We are being held back by reading comprehension

[SunshineMom]

It sounds more like a motivation issue rather than a reading problem but I could be wrong. An idea to test reading comprehension. Try reading the Jungle Book (you mentioned Kipling) together, each of you having your own book. Take turns reading it out loud while the other follows along. Discuss the story, stop for unfamiliar words and enjoy its journey. Again, just an idea. I am not sure what reading level JB is but I would encourage you to choose a book at a higher level than his grade level.

[Pen]

I did work with a Mott Media book along these lines, and looking at the 1908 Webster's kiddo would not have trouble until about lesson 100."Incendiary" would give him pause, e.g.

 

Where "should" a 10 year old be?? I don't think my worry was so much that he was terribly behind, just that his spoken language and auditory language is so much better. It means I am doing more verbally than I really wanted to at age 10, but if he is following texts above 5th grade, why would I make him plod along at his reading level when he could hear/comprehend/discuss at a higher level?

 

 

My son is also 10. I cannot tell you where any 10 year old "should" be, as that is individual. My son does have dyslexic type issues, so his reading is definitely behind his interest and ability level in other regards (also "2e"). His current academic reading includes things on Civil War, but some is done aloud by me or on audio, and he reads from a Kingfisher Encyclopedia (geography or science--most days). He is currently reading the 6th (out of 7) Harry Potter book for fun. His best friend also 10 is ahead of him in both the academic reading and finished Harry Potter series awhile back.

[kalanamak]

quote]

 

 

Lesson 100 in Webster is irrelevant....what counts is where he is in learning to read, and where he needs to be to read and discuss the info in his textbooks. My sons' bio teacher is of the opinion that the ninth grade honors cohort is ready for a college text...that is age 13.9 for the nongradeskipped and he is right for the most part. Some of my sons friends did not take him up on the challenge, and they suffered along with the ones who didn't make the time to learn how to read a text.. However, as headmaster, you choose if it does not occur naturally.

 

(I only mentioned lesson 100 because another poster mentioned the book. A poster who teaches reading to many.

 

My son will not be an honors student in 9th grade, and I doubt ever. )

 

I am trying to find out IF it IS happening naturally, and he is just more typical in reading to himself and writing spontaneously, while more advanced in vocab and spelling, or if there is a problem. If I were an experienced teacher, this would probably be obvious. I am not, so I'm asking.

 

I find it odd how dooms-day a few responders are. Either I'm totally blind or these dooms-day responses are being generated by pessimism/high achieving personalities, the parent who sees all children as flawed and in need of diagnoses, or from narrow experience ("three years of unneeded torture because I didn't follow the advice here to get neuropsych testing"). Another possibility is that I'm expressing myself poorly. :o

[kalanamak]

It sounds more like a motivation issue rather than a reading problem but I could be wrong. An idea to test reading comprehension. Try reading the Jungle Book (you mentioned Kipling) together, each of you having your own book. Take turns reading it out loud while the other follows along. Discuss the story, stop for unfamiliar words and enjoy its journey. Again, just an idea. I am not sure what reading level JB is but I would encourage you to choose a book at a higher level than his grade level.

 

GREAT idea! Thanks! I'll do this with Yesterday's Classic's Story of the Greeks.

[SunshineMom]

Another note on reading motivation, as in what I would call "drive-by reading" and you may be doing this already but I thought I would put this out there. I found having various encyclopedias around the house piqued my children's interest in reading for information. We have encyclopedias related specifically to their interests, not necessarily academic in nature (dog, cat and horse breeds and general animals) but the behavior of reading, due to interest, is high. We just got another encyclopedia on world myths. One could probably get an encyclopedia on just about anything. Additionally, magazines are another source of information reading. Cricket has some wonderful titles such as Muse and Odyssey (more as well). BTW, YCSG looks great!

[Pen]

(I only mentioned lesson 100 because another poster mentioned the book. A poster who teaches reading to many.

 

My son will not be an honors student in 9th grade, and I doubt ever. )

 

I am trying to find out IF it IS happening naturally, and he is just more typical in reading to himself and writing spontaneously, while more advanced in vocab and spelling, or if there is a problem. If I were an experienced teacher, this would probably be obvious. I am not, so I'm asking.

 

I find it odd how dooms-day a few responders are. Either I'm totally blind or these dooms-day responses are being generated by pessimism/high achieving personalities, the parent who sees all children as flawed and in need of diagnoses, or from narrow experience ("three years of unneeded torture because I didn't follow the advice here to get neuropsych testing"). Another possibility is that I'm expressing myself poorly. :o

 

 

 

It is very hard to know what is going on from your descriptions. What he mainly reads -- by his own choice, as you have reported it-- sounds like it is rather below average level for a 10year old (?), and usually children will want to read what interests them and they can manage without it being too hard. (For nearly all of us, to read for pleasure, the level of difficulty has to be below our ability because if we are straining to be able to just do the reading we generally cannot enjoy the story as a story. Most of us do not like to read things way below our level because that is usually boring.) This suggests that either your son would be straining (for some reason) to be able to read harder materials thus making them unenjoyable, or that his interest level is below average. Which is the case?

 

Some of your statements make it sound like you think he is not very smart (or ? that you have already, at 10, given up on him as being able to get disciplined and motivated ever?): for example: "My son will not be an honors student in 9th grade, and I doubt ever"

 

Yet other statements you have made, sound like the picture of a quite intelligent boy--for example on first page where you describe his interest in classical music and so on. That would be extremely rare to find in a child of average to low intelligence. So much so that for me it leads me to think the problem is that you have an intelligent, very possibly extremely intelligent, child, who is having difficulties--and who could use help with those difficulties, rather than a below average child doing (particularly with regard to reading) "normal" for his abilities .

 

As none of us knows your son, none of us has anything to go on other than your own descriptions (and how they relate to our own children or other children we know), and as you yourself seem confused, it leaves us groping in a second hand way.

 

One of the ways for you to get the situation at least somewhat clarified would be to get testing done. If he were to turn out a little below average and with no "LD"s, vision issues or etc., then you would know that and it could help you know how to proceed and what expectations to have. If he were to turn out to be highly gifted in one or more areas, but with some type of LD or other issue holding him back, then that could be addressed. It could even help to assess things in the motivation area and what is to be expected in that regard.

 

You seem to be in a medical field of some sort. It sounded like perhaps you are a nurse in a psychiatric area. If so, that is not an area I know a lot about and so cannot think up any relevant analogy there, but perhaps you could understand an analogy that might be made if someone had something that seemed to be not right, say they were complaining of severe abdominal pain... It would be nice to know if was appendicitis, a tumor, or an emotional problem causing the person to complain (or any number of other possibilities.) One would hate as a parent (and for a doctor it would be malpractice) to ignore an operable appendicitis or malignant tumor because one thought it was just malingering or temporary mild gas. A competent doctor would generally be able to tell whether it was appendicitis from an exam and be able to rule out certain other things with appropriate testing. A competent neuropsychiatrist could do a similar thing for the learning area.

 

I hope you do not take that as doomsday thinking. It is certainly not meant to be. I think it must be your own view of things that would make the potential discovery that there could be some problem, say dyslexia, seem like "doomsday".

 

To me your own statements along these lines: "My son will not be an honors student in 9th grade, and I doubt ever. )" sound far more pessimistic than anything I am reading in replies to you, pessimistic at least certainly, with regard to a child who in other places has been described as striking others, strangers, people met on a boat trip or waiting room and so on perhaps, as quite intelligent.

 

You sound sadly pessimistic about him. Whereas the way I read the comments you don't like is that other people think he may have more going for him than you seem to think, and are urging you to get help to sort the situation out in order to better help him.

[kalanamak]

 

 

You sound sadly pessimistic about him. Whereas the way I read the comments you don't like is that other people think he may have more going for him than you seem to think, and are urging you to get help to sort the situation out in order to better help him.

 

 

 

I feel neither sad or pessimistic. I like to face things straight on: my son reeks of being related to me, and I come from a family of two MD sibs (including myself), two JD sibs, and a professor-- but LATE bloomers. I looked at math with tears in my eyes until I was 21 (when I started college)! It clicked, and I love math, now. We have a history of being very adventuresome young adults: hiking, traveling across scary parts of the Middle East, mountain climbing, etc. Then we settle down and become school-crazy: 4 years of college in 2.5 years, etc. But all on our own motivation -- no "because you should" or "to make Mother happy" or "all your friends are in college".

 

I am contented to let nature take its course, but I'm thinking that nature could use a little help with sustained silent reading ....until he has a motivated moment and reads much better than I think he can.

 

Some years ago I looked up the obit of my great grandfather, who died in 1903. He had been a saboteur for the North in the Civil War, sneaking through the south by night and cutting telegraph lines and stealing food, hiding by day. If he'd have been found, he would have been shot. Later he homesteaded. The opening line of his obit was: He never did anything merely for protocol.

 

Until we have an internal reason to do something, we don't. I'm not going to expect wool from a flax plant. I'm just trying to suss out the amount of water and fertilizer flax plants need. :thumbup1: (BTW, I think he is a budding nurse, and he'll need strong arms and legs, and stamina, a broad experience with all kinds of people, as well as his fearless fascination with disease. I took him to the history day at the mental hospital and he wanted to look at the photos of lobotomies and autopsies. While the caretaker was madly signaling me there was "sensitive material" coming up, he was asking me questions about how to stop bleeding in the brain.)

 

I do appreciate all the time you took! Such is the nature of dedicated homeschool mind!

[ElizabethB]

Table 100 is the first table that is 10th grade level, all the previous are 9th grade or below.

 

That is a fair level for an average boy taught with phonics. I would expect a girl or a linguistically inclined boy to be able to read up to 12th grade level by that point. Some non-linguistically inclined boys will figure out the harder patterns on their own, but many will need explicit teaching. (Grade levels of each table on page 165.)

 

I personally think it is worth 5 or 10 minutes a day so they can easily read anything on their own. You could start at table 100 and work through the rest of the Speller. I would also do my syllable division rules and exercises, links number 6 and 7 at the end of my how to tutor page.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/howtotutor.html

[SunshineMom]

Is it safe to say that if a child can spell at a 10th grade level that he/she can also read at that level as well? And if the child does not read at the level, is it more to do with motivation and maturity? Likewise, what if a child can read at 10th grade level but does not spell at 10th grade level? In this case is the child needing spelling remediation?

[Pen]

Is it safe to say that if a child can spell at a 10th grade level that he/she can also read at that level as well? And if the child does not read at the level, is it more to do with motivation and maturity? Likewise, what if a child can read at 10th grade level but does not spell at 10th grade level? In this case is the child needing spelling remediation?

 

 

Not necessarily are these at same level. Many kids read far better than they spell. OP's ds seems to spell way above grade level, but to be reading rather below. There are some spelling bee kids who spell better than they read.

[Pen]

I feel neither sad or pessimistic. I like to face things straight on: my son reeks

 

 

Interesting way to express your feelings about him. It does not sound loving at all. I guess it is hard to know how things come across to others on a post.

 

I hope it all goes as well for him as it did for you and your siblings.

[kalanamak]

Interesting way to express your feelings about him. It does not sound loving at all. I guess it is hard to know how things come across to others on a post.

 

I hope it all goes as well for him as it did for you and your siblings.

 

 

:rofl:

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reek

 

Look under 2b of intransitive verb. How well I recall my mother using it at particularly juicy moments. But she was funny. She called those plastic rings around 6-packs "hog bras".

 

 

But she didn't use sarcasm:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm

which is what your comment about having to read him is texts in college sounds like to me.

 

At this I give up. Parallel lines will never meet.

[LaughingCat]

"my son reeks" does not have the same meaning as "my son reeks of <X>" - "reeks of" can be used non-pejoratively although of course it does tend to be used more often negatively. However to assume negative intent because a word choice tends to generally be used negatively seems a little over the top to me.

 

As far as remediation for the specific issue listed in OP (only reads short passages at level), I personally would start by spending my time trying to pinpoint what the exact issue(s) is first. Stamina? fluency? speed? etc After that, you can see if there's clear things to do to re-mediate or whether you'd rather assume he is following the typical family path (but in that direction, my thought would be - what if he isn't? and would all those family members be even better off if they had gotten the right help at a younger age?) Trying to pinpoint the exact issue does mean looking closer at things like dyslexia and other "special needs" because that is where the information lies whether or not your child actually has a special need or not.

[EmilyK]

Kay, I've been reading this thread because my son has some of the same issues, worse I think, than your son. Prompted by the comments here, I took my son to a developmental optometrist and she seems to think 2 to 3 months of vision therapy will help. Just FYI.

[kalanamak]

Kay, I've been reading this thread because my son has some of the same issues, worse I think, than your son. Prompted by the comments here, I took my son to a developmental optometrist and she seems to think 2 to 3 months of vision therapy will help. Just FYI.

 

 

I would love to see a controlled double-blind study on VT with a sham arm. It seems like every D.O recommends some VT

 

(except, I'm amused to say, the nearly geriatric one I took my son to age 6 because he was covering one eye when he read. She was used to working with profoundly, or at least obviously, neurologically abnormal children. She did all the tests and said my son just needed readers for the smaller print we have moved to at the beginning of 1st grade. He used them for a few months and then found his near vision was good enough (a normal progression in preschoolers who tend to be far-sighted). I had a fun moment with her: because I taught my son the sounds of the letters before the names, he looked across the first row of letters and instead of naming them one by one, he said "ape-/f/-/cl/. What's ape-/f/-/cl/?" Not only had she never had a child do this, this told me the little stinker* (who regularly acted completely lost when it was time to sit down and do school work) really COULD read better than he was letting on.)

 

and I would be very interested in finding out if tincture of time or sham therapy had the same effect on most children without profound problems. It is another interesting phenomenon of either this board or homeschooling, and not one of the dozens and dozens of parents I work with has ever taken a child to a D.O, and it seems common as rain on this board. As you can see, I'm skeptical.

 

*and before anyone calls CPS, "stinker" in this case is a term of ENDEARMENT for a beloved child who is slightly misbehaving in a tricky way. Again .... learned from my mother.

;)

[lewelma]

I have 2 stories to tell about a normal child presenting somewhat abnormally. It sounds like you would like to hear about this type of child.

 

My son started to ask for more light when he was reading at night, and then when we got him a kindle for christmas, he upped the font to quite large. This set off warning bells, so we got his eyes checked. Doc said his vision is quite normal. And then asked if he was on the bottom bunk. Well yes, I say, your point? Well, there is less light on the bottom bunk. But then why does he need the very large font, I ask. Well, some kids just find it easier to read when the font is bigger. It is really not a problem. Humm. Ok then, lots of light and large font. But no problems.

 

Next issue, my son has had NO interest in reading non-fiction. When I finally start pushing him, he picks the most basic books out of the library and then tells me that the content is boring because it is so easy. Well, I get him to pick something harder. But then he cannot read it. This is a smart kid, but he can't read more than the basics? So, I set up a time, when we will both read side by side for 20 minutes for Silent Sustained Reading. He starts with very easy books, but in topics he knows nothing about. If I am not with him, he cannot read nonfiction, at all. He is up and down and up and down. But over time (a year), I sit with him and read my own book, and he builds up endurance from 10 minutes to 30 minutes. And during this time, slowly, ever so slowly, we increase the reading difficulty, until he is reading slightly above grade level. Now, a full year later, he can read nonfiction by himself for 20 minutes. Slow and steady won the race, as did my own presence and patience.

 

I did not learn to read properly until I was 12. I could read, I just could not READ. I never felt frustrated, I just read what I wanted to read and it was pretty basic. My first novel was at 12 and my PhD at 27. Not all kids are set to zoom ahead at a young age. And if they don't, it does not mean that anything is wrong.

 

Ruth in NZ

[EmilyK]

Yeah, I hear you. My husband is very skeptical, but I feel like it can't hurt and I'm a bit worried about my son. I took my older son too and he got out of there without any VT recommendation. But of course they got me on number 2. I think my guy is a later bloomer too, and I can't decide whether to rely on that, or whether his late bloomer-ness is/has blinded me to him needing extra help.

 

I would love to see a controlled double-blind study on VT with a sham arm. It seems like every D.O recommends some VT

 

(except, I'm amused to say, the nearly geriatric one I took my son to age 6 because he was covering one eye when he read. She was used to working with profoundly, or at least obviously, neurologically abnormal children. She did all the tests and said my son just needed readers for the smaller print we have moved to at the beginning of 1st grade. He used them for a few months and then found his near vision was good enough (a normal progression in preschoolers who tend to be far-sighted). I had a fun moment with her: because I taught my son the sounds of the letters before the names, he looked across the first row of letters and instead of naming them one by one, he said "ape-/f/-/cl/. What's ape-/f/-/cl/?" Not only had she never had a child do this, this told me the little stinker* (who regularly acted completely lost when it was time to sit down and do school work) really COULD read better than he was letting on.)

 

and I would be very interested in finding out if tincture of time or sham therapy had the same effect on most children without profound problems. It is another interesting phenomenon of either this board or homeschooling, and not one of the dozens and dozens of parents I work with has ever taken a child to a D.O, and it seems common as rain on this board. As you can see, I'm skeptical.

 

*and before anyone calls CPS, "stinker" in this case is a term of ENDEARMENT for a beloved child who is slightly misbehaving in a tricky way. Again .... learned from my mother.

;)

[kalanamak]

Yeah, I hear you. My husband is very skeptical, but I feel like it can't hurt and I'm a bit worried about my son.

 

Yes, it appears benign, which is more than I can say for cavalier medicating of every child who can't sit still. (A psychologist I knew quipped: child diagnosed with ADHD? --sedate the parents. :laugh: )

[Pen]

:rofl:

 

http://www.merriam-w...dictionary/reek

 

Look under 2b of intransitive verb. How well I recall my mother using it at particularly juicy moments. But she was funny. She called those plastic rings around 6-packs "hog bras".

 

 

 

"Hog bras" in that context also strikes me funny. And maybe the way your mother would use 'reeks' would too. That is easier to do when one has tone of voice and so on to help convey meaning.

 

Under the spot in the dictionary you indicate above, it links to a usage help for English learners, btw, and explains that "reek" is "usually disapproving"--including for the example that you give in 2b as an intransitive verb: "reeks of poverty".

 

 

 

 

 

 

But she didn't use sarcasm:

http://dictionary.re.../browse/sarcasm

which is what your comment about having to read him is texts in college sounds like to me.

 

 

You apparently have me mixed up with someone else. I never wrote such a thing. I don't even think I quoted any other pp with such a quote, though perhaps that is possible. And, I try to avoid sarcasm, nor to my recollection, have I ever before been accused by anyone of being sarcastic.

 

Nothing I have written to you has been with sarcastic intent. Most especially, I do honestly hope that your son will do well.

[Pen]

At what point do you want his reading to catch up? Will you be reading college texts to him, should he go to college?

 

 

Ah. Here it is. Now I have quoted it, but that is to exonerate myself of your wrongly charging me with having posted this.

[Heathermomster]

If you are unwilling to pay for NP testing, perhaps consider calling around and find an OG tutor. Ask the tutor to provide an assessment. An experienced OG tutor can sit with your child and provide a professional opinion as to how to proceed. No diagnosis. I did this myself with my 2e kiddo 6 months ago.

 

As far as the reading goes, I have been advised to allow DS to read a combination of below level, on level, and listen to advanced books. DS reads from his Kindle and will use the text to speech option that some books allow. We study vocabulary too, which increases reading comprehension.