eeny meeny miney moe

[Peela]

Please, please, Please, do not think all christians feel this way. I am a born again, evangelical christian and I most certainly know that God does not love me MORE than the next person. Please don't let one misguided christian make you think that ALL christians feel this way, we don't.

 

Its ok, I dont.

[Peela]

gotta agree w/ megsmachine here.

 

Being certain of what scripture says, ethically judging another's actions, and being certain that God loves EVERYONE are not all mutually exclusive.

 

I'm betting most everyone here has and would [somehow] judge another person on some character trait at some point in their life. i find it difficult to believe that there is even one person on earth who has NEVER judged another person. Being so certain of a non-judgmental attitude is a dangerous thing and tends to lead to a holier-than-thou complex in my observations. ;)

 

There is a definite danger in assuming who are "the people" you think believe this way, and what they are really saying. Blanket statements and all that. but I'll consider your post qualified --I'll hedge my bets that you are referring to someone who really does believe God loves THEM as an individual more than some other individual. Which isn't scriptural, but then again people have all sorts of ideas about scripture and God :)

 

But wait a sec-- you said you are "taken aback again by the people who...." --has someone in THIS thread said something about God loving them more than unbelievers?? or are you assuming that? or are you referring to statements you encountered IRL outside this thread? I'll hafta go back and re-read the thread, but I don't remember seeing anyone testifying that God loves them more than unbelievers...... I've seen quite a few admitting their own sinful state, but nothing lifting themselves on some "God's love" pedestal.

 

--------------------------------

 

eta --ok, i see it in Mom to Aly's example of her friend's dad "God doesn't love him." --obviously a guy that is a violent lunatic. gotcha. I'll just stand by the other gals that have offered the opposite side of that coin in this thread.

 

I am not going to analyse your post Peek. I am already in too deep and I may well even be wrong in my impression. I am sure not all Christians feel that God loves only Christians, but isn't it a part of the Christian culture to believe that when we die, only the Christians and only the good Christians at that, go to heaven? Isn't that part of the package? And the rest of us? Sorry, I am not so familiar with evangelical Christian beliefs, I don't know if they differ.

 

But from a personal, non Christian perspective, it does often feel like people become soooo black and white over things like this homosexuality stuff, and it often looks from my perspective like they are using the Bible, and their absolutely rock certain belief in its literal correctness, and therefore their absolute certainty of what God judges to be good and bad and right and wrong, to back up what I am suspicious (but have no proof) may be a personal prejudice.

 

I probably just got myself in deeper. I have no proof. I have no certainty. And I am certainly judgemental and all those things myself, it's a very human thing. I just don't say "God says" to back up my judgements.

 

In the end, there can really be no effective conversation on these kind of issues between people who don't believe the Bible is the literal truth and word of a God, who don't even believe in the Christian perception of a Christian God who judges humanity in these ways, and those who do.

But it's sometimes fun trying, or sometimes it just feels like it's worth saying something anyway. Remember, the non Christians are the minority here- what can we say to "but God said"?

[Laura Corin]

 

When I was in my early 20s I was part of a support group for homosexuals who were wanting to live as heterosexuals......

 

Do you know that EVERY one of the members of this support group had suffered some form of sexual abuse?? I am a firm believer that the vast majority of "gay" individuals have been wounded in the area of their sexuality at some point in their life.

 

Most homosexuals do not end up in such groups; the gay people that you met are troubled in their sexuality, and (I would guess) more likely to have had bad sexual experiences in their pasts. I don't think that you can extrapolate from this group to a well-founded belief about the majority of gay people.

 

Laura

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

There are all kinds of "lifestyles" one can lead whether gay or straight. Being gay is not a lifestyle choice. Many of my gay friends live a lifestyle just like mine. Many of my gay friends live a lifestyle much much better than some of the so- called "Christians" I know.

 

How can anyone pretend they can teach their kids when they don't have a degree to teach? These kids need to be in school with other kids, how else will they ever learn to live in the real world? They are missing out on all kinds of wonderful experiences.------- How in the world a minority group who faces discrimination itself feels it is right to hurl insults, generalizations, and general ignorance-based hate at another group is beyond me. I thought logic was supposed to be part of a classical education:confused:

[Oak Knoll Mom]

It's not discrimination - modern medicine and psychiatry simply don't view it as an illness or defect to be attracted to the same sex, so there is no need for treatment.

I think that was her point. The medical community has decided to treat one and not the other. Where's the patient's choice in this?

I would dare say that 99% or more of individuals that are looking to be "cured" of homosexuality are doing so for religious reasons

And why is it wrong to seek treatment for something based on your religious views? For many of us who are religious, our faith drives our world view and decisions in every area of our lives. I've even made medical decisions for religious reasons.

 

Now to extend your argument - say a straight married woman decides one day she's missing out on part of life by not desiring women. According to your theory, should she be able to also go to a doctor for treatment to render her bisexual or gay?

To be fair, yes. But honestly, how many people would really want that? A few, I'm sure, but it wouldn't be a booming business.

[Renee in NC]

[i am not going to analyse your post Peek. I am already in too deep and I may well even be wrong in my impression. I am sure not all Christians feel that God loves only Christians, but isn't it a part of the Christian culture to believe that when we die, only the Christians and only the good Christians at that, go to heaven? Isn't that part of the package? And the rest of us? Sorry, I am not so familiar with evangelical Christian beliefs, I don't know if they differ.

/QUOTE]

 

I am Catholic, not evangelical (though I used to be Ind. Fund. Baptist!), however, my stance is that God decides that in the end, not me. One can hold a certain belief without judging others.

[Michelle My Bell]

Oh, boy, am I crazy or what? All right - I'm jumping in on this one.

I don't think it matters whether it is one's tendency or one's choice. The Bible condemns homosexual acts (along with murdering, fornication, gossiping, being disobedient to parents, and a whole host of other things). Yea, I know, not everyone cares what the Bible has to say about it. Oh, well. I do.

 

God made the world. He made human beings. He knows best how the whole thing should work. Isn't that true about people who invent things as well? I mean, if you made it, you should be an expert on how it functions. Seems logical to me. He made gravity and when you disobey the laws of gravity - generally speaking - it hurts. It is just the way things are.

 

God said that homosexual acts are a sin. He never mentions homosexual tendencies. I think He must have a good reason to prohibit that behavior. Since He is a loving God and He knows best how everything is supposed to work and He wants what is best for everyone, He made a point of saying which behaviors are destructive and which ones aren't.

 

Personally, I have tendencies to be overly critical and angry. Acting on those tendencies has always proven to be destructive. Choosing God's way of forgiveness, tenderness, patience, etc. has always proven to be constructive.

 

The Bible says that Satan is a murderer and wants to destroy God's creation. He is very subtle about it. He isn't going to show up on your front stoop dressed in a red suit with horns on his head and pitchfork in his hand. He wants to entice every person on this planet to do the exact opposite of what God wants because He wants to destroy it. And, yes, I know, not everyone thinks Satan exists. That doesn't stop him though - it actually suits his purposes.

 

I think sin is sin. It is sin because it is disobeying God. It is saying, "I know better than God," which is essentially saying "I'm smarter than God" or worse yet, "I should be God," and the ultimate, "I am God, so therefore I will decide how to live my life."

 

I am absolutely and 100% aware that this is not a popular pov and it is totally politically incorrect. Nevertheless, I believe it is true. Like my sig says, you don't have to believe something for it be true.

 

God loves us and wants what's best. He wants us to trust Him. He wants us to say, "OK, you made the world and everything in it so I believe your laws are for my good. I will obey them because I trust in your goodness and love."

 

The Bible says if you have committed one sin, you are guilty of them all. The bottom line is we all need to repent of whatever sin(s) we have committed and cry out to God for mercy through His son Jesus Christ. I need a Savior just as much as anyone who has committed a homosexual act or has murdered another person or has stolen anything, etc. etc. The world is messed up and offers no hope. Jesus is our hope. Without Him, we are all deserving of condemnation.

 

When I lose my patience and yell at my kids I've never gotten away with saying, "It's just the way I am. You are just going to have to accept me this way and allow me to rant and rave as much as I please, because this is just me. I can't help it." Nope. Doesn't work. I think the same is true for all sin. Just because we have a strong desire to do something does not make it right. Feelings cannot be trusted. We need something outside of our experience to use as a standard for behavior - not so we can beat other people over the head when *they* don't meet that standard. Oh, no, no, no, no! We need it because it is our "user's manual" - it is the truth about who we are and who God is. Feelings change. God does not. His word does not.

 

What everyone needs to do is be more concerned with what God wants and not so concerned with what *we* want. Again, He made it all. Shouldn't we try to find out what He made it for and how we fit in it? Shouldn't we want to do what's best for ourselves and who would know better what that is than the God who made us?

 

And fwiw, I am *not* homophobic. I am not afraid of homosexuals or gluttons or any other kind of sinner for that matter. I do not like labeling people by their individual sins. Sinners are sinners and sinners need Christ. We are all sinners and we all need Christ.

 

OK, I'm done (really!).

 

This is absolutely the best post I have EVER read on the WTM board. I agree 100% !!!

Michelle My Bell

[Laura Corin]

There are all kinds of "lifestyles" one can lead whether gay or straight. Being gay is not a lifestyle choice. Many of my gay friends live a lifestyle just like mine. Many of my gay friends live a lifestyle much much better than some of the so- called "Christians" I know.

 

How can anyone pretend they can teach their kids when they don't have a degree to teach? These kids need to be in school with other kids, how else will they ever learn to live in the real world? They are missing out on all kinds of wonderful experiences.------- How in the world a minority group who faces discrimination itself feels it is right to hurl insults, generalizations, and general ignorance-based hate at another group is beyond me. I thought logic was supposed to be part of a classical education:confused:

:iagree:

 

Laura

[AmyB]

Why didn't Jesus ever give a sermon against homosexuality, or even mention it? He condemned tax collectors, money changers, politicians and lawyers, yet Christians never condemn them. In fact, many Christians are lawyers and politicans, and want their kids to become lawyers and politicians.

 

Rebecca, look up those two words in some online dictionaries. They have very different meanings.

[Nicole M]

Why didn't Jesus ever give a sermon against homosexuality, or even mention it? He condemned tax collectors, money changers, politicians and lawyers, yet Christians never condemn them. In fact, many Christians are lawyers and politicans, and want their kids to become lawyers and politicians.

 

Rebecca, look up those two words in some online dictionaries. They have very different meanings.

 

Did you mean the two words sodomite and homosexual?

[AmyB]

nt

[Heather in Neverland]

In the end, there can really be no effective conversation on these kind of issues between people who don't believe the Bible is the literal truth and word of a God, who don't even believe in the Christian perception of a Christian God who judges humanity in these ways, and those who do.

 

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Christians, like myself, who believe the Bible to be 100% true will base every viewpoint they have starting with that presupposition. In order for me to agree with some of the opinions expressed here I would have to give up that belief which I am not willing to do.

 

If a person does NOT believe the Bible to be 100% true then they are starting with an entirely different set of presuppositions. In order for them to be convinced that my opinion is correct, they would have to change their mind about the Bible....something they are probably not willing to do.

 

Therefore, it seems the only usefulness in this discussion would be for us all to at least TRY to understand where the other person is coming from, even if you don't agree with them and most likely, agree to disagree.

 

We can go ahead and state our opinions on the topic all day long but it is unlikely that anyone will change their stance. And that's OK... land of the free and all.

[Nicole M]

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Christians, like myself, who believe the Bible to be 100% true will base every viewpoint they have starting with that presupposition. In order for me to agree with some of the opinions expressed here I would have to give up that belief which I am not willing to do.

 

If a person does NOT believe the Bible to be 100% true then they are starting with an entirely different set of presuppositions. In order for them to be convinced that my opinion is correct, they would have to change their mind about the Bible....something they are probably not willing to do.

 

Therefore, it seems the only usefulness in this discussion would be for us all to at least TRY to understand where the other person is coming from, even if you don't agree with them and most likely, agree to disagree.

 

We can go ahead and state our opinions on the topic all day long but it is unlikely that anyone will change their stance. And that's OK... land of the free and all.

 

I want to be clear that my intention was not to start a discussion that would lead to any change in anyone's viewpoint. Conversation and conversion are quite different things! A basic understanding of the vocabulary of persons holding a radically different viewpoint than mine, however, seems like an awfully important first step. I did not feel that I could respectfully and lovingly agree to disagree until I understood what the heck everyone was talking about.

 

Truly, when I hear the words homosexuality and lifestyle and choice in a sentence together all meaning disappears and I am lost. (This is the best case scenario. The worst case is that I have a knee-jerk, gut reaction that his full of hurt and despair and astonishment.) And, in addition, there seems to be in these situations a unspoken complicity (not the right word, help me!) among persons with a similar pov, where the meaning is taken for granted, understood, sometimes, but not always, with a kind of wink, wink, nudge, nudge - I wanted to get past that, behind it, to tease out some understanding of this pov by pointing out my own drastic confusion about what is intended.

 

I think we have started a conversation here, and done so with as much respect and kindness and civility as can be expected - perhaps more than can be expected - when a subject so intimate and private and loaded with emotion. I truly thank everyone who has put forth their thoughts and feelings about this.

 

A dump truck with five yards of compost has just arrived at our house, so I will have to deal with that before finishing my thoughts here.

[Kathleen in VA]

I wasn’t going to get back into this, but I see a serious misunderstanding of the nature of Christianity here and I think that it is important to try to explain, to the best of my ability, what Christianity is.

 

Specifically, I want to address is this business of “loving one’s neighbor†and how that is not as simple as it sounds. Yes, it would be very nice if I could just say, “You do whatever you want and I’ll do whatever I want and we’ll all just be happy.†But what if what I want interferes with what you want? What if what I want causes others to be hurt? What if what I want is self-destructive? Is it really loving to let someone destroy their life?

 

The thing is, if I am a Christian and I believe the Bible says that some behavior (it doesn’t matter which one for the sake of explaining what Christianity is - there are lots to pick from) is sinful and by doing that behavior you are bringing eternal condemnation upon yourself then I will try to avoid it personally and I will tell all those I love and care about it to avoid it as well. Love is not just accepting people for what they are. It is also telling people they are in trouble and need help.

 

If I drove by your house and saw that it was on fire I would stop and tell you. If you were in another part of the house and could not see from your vantage point that the house was, indeed, burning down, you might say, “No, you are mistaken, it is not really on fire. I appreciate your concern, but you see we are just fine as we are.†Well, if I really loved you I wouldn’t leave it at that. I would drag you out of the house and point to the flames and say, “Yes, your house truly is on fire and you need to get out NOW!†Once you realized I was telling you the truth you’d agree and run out taking all your children with you and you’d be very grateful to me for having warned you and possibly saving your life.

 

Christianity is like that. We read in the Bible that all men are sinners (not whatever group you happen to have a particular disdain for on any given day) - all men. None of us can look down our noses at anyone else and say they are a worse sinner than we are. There is no such thing as a “worse†sinner. Christianity makes no such distinction. People sometimes make that distinction (a result of pride and wanting to feel like they are not so bad), but the Bible certainly does not. We are all sinners. If we have sinned at all we are guilty of all. If I truly care about you I am going to tell you that you need salvation.

 

God is not keeping score regarding our behavior. We are either perfect or we are not. He does not care about our piddling attempts at “being good.†The Bible says that only God is truly good, the rest of us are bad. That’s all of us - every last one. Whatever good works we do are only possible by the Holy Spirit working through us. We should try to do the right thing and be good, but not to earn our salvation or earn points in our favor. We do good because once we are saved we want to obey God and bring Him glory - our “good works†are an offering of thanksgiving. If we say we are saved but we do not care about bringing God glory then we do understand salvation.

 

If I were doing something destructive to myself or others, I would consider it a loving act for someone to try to get me to stop. I would not think of it as “intolerant†or that they were not loving their neighbor. I might not appreciate it or want to hear it, but I could not question their motives. I would not accuse them of being unloving. Love wants only what is best for others.

 

If I were driving along and saw a sign that said, “Stop! Road ends in 50 yards and there is a 5000 ft. drop after that,†I would be very, very grateful for that sign. I wouldn’t call it intolerant or unloving to post that sign.

 

Love can take many forms, not the least of which is saying, “Stop! You are about to hurt yourself.†We do this with our children all the time and we do not think of it as being intolerant or unloving - quite the opposite.

 

My sole purpose in stating that anything is wrong would be to warn those involved in such behavior that it is self-destructive and, if not repented of, will land them someplace they don’t want to go. I think that is the most loving thing I could do if that is what I truly believe. Wouldn’t you want to be warned if you were truly headed for hell? How can I say I love you if I say I don’t care how you spend eternity?

 

Christianity is not about keeping the law of God to merit eternal life. It is about knowing you cannot keep it and that you need a Savior who kept it for you. It is about admitting you can do nothing to save yourself and that Christ has done it all. It is about telling others so they, too, can be saved. That is love.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

How in the world is being gay self-destructive or hurting others?

[Kathleen in VA]

How in the world is being gay self-destructive or hurting others?

 

The Bible says it is sin. It goes against God's natural order. Sometimes we do things, say smoking for instance, that are destructive but the effects are not felt for decades. God says it is wrong and He made the world. He knows how it is destructive - he made us and he knows right down to the cellular level how it is destructive. He does not want us to destroy ourselves so he prohibits these acts in His word. He does that because He loves us.

 

We just need to trust that if God says it is sin then it is not His will. He has a reason for that. We do not always have to know that reason or see it.

 

When Adam and Eve disobeyed Him by partaking of the forbidden fruit they did not fall over dead that instant. But death began working in them and they eventually died. God told them not to do it and they did not trust Him. They found out that was a foolish thing to do.

 

This is where faith comes in. We trust when we do not have it all laid out before us. Don't we do that with each other? Somebody says, "Close your eyes and no peeking!" We trust they are not going punch us in the face, but rather have something nice they want to give us. We do not demand to see it first. Why do we trust? Because we know they love us.

[SusanG]

God is not keeping score regarding our behavior. We are either perfect or we are not. He does not care about our piddling attempts at “being good.†The Bible says that only God is truly good, the rest of us are bad. That’s all of us - every last one.

 

And this is, in a nutshell, why I will never call myself a Christian. I find the above absolutely horrifying.

[Kathleen in VA]

Just want to add that, actually, my post about "loving your neighbor" isn't about being gay or not. Obviously, *I* believe homosexuality is destructive behavior but the point *is* how is it unloving to try to warn someone if you think they are in trouble (even if it turns out that they really aren't)? It is the motives I was addressing, not the accuracy of the belief. If I love someone, I will do whatever I can in my power and given my set of beliefs to keep them safe and happy.

 

I was not trying to make a case for or against homosexuality in that post, I was just trying to point out that if someone holds a belief that something can cause harm to their loved one it is perfectly understandable for them to say something. It is the *motivation* behind their speech that matters. Does that make any sense? In that context, it doesn't matter whether you believe that homosexuality is right or wrong - you can still appreciate the other person's concern for those they feel are in danger.

[Old Dominion Heather]

If you are a Christian who believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible, then performing homosexual acts is a sin and as a SIN, it is by its nature "self-destructive" in that it is a wrong act that separates you from God. Just as ANY other sin is also self-destructive and separates you from God. Homosexuals are not more sinful than the general population. We are all sinners, and I am chief among them, something that Kathleen has already emphasized.

 

Lying, gossip, greed, lust, envy, and sexual immorality, all of these, if you are not a Christian or don't ascribe to a religion that considers these evil acts; then ALL of these might be considered normal, or excusable in some circumstances. But if you are a Christian, they are not ok. They just aren't.

 

There isn't any real way to explain this to someone who isn't an adherent of the same belief system. At some point, we just begin to go around in circles. with one person saying "No, it isn't" and the other saying "Yes, it is." At some point, further discussion becomes pointless.

[Scarlett]

 

I'm a little confused if you are referring to those in this thread who spoke out against homosexuality. If so, then I don't see one single person saying they think 'their' God loves them more than He loves the rest of the world. Certainly, I can say I don't feel that way. I do feel confident about God's feelings on homosexual acts or practices based upon my study of scripture. As someone else mentioned if a person discounts the Bible as God's inspired Word, then there is no starting point with which to have a discussion about it. There are many different kinds of sin, and we all sin. According to the Bible, to gain God's approval we must strive to not practice any sin. I didn't set the standard---I'm only doing my personal best to live by those standards, even the ones that don't come easy to me.

 

The thinking that everyone gets to decide what is right and wrong for themselves is a dangerous thing.

[Heather in Neverland]

I was not trying to make a case for or against homosexuality in that post, I was just trying to point out that if someone holds a belief that something can cause harm to their loved one it is perfectly understandable for them to say something. It is the *motivation* behind their speech that matters.

 

Thank you for saying this more eloquently than I could. This is what I was getting at regarding presuppositions. I was NOT intimating that the OP should not have ever brought up the topic...I think it is healthy to discuss matters in which we all differ. What I was saying was that the "motivation" behind all of our opinions is based in a set of beliefs. Unless we are willing to change what we believe, the most we can hope for is a mutual respect for each other as human beings and this does not necessarily include condoning the behavior of one another.

 

A person can explain to me all the reasons why they think homosexuality is OK and I can listen intently and consider their argument but unless I am willing to say I do not believe the Bible is correct, none of their explanations can change my opinion.

 

I can explain to someone else that homosexuality is a sin and they can listen intently and consider my argument but unless they are willing to admit that what the Bible says is true, they will not change their minds.

 

So we are left with agreeing to disagree...or the uglier side of it, hating one another. I'll choose to agree to disagree.

 

How does that saying go? Love the sinner, not the sin? And if we are all sinners then we should all love each other even if we don't love what each person does.

[Nicole M]

 

A person can explain to me all the reasons why they think homosexuality is OK and I can listen intently and consider their argument but unless I am willing to say I do not believe the Bible is correct, none of their explanations can change my opinion.

 

 

Is there any room in your mind and heart to acknowledge that your understanding of what the bible says might be... incorrect?

[PameliaSue]

Is there any room in your mind and heart to acknowledge that your understanding of what the bible says might be... incorrect?

 

I know this question wasn't directed to me but I felt compeled to answer.

No, the Bible is VERY clear on all types of sin and homosexual behavior is one of them. There is NO misunderstanding it. That is why Jew, Muslim and Christain ALL agree that God says its sin.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Ok- so according to some people's flavor of Christianity, being gay is self-destructive because it's a sin. I am still not seeing how it hurts others. :confused:

 

FWIW- I attend church weekly, but my flavor of religion is accepting of everyone.

[SusanG]

I know this question wasn't directed to me but I felt compeled to answer.

No, the Bible is VERY clear on all types of sin and homosexual behavior is one of them. There is NO misunderstanding it. That is why Jew, Muslim and Christain ALL agree that God says its sin.

 

 

I'm sorry, but all Christians do NOT agree that it's a sin - there are many, many, MANY Christians that interpret the bible differently than you do.

[Heather in Neverland]

I know this question wasn't directed to me but I felt compeled to answer.

No, the Bible is VERY clear on all types of sin and homosexual behavior is one of them. There is NO misunderstanding it. That is why Jew, Muslim and Christain ALL agree that God says its sin.

 

:iagree:

[PameliaSue]

God is not keeping score regarding our behavior. We are either perfect or we are not. He does not care about our piddling attempts at “being good.†The Bible says that only God is truly good, the rest of us are bad. That’s all of us - every last one.

 

And this is, in a nutshell, why I will never call myself a Christian. I find the above absolutely horrifying.

 

I disagree with Kathleen and it is interpretation of scripture like this that leads to conclusions like Susan has come to.

I think that your intentions are good Kathleen but they are a very Roman Catholic view of scripture. Which you may very well be. Or maybe I have misunderstood the point you were trying to make. Whether you are RC or not history shows us that disagreements over scripture interpretation has caused many church splits.

Scripture does say that aside from Christ there is nothing good in us but you left out that we are made in the image of Christ. That is why there are perfectly wonderful, generous, loving, sacrificing people in the world who aren't believers in Christ. Every human has the capacity of the Living God written in their very being. Are we little gods, NO but we have some of his capacities on a small, small, small level. It is easy to worship the created instead of the creator because a piece of the artist is ALWAYS in his art. Yes, sin entered the world and corruption reigns but mankind is still made in God's image and so it still shines through. The good in each of us whether you are a believer or not is the image of God shining through.

I could write a book on this but someone already has. The title may sound pagan but I assure you it is not. Listening for the Heartbeat of God: A Celtic Spirituality by J. Philip Newell

[Alenee]

I'm sorry, but all Christians do NOT agree that it's a sin - there are many, many, MANY Christians that interpret the bible differently than you do.

 

I have to agree with you here but probably not for the same reasons.

 

As I said in a recent thread, God takes the sinner (whoever they may be and whatever they have done) right.where.they.are. This means that one person is going to be personally convicted of different sin at different times than another person. My sister is a Christian however she believes that being gay is okay. Yet she's personally convicted that sex outside of marriage for her is not okay. She's a perfect example of being convicted at different times than others are on the same issues. God's taken her right where she's at.

 

I used to feel the same way, however, I read everything in the bible about homosexuality/all sexual types of sin and have come to the conclusion that every sexual act outside of marriage between a husband and a wife is sin. Do I personally condemn those who have sexual relations outside of that marriage design? NO!!! That's not my job. That's why we have the Holy Spirit.

 

SusanG and others on this same line, what I think you've been overlooking in the different posts is that God loves ALL people, including those who are living (or not) with a partner that they are not married to and having relations with. He wants all people to come to know who He is and the love that He has for them. He wants us ALL to have the very best. Unfortunately, people don't like being told they're sinners and so you get this big hullabaloo over the word "sin", which completely overlooks the fact that Christ died so we could be taken right where we're at. Nothing we do will change His love for us. He loves us all the same as the day He created us, no matter what we've done or haven't done. And His love is FAR GREATER than anything we could wish for.

 

My bil is gay and living with his partner, they're even legally married by CA law. I really don't care what he does in the bedroom but I do pray that some day he'll come to know how much God loves him. Until he (or any person for that matter) understands that by nature he's a sinner and needs Jesus, nothing else, not pointing out any particular sin, is going to matter. And this goes for everyone. Jesus said, "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and spirit, and love your neighbor as yourself." That doesn't mean you go running up to every single person pointing your finger at individual sins. Leave that to God on judgement day.

 

This is how I believe we're supposed to do it, until we have a deeper relationship with a particular person, we need to take the speck out of our own eye first.

[Kathleen in VA]

I disagree with Kathleen and it is interpretation of scripture like this that leads to conclusions like Susan has come to.

I think that your intentions are good Kathleen but they are a very Roman Catholic view of scripture. Which you may very well be. Or maybe I have misunderstood the point you were trying to make. Whether you are RC or not history shows us that disagreements over scripture interpretation has caused many church splits.

Scripture does say that aside from Christ there is nothing good in us but you left out that we are made in the image of Christ. That is why there are perfectly wonderful, generous, loving, sacrificing people in the world who aren't believers in Christ. Every human has the capacity of the Living God written in their very being. Are we little gods, NO but we have some of his capacities on a small, small, small level. It is easy to worship the created instead of the creator because a piece of the artist is ALWAYS in his art. Yes, sin entered the world and corruption reigns but mankind is still made in God's image and so it still shines through. The good in each of us whether you are a believer or not is the image of God shining through.

I could write a book on this but someone already has. The title may sound pagan but I assure you it is not. Listening for the Heartbeat of God: A Celtic Spirituality by J. Philip Newell

 

Well, just for the record, I am not Roman Catholic - I am Baptist. Each time I've reread that part of my post I thought it might have sounded a bit harsh. I do not always put things in the best way. I was just trying to make the point that as far as our salvation is concerned we can not earn it. God is not going to weigh our good acts against our bad acts and if we tip the scales on the good side allow us into heaven.

 

Our entrance into heaven is not dependent on our works. That was what I was trying to say. I, for one, find that very comforting. I am so very glad that I have a Savior who lived for me, died for me, rose again and conquered death and intercedes on my behalf daily. I'm so very thankful that my salvation does not depend on my ability to meet a standard I could never reach.

 

I agree with you that we are made in the image of God and for that reason every single person has infinite value and worth.

 

If you click on my blog link you will get a better idea of how I see man in relation to God - if you still care:).

[PameliaSue]

I'm sorry, but all Christians do NOT agree that it's a sin - there are many, many, MANY Christians that interpret the bible differently than you do.

 

There are always people willing to bend the rules.

As a WHOLE (I'd say 98%) of those 3 faiths interpret it as a sin.

And in centuries past is has most certainly ALL ACROSS the board been interpreted as sin, the church has never swayed on this until the recent PRESSURE of society.

[Scarlett]

Well, just for the record, I am not Roman Catholic - I am Baptist. Each time I've reread that part of my post I thought it might have sounded a bit harsh. I do not always put things in the best way. I was just trying to make the point that as far as our salvation is concerned we can not earn it. God is not going to weigh our good acts against our bad acts and if we tip the scales on the good side allow us into heaven.

 

Our entrance into heaven is not dependent on our works. That was what I was trying to say. I, for one, find that very comforting. I am so very glad that I have a Savior who lived for me, died for me, rose again and conquered death and intercedes on my behalf daily. I'm so very thankful that my salvation does not depend on my ability to meet a standard I could never reach.

 

I agree with you that we are made in the image of God and for that reason every single person has infinite value and worth.

 

If you click on my blog link you will get a better idea of how I see man in relation to God - if you still care:).

 

I understood your post perfectly. It is easy to pick one phrase out of anyone's post and say, 'see! She how she is? See how her God is?' Anyway, if anyone is interested in how God feels about things, they do have the Bible to read. There are many many scriptures that point to God's tender love for human kind...Love is God's foremost attribute. It is true that His ways are above our ways and he knows more than us and is above us----that makes it so much more precious that he views us kindly and compassionately.

[PameliaSue]

Kathleen, I appreciate your effort to make yourself understood.

I agree with you that no man can earn his way into heaven nor can he do anything to cause God to love him any more than he is already loved.

[SusanG]

There are always people willing to bend the rules.

As a WHOLE (I'd say 98%) of those 3 faiths interpret it as a sin.

And in centuries past is has most certainly ALL ACROSS the board been interpreted as sin, the church has never swayed on this until the recent PRESSURE of society.

 

I don't believe it's 98%, particularly when you leave out the Muslim faith. I have known maybe 20 practicing Jews in my life, and none of them believed homosexuality was a sin. I'd say that of all the Christian friends I've had in my life "irl", maybe 2/3 think it's a sin, and of those, some are just not sure. Perhaps it's a regional thing?

 

And I take issue with your claiming these people are "bending the rules" - they are merely interpreting their holy books differently than you do, most of the time with guidance from their clergy.

[PameliaSue]

This is how I believe we're supposed to do it, until we have a deeper relationship with a particular person, we need to take the speck out of our own eye first.

 

I agree with you.

However, as a Christian I am obligated to vote my moral center. I am obligated to yank my kids from school to keep them from deviant sexual indoctrination. I am obligated to support my local pregnancy care center. And when asked I am obligated to say, "Yes, the Bible says homosexuality is a sin."

[PameliaSue]

So we are left with agreeing to disagree...or the uglier side of it, hating one another. I'll choose to agree to disagree.

 

How does that saying go? Love the sinner, not the sin? And if we are all sinners then we should all love each other even if we don't love what each person does.

:iagree:

[Colleen]

Is there any room in your mind and heart to acknowledge that your understanding of what the bible says might be... incorrect?

 

With all due respect, I don't think there's anything Heather or anyone else is going to say here that will be a real light bulb moment for you. As far as I know, you're pretty well-versed in the theology being presented here. It's not new to you. You're aware that there are people who do believe God's Word to be infallible. None of the Christians who have responded here have claimed to be Perfect in terms of their understanding. But they study, they pray, and between that and their belief re the infallibility of Scripture, *this* ~ what's being put forth here ~ is their belief. There is often the desire by people who disagree with that belief to insist that such interpretation is self-righteous. That it's based on prejudice. That it stems from lack of education, lack of open-mindedness. It is difficult if not impossible for someone like Heather, someone like Kathleen ~ for those who are responding here from a particular Christian perspective ~ to "prove" anything to you. Faith isn't that simple.

[Colleen]

the God they believe in, who apparently loves them more than the rest of the world who don't believe in Him

 

I've never heard or read anyone say or intimate such a thing. On the other hand, I've heard many, many people claim that's what Christians are saying. Leads me to wonder about selective listening.

 

I must admit I am taken aback, again, by the people who are so darned certain that they know exactly what the God they believe in...thinks about homosexuality. That kind of certainty is such a dangerous thing.

 

Why?

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I am obligated to yank my kids from school to keep them from deviant sexual indoctrination.

 

This is where merely having personal religious beliefs that dictate personal behaviors (which I totally respect, no matter what the religion) crosses over into discrimination.

 

So are you saying you would not "allow" your child to be friends with someone who is gay? Would you also not allow your child to be friends with someone who commits some of the other sins mentioned, such as lying and gossiping?

[CAMom]

This is where merely having personal religious beliefs that dictate personal behaviors (which I totally respect, no matter what the religion) crosses over into discrimination.

 

So are you saying you would not "allow" your child to be friends with someone who is gay? Would you also not allow your child to be friends with someone who commits some of the other sins mentioned, such as lying and gossiping?

 

There's a difference between having a gay friend and being in an institution that indoctrinates thoughts against your beliefs.

 

I'm a Christian. I believe homosexual acts are most certainly a sin. I also have a very dear, dear friend who came out to me as gay about 10 years ago. He knows my beliefs very well. We still love each other and we are still friends. My kids understand that he is gay and that we do not condone any sin he would commit but that we still love him.

 

I would also limit my kids' time with any friend who openly sinned in any way. That doesn't mean that we won't spend time with those who do not share our beliefs, though.

[Kathleen in VA]

This is where merely having personal religious beliefs that dictate personal behaviors (which I totally respect, no matter what the religion) crosses over into discrimination.

 

So are you saying you would not "allow" your child to be friends with someone who is gay? Would you also not allow your child to be friends with someone who commits some of the other sins mentioned, such as lying and gossiping?

 

Well, I cannot speak for PameliaSue, but I don't see anything in her post about not letting her children have a gay friend. I believe she is referring to the public school administration, faculty, etc. - those in authority - having an agenda to teach those in their system that homosexuality is acceptable behavior. They are her children, after all, and she has the right to raise them with her values. I would yank my children out of a school that taught that lying, gossiping, murdering and stealing were perfectly acceptable behaviors as well.

 

It's not about the children in the school - it's about those in authority undermining the authority of parents to teach their children their own religious beliefs.

[PariSarah]

I don't believe it's 98%, particularly when you leave out the Muslim faith. I have known maybe 20 practicing Jews in my life, and none of them believed homosexuality was a sin. I'd say that of all the Christian friends I've had in my life "irl", maybe 2/3 think it's a sin, and of those, some are just not sure. Perhaps it's a regional thing?

 

Acceptance of homosexual intercourse among adherents of traditionally anti-gay religions is highly concentrated in urban areas of North America and Western Europe. Acceptance of homosexual intercourse among Christians in Africa, Asia, and much of Latin America is near zero. I would say 98% is high for global Christianity, but not by much.

 

I don't know the stats as well on Judaism, but I agree that it's far less than 98%, even globally. Judaism has a strong tradition of dialogic interpretation of scripture (translation: they don't think God gets pissed when the community debates what scripture means and comes up with something new or different), and the strand of Judaism that is roughly analogous to evangelical or fundamentalist Christianity is underrepresented in the US (translation: there are literalist/fundamentalist Jews, but not many in the US).

 

Certainly, global Islam is heavily, but not exclusively, against homosexual intercourse. Pro-gay Muslims tend to be educated in the West and living in Western urban centers.

[Nicole M]

 

With all due respect, I don't think there's anything Heather or anyone else is going to say here that will be a real light bulb moment for you. As far as I know, you're pretty well-versed in the theology being presented here. It's not new to you. You're aware that there are people who do believe God's Word to be infallible. None of the Christians who have responded here have claimed to be Perfect in terms of their understanding. But they study, they pray, and between that and their belief re the infallibility of Scripture, *this* ~ what's being put forth here ~ is their belief. There is often the desire by people who disagree with that belief to insist that such interpretation is self-righteous. That it's based on prejudice. That it stems from lack of education, lack of open-mindedness. It is difficult if not impossible for someone like Heather, someone like Kathleen ~ for those who are responding here from a particular Christian perspective ~ to "prove" anything to you. Faith isn't that simple.

 

Colleen, this was just unfair and mean spirited. I am stunned.

 

I am not at all familiar with the theology being presented here. In fact, in the culture in which I was raised and trained this theology was loosely (mis)understood to be held by "others", those over there, those, who, in fact, gave Christianity a bad name. This theology was dismissed entirely so there was never any reason for me to become familiar with it.

 

I have not asked anyone to "prove" anything to me. And to accuse me of thinking that faith is "that simple" betrays in you the self-righteousness of which you are accusing me.

 

In point of fact, I have had several "light bulb moments", moments of breakthrough understanding. I was on the verge of posting them before heading out to work, but now have used up my time responding to you, so that will have to wait.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Colleen, this was just unfair and mean spirited. I am stunned.

----------

And to accuse me of thinking that faith is "that simple" betrays in you the self-righteousness of which you are accusing me.

 

 

Mmmm, I know you're gone, but when you get back I'd urge you to read Colleen's post again. She's in no way accusing you of being self-righteous. She's saying that those who present their beliefs as firm and dogmatic are often seen as self-righteous.

 

As to mean-spirited, well, I'm just not seeing it. How do you figure she's mean? Because she misunderstood your previous level of knowledge about beliefs?

[Jenny in Atl]

Certainly, global Islam is heavily, but not exclusively, against homosexual intercourse. Pro-gay Muslims tend to be educated in the West and living in Western urban centers.

 

Yes, in Iran & Saudi Arabia, it's punishable by death. I would say anti is an understatement.

[Scarlett]

Mmmm, I know you're gone, but when you get back I'd urge you to read Colleen's post again. She's in no way accusing you of being self-righteous. She's saying that those who present their beliefs as firm and dogmatic are often seen as self-righteous.

 

As to mean-spirited, well, I'm just not seeing it. How do you figure she's mean? Because she misunderstood your previous level of knowledge about beliefs?

 

I didn't see it either. Not at all.

[Colleen]

Colleen, this was just unfair and mean spirited. I am stunned.

 

I am so, so sorry, Nicole. Please believe me when I say that not only did I not intend to slight you in any way, but I truly don't know what I said that was unfair and mean spirited. In our private conversations with one another, I understood you to have been exposed to this theology ~ or misunderstood you, apparently. Please accept my apologies for not being a better listener.

 

I have not asked anyone to "prove" anything to me. And to accuse me of thinking that faith is "that simple" betrays in you the self-righteousness of which you are accusing me.

 

Goodness! I'm having trouble not overreacting to your harsh tone. Sometimes communication can be a tricky thing, can't it? Nowhere did I accuse you of self-righteousness. On the contrary, I said people who hold to the infallibility of Scripture are often accused of self-righteousness.

 

In point of fact, I have had several "light bulb moments", moments of breakthrough understanding. I was on the verge of posting them before heading out to work, but now have used up my time responding to you, so that will have to wait.

 

Well, pardon me for sharing my thoughts and thereby interrupting yours. I was primarily responding to the question you posed earlier, when you asked (this isn't verbatim) "Is there any room in your heart and mind to believe your understanding may be wrong?" That seems an odd response after people have done their best to convey their convictions of faith. After people have said, "I believe the Bible is the unerring, literal Word of God, and based on that, I believe....", it comes across to me as dismissive to simply say in response, "Couldn't you be wrong?" It comes across to me as putting them in a rather odd spot. If they say, "Well, yes, as I fallible human being, I could be wrong...", then naturally that is seen as evidence that their stance on the issue at hand is simply a matter of opinion. On the other hand, if they say, "No, I can't be wrong", they open themselves to accusations of being holier-than-thou. That is why, I think, Heather earlier said that sometimes people must agree to disagree on matters of faith.

 

Again, I apologize for any misinterpretations on my part and for offending you. For that, I am truly sorry. Perhaps if you can forgive me that, you might attempt to listen what I've said in these last two posts. Thank you.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

There's a difference between having a gay friend and being in an institution that indoctrinates thoughts against your beliefs.

 

Thanks for the clarification. What is taught here in our schools is that no one is allowed to discriminate against anyone on the basis of sexual orientation, and that being gay does not make one a bad person. Kids can seek help if they are confused and feel they can't go to their parents, but there is no indoctrination going on- only the teaching of tolerance and acceptance of others. I would hate for any child to grow up without learning those important lessons.

 

I would also limit my kids' time with any friend who openly sinned in any way.

 

But according to the infallible Bible, we are all sinners. So that means you would have to limit your children's time with everyone, including yourself, their siblings- all these people sin. Lol- just kidding, but what you are saying here sounds a bit like you think some sins are worse than others.

[Peek a Boo]

I am not going to analyse your post Peek. I am already in too deep and I may well even be wrong in my impression. I am sure not all Christians feel that God loves only Christians, but isn't it a part of the Christian culture to believe that when we die, only the Christians and only the good Christians at that, go to heaven? Isn't that part of the package? And the rest of us? Sorry, I am not so familiar with evangelical Christian beliefs, I don't know if they differ.

 

....

In the end, there can really be no effective conversation on these kind of issues between people who don't believe the Bible is the literal truth and word of a God, who don't even believe in the Christian perception of a Christian God who judges humanity in these ways, and those who do.

But it's sometimes fun trying, or sometimes it just feels like it's worth saying something anyway. Remember, the non Christians are the minority here- what can we say to "but God said"?

 

"only the Christians and only the good Christians at that" --no. it's "only the Christians" will sit at God's side. There is no "and the good Christians at that." God has made it super easy. We make it harder. Christianity is NOT about following a set of rules.

 

I do agree about not being able to carry on a conversation w/o basic common ground.

 

 

And this is, in a nutshell, why I will never call myself a Christian. I find the above absolutely horrifying.

 

Yes, acknowledging only one side of the coin is Very Horrifying. Ignoring the rest of the story is horrifying. I absolutely agree.

 

I'm sorry, but all Christians do NOT agree that it's a sin - there are many, many, MANY Christians that interpret the bible differently than you do.

 

There are plenty of Christians who discount or dismiss or interpret various parts of the Bible. There are also lots of Christians [self included] who THEMSELVES have difficulty dealing objectively w/ different sins. But the Bible itself clearly states that homosexual behavior is a sin. You can read Romans chapter 1 if you have any doubt. God is clear, even when we have disagreements on interpretations.

 

 

 

Thanks for the clarification. What is taught here in our schools is that no one is allowed to discriminate against anyone on the basis of sexual orientation, and that being gay does not make one a bad person. Kids can seek help if they are confused and feel they can't go to their parents, but there is no indoctrination going on- only the teaching of tolerance and acceptance of others. I would hate for any child to grow up without learning those important lessons.

 

and I would hate for my children to grow up believing that it is ok to do something so blatantly against what God has commanded, and that it is ok go to someone who will teach them that God's laws are not supreme. That IS "indoctrination" --it is indoctrination against God's laws. But as long as it's your kind of indoctrination, you see it as ok and necessary.

 

 

But according to the infallible Bible, we are all sinners. So that means you would have to limit your children's time with everyone, including yourself, their siblings- all these people sin. Lol- just kidding, but what you are saying here sounds a bit like you think some sins are worse than others.

 

limit. yes.

according to our own biased humanness, we do see some sins as worse than others. God doesn't. Our own family spends many times a day discussing things we did that glorify God and things we do that dishonor Him. For me, it is better to limit exposure to sin to those situations where sin is taught as WRONG and God is taught as RIGHT. We can't escape sin in the world. We can, however, study diligently what glorifies God and what does not. That includes confession and repentance. I'm guessing that God being Supreme and the importance of repentance aren't in your school's scope n sequence, eh? ;)

[Kathleen in VA]

I think the distinction is that some people sin, know it is wrong, feel bad about it, ask forgiveness and then pick themselves up, brush themselves off and keep plugging away at getting it right.

 

Other folk think their behavior is fine and that everyone needs to just accept it.

 

Of course, if you don't consider your behavior a sin, then that makes sense. You'd expect others to just accept it and treat you no differently.

 

Think of it like this. If you knew someone was a thief and they had gone to prison, paid their debt, were sorry for their act and wanted to avoid that behavior in the future, well, you'd probably forgive them and just move on. But what if they weren't the least bit sorry and announced that they were planning to steal again and again and again and we'd better just accept them like that. I think that'd be kind of hard, don't you?

 

The sin of homosexuality presents a lot of different problems because most gay people don't think they are doing anything wrong and don't feel the need to repent of anything. This makes it difficult for a Christian to know how to respond. You desire very much to see the person turn from their sin, but that doesn't mean you don't appreciate other aspects of that person, especially if they are family or a friend or co-worker. My son's boss is gay, but they get along fine. My son even says they have similar managerial styles and work together well. My son is like me in his religious beliefs regarding the sin of homosexuality but it doesn't cause him to quit his job or avoid a business relationship with this fellow.

 

It is one thing to admit being a sinner and repent of that sin and try not to commit it and strive to live a holy life the best you can by God's grace. It is another to say you are a sinner and you have no intention of ever changing and you don't care. Does that make any sense?

 

If you are not a Christian and you see nothing wrong with a person being gay than I imagine this sounds very odd. A Christian sees homosexuality like any other sin. It should be repented of and abandoned.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

But as long as it's your kind of indoctrination, you see it as ok and necessary.

 

Tolerance, acceptance, and equality is absolutely necessary.

 

It is very wrong to assume just because someone disagrees with this line of thinking they are not a Christian. There are many many Christians who do not believe homosexuality is a sin, and many churches who welcome people of all sexual orientations.

 

The Bible also says that people who are born with physical deformities, mental illnesses, and disabilities come from sin and are "unclean" and I am completely against discriminating against them also. If my husband dies, I am not going to have sex with his brother until a male heir is produced. I'm anti-slavery, I don't believe my husband is worth more than me, and I wear clothes made from blended fabrics.