Why is Rick Warren so controversial among Christians? CC

[Spy Car]

We used to go to Saddleback - went there for years...it is a business more than a church and different Bible versions are used to support the topic...Another reason many feel he is not as effective as he could be is because of his waffling. Many are disappointed in his position on Prop 8 a while back in CA, which he stood and supported, but then he backed off in support of his friends who were opposed to it....

 

In contrast, in Costa Mesa, several miles from Saddleback is a church started by Chuck Smith back in the 60s. His entire premise was to teach through the Bible, cover to cover. Everyone told him it wouldn't work, that people would reject it because it wasn't relevant. Well, his church has grown to be one of the biggest churches in CA! And it's grown well beyond CA. He wasn't culturally relevant, yet people came because he simply taught the Bible. If we are called to "rightly divide the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15) as Chuck Smith does, then we can also wrongly divide the word of truth, which I think is what many Christians feel RW is doing....just my humble opinion.

 

I had cousins that were members of Chuck Smith's Costa Mesa church and am very familiar with the authoritarian abuse and cover up of sexual crimes that is endemic in his church.

 

This article in Christianity Today only scrapes the surface of the horrible situation Smith has perpetuated in his church:

 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/march/7.53.html

 

Chuck Smith is as bad a Joe Paterno.

 

Bill

Edited August 3, 2012 by Spy Car

[Singingmom]

Coming from a different POV, but I used to think of Calvary Chapel as "milk" for beginning believers in Christ. I also think of Saddleback Church as the same for the person off the street who never heard of a Bible. After a while, the person gets tired of milk and needs to move on to another church to be fed "meat". Different churches for different people.

 

I think the same thing about Calvary. Good milk, but milk, nonetheless.

 

 

We come from a non-denominational charismatic background. My cousin was recently ordained SBC. He was told from state and district officials that Rick Warren's church is under the cover of SBC. It is not its own denomination.

 

 

That's true, he is under SBC. Hey, TexMex, you wouldn't happen to be in Houston, would you? We are moving there soon, and I'd love to pick your brain about churches if you are :) .

[tex-mex]

That's true, he is under SBC. Hey, TexMex, you wouldn't happen to be in Houston, would you? We are moving there soon, and I'd love to pick your brain about churches if you are :) .

Ah, sorry... north of Dallas.

 

And we moved here from Southern CA back in 2005. I have lots of ministry friends here in TX, but have yet to find a church home. I think it is due to our disillusionment of the American Church mindset and bickering/infighting in general. Hubby was a missionary, worked for a nationally known charismatic intercessional group and now is an ordained minister since 1999. We are burnt out from tending the flock. ;) Now we attend a homechurch group weekly composed of former Pastors who are burnt out with churches like we are. It is a small group of 30-40 people and this summer, we had 6 of our members go overseas for short term mission work, for example.

[Singingmom]

Oh, bummer! I would have loved to have met up with you. Sounds like are in a good place right now with the home church?

 

I know a little about the burn out thing....husband and I have both been in ministry full time. He still works for a ministry here in So.CA.

 

Sending you a pm to see what we might have in common!

[ColoNative]

I had cousins that were members of Chuck Smith's Costa Mesa church and am very familiar with the authoritarian abuse and cover up of sexual crimes that is endemic in his church.

 

This article in Christianity Today only scrapes the surface of the horrible situation Smith has perpetuated in his church:

 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/march/7.53.html

 

Chuck Smith is as bad a Joe Paterno.

 

Bill

 

I would never assert that any man in any pulpit is perfect. We are all imperfect people in a sinful world. And I wasn't making this post about Chuck Smith. I was pointing out why some people are out of sync with what RW is doing. We have a loving God who sent his son Jesus to die for our sins who wants a relationship with each of us. The way to know God is through studying the Bible, and that was the point I was making. Teaching through the Bible leads far more people to God than a watered-down presentation to make people feel good, and if you've ever sat in teaching through the Bible, it is NOT milk. Try studying through Leviticus or Numbers without any understanding of the rest of the Bible - it won't be very meaningful. But when you study through the Bible, it all fits together and it's an amazing picture of God...again, that's what is missing with Warren's ministry.

[thefragile7393]

He is part of the prosperty ministry that I have all sorts of issues with.

[Singingmom]

No, he is not a part of the whole prosperity gospel movement. Not even close. I was raised in that mess, and he's nowhere on that map. Now, Osteen is another story....he is most definitely steeped in it.

[Spy Car]

I would never assert that any man in any pulpit is perfect. We are all imperfect people in a sinful world.

 

"Not perfect" is an insulting understatement for an authoritian preacher like Chuck Smith who has protected pastors who serve under his leadership who have engaged in sexual and physical abuse of children.

 

Not to mention the financial improprieties in his church.

 

And I wasn't making this post about Chuck Smith.

 

You were the one who brought up Chuck Smith as a contrast with Rick Warren. Whatever deficiencies Pastor Warren might have, he has not (to the best of my knowledge) covered up for the physical and sexual abuse of children by ministers of his church. Chuck Smith has.

 

Smith has also run his ministry in an "authoritarian" mode where legitimate questions about church leadership provoke personal attacks by Smith. The way he runs his church is pretty close to a cult of personality. Christianity Today is not a Christian bashing publication (by a long shot) and while the linked article is only part of the story is a pretty disturbing read.

 

 

I was pointing out why some people are out of sync with what RW is doing. We have a loving God who sent his son Jesus to die for our sins who wants a relationship with each of us. The way to know God is through studying the Bible, and that was the point I was making. Teaching through the Bible leads far more people to God than a watered-down presentation to make people feel good, and if you've ever sat in teaching through the Bible, it is NOT milk. Try studying through Leviticus or Numbers without any understanding of the rest of the Bible - it won't be very meaningful. But when you study through the Bible, it all fits together and it's an amazing picture of God...again, that's what is missing with Warren's ministry.

 

What is missing in Smith's ministry is basic morality. Enabling and protecting ministers who physically and sexually abuse children is about as low as it gets.

 

Bill

[Heatherwith4]

No, he is not a part of the whole prosperity gospel movement. Not even close. I was raised in that mess, and he's nowhere on that map. Now, Osteen is another story....he is most definitely steeped in it.

:iagree: I haven't found him to be part of the prosperity ministry.

[Singingmom]

I would never assert that any man in any pulpit is perfect. We are all imperfect people in a sinful world. And I wasn't making this post about Chuck Smith. I was pointing out why some people are out of sync with what RW is doing. We have a loving God who sent his son Jesus to die for our sins who wants a relationship with each of us. The way to know God is through studying the Bible, and that was the point I was making. Teaching through the Bible leads far more people to God than a watered-down presentation to make people feel good, and if you've ever sat in teaching through the Bible, it is NOT milk. Try studying through Leviticus or Numbers without any understanding of the rest of the Bible - it won't be very meaningful. But when you study through the Bible, it all fits together and it's an amazing picture of God...again, that's what is missing with Warren's ministry.

 

I attend a Calvary Chapel, and I agree that they do more to ground people in the Word than say, a Saddleback would ; especially if you are only going to the Weekend service. However, I do get frustrated with the....Basic- ness....if that is a word, and the lack of Spiritual vitality I see there. Even though I agree that Biblical literacy is dying out in our world,and is important, it is not all there is to growing in Christ. It is a big part, but not everything. If it were, then the Pharisees should have been the most Spiritual group of people on Earth.

 

Eta: I am not comparing the CC movement to the Pharisees. Just pointing out that studying the Bible doesn't automatically make you draw close to God. Anyone who has spent much time in a Bible College or Seminary can attest to that!

Edited August 3, 2012 by Singingmom

[mlbuchina]

Me too!:iagree:

 

I come from a very conservative Catholic upbringing and when I left that to go to a "non denominational" church, I thought I was simplifying my faith by focusing more on the bible. Ironically, it seems like religion got more complicated. It seems like every church has varying views on different verses in the bible. I, personally wonder, if this isn't exactly what satan (I have issues capitalizing his name) is trying to do....drive division between believers.

 

:iagree:

 

My apologies to the OP. I have no thoughts either way about Rick Warren. I didn't even know who it was at first. LOL

[Ellie]

:iagree: I haven't found him to be part of the prosperity ministry.

:iagree:

[PeacefulChaos]

a little watered down and too-willing to compromise beliefs. JMO. I don't really talk about it, though - he just isn't my cuppa. There are plenty out there that aren't - I just don't read their stuff.

 

I haven't read the rest of the thread. :)

[HappyGrace]

I find it interesting [ramping it up a notch now :tongue_smilie:] that John Piper sat on the same platform as Warren and apparently they had a long conversation which led Piper to invite him to his yearly conference. Now there's a bet I would have lost. Piper stated that Warren was very well versed in sound doctrine.

 

There you have it. One controversial figure endorsing another. :D

 

What is controversial about Piper? I'm just about to start listening to some of his sermons, so I'm curious-never knew he was considered controversial. (I am clueless on all this stuff though.)

[HappyGrace]

Here is the link to a site put up by John McArthur with several reviews and comments regarding Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven whatever.

 

I agree with what John MacArthur said in this link.

 

I attended a church some years back that the pastor had no qualms about saying he was trying to start a megachurch (and was well on his way.) They were very entrenched in the Saddleback stuff-sending their staff to train at Saddleback, etc. The doctrine was very similar to the Rick Warren stuff and so watered down. I did not realize it at the time, as a baby Christian, which is sad-I lost so many years where with good teaching I could have been so much more effective for Christ. It's just a very almost secular way of thinking and I think it's popular because it "tickles the ears" in our culture-preaches self-fulfillment rather than self-denial, is I think how MacArthur puts it.

 

Dangerous stuff.

[fiddle]

Rick Warren is controversial because he's in the limelight.. Saddleback is a seeker-oriented church and they are very good at what they do. RW is the FIRST person to tell you that you can't expect to grow spiritually by just showing up on Sundays to listen to his sermons. That is why the church encourages small group study where people can dig more in depth into issues. There are lots of other various bible studies, including the Beth Moore type studies for women (which I loved personally). They have a wonderful youth group, and open opportunities to minister in the community and on mission trips. There are pros and cons to any church. But Saddleback has taken its mission to evangelize very seriously. BTW- I've also attended Calvary and like the verse-by-verse Bible studies. While I LOVE this part of Calvary, Calvary doesn't have the level of regular activity of its members getting OUT to spread the word like Saddleback does.

 

I grew up in a small Baptist chruch. We'll be moving soon again and we'll be forced to look for a new home church. The most important thing about a church for me is not its size. Like I say, Rick Warren takes hits more than most simply because he's the pastor of one of the largest churches in America. I look to see whether the church focuses on the Bible and it's teachings doctrinally match up with mine.

 

Just my 2 cents:D

 

Paula

[Cricket]

What is controversial about Piper? I'm just about to start listening to some of his sermons, so I'm curious-never knew he was considered controversial. (I am clueless on all this stuff though.)

 

I never knew Piper was controversial either until this board. (I have family that attends his church.) I think he is mostly controversial outside of Christian circles. You can do a search on this board for his name if you are curious.

[SpecialClassical]

Rick Warren is controversial because he's in the limelight.. Saddleback is a seeker-oriented church and they are very good at what they do. RW is the FIRST person to tell you that you can't expect to grow spiritually by just showing up on Sundays to listen to his sermons. That is why the church encourages small group study where people can dig more in depth into issues. There are lots of other various bible studies, including the Beth Moore type studies for women (which I loved personally). They have a wonderful youth group, and open opportunities to minister in the community and on mission trips. There are pros and cons to any church. But Saddleback has taken its mission to evangelize very seriously. BTW- I've also attended Calvary and like the verse-by-verse Bible studies. While I LOVE this part of Calvary, Calvary doesn't have the level of regular activity of its members getting OUT to spread the word like Saddleback does.

 

I grew up in a small Baptist chruch. We'll be moving soon again and we'll be forced to look for a new home church. The most important thing about a church for me is not its size. Like I say, Rick Warren takes hits more than most simply because he's the pastor of one of the largest churches in America. I look to see whether the church focuses on the Bible and it's teachings doctrinally match up with mine.

 

Just my 2 cents:D

 

Paula

 

I don't think he has taken hits just *because* he is the pastor of a large church. I read Purpose Driven Life and he used verses out of context. Much of what he said was okay, but he went about it in a lazy way. Also, our former pastor was a follower of his plan. I read an article in which Rick Warren advocated letting the older members of the congregation go their own way if they didn't like the new methods. It was a clear attitude of good riddance if you won't help us grow. His methods target young people and I think it is a huge shame to push elderly saints out of the church in order to grow. Perhaps those saints have some wisdom to share. I went to my pastor and explained my concern about this. He just politely listened, and it turned out he was fine with using Warren's methods.

 

Please note, this was several years ago and perhaps he has changed, we all do.

[HappyGrace]

I never knew Piper was controversial either until this board. (I have family that attends his church.) I think he is mostly controversial outside of Christian circles. You can do a search on this board for his name if you are curious.

 

Thanks-glad it's not just me!

[Singingmom]

I think this is the issue that has caused controversy in some circles....including Christian ones. Mainly, I think the controversy surrounding him is about his complementation views.

 

http://www.christianpost.com/news/john-piper-god-gave-christianity-a-masculine-feel-68385/

[LizzyBee]

Here is the link to a site put up by John McArthur with several reviews and comments regarding Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven whatever.

 

Ellie, I had to chuckle about having a link to John McArthur's criticism of Rick Warren in this thread since McArthur has himself been the subject of some controversy. :leaving:

[Spy Car]

I think this is the issue that has caused controversy in some circles....including Christian ones. Mainly, I think the controversy surrounding him is about his complementation views.

 

http://www.christianpost.com/news/john-piper-god-gave-christianity-a-masculine-feel-68385/

 

I know guys like John Piper are trying to fly under the flag of "complementarianism" but it is just plain old fashioned sexism as far as I can see it. He should "man up" to it.

 

Bill

[Quad Shot Academy]

Ellie, I had to chuckle about having a link to John McArthur's criticism of Rick Warren in this thread since McArthur has himself been the subject of some controversy. :leaving:

:iagree: :leaving:

[Marylou]

What is controversial about Piper? I'm just about to start listening to some of his sermons, so I'm curious-never knew he was considered controversial. (I am clueless on all this stuff though.)

 

Perhaps because he doesn't own a television and he also advocates exercising and getting enough rest.

 

Oh and he's so sexist :rolleyes:

[Spy Car]

 

Oh and he's so sexist :rolleyes:

 

That's for sure :rolleyes:

 

Bill

[Joanne]

I studied the Purpose Driven life in a Presbyterian USA church back when it came out.

 

All of the class and myself (mostly cradle Presbyterians, all over 30 years old) felt it was Christianity 101.

[Marylou]

That's for sure :rolleyes:

 

Bill

 

:rolleyes:

[LizzyBee]

I studied the Purpose Driven life in a Presbyterian USA church back when it came out.

 

All of the class and myself (mostly cradle Presbyterians, all over 30 years old) felt it was Christianity 101.

 

That's my opinion. I can see it being very helpful for a new Christian. I was surprised by the number of friends who are life-long, mature Christians who thought it was great for themselves.

[Cricket]

Perhaps because he doesn't own a television and he also advocates exercising and getting enough rest.

 

Oh and he's so sexist :rolleyes:

 

As to the sexist thing, there are no women pastors in his church but he doesn't advocate patriarchy as a group like Vision Forum does. My brother and his wife attend his church. My brother is a stay-at-home home schooling dad and she has a successful career. They are very comfortable and welcome in Piper's church. I don't think that would fly at Doug Phillips' church.

[Mrs Mungo]

That's my opinion. I can see it being very helpful for a new Christian. I was surprised by the number of friends who are life-long, mature Christians who thought it was great for themselves.

 

That would not surprise me at all. I have experience with many life-long Christians who don't have a fantastic grasp of Biblical principles.

 

I don't know that I would describe RW as soft-peddling the gospel. In general, I mean, not based on one specific book or message. I would have to think about that.

[LizzyBee]

That would not surprise me at all. I have experience with many life-long Christians who don't have a fantastic grasp of Biblical principles.

 

I don't know that I would describe RW as soft-peddling the gospel. In general, I mean, not based on one specific book or message. I would have to think about that.

 

I guess the surprising thing for me was that some of these women are pastor's wives who I would consider very well grounded.

[Mrs Mungo]

I also posted this on the s*x thread...which, sounds bad, but my thoughts spilled over and had to do with both.

 

My biggest problem with people like John Piper? Statements like this, "God revealed Himself in the Bible pervasively as king not queen; father not mother," this is not strictly true. It is more true that translators have favored masculine terms over feminine ones.

 

Man and woman were both made in His image. Jeremiah 31:20 is never translated as, "my womb trembles for him," even though that is a more accurate translation. Deuteronomy 32:18 and Isaiah 46:3-4 mention God giving birth. The words for breath, womb, mercy, compassion are all feminine imagery, until they are translated into English. God is *often* cast into feminine roles in parables and metaphors. I think it takes a LOT of ignoring to pretend that Christianity reveals God strictly in the masculine sense.

 

And this, "when it came to marriage they taught that the husband should be the head." But, a man is to give himself to his wife the way the Christ did for the church. The actual Biblical principle puts the man in a much greater place of sacrifice than the wife. But, this is not how it plays out for people like the blog in the OP. That is why patriarchy is such a problem, it is the antithesis of what is actually taught in The Bible.

[Singingmom]

I also posted this on the s*x thread...which, sounds bad, but my thoughts spilled over and had to do with both.

 

My biggest problem with people like John Piper? Statements like this, "God revealed Himself in the Bible pervasively as king not queen; father not mother," this is not strictly true. It is more true that translators have favored masculine terms over feminine ones.

 

Man and woman were both made in His image. Jeremiah 31:20 is never translated as, "my womb trembles for him," even though that is a more accurate translation. Deuteronomy 32:18 and Isaiah 46:3-4 mention God giving birth. The words for breath, womb, mercy, compassion are all feminine imagery, until they are translated into English. God is *often* cast into feminine roles in parables and metaphors. I think it takes a LOT of ignoring to pretend that Christianity reveals God strictly in the masculine sense.

 

And this, "when it came to marriage they taught that the husband should be

the head." But, a man is to give himself to his wife the way the Christ did for

the church. The actual Biblical principle puts the man in a much greater place

of sacrifice than the wife. But, this is not how it plays out for people like the

blog in the OP. That is why patriarchy is such a problem, it is the antithesis of

what is actually taught in The Bible.

 

Mrs. Mungo,

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: With all that you have written here. I find Piper's views of male hierarchy in church life and in the home a bit off center from what I understand Biblically.

 

And, speaking of translators changing things to favor the masculine, how about the female church leader Junia, whose name was changed to Junias ( male), to support the translator's views about male leadership? ;)

[JadeOrchidSong]

I have no idea what other people think, but I suspect that he draws fire because while he speaks out on topics of concern for our culture at large, he doesn't necessarily speak for the majority of grassroots Christians. He has a HUGE church, and I think many pastors have become enamored with Warren and want to follow his model and build megachurches so they can feel successful in ministry. But (speaking ONLY for myself here) megachurches are not necessarily a good thing. Too often, hurting seekers feel lost in the crowd in those huge churches, and they continue to bear their pain alone. Many people, myself included, prefer a more "personalized" atmosphere at church. I want to know everyone in my church by name, and I want them to know me. When I attend services, I want to feel that I am among dear friends--family, even.

:iagree::iagree:

That is why we left a huge church to join our present church. In a huge church, you can attend for three years or more and when you leave, no one notices you have been there and have left. That is how I felt! How CAN a mega church be seekers friendly if no one knows them? Yes, there are small groups you can join, but they tend to change from year to year for deeper relationship to form.

[JadeOrchidSong]

This kind of approach to salvation

 

http://www.saddleback.com/blogs/newsandviews/index.html?contentID=2085

 

makes me want to :ack2:

 

It is screaming, "Me, me, me! Do this and you will make Me happy and you will get MY books!" I wonder what Rick Warren feels when he stands a few feet away and reads his own 8 reasons really with his heart and his mind!

 

One should only get baptized because God's holy spirit leads him/her to, and not because of any pastor's self-glorifying 8 reasons!

[Singingmom]

It is screaming, "Me, me, me! Do this and you will make Me happy and you will get MY books!" I wonder what Rick Warren feels when he stands a few feet away and reads his own 8 reasons really with his heart and his mind!

 

One should only get baptized because God's holy spirit leads him/her to, and not because of any pastor's self-glorifying 8 reasons!

 

I do have to agree that I ws taken aback a bit when I read that. It didn't " hit me" well. BUT, it is not my place to judge his motives or his heart. I know that I have written things and have gone back to read them and thought, " gosh, I sounded like a jerk there!" it didn't come out the way I had intended. I had a negative knee jerk reaction to his " 8 reasons", too ; but maybe, just maybe, he got excited about people getting baptized and got carried away with himself. I guess I am just saying that in this case, I feel better about giving him the benefit of the doubt rather than to ascribe motives.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Singingmom

[Ellie]

:iagree::iagree:

That is why we left a huge church to join our present church. In a huge church, you can attend for three years or more and when you leave, no one notices you have been there and have left. That is how I felt! How CAN a mega church be seekers friendly if no one knows them? Yes, there are small groups you can join, but they tend to change from year to year for deeper relationship to form.

The seeker-friendly mentality means that people get sucked in because of the professional quality of the music, the sermons which makes them feel good about themselves, and not having to make any commitment to get more involved if they don't want to.

 

In any large church, you have to be involved in *something*, whether it's choir or the different committees or *something.* That used to also include Sunday school, but many churches (especially seeker-friendly churches, which tend to call them "Bible studies" instead of "Sunday school") no longer have them.

[tex-mex]

That would not surprise me at all. I have experience with many life-long Christians who don't have a fantastic grasp of Biblical principles.

 

:iagree:

[Singingmom]

The seeker-friendly mentality means that people get sucked in because of the professional quality of the music, the sermons which makes them feel good about themselves, and not having to make any commitment to get more involved if they don't want to.

 

In any large church, you have to be involved in *something*, whether it's choir or the different committees or *something.* That used to also include Sunday school, but many churches (especially seeker-friendly churches, which tend to call them "Bible studies" instead of "Sunday school") no longer have them.

 

 

But not all large churches are bad or unhealthy, and not all small ones are good. I think it just depends on your personal experiences. My worst, most toxic church experiences have been in small churches...so I tend to avoid them like the plague. I don't think there is a right or wrong to church size...it's kind of like choosing a neighborhood. Some people like to be right next to their neighbors, in a large master planned community, and others don't want to see another living soul for miles. I think either option is valid, and just depends on taste and preference.

[JadeOrchidSong]

I just came back from Saturday service in which Pastor John Piper preached in prison. He did use complimentary a few times in his sermon. What I like about his sermon today is that women have the same spiritual discernment as men and they are not weak or vulnerable. Women can be grounded in truth and not be whimpy. Noel Piper is certainly a strong woman.