cdrumm4448 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I find it interesting that states, who were once concerned with providing equal educational OPPORTUNITY, now concern themselves with equal educational OUTCOME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Yell Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Originally Posted by Rebel Yell We submit standardized test scores in each grade, In my haste, i couldn't figure out a concise way to say "for each grade we are required to submit the test scores" but I did my best and edited my original post. Your location lists PA... in PA we only need test scores in 3rd, 5th, and 8th. ;) :) yes- I fixed my post. I get fired up and my finger get ahead of my brain, and my fingers can't type properly so that makes a real mess sometimes. :lol: Exactly. Useless hoop jumping. ITA-objectives are silly because you can be incredibly vague and broad so that they apply to every single year, they can't be used against you, etc. I'm sure you didn't mean to type that we are required to test every year, (see above- thanks!) but again, I agree testing is silly because the standard is "sustained progress in the overall program" and test results in and of themselves can't really be used against a parent. The days, the log, etc. are all silly too IMO. Counting days amuses me because we regularly engage in educational activities on weekends. I will check some weekend dates off. I'm sure there are districts that would roll their eyes at that, yet have no problem counting days where students watch non educational movies in class or go on fieldtrips to an amusement park (and I'm not talking about physics days). So I feel like they are thinking "silly homeschoolers" if I check of a box for a date that follows on a weekend., but I don't care ;) So we have to engage in a silly box-checking exercise, and even if I'm honest about it, I feel like the district will roll their eyes because I checked off weekend dates, iykwim. Someone on a local group recently mentioned that their district looked at their child's reading list and said he's not reading on grade level. THe mom was already well aware of this and if I remember correctly, he wasn't reading on grade level in school. She's aware of it, working on it, etc. Again, we are held to "sustained progress in the overall program." I'm sure the kid was making sustained progress according to what the mom said. There are kids who struggle with subjects and material at home, just like the would have in school. The point of the "log" is what exactly? To see if the kid is reading on grade level? But that isn't what we are held to, so it can't really be used against a HSing family, as far as I know. It just seems like lots of hoop jumping and paperwork that has very little meaning, and honestly, most of it couldn't be used to "prove" anything, even if the district wasn't happy. That's why I don't feel it really proves much in terms of accountability. Even in terms of subjects taught, my understanding is that legally the only subject that must be taught *every* year in PA is....fire safety. There is a list of subjects that must be covered in elementary school, but apparently those subjects don't all even have to be covered annually. The fire safety requirement means my kids review stop, drop, and roll with me, we talk about basic fire safety while we camp, we review how to exit our house and where we'd meet up if there was a house fire, and maybe they color in a worksheet. I could just stick a worksheet in there and it would count. eta: to the person who said they'd like to see some sort of external oversight, in PA you have a port reviewed by an evaluator. But if someone wants to, it is very easy to find evaluators who are a-ok with very minimal compliance ports. As in, I could generate the content for the whole port in about a week's time easily. I don't think it proves much. There are many USing friendly evaluators (I don't US but am supportive because I think it can work well in many families), etc. In PA, we have to jump through the hoop of locating and evaluator, meeting with an evaluator (and paying for that evaluator in most cases) an evaluator, they have to draft a letter saying you are doing okay, only to have to take the whole portfolio (including the evaluator letter) to the district superintendent anyway, so they can look through it. Our PDE changed their website recently to say that school districts can ask for the evaluator's credentials so that they can be verified using an online database. Districts want the evaluator's SS # so they can use their online database to look up whether the teacher/evaluator is certified. But our online database for certified teachers only says whether or not they are certified, not how much experience they have evaluating at various levels (secondary vs. elementary). Our law says the evaluator has to have 2 years of experience at the level they are evaluating...the database doesn't even tell the district that info anyway. There are also 4 other types of evaluator besides a certified teacher. Some of the evaluators are not too happy about being asked to cough up their SS# since they aren't employees of the district. Basically, they are making all sorts of requests about the evaluator's credentials, but they can't even verify what the law requires using the paperwork and info they are requesting :glare: In some states you take a port to an evaluator of your choice, then the evaluator's letter (but not the actual port) goes to the SD. That would at least be slightly more tolerable. :iagree: About the child in the above post reading books below grade level- we regularly use 'below grade level books" especially in History... Diamond is capable of reading at a post-college level, but she can read dozens of middle-school books in the same time frame- and gets more concise information. She does read higher-level books as required... I allow and encourage upper-elementary and middle-school books, especially for biographies. Not even the most dedicated student and compulsive reader can read everything. I have never been questioned about this- but her reading list if 5 pages long- 2 columns on each page...and those are just the books I know about and she remembers to write down. :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof3littles Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Originally Posted by Rebel Yell We submit standardized test scores in each grade, In my haste, i couldn't figure out a concise way to say "for each grade we are required to submit the test scores" but I did my best and edited my original post. :) yes- I fixed my post. I get fired up and my finger get ahead of my brain, and my fingers can't type properly so that makes a real mess sometimes. :lol: :iagree: About the child in the above post reading books below grade level- we regularly use 'below grade level books" especially in History... Diamond is capable of reading at a post-college level, but she can read dozens of middle-school books in the same time frame- and gets more concise information. She does read higher-level books as required... I allow and encourage upper-elementary and middle-school books, especially for biographies. Not even the most dedicated student and compulsive reader can read everything. I have never been questioned about this- but her reading list if 5 pages long- 2 columns on each page...and those are just the books I know about and she remembers to write down. :001_huh: Sorry for all of the typos! Rereading my quoted post makes me hang my head in shame LOL. I went back and fixed a few...sorry about that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hikin' Mama Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 because public schools already have state oversight, yet it seems there are never ending attempts to fix a broken system. I'm not sure how state oversight would help homeschoolers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Yell Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Sorry for all of the typos! Rereading my quoted post makes me hang my head in shame LOL. I went back and fixed a few...sorry about that! :lol: I think I need to add "Plus I'm procratinating on my eye surgery" to my sig... combine bad eyes and poor typing skills... I'm a mess! And FTR, I took my typing classes at the public schools in my highly regulated state. Plus another at the community college. Then I just gave up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidbits of Learning Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 If you live in a state that regulates homeschooling, do you think those regulations improve the quality of education for homeschooled students overall? Do the regulations lead to fewer "slackers" and more actual school work getting done? How easy would it be for someone to coast along in your state? I'm wondering because I live in NJ (not highly regulated). I used to think that our lack of oversight was a good thing -- less hoops, less forms. For myself, LOL, I still think it's great! :D Without getting into too many details about another family's life and choices, I've been wondering lately... :blink: Do HSers in regulated states end up doing a better job (than little to no teaching), or do "unregulatable" people slip by in every state, no matter what the rules? I am from a more regulated state than we currently live in at the moment. I never homeschooled there or knew any one homeschooled there. Our state has almost no regulation besides writing a letter of intent yearly. That is it. My home state requires attendance, portfolio, testing in 3rd and up, and you turn in your attendance to your local school district...I am thinking they have evaluations too. Anyway, I have noticed locally that most people join lots of hs social type co-ops and groups and well really are never home schooling. There is no way that anyone would know if they were dropping the ball unless they went back to b&m school or can't get into college. We had to go home for almost 4 months a year ago when my Mom was battling cancer. Luckily, we arrived with only a month left for ps school and we did not know how long we were staying. If we would have known we were staying more than 30 days and school would have still been in session, we would have been required to follow their state rules. I did check into a homeschool group while I was there and my kids played on a soccer team with some homeschoolers there. They definitely were not slacking. So I do think that without any rules, there are certain types of people who tend to do the least amount required. So I think there should be some sort of check in to make sure a child isn't just being educationally neglected. I have seen a lot of educational neglect in the state we live in at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 I'm fine with you being glad with your regulations. Just keep them on your side of the river. ;) And, I would have no problem if NJ chose to do more questioning on an individual basis if there are any concerns. The law is there to use. Just don't make me have more work by default because someone else isn't doing his/her job. :iagree::lol::lol::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiddenJewel Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 So, now, I lean more towards actually wishing there were more regulation, not stupid hoop-jumping stuff like mentioned above, but things like making a yearly portfolio of their work, or having an outside person look at what you are doing. The nice thing is that you can do all those things on your own even without regulations. Each of us needs to do what is necessary to make sure you are educating your children well. If that means having someone else look at our work or testing regularly, then we need to do that. But it shouldn't require legislation to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Lots of homeschooling research is collected here: http://www.nheri.org/ I've heard the founder testify several times and believe he has research on the effects of regulation, but I don't have time right now to go to the site and find the related articles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 I knew a family that did nothing with their kids. Guess where they are now. If you don't care enough about your kids to actually educate them at home, you eventually don't want them around, either. They're back in public school. This is why public school teachers glare at me when they hear I'm homeschooling. :glare: Before they get to know my kids, they assume we're doing nothing, because that's been their exposure to "homeschooling families" -- kids who enter 8th grade unable to read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof3littles Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 This is why public school teachers glare at me when they hear I'm homeschooling. :glare: Before they get to know my kids, they assume we're doing nothing, because that's been their exposure to "homeschooling families" -- kids who enter 8th grade unable to read. I've known several teachers who name that as their objection to HSing, based on their previous experience. It usually comes down to 1-2 they've encountered the in their career. I've tried to point out that's a self-selected population...those who return to PS perhaps had reasons why HSing wasn't working for them. Of course, there are non academic reasons for returning to PS too, but there are many kids who return because HSing wasn't working out. That shouldn't reflect negatively on all HSers, but many teachers seem to assume that it does :glare: I understand that's their experience, but I would hope they realize they are seeing a snapshot, not the full population of HSers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nono Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 This is why public school teachers glare at me when they hear I'm homeschooling. :glare: Before they get to know my kids, they assume we're doing nothing, because that's been their exposure to "homeschooling families" -- kids who enter 8th grade unable to read. But in NJ, the district is supposed to test the incoming homeschooled child and level by ability, not by age. I know this did happen to one family...and the Mom kept her kids out for 1 more year, buckled down, and made up the difference so her kids could re-enter school with their age peers. If they aren't using the law to avoid these problems, they need to be glaring at their administration, not you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy the Valiant Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 This is why public school teachers glare at me when they hear I'm homeschooling. :glare: Before they get to know my kids, they assume we're doing nothing, because that's been their exposure to "homeschooling families" -- kids who enter 8th grade unable to read. I was a private school teacher before having children, and this is the reason I *VOWED* I would never, EVER home school any future children! :lol: Then a bunch of home schoolers in New England hired me to teach a small class, and I did a complete 180, right there at my kitchen table. (Sorry, I realize that contributes nothing to the original question. I don't think regulation of home schooling improves educational standards AT. ALL., but then - I don't think that's their intent, either.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 No, I don't think it improves things on the whole. I think people who want to slack or neglect their kids can do so even with regulation. Even in the most tightly regulated states, I think it is quite possible to produce the "right" paperwork even for a kid who doesn't have access to solid educational opportunities. In my tightly regulated state, it mostly feels like a whole lot of pointless hoop jumping that proves absolutely nothing. . How could tight regulation improve anything for homeschoolers when there are multitudes of kids in regular schools who are learning little and barely or not passing state tests? The regulators can't even control what goes on IN THE SCHOOLS over which they have oversight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I believe private homeschools should be held to the exact same level of regulation as private classroom-based schools. If classroom-based private schools are not required to administer standardized tests, submit portfolios for each student, submit curriculum plans for approval to local PS administrators, etc. then neither should private homeschools. I can't see the traditional private school administrators putting up with the B.S. red tape that private homeschools are required to do in many states... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 What is the percentage of the school age population in a homeschool situation? (Those who turn in a DOI and aren't using K12 or a virtual academy or some other public school related option that would actually put their child in a public school stat.) Of that percentage, what percentage of homeschool families are experiencing educational neglect? IOW, how do the numbers compare between public school "failures" and homeschool "failures?" I ask because why do I have to jump through hoops, prove proficiency, stand on my head, etc., because some minor fraction of the over all population might not be educating their dc? All the regulations in the world aren't going to prevent dc from falling through the cracks. It is lousy and seriously stinks. But it is a reality. And cracking down on all families in the hopes of weeding out that occasional family seems like a huge waste of time and resources, especially when the institution burdened with that oversight has a proven failure rate of its own and needs to focus on the problems with which it is faced. My dd's soccer coach wanted families to show up to games 90 minutes early. My father is the asst coach and he asked him WHY do you want them here SO early? The answer was that he was hoping people wouldn't be late. My dad informed him that those who would be late would still be late and all he was doing was penalizing the families (the overwhelming majority of the team) who are always on time. Just sayin'... ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I believe private homeschools should be held to the exact same level of regulation as private classroom-based schools. If classroom-based private schools are not required to administer standardized tests, submit portfolios for each student, submit curriculum plans for approval to local PS administrators, etc. then neither should private homeschools. I can't see the traditional private school administrators putting up with the B.S. red tape that private homeschools are required to do in many states... Oh! I like that point!! :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I believe private homeschools should be held to the exact same level of regulation as private classroom-based schools. If classroom-based private schools are not required to administer standardized tests, submit portfolios for each student, submit curriculum plans for approval to local PS administrators, etc. then neither should private homeschools. I can't see the traditional private school administrators putting up with the B.S. red tape that private homeschools are required to do in many states... Well... they have different red tape. In the state where I worked in a private school there were two levels, so to speak, of private schools. First, you could be licensed to operate as a school by the state. That meant red tape for facilities and basic things like that - basic business regulations for anywhere and some extra stuff for dealing with kids and health and safety. Good things, all. Or almost all. But not things that homeschools should have to do, IMO. I do not, for example, need a designated biohazard waste trash can in my house. You could additionally be accredited by the accreditation association. I've been through that process. You don't do it every year, but it's like the worst portfolio review anyone ever dreamed up. Long... long... red tape filled in every possible arena for your curricula, your staff, your administration, your finances... Ugh. Also not something any homeschooler would want to do... On the other hand, unlike the state making a homeschooler jump through a bunch of hoops for the sake of their own rules, it was a process with a lot of integrity that really meant something. And a school could follow any model and still be accredited. It was more about how well you followed your own model and how well you were meeting the goals you said you were meeting. It could be sort of useful for homeschool high schoolers if there was some sort of homeschool accreditation in that model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelotmom Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I believe private homeschools should be held to the exact same level of regulation as private classroom-based schools. If classroom-based private schools are not required to administer standardized tests, submit portfolios for each student, submit curriculum plans for approval to local PS administrators, etc. then neither should private homeschools. I can't see the traditional private school administrators putting up with the B.S. red tape that private homeschools are required to do in many states... I knew you were in California before I looked at your location :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 You could additionally be accredited by the accreditation association. I've been through that process. You don't do it every year, but it's like the worst portfolio review anyone ever dreamed up. Long... long... red tape filled in every possible arena for your curricula, your staff, your administration, your finances... Ugh. Also not something any homeschooler would want to do... On the other hand, unlike the state making a homeschooler jump through a bunch of hoops for the sake of their own rules, it was a process with a lot of integrity that really meant something. And a school could follow any model and still be accredited. It was more about how well you followed your own model and how well you were meeting the goals you said you were meeting. It could be sort of useful for homeschool high schoolers if there was some sort of homeschool accreditation in that model. But the government doesn't require accreditation of traditional private schools. That is something that a private school can choose to do if they think it will help with recruiting students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 How could tight regulation improve anything for homeschoolers when there are multitudes of kids in regular schools who are learning little and barely or not passing state tests? The regulators can't even control what goes on IN THE SCHOOLS over which they have oversight. :001_huh:Yeah. I'm always left sitting here thinking, "Riiiight. 'Cause that's working so well for the public schools' results?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Yell Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 How could tight regulation improve anything for homeschoolers when there are multitudes of kids in regular schools who are learning little and barely or not passing state tests? The regulators can't even control what goes on IN THE SCHOOLS over which they have oversight. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Why do we always assume it would be the schools regulating homeschoolers? It could be some other dept. or person entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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