help to know how he is doing now.

 

 

Just now, because of this thread and my concerns, I read him the first story in MOSDOS's

What is MOSDOS?

 

5th grade book. I then started asking him the questions. Well, he could tell me what a "character" was, I gave him the definition of the word "situation" and he came up with word situation. He correctly guessed what a turning point, a climax and a resolution was. (AFAIR I've never discussed this with him .... if I have, then I have forgotten. I think it was just his good vocab shining through.) Then I quizzed him over the story and he remembered a lot of details, missing few questions. I asked him the turning point: got it in one try. Asked him the climax, the same. BUT, it is a very interesting and moving story and I let him run around and around the couch with a lego airplane in hand the whole time.

Could be something toward an ADD type thing there, but also could be that he is a kinesthetic type high energy boy. Mine thinks better when moving too.

 

 

Now that I've gotten through that, tomorrow I will have him read the second story aloud to me, although I suspect he will protesteth madly after 3 pages, and see how he does.

 

(Another example: he listened to an audio recording of Animal Farm, unabridged, in the car with Papa last week, and when I started quizzing him about the plot and who did what, I was aMAZED at what he came up with.)

 

Okay so, apparently very high comprehension so long as he does not need to read the material himself. Again, for me that is a red flag that there is a reading related LD.

[MomatHWTK]

nm

Edited November 12, 2012 by MomatHWTK

[ondreeuh]

We are in a similar place, so I started having ds read aloud to me again. We are using the Ready Readers 2 guides that use the Teaching the Classics method of lit analysis. After each chapter I ask him about the setting, conflicts, similarities to other books, etc. When we have finished the book we map out the story chart and identify the climax, and the events/people who move the plot forward towards the climax and what/who holds it back. He is doing very well and I think going through this process is helping him to ask himself these questions when he reads.

[PhotoGal]

I don't have a 10 year old, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt! :D

 

Could you try doing less work, but more concentrated work? For example, if he generally can give a good summary, skip the summary and go to the (more interesting) higher order thinking questions. Instead of doing 100 math fact problems, ask him two per day until he has those two. Then add two new and review the two old. Keep going until all the facts are easy for him.

 

For free reading, have you tried books on his level that are more modern/popular (not classics)? Maybe something that draws the reader in really well. I'm thinking of something like "The Name of This Book is Secret" or something similar. Even Harry Potter starts out kind of slow for kids in my opinion. I'm reading "The Red Pyramid" right now and it is pretty engaging.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I would make as much of his work engaging as possible. You don't have to erase all drudgery, but keep it to a minimum so it is easier to get through. I think having the experience of having more "reading stamina" or "work stamina" with things he is engaged in will help him eventually have that stamina with less interesting things. But I vote keep it as interesting as possible in the meantime!

[kalanamak]

 

Yes, have him read aloud to you today. Then come back and tell us how he did. Did he skip words, substitute words, read with expression?

 

 

He did when he was seven, but not by nine.

 

****I think my inexperience is speaking here***, and I am gauging what is "within the range of normal" by what I was doing at his age. I have a very good memory of my childhood, and remember the books I was reading at his age. **I have spent very little of my life around kids. I didn't babysit, my parents were in their 50s when I was growing up, and their friends had no peers for me. Etc. I loathed pediatrics because I hated all the child abuse I saw and I had as little to do with it as possible. So, I feel child-stupid.**

 

I also remember being a "short-cut child". If I thought I got the gist of something, I ran with it before carefully confirming my suspicion is correct just to get this BLEEPING task I didn't like over (and I see this in plenty of adults at work .... they read the first line of an email and reply about some completely different form that I've not mentioned. Or if I ask how to prevent an error in the future, the shoot back, "this is all fixed, you're good to go" and I re-request (often twice) yes I KNOW this instance is fixed, but how do I fill out a form correctly so I don't have to get it fixed later.). I did this into my teens. I so vividly remember this I can really see/feel his thought processes.

 

I'd also like to point out that I am demanding more of science, history, math, art history, etc than was demanded of me. So when I say his reading "stamina" is holding us back, it might be that I'm expecting too much of him. I think he has gotten a LOT more facts than I did at that age, and we discuss cause and effect like I didn't meet until college (my school district had gone to the dogs over last decade, and I didn't stay long enough to take any tougher courses--I dropped out my junior year). However, he seems interested in all this additional stuff and I only push as far as I see that inquisitive look in his eye will take us.

 

So, I don't know, since via the McCall-Crabb readers he is reading "above grade", if I'm just expecting WTM material out of him and he isn't ready, or if there is remediation I need to do. I made a decision to "beef up" in 5th grade, and I think he is keeping up with the discussions in History Odyssey and the student pages that can be done without buying their online component, and comprehending, although not memorizing, the definitions and cycles (e.g. phosphorus cycle) in biology. But his independent reading and rote work is not at the level of all his other work.

 

E.g. This month we were waiting while Papa had a tooth implant and we were discussing heroes because I was about to read him a short version of Gilgamesh from K12. He offered that "Bach was a hero because he composed such beautiful music with all those screaming children" (accomplishment in the face of adversity). Then he mentioned Orpheus. Keep in mind we haven't gotten to the Greek myths this cycle and that his love of Orpheus is years old now. With this in mind he could not refrain from mentioned Orpheus and Eurydice, as he LOVES classical music and opera, and that opera in particular. Not that we'd discussed the opera for a few months. But after acknowledging his beloved opera, I steered back to the topic and when he wouldn't give me a pat definition of a hero, I gave him 3 and he picked "significant accomplishment in the face of daunting adversity".

Kiddo went for water as the only other person in the waiting room's son came out and as they were leaving the man bend down and told me I had a very intelligent son.

 

So, I hear this from people, but I don't think he's reading up to his intelligence. Nor has the stamina for non-interesting rote work that I think will help him advance in school.

 

Is this any clearer?

[wapiti]

I don't think he's reading up to his intelligence. [Red Flag #1] Nor has the stamina for non-interesting rote work that I think will help him advance in school.[Red Flag #2]

 

Is this any clearer?

 

= red flags for 2e (twice-exceptional)

 

Just flags from an issue-spotting perspective, nothing definitive. You explore and find out with a neuropsych eval (with or without additional evals), or you don't. I favor finding out (BTDT 3x so far). Eta, I would only do this with an ed psych/neuropsych who is especially experienced with 2e kids, i.e., not just any one.

 

Eta again (why do I always think of more after I post?) - for some people, "stamina" for rote work can represent an issue where there are weaknesses in the area of rote learning, while for other people it could be more of a learning-style preference due to other learning methods being stronger. In either case, I think VSL, which is a separate discussion from potential LDs. I would look for ways to learn the content (math facts or whatever) that are not rote methods. (And no, there's no way my kids would be willing to do math fact drill with 50 on a page, let alone 100. Even for a rote method, that seems excessive.) FWIW, I don't put rote work in the same category as reading, though both may be impacted by sequential weaknesses.

Edited November 12, 2012 by wapiti

[kalanamak]

(And no, there's no way my kids would be willing to do math fact drill with 50 on a page, let alone 100. Even for a rote method, that seems excessive.)

 

BTW, this is a Saxon drill book which surely many others here use. If you added in the rest of Saxon I would be leaping off a cliff, yet people here say they have children who thrive with Saxon.

 

He has asked me to cut back to 50, and perhaps I will, although it seems to me he gets over his agonies and settles into work and clicks through better after the half way mark.

 

I don't have a lot of interest in "labeling" any but the most exceptional (one way or the other) children (or adults for that matter). I think this is part of my just-buck-up-and-do-it/ it-takes-all-kinds childhood, and also that I work with the severely mentally ill. What's a little anxiety or distraction when there are people who faint from standing because they hallucinate snakes entering their rectums when they sit down?

 

I am trying to decide, I think, if I should jettison the advanced history work, etc and spend some months on the three Rs or if I should keep soldiering on and just be more patient. And if I can't find a "gut" feeling strong enough to "trust", what non-intrusive way can I sound out the situation and decide?

 

Perhaps I should try a middle ground ....

[kalanamak]

We are in a similar place, so I started having ds read aloud to me again. We are using the Ready Readers 2 guides that use the Teaching the Classics method of lit analysis. After each chapter I ask him about the setting, conflicts, similarities to other books, etc. When we have finished the book we map out the story chart and identify the climax, and the events/people who move the plot forward towards the climax and what/who holds it back. He is doing very well and I think going through this process is helping him to ask himself these questions when he reads.

 

Are these the ones by MCP? I see there are 5 levels. Is this roughly grade 1-5 or something else.

 

Thanks.

 

I'm thinking he may focus more if he is planning on getting through some expected questions more efficiently. We have been doing Ervin's REading Comprehension books, and I find his success varies with the type of passage. If it is about science: 100%. If it is a poetry passage:30%.

Edited November 12, 2012 by kalanamak

[kalanamak]

MOSDOS is a Jewish publisher of secular materials that seem very sound to me. I learned about them here on K8.

This is the book I'm now wading into:

 

http://www.mosdospress.com/5th_grade_coral.php

 

BTW, that buck-up-and-just-do it has carried me far in life, and since it was combined with a lot of laughter and long conversations, as well as an animal love of life, it is something I prefer not to "heal" from. ;) I remember a standardized test on abilities and interests I took at age 15. I complained to my dad there were lots of repetitive questions. He said: perhaps they were testing your toleration for repetitiveness. A light bulb went on. Not everything in life is exciting and new. Adults who can tolerate undesirable tasks can get on to the next rung of their goal's ladder.

 

And kiddo is a happy boy. He has a huge delight in life and nature, and two adults from the month-long ship trip he just went on (I'd never met them) sent me word he was "such a well-behaved boy" with great inquisitiveness. I didn't solicit this info, they emailed me out of the blue. If he was struggling on many fronts, or not generally a "whistle a happy tune" bloke, I'd be re-thinking things on a much bigger scale.

[kalanamak]

Okay so, apparently very high comprehension so long as he does not need to read the material himself. Again, for me that is a red flag that there is a reading related LD.

 

So, what is a low-tech way of looking into this. NP testing seems like overkill, and I neither want to pay for it, nor send kiddo a message about this. How does one find a competent teacher who is on the homey and motherly side to look him over and give me guidance.

 

There are three women in my area listed on the state's organization of homeschooling. How does one know they aren't Harriet One-Notes (all children get diagnosed with the same thing) or have an agenda? What questions would you ask of an evaluator? How do I sound out if the assessments are ways of drumming up business for their tutoring business? What kind of credentialing might she be expected to have? I'm in the "poor info is worse than no info" school.

[kalanamak]

The Eides You can google to find their blog. If that's what you think is going on, then it will be reassuring.

 

There are 18 ways to spin testing. I would think it would be *helpful* to know some of this (IQ, etc.) and get that feedback. It's not like they only look for problems. Our np talked mostly about STRENGTHS and positive stuff, not problems. It's not just about getting labels.

 

Re: the Eides. I did google and found 40 pages hits from their blog, and few on their books and the waitlist to see them, but no outside commenters. I had to laugh over the blog entry "The Dark Side of Expertise".

 

I am naturally suspicious of people like this: polished, self referential, making a good living out of it.

 

Re: NP. Without a more pervasive problem, no way I'm working over 80 hours of overtime to pay for this. I think the 80 hours better spent at home, being with kiddo. But I do really appreciate your ideas. I read them all thrice.

[PeterPan]

A teacher on the homey and motherly side isn't going to be a squat bit of good better than what we've already given you. You actually need IQ tests, processing speed tests, phonological processing tests, etc. to sort out what's going on. There's an IQ component available for the Woodcock Johnson I think, but we didn't do it. That's such a snapshot and only one day.

 

I'm trying to be sympathetic, but I really don't understand your perspective that testing communicates to him he's broken. Testing will communicate whatever you spin it as. The psych doesn't talk with the kid about anything. You think up something reasonable to tell him. And there are psychs that specialize in exceptional children. You can find lists of them on the Hoagies site I think. There was one in our state, and I decided not to use her because her approach didn't really fit what I was looking for. However it definitely would have been on the more validating, embracing side.

 

Kids will survive an awful lot. Yes you can tell 'em to suck up and drill it, and eventually it may come. You might have made a different choice with more information. What you're doing now is turning down information. That's your choice, but you certainly have enough flags and reasons to *want* that information. And it's a fallacy to assume that because the *parent* was able to suck up and have it work out that the kid will too. Kids have their own genes and aren't some clone of the parents. My dd is a little more extreme, shall we say, on some issues than either my dh or I. Getting that info concrete on her was fabulously helpful to us, because it validated all the good things we were doing and allowed us to be more brave.

 

To me, the most unkind thing to do is to take someone who IS bright or 2E or gifted or has a challenge and just tell 'em "try harder" when they're already trying harder. That's why we decided to get the testing (hit that wall at age 10 btw), because she WAS compliant and cheerful and trying harder and we knew there were some incongruities.

 

Anyways, the psychs are very nonchalant. They're not talking labels. Your dc will take from it however you spin it.

[PeterPan]

Re: the Eides. I did google and found 40 pages hits from their blog, and few on their books and the waitlist to see them, but no outside commenters. I had to laugh over the blog entry "The Dark Side of Expertise".

 

I am naturally suspicious of people like this: polished, self referential, making a good living out of it.

 

Re: NP. Without a more pervasive problem, no way I'm working over 80 hours of overtime to pay for this. I think the 80 hours better spent at home, being with kiddo. But I do really appreciate your ideas. I read them all thrice.

 

The Eides aren't really in the realm of self-aggrandizing money-grabbers. They wrote some exceptionally good books like "The Mislabeled Child" (which you would do well to read) and "The Dyslexic Advantage (also fascinating and insightful), and their waitlist went so long they had to raise prices and stop taking names. They also homeschool. So they're on our side and aren't just money-grabbers. You might find the research on their site interesting. They post lots of helpful, accessible summaries of new research on MRIs and how they connect to learning, gifted kids, etc.

 

I don't want to be impolite and ask what you make an hour, but I'll point out the cost to see the Eides is not the same as elsewhere. I paid $1500 for our doc locally. They bill a flat fee that represents $100 an hour (that's testing and parent interviews and school observation and write-up and follow-up). They ps system will do it for free. And if you have insurance, sometimes you can find a set-up where the cost ends up DRAMATICALLY lower. And some people use a university to get the cost down. So you'd just have to see your options. I'll repeat to you though that *testing* is the way to get the answers you're wanting. And when you have those numbers and pair them with what you're seeing, then you can make decisions. You said you don't know how to interpret what you're seeing and are having problems, and I'm telling you testing is how you get that info. I understand the money thing. You might see what you can get though. For most people, it's worth it.

 

I think we as homeschoolers don't give ourselves credit about our gut instinct and how valuable that information is to us. If the dc were in school, they wouldn't hesitate to refer off. But we sit here at home and plow on and say we'll just have great character, blah blah. Baloney. We DESERVE to have full information so we can understand what we're seeing. I'm a better teacher, now that I know my dd's IQ and processing speed and working memory and all the other things they were able to tell me. The label didn't matter. It was all the information and what to DO with it that was so valuable. Invaluable. Like sell all my books to make it happen valuable.

 

Just my two cents. And it was so valuable with my first dc, I intend to have it done on my 2nd dc when he comes of age. I'm not willing to teach and bang my head on the wall like that unnecessarily.

 

BTW, you're where I was 3 years ago. 3 years ago it just seemed like little stuff. It's gonna get a LOT HARDER in the next few years. It took quite a while of a few persistent ladies here on the boards poking and prodding me before I finally took the plunge and got the evals. That was 3 years of unnecessary torture. I wish we had done the evals WAY earlier. So say you decide you DON'T need them now. Start *saving* for them. Save $15 a week for the next two years, and if you want the evals at that point, you'll have the money. And if you don't want the evals, you just go take a cruise or something. But seriously, that would be better than blowing it off now, taking the cheap way now, and realizing in a couple years it would have been helpful. I wouldn't even screw around paying for somebody less like some consultant or something. If they can't do the proper testing and don't know gifteds, then don't bother.

 

So start saving so you have the *option* at some point. That's my advice. :)

Edited November 12, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

So, what is a low-tech way of looking into this. NP testing seems like overkill, and I neither want to pay for it, nor send kiddo a message about this. How does one find a competent teacher who is on the homey and motherly side to look him over and give me guidance.

 

There are three women in my area listed on the state's organization of homeschooling. How does one know they aren't Harriet One-Notes (all children get diagnosed with the same thing) or have an agenda? What questions would you ask of an evaluator? How do I sound out if the assessments are ways of drumming up business for their tutoring business? What kind of credentialing might she be expected to have? I'm in the "poor info is worse than no info" school.

 

Well what testing do they do? Call each person, write it all down, and decide. The neuropsychs I called were also happy to talk with me and tell me what types of tests they would be doing, etc. If you can write fast enough, hehe, then that gives you a way to compare. There *are* some people who do the WJIII affordably, and it *does* have an IQ add-on. There's so much more though a psych can tell you with complete testing. They do it over several days, so they don't just get a one day impression. And they test with multiple tests that hit the same thing from multiple angles. (not just digit spans but n-backs and...) But yes, I'm with you that I'd be careful about spending a ton of money with a self-proclaimed expert and then end up still needing the neuropsych.

 

Honestly, if $$ is that much of an issue, I'd just go to the ps and get it done. Some districts are better than others. I've seen the report one friend got (not in our school district), and they were quite thorough. What they DIDN'T do was give her a lick of help with what to DO with the info. The tests were there though and a mom of a pro-active bent could take that info and research what it means or take it to a psych for a consult (often $100 an hour). Or post that info on the SN board and beg the wizards of numbers over there to interpret. There are ways to get it done at your price point.

[kalanamak]

 

To me, the most unkind thing to do is to take someone who IS bright or 2E or gifted or has a challenge and just tell 'em "try harder" when they're already trying harder.

 

I'm not telling him to "try harder". I have not let one whit of concern come out of my lips. He is a perfectionist, and I know that would bother him. I'm trying to find out if I need to do work a la ElizabethB/Don Potter or if I should just keep going and let nature catch up. Really, I don't think the situation is as extreme as you take it. I have expressed myself poorly, or you tend to take things in via 2E glasses. Or some of both. :) If I were a parent whose child was tripping off the school under the guidance of professional teachers, I don't think they'd be referring him, and I don't think I'd be asking.

 

I see a danger in indulging a child in every possible fascination-saturated curriculum in fear they will ever be bored or frustrated, and having a spoiled 20 year old with no sustaining power. But as an inexperienced teacher, I don't blindly assume Might Makes Right and I Will Force You To Do This. I'm trying to assess the situation a bit to see if I should offer more support, or some Tincture of Time (as well as a :chillpill: for me).

 

 

I'm also operating under this Privacy of the Mind I got from my parents. In some sense, what a child learns is their private business. He is the one who has to live with his brain the rest of his life, and to figure out how to learn for himself. I can expose, but what I expose him to should be guided by not only goals but responses. I just feel underqualified a bit, and know I am. Oh, how I wish I knew I wise and experienced 5th grade teacher. (Or was one. ;))

[kalanamak]

Well what testing do they do? Call each person, write it all down, and decide.

 

In our state you can have non-test assessments for the annual requirement. (I do standardized tests, which kiddo aces some years and bombs others, depending on how perfectionist he feels that day. At this point I ST only to get him inured to taking the tests. I had such a ST phobia, I didn't take the SAT or ACT, ever.) Some of these people also have tutoring businesses and LD work they do. I was looking for something much more low tech, as in: this kid is fine for age, his reading skills are not up to par with everything else, but who can be a star in everything, vs. oh, my, we need to look further into this vs. yes, spend a little more time on LA and set a goal of X by next March.

 

After I "write it all down", how would one decide?

[kalanamak]

That was 3 years of unnecessary torture.

 

I don't think there is any torture going on. To question my abilities in a field I am not trained in is par for the course for me, not evidence of torture.

 

And I owe a debt of gratitude to my parents who expressed NO alarm bells by what I was doing or not doing in school. However, I do wish they had at least ASKED why I bombed Algebra. I want their calm, but a little more involvement, IYKWIM. I have no reason to doubt kiddo will, in the long run, do fine. He'll be no Rhodes Scholar, but I sense a good solid, happy RN or LPN in him, and that is plenty for me. I know every person is different, but his love of animals and medicine is very familiar to me. What did I want for my 12th birthday? A dissection kit. What did he want for his 9th birthday? Ditto.

 

So, I want to know if I need to quietly add a bit more fertilizer, or just keep hoeing the weeds and praying for rain.:001_smile:

[PeterPan]

So, I want to know if I need to quietly add a bit more fertilizer, or just keep hoeing the weeds and praying for rain.:001_smile:

 

Well it's testing that helps you sort that out. You could spend time doing phonics remediation (as an example) and realize it was totally the wrong thing and not what was needed if you don't do testing. I know you can get that testing if you go to the neuropsych. If you go to some tutoring service, dunno. Just gotta call each place and ask. These psychs talk really fast and throw acronyms out like confetti, so write fast and then google them.

[Karen in CO]

Random thoughts for you:

 

Reading through this, your ds doesn't sound that far from normal. You have said you tested his reading and he reads on level. He is working math on level and answering science comprehension passages at 100%. I'll tell you, my ds was still reading Captain Underpants in 5th grade. Really. We did a lot of buddy reading and talking about books which covered most of our history and literature curriculum. He still read Captain Underpants. Eventually he moved on to Calvin and Hobbes - which has been a family favorite. I have always despised the books with the comprehension questions. I am very careful about what I choose to read so that there is something interesting to talk about.

 

I've found with my kids that I am less critical of their comprehension abilities once they are able to synthesize information from various sources. I have realized that before that level, I just don't see them as really understanding what they read. It really isn't fair to them because that is a higher-order skill that takes time to develop. I try to refer to Bloom's taxonomy when I have a younger reader so that I can remember that the lower levels are important too.

[Catherine]

My youngest, of three boys, also shows little interest in sustained reading. He is almost 11 1\2. But his difficulties showed much earlier, so let me tell you what helped us.

 

He had a lot of trouble with: spelling, reading fluency, math, and writing, from early on. He was evaluated when he was 8 because I believed he had what is called "stealth dyslexia". The NP did not subscribe to any definition of dyslexia that doesn't involve inability to decode. Ds is not dyslexic. He has high IQ, and slow processing speed, and very poor working memory capacity.

 

How this shows up is pretty poor reading comprehension. His math difficulties continue, but RightStart has helped him hugely. Vision therapy helped hugely-he could not converge or track, so he kept losing his place and missing small words. I'm working on Visualizing and Verbalizing with him now, because I think his lack of visualizing is one reason he cannot follow directions, cannot remember what he's read, and cannot think about what he's read much. He reads what I assign, and I know some of it sticks and some doesn't.

 

What you are asking though, if I understand, is whether looking for a cause of his difficulty is going to be worthwhile. If it will end with him on meds that stigmatize him, if it will make him feel you disapprove of who he is as a person somehow. I think you are the only one who can answer that. For every adult who is grateful that their parents did not harass them about their poor academic performance, there are those who are very grateful that their parents helped them figure out what was causing them to struggle. Only you really know the particulars of your situation well enough to know which way to go.

[WTMCassandra]

I haven't had time to read the other replies, but I would push audiobooks, especially in the car or during playtime. It would be a way to get good content in without running up against a reading difficulty. I would do that while I was trying to figure out what was going on and trying to remediate.

[kalanamak]

I haven't had time to read the other replies, but I would push audiobooks, especially in the car or during playtime. It would be a way to get good content in without running up against a reading difficulty. I would do that while I was trying to figure out what was going on and trying to remediate.

 

We do these all the time, esp. Naxos recordings.

 

I'm really down today with costrochondritis (painful ribs that click excruciatingly past one another if you move wrong), and kiddo, to cheer me up, brought a book in and read to me, skimming happily through words like balustrade and quadrangle... but he was *motivated* to cheer me up.

 

I should know by now: just when I start to get ansty about something, kiddo makes a monkey of me.

 

My gut has spoken: I'll go the middle ground. Some reading work, fewer drill, more patience on my part.

[ondreeuh]

Are these the ones by MCP? I see there are 5 levels. Is this roughly grade 1-5 or something else.

 

Thanks.

 

I'm thinking he may focus more if he is planning on getting through some expected questions more efficiently. We have been doing Ervin's REading Comprehension books, and I find his success varies with the type of passage. If it is about science: 100%. If it is a poetry passage:30%.

 

Sorry, Ready Readers are published by Center for Lit. There are 3 levels. Level 2 is for grades 3+ and uses the books A Cricket in Times Square, The Trumpet of the Swan, Misty of Chincoteague, Miracles on Maple Hill, and The Door in the Wall. My son is reading them aloud, which is good for building fluency (they are all around a 5th grade reading level, I believe). I feel like these are a very efficient way of working on those lit analysis skills - rather than doing a ton of different things, we're just reading "modern classics" and getting the most out of them. The story charts can be used for any short story or novel so I plan on using them for whatever we read when we're done with this.

[Karen in CO]

We do these all the time, esp. Naxos recordings.

 

I'm really down today with costrochondritis (painful ribs that click excruciatingly past one another if you move wrong), and kiddo, to cheer me up, brought a book in and read to me, skimming happily through words like balustrade and quadrangle... but he was *motivated* to cheer me up.

 

I should know by now: just when I start to get ansty about something, kiddo makes a monkey of me.

 

My gut has spoken: I'll go the middle ground. Some reading work, fewer drill, more patience on my part.

 

Ouch. But, I'm glad your ds cheered you up and eased your mind.

[Pen]

MOSDOS is a Jewish publisher of secular materials that seem very sound to me. I learned about them here on K8.

This is the book I'm now wading into:

 

http://www.mosdospress.com/5th_grade_coral.php

Looks like a good anthology. Good to know about.

 

 

BTW, that buck-up-and-just-do it has carried me far in life, and since it was combined with a lot of laughter and long conversations, as well as an animal love of life, it is something I prefer not to "heal" from. ;)

 

What was in my mind was the failing algebra and dropping out of school indications. Of course both may have had nothing to do with any academic issues, whatsoever. Maybe it was a sad romance with a boy in algebra for all I know. Or anything really. But it sounded a little like in various things you wrote, not only is there a dyslexia on Papa side, but also perhaps something on yours too. ...

 

I remember a standardized test on abilities and interests I took at age 15. I complained to my dad there were lots of repetitive questions. He said: perhaps they were testing your toleration for repetitiveness. A light bulb went on. Not everything in life is exciting and new. Adults who can tolerate undesirable tasks can get on to the next rung of their goal's ladder.

 

 

At a certain level, I agree with you. One has to do the dishes again and again. Somehow, they do not stay done just because they were done once. Most of many fields (medicine, law, architecture.... is routine paperwork. etc.) Today on NPR Morning Edition, btw, there was an interesting segment on education, not so much about tolerating boring repetitiveness but learning that struggle is normal. At the same time, though, while all I know about your son is what has come through from your description, my inclination is to think that the drill level you describe is enough to kill a love of math in a child who sounds (from the Singapore problem you describe) to be quite good at math.

 

 

And kiddo is a happy boy. He has a huge delight in life and nature,

 

That is wonderful!!!

 

and two adults from the month-long ship trip he just went on (I'd never met them) sent me word he was "such a well-behaved boy" with great inquisitiveness. I didn't solicit this info, they emailed me out of the blue. If he was struggling on many fronts, or not generally a "whistle a happy tune" bloke, I'd be re-thinking things on a much bigger scale.

 

moving on to next one.

[Pen]

We do these all the time, esp. Naxos recordings.

 

I'm really down today with costrochondritis (painful ribs that click excruciatingly past one another if you move wrong), and kiddo, to cheer me up, brought a book in and read to me, skimming happily through words like balustrade and quadrangle... but he was *motivated* to cheer me up.

 

I should know by now: just when I start to get ansty about something, kiddo makes a monkey of me.

 

My gut has spoken: I'll go the middle ground. Some reading work, fewer drill, more patience on my part.

 

 

Looks like I may as well skip to here. So it sounds like the reading aloud was fluent and trouble free? That is good news indeed!

 

I'm glad your gut has spoken. Sounds like a good place to start. If that does not seem to work, then you can revisit other options.

[PeterPan]

kiddo, to cheer me up, brought a book in and read to me, skimming happily through words like balustrade and quadrangle... but he was *motivated* to cheer me up.

 

A bright child can guess words from context. With the large amount of audiobooks and read alouds you say you've done in the past, he probably has a VERY large vocabulary base to draw from. That will mask decoding issues in a bright child. They test phonological processing with nonsense words.

 

My youngest, of three boys, also shows little interest in sustained reading. He is almost 11 1\2. But his difficulties showed much earlier, so let me tell you what helped us.

 

He had a lot of trouble with: spelling, reading fluency, math, and writing, from early on. He was evaluated when he was 8 because I believed he had what is called "stealth dyslexia". The NP did not subscribe to any definition of dyslexia that doesn't involve inability to decode. Ds is not dyslexic. He has high IQ, and slow processing speed, and very poor working memory capacity.

 

How this shows up is pretty poor reading comprehension.

 

What Catherine describes is a very common scenario. The whole dyslexia thing as bantered around online isn't what the DSM says and isn't how psychs are diagnosing right now. It's reading disorder, a functional thing, and it's not even dependent on unexpected discrepancy. It's merely it's low by their standard or it's not.

 

I was thinking about this some more, and I think you may have some misconceptions about what an adhd label means. You apparently have some background in medical stuff, so I don't mean to offend you if this is stuff you already know. You've just made some comments about behavior, etc. There are multiple subtypes of adhd the way the (unloved, idiot, hate it) DSM codes them. There are tons of kids who do NOT act ill-behaved, have no social markers particularly, and yet still have issues with sustained attention, executive function, working memory, etc. When you said your family just chalks it all up to late bloomers (my words, not yours), well that's delayed EF development. That's a key facet of adhd. It has nothing to do with bad behavior. And yes, over the long run the kids come out to more or less the same place, but they're still typically behind their peers, still struggling with impulsivity, still dealing with the processing speed and working memory issues, etc. Sometimes they actually find ways to HARNESS it. For instance impulsivity becomes "decisiveness"...

 

I have no clue what your ds is and don't mean to offend you. I'm just suggesting that you're mixing up issues. Behavior in public will not determine adhd, and adhd isn't (merely) behavior. Phonological processing isn't the only thing that determines reading comprehension, and kids with a broad vocabulary will be able to hide their phonological processing issues because of their verbal precocity. You've had TONS of the keywords and flags that one expects when you're looking at issues with attention. Testing is the easiest way to sort through that. I wouldn't waste your money on any reading remediation, because he probably doesn't need it. The discrepancy between his comprehension where there's interest and ATTENTION (the science reading samples) and his lack of comprehension/retention when there's NO ATTENTION (poetry) is your prime flag that it's an issue of ATTENTION, not decoding. Sure he might have a slight issue with decoding. Yes, vision can affect it too, absolutely. But what you're describing is just attending. Testing helps you sort that out and can help you not waste time on remediation he doesn't need.

 

Your issues are only beginning, and I'm just speaking as the sage here. Right now your issues are easy, but it gets a lot harder as you start doing high school level work and are wanting him to use materials and it's not working.

 

So whatever, do what you want. There are lots of ways people sort this out. On the drill, I wouldn't do mindless drill. I would do meaningful practice in context. Ironically, my dd's computation scores shot up the year I started letting her use a calculator. That's the kind of thing you figure out with testing, because you can determine WHY the facts take a while and chart your course of action.

 

BTW, your avoidance of testing in high school for yourself, what was your reason? These kids will typically get extended time on tests and a limited distraction testing environment. It's NOT something he's likely to escape as a homeschooler, because any prospective schools are going to WANT validation. And if he needs some accommodations like that to let his full abilities show, you want to start this process now (as in the next couple years). The College Board doesn't like to see the testing all at the end, right before you want the tests. They want that paper trail to show it was necessary over the years. So it's something to sort through and make a plan for.

Edited November 13, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[ElizabethB]

I would work through either the 1908 Webster's Speller or thr 1879 McGuffey readers. The are all online to try out. With the readers, start a bit below comfort level to build confidence, have him read aloud the difficult words (highlighted at the beginning of reading selections early on, I think at the end of the selection for later readers.) Then, read the passage silently. Do a few passages a day.

 

For the 1908 Speller if you go with that, I would break each passage and words up into more days, especially for the later ones.

[kalanamak]

I would work through either the 1908 Webster's Speller or thr 1879 McGuffey readers. The are all online to try out. With the readers, start a bit below comfort level to build confidence, have him read aloud the difficult words (highlighted at the beginning of reading selections early on, I think at the end of the selection for later readers.) Then, read the passage silently. Do a few passages a day.

 

For the 1908 Speller if you go with that, I would break each passage and words up into more days, especially for the later ones.

 

I did work with a Mott Media book along these lines, and looking at the 1908 Webster's kiddo would not have trouble until about lesson 100."Incendiary" would give him pause, e.g.

 

Where "should" a 10 year old be?? I don't think my worry was so much that he was terribly behind, just that his spoken language and auditory language is so much better. It means I am doing more verbally than I really wanted to at age 10, but if he is following texts above 5th grade, why would I make him plod along at his reading level when he could hear/comprehend/discuss at a higher level?

[2squared]

Just wondering....have you assigned him grade-level or above grade-level reading for school work? Once my kids become fluent readers, I have them read through the Sonlight readers. I like that their readers gradually get more difficult so the kids are almost painlessly increase their reading level and time-on-task. Now I assign my 10.5yo dd literature by chapter or by time (30 min, etc). Also....if you assign him literature, do you read the same books and discuss? My dd enjoys books more if I read along at the same pace and we discuss what's happening in the story. If it's a book she so-so on, I can up her interest with how I discuss the book.

 

As for the story problems, sounds like that might be part training. My oldest two use Singapore's CWP, and I teach them to read through the entire problem (usually aloud) before putting anything to paper. After they read the problem, I ask them what question they are supposed to answer. Then they go back and work the problem sentence by sentence. If you haven't been training your ds to use a methodical approach to word problems, he may just not have that skill yet.

[kalanamak]

Will you be reading college texts to him, should he go to college?

 

 

I have every confidence he will have caught up by then. My query has been on how much this happens naturally (as it did with me) and how much I should put specific work into reading skills. If able to be up to lesson 100 in Websters at age 10 is *just fine* and he is progressing normally, I'll not spend any extra time on the topic, and wait until he is more motivated, for truly his reading is MUCH better when he is motivated internally. If lesson 100 is not up to snuff, then I should spend time remediating and less time reading aloud interesting but more advanced books.

 

Again, this is more about my insecurity (inexperiance) as a teacher-judge than of some horrendous glaring problem.