Doubting ones Faith

[TracyR]

I've from time to time read posts on here where others say they are lingering in their faith . That they don't know what to believe . What gets one to the place that they doubt their faith ?

I know that the thought creeps up from time to time in my head on certain issues but I've always believed in God and always will .

I've sat back and wondered , does one doubt their faith because of too much choice or too much knowledge ?

Really though , where does the doubt come from ? Is it weakness in ones faith ?

Would love to know what other people think on this . Especially thoughts from those that are 'lingering " as well . :confused:

[SusanG]

I was raised Catholic - very devout family - and I attended parochial school through senior year in high school. I began to doubt Catholicism's merit in 10th grade, and I began reading as much as I could get my hands on about my own religion and other world religions. I'm not sure when exactly it happened, but by the end of high school I was no longer a believer in Christianity. I guess you could say it was "too much knowledge" - because after reading about the vast diversity of beliefs both within Christianity and throughout the world, it just didn't make SENSE any more. I considered myself an agnostic for a while after that, thinking there was probably a higher power out there, but I wasn't sure of its nature. During college I tried on paganism and Buddhism for size, and end the end discovered I didn't have enough faith for either. I now call myself an atheist when people ask about my religion. I see the merit of religion from a sociological standpoint, but I don't "believe" the tenets of any of them, so I enjoy learning about them as an outsider, just as I enjoy reading about Greek and Roman myths, or the gods of ancient Egypt. To me, Christianity is just one more collection of myths, no better or worse than any of the others.

[Michelle T]

If you just blindly accept what you were taught your whole life, and never question or decide for yourself if it is "true" or not, then I would call that brainwashing, not faith. True faith requires an examination of self, of belief, of the teachings you hold to. True faith required questioning, examining, and perhaps doubting. True faith means you have done the work, and arrived at YOUR answer, not just blindly accepted someone else's. Once you've done that, you really have faith, your own faith, not just what you were told to believe.

 

There is nothing wrong with doubting, or wondering if your religion is "true" or not. God is big enough to handle it.

Michelle T

[beansprouts]

If you just blindly accept what you were taught your whole life, and never question or decide for yourself if it is "true" or not, then I would call that brainwashing, not faith. True faith requires an examination of self, of belief, of the teachings you hold to. True faith required questioning, examining, and perhaps doubting. True faith means you have done the work, and arrived at YOUR answer, not just blindly accepted someone else's. Once you've done that, you really have faith, your own faith, not just what you were told to believe.

 

There is nothing wrong with doubting, or wondering if your religion is "true" or not. God is big enough to handle it.

Michelle T

 

Absolutely!

 

The Truth will stand up to questioning. I encourage my own children to ask questions and seek out the answers. I want their faith to be their own, and not something they have been spoonfed.

[Night Elf]

I'm a doubter. In fact, I no longer even have a label for myself because frankly I don't know what I believe anymore other than the existence of God, and that belief is only due to the fact that I am downright depressed at the idea that there may not be a God. I suppose in my case, my doubt is fueled by

 

1) too much knowledge - there are so many religions and so many people saying their religion is THE one way. When I was younger, I was a Catholic because I attended Catholic school and learned from them. When I was a teen, I attended a Baptist church with my aunt and was told I was not saved and was going to h*ll. I was told by other people in yet another church that if I didn't interpret the Bible their way, I was lost. Now I'm on the internet where different beliefs are easy to access at any time. I've always felt I needed to find the one way that really resonated within me, but I haven't yet found that one way.

 

2) too much hypocrisy - I see and hear people saying and doing things one day that they denounce as bad or sinning another day. Then I hear that God forgives all whether the sin is big or little because sin doesn't have levels. So people sin and then say it's because they aren't perfect and that it's okay because all they have to do is ask forgiveness and they are back to their perfect state. That's simply too much to wrap my mind around. It just seems a little too convenient. Now, I'm not talking about sins that happen in the spur of a bad decision type moment. I'm talking about things like gambling, murder, rape, lying, stealing, etc. Most of the time those are choices. I can't help but think some people truly believe they can get away with anything because of their religion telling them all they have to do is ask forgiveness. And it also upsets me to hear someone say that something happened to them because the Lord Blessed them. For example, someone not killed in an accident. The family might say they were blessed. But how does that help another family who lost a loved one in an accident? Does that mean it's the opposite, and the Lord didn't bless them, or didn't care? Or, when people say that bad things happen only to bad people as a way of punishment from God. Then those very same people have something happen to them and they claim it's an act of the devil.

 

3. Religion looks and feels like a business. I think I've only met a couple of people who exude spirituality and live accordingly. And one of those people was a pagan.

 

The Bible itself is very difficult to read and understand. So I, like many others, have relied on pastors/clergy to translate it for me. But when different pastors translate different interpretations or focus on different topics, does that mean one person is wrong? Both wrong? I've recently seen a discussion on another board of why a lady allowed her mother to be emotionally abusive to her. She referenced the 'Honor thy Mother and Father' verse. Someone else came in and quoted a verse that said something about the parents not having the right to be emotionally or physically abusive. For a Book of Life/Rules/Laws, there is simply too much to really comprehend and live by, hence the different religions who focus on different priorities. I've come to believe the Bible is not what it's presented to be. I try not to say more than that because I don't wish to offend the people who do believe the Bible.

 

I live a good life. I'm a good person. If some people are right and I haven't followed the proper steps done in the proper order that and that God is going to condemn me to h*ll because of it, then I guess that's what's meant to be. I just can't fathom that God is really like that. And so that sort of makes me rethink what all these religions are saying.

 

And I find it incredibly sad too, because I need spirituality in my life. I'm married to an agnostic who loathes organized religion. He won't even explore with me. So I'm left to my own where I'm influenced by every sally, betty and joan to do this, that, or the other. When I pray, I ask God to talk to ME and not through anyone else. If He really wants me to hear Him, I need Him not an intermediary. I find it too confusing. And if He thinks I'm being uppity and not worth His attention, then that isn't a very endearing aspect of an all-mighty God.

[Aubrey]

I was raised in a very strict, old school Church of Christ, & on top of that, I was a very black & white, dogmatic kind of child. I think it's the denomination, but I know my family to some extent played a role as well, in my *fear* of hell.

 

Growing up, when I had doubts, I did not act on them because I was sure that as soon as I did, I'd be hit by a car & sent to hell. Or, I'd be "out from under God's protection" & end up the victim of a violent crime.

 

When I say fear, I don't mean philosophically. I mean wake up in the night terror. Very real. I did not lie, I did not steal, I didn't do *anything,* kwim? But I did wonder sometimes. I mean, what if I'd been born somewhere else, to someone else, etc. Would I have found the "truth" otherwise?

 

I'd heard testimonies of hard-core sinners (as if there are degrees of sin) who *felt* God pursuing them, who were wooed & won, etc. by God. I wondered if He'd do that for me, too, if it were necessary. Since it wasn't, though, I often felt very little.

 

We switched from CC to non-denom when I was in jr high & my parents divorced, & "talking" to God & "hearing" God are more of a focus in that denom. This is ultimately a good thing, imo, but it can also get weird, iykwim.

 

Anyway, when I was 19, God told me who I was going to marry. I don't know how to put it any less weird than that. It started as a vague feeling & became clearer. That was late Jan of '99. In Feb, dh proposed, although we hadn't discussed this, we hadn't dated, we hadn't even ever been alone in a room together. In June, we were married.

 

That was a marker in my life. From that point on, I *knew* God was real. BUT... we had problems the first yr or two. Just young, newly-wed immature kind of problems, plus a baby sooner than we'd planned. I WAY overreacted to some of it, due to...problems...in my childhood.

 

It got to the pt that I wanted a divorce. I actually called an apt locator & looked up the number for an attorney. Even then, I could not deny that God had put dh & I together, but I began to suspect that it was judgement instead of a blessing, lol, & I was ANGRY that I was trapped: I was led to marry this man, & divorce is wrong.

 

I went round & round on this until finally I realized that even if dh never lived up to any of my expectations, I truly enjoyed his company. My frustration was that I was having to do everything myself (or felt that I was). If I were to be a single parent, that burden would be the same, plus I'd be lonely. And I really realized I didn't want a divorce when I imagined him remarrying.

 

But I didn't get over my anger at God. I didn't know if the Bible was true for sure, if Jesus was his son, if I needed saving, most of all--if he was GOOD. So I finally got up the courage to walk away. I told dh I was leaving the faith & not coming back until I was *sure.*

 

I think it was 2 yrs. I meant to read Plato, Aristotle, etc. & go on a quest for Truth. Ha ha ha. I can tell you there were times that I'd pray out of habit or instinct or something, realize what I'd done, & tell God, "Nevermind. I'm not talking to you." But I could feel him there.

 

What finally convinced me of his goodness? Like I said, I was in this limbo state for about 2 yrs when one morning I woke up, looked over at my sleeping dh, & realized how lucky I was. Sure, he'd had a lot of faults when we married, but he'd worked HARD to overcome them & win me back. He'd stayed w/ me when I left the faith, something I probably would have left him over. He'd become *such* an incredibly wonderful person, so concerned about loving & serving me, that I *knew* I was blessed beyond even my own ability to see it. And I believed that God had seen this in dh when I hadn't, that he had really, truly put us together for my good. (Dh's, too, hopefully.) Mainly, God loved me, & I could trust him. I knelt down beside the bed that morning & gave my heart back to him.

 

From there, I began to one by one go through what I believed, what I'd been taught as a child, to check it. Is the Bible completely true? Is Jesus God's son, was his death necessary?

 

Most of my answers over the yrs have been ones that are unpopular, possibly heretical, & dh suggests I generally don't share them, lol. But my starting point is God's goodness. Of that, I am convinced because of personal concrete experience.

 

Shortly after that time, dh & I were discussing God's judgement, & dh quoted John 3:17. Now, everyone knows J 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son," yada yada yada. The next verse, though, says that he came into the world, not to judge it but to save it.

 

Well, of course he came to judge it. Dh laughed. He had to show me the verse in the Bible, even though I generally know the Bible better than he does. I was floored. (Another tenet of my CC upbringing down.) The more I read & thought about it, the more I saw God's grace throughout the Bible. Romans goes on & on about Jesus' sacrifice being while we were still sinners, sinning. About it being free, etc.

 

Now here's the doozy. About that time, I came to the conclusion that Jesus' sacrifice is actually free. As in, one doesn't have to repent in order to receive it. There are verses that go both ways, & I'm probably wrong, but hear me out. Imagine you owe 1,000,000,000 on your credit card. Your stepdad, whom you hate, pays it for you. Although you could never have paid it on your own, you hate him, & you'd rather stagger under the wt of the debt yourself than accept anything from him, so you call the cc co & demand that they refuse the $.

 

They say, sorry, but $ is $. The debt's paid. There's nothing we can do. Your problem is between you & him.

 

That's it. That's how I see Christianity. You can go through life mad about/not believing what Jesus has done, & that's fine. No judgement. Or you can recognize the free gift, & you have the safe refuge of the Lord's grace. You have his guidance & help available.

 

You know, Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." I think that's the key. We can walk in his kingdom now, or we can wait until it's physically revealed. Otoh, the references to hell *can* (not nec *should*) be read as life here on earth w/out him. Growing up the way I did? The way other children do, which is worse than my exp? Hell. Really. That was part of the source of my anger in the beg. of my marriage. I was in a situation through no fault of my own over which I had no control, & it was awful. This particular reading of scripture helps me to deal w/ that.

 

Does that mean that I think the Bible is relative & can be interpreted as one wishes? No. But the way I see it, if I'm wrong, it doesn't matter, because I've still followed the other steps: repentance, baptism, etc. The difference is, I'm following those out of gratitude & joy now instead of fear. When I tell others about Jesus, I now *refuse* to tell them they're going to hell w/out him. I don't think that's "Good News"--kwim? It just sounds like judgement. And whether hell is a real, separate place or it's here & now, *if* it's real, I think someone living in the middle of it already knows. Kwim?

 

Ok, I've gone on & ON, as usual. So sorry, ladies. I hope I've answered the question & not just gone off on a bunny trail. Actually, y'all are probably lucky the baby's crying now, or I might go on even more. :D Again, sorry.:001_huh:

[Aubrey]

And it also upsets me to hear someone say that something happened to them because the Lord Blessed them. For example, someone not killed in an accident. The family might say they were blessed. But how does that help another family who lost a loved one in an accident? Does that mean it's the opposite, and the Lord didn't bless them, or didn't care? Or, when people say that bad things happen only to bad people as a way of punishment from God. Then those very same people have something happen to them and they claim it's an act of the devil.

 

I know exactly what you mean, & I struggle w/ this, too. Dh's cousin lost her 2yo child when ds7 was 1. I went over & over in my mind how that could be. (Cousin's baby just died in her sleep w/out explanation.) It didn't seem fair, but you hate to be the one shouting that at God when you're holding the living child. Like playing w/ fire or tempting fate or something.

 

I don't have an answer, but I sure don't go around telling people that bad things are God's will or that someone deserved something. I have a strong sense of "there but for the grace of God go I" even when it comes to decision-based outcomes.

 

For ex, I got in less trouble growing up than my sis & bro did. I could claim that I was better behaved, etc. & reaped better benefits, but even if that *is* the case (& like I said in my other post, it was fear-based, so I think that takes some of the potential for pride out of it), WHAT was it that made me make better decisions? Whether it was my conscience or my logic or my lack of opportunity, did *I* provide myself w/ any of those? Of course not.

 

I guess my point is that I try to take very little credit for anything I do right & lots of credit for anything I do wrong so that I don't surprise myself in a bad way too often. Kwim?

[TXMomof4]

I have read none of the other answers, but just wanted to chime in here.

 

My doubt is NEVER about God. My doubt is about my "religion". I love the church I attend, and believe with all of my heart that it is the best place for me and the best way to worship God, FOR ME. There are things that were taught in the past that we are finally getting out from under, but the reality is that those things were man-made things. If you go look for it in the Bible, it would definately fall under the "disputable matters" category. Not salvation issues. My POV has changed significantly in the last 10 years as to what is a salvation issue.

 

I do not doubt God though. God is the constant, the only thing in my life that NEVER changes. Hopefully, these doubts lead me closer to him and further from the man-made image we have of him so many times.

[mommaduck]

Thi

If you just blindly accept what you were taught your whole life, and never question or decide for yourself if it is "true" or not, then I would call that brainwashing, not faith. True faith requires an examination of self, of belief, of the teachings you hold to. True faith required questioning, examining, and perhaps doubting. True faith means you have done the work, and arrived at YOUR answer, not just blindly accepted someone else's. Once you've done that, you really have faith, your own faith, not just what you were told to believe.

 

There is nothing wrong with doubting, or wondering if your religion is "true" or not. God is big enough to handle it.

Michelle T

 

This is what we tell our children. They have search it out for themselves and own it for it to truly be "their faith". You can be culturally something or raised something...but for it to really be YOUR faith, you have to internally believe it...that only comes from working through the questions.

[asta]

I would say, don't confuse faith with religion.

 

Faith is internal. Religion is external.

 

Faith is a relationship. Religion is an organizational structure.

 

Faith may involve a deity, or it may not. If it does, there may be days when it seems like it doesn't. Religion is predicated on common belief in something.

 

Without Faith, Religion is meaningless; without Religion, Faith does just fine.

 

 

(JMO)

 

asta

[percytruffle]

Beth, you sound just like my sister. She could have written that very post. She believes in God but wants no part of organized religion at this point in her life. She bought a special Bible that you read through in two years and at the end of each day's reading there is a meditation. It is not preechy nor overly instructive. It is meant to instill in your day a time to let God speak to you and you to Him. She has been through it twice and really likes it. I know some would say that the Bible itself says to "meet together with others". She does. She talks to me about things all the time and talks to others as well. She is just not at a place right now in her life where she wants or needs an organized setting.

 

I too have had doubts in the past and probably will in the future as well. Too much knowledge. Too many loose ends. Too many varied interpretations. But, I have had experiences of feeling the real presence of God in my life, I have had instances of directly answered prayer, I have felt the emptiness of the hole in my being when I've tried to fill it with things other than God. I know he is there.

[Michelle T]

Beth, you sound just like my sister. She could have written that very post. She believes in God but wants no part of organized religion at this point in her life. She bought a special Bible that you read through in two years and at the end of each day's reading there is a meditation. It is not preechy nor overly instructive. It is meant to instill in your day a time to let God speak to you and you to Him. She has been through it twice and really likes it. I know some would say that the Bible itself says to "meet together with others". She does. She talks to me about things all the time and talks to others as well. She is just not at a place right now in her life where she wants or needs an organized setting.

 

 

Sounds interesting. What bible is this?

Michelle T

[Faithr]

I guess I disagree with asta's last statement. As someone who just went through a Jewish funeral with my non-believing in laws, in spite of their non-belief the rituals and prayers were of great comfort to them. It was beautifully comforting to listen to the Mourner's Kaddish which is how many thousands of years old? Religion even without faith connects you to history and those in a community. I also think that Faith needs some kind of external way to live, otherwise it is in danger of becoming solipsitic navel gazing with no challenges; no responsibility to think through your theories or relationship. I don't think you grow in faith unless there is a path to follow.

 

I was raised Catholic and fell away from the Church for many years. I considered myself atheistic/agnostic (depended on my mood!), then I decided I did believe in something universal so I started searching. I studied Eastern religions, Islam, Judiasm, looked into other Christian interpretations. I got married to a Jewish guy in the UU church, but then I did something really boring, I reverted to the faith of my childhood, because it turns out I really do think it is the fullness of Truth. It was just like falling in love and I haven't fallen out yet, in spite of the Church's many flaws.

[Stacy in NJ]

I was raised a Presbyterian and although I still consider myself a Christian, I don't have a traditional faith in God. Meaning, I don't believe in the bible as the word of God, nor do I believe in the dogma of most Christian demonimations. Basically, I have some belief, some doubt, but I'm okay with that. I've had people tell me that I'm not really a "real" Christian. Pfffff, to them. Judeao/Christian belief has such a long and rich history, I find it philosophically and spiritially very moving. I respect people who have deep faith. I appreciate their lack of doubt, but I'm also a little incredulous about it. Christianity is only one great faith amoung many. I find it a bit strange that anyone would think that they possess the one true truth. Humanity is a great mystery to me.

 

Just some thoughts.

[KarenNC]

I struggled for over 30 years trying to remain some kind of Christian because that was the way I was raised, despite the fact that the core teachings of Christianity had not meshed with my personal experience of spiritual reality since at least the age of 10. My issues were trying to reconcile the two into something that could be called even a very very liberal interpretation of Christianity, but in the end it didn't work. The doubt went away when I was finally able to be open to the reality of what I was seeing and experiencing. It took several years after my final break with Christianity for that to happen fully, however.

[Once]

I will be following this post as it is a topic of interest to me.

 

These things tend to be very personal and I am sure you will find people with various reasons for doubt. I would not fit myslef into your examples. I would not consider myself a person with a weak faith or with too much knowledge or to many choices.

 

I can tell you the reasons I have gone through doubt in my life as a believer and add in an example or two from friends. For me the strongest pull to doubt is the unfairness of life. I struggle with the truth that some are given an easier life to life and some are given a harder life to live. Some examples that I can think of are enough money, beauty, happy marriages, good health, intelligence, living babies, food on the table and safety. I do not see God giving more grace and resources to people that face the opposite of these blessings.

 

My faith is strong and vibrant but I fall into doubt when I see lifes hardships *destroying people*. That emphasis is important because I *can* see those hardships bringing more grace, more love and more of all things good. I do not have a belief that God should only give good things because I know that those bad things God can bring good from. But when I see people destroyed because of what God has allowed in their life I do struggle deeply.

 

Some examples, a little girl molested and turns alcholic. A woman r#ped and can never return to peace. A man that does not make enough money to support his family facing humility each day of his life. A miscarriage for a woman that cannot ever face it again. People that are beautiful inside but treated with disrespect because they do not fit the accepted standard of beauty. I know people that face this *silently* for years. They struggle with their faith and plod on but God does not always offer hope or strength for the journey. I know scripture says it is there for those who ask but they are sometimes just to broken to know that they need to *ask*.

 

These are the things that make me doubt. These are the things that I see cause my friends...past and present...to doubt.

However, I do know that wrestling with God is OK. That he can still bless us while we struggle and that FAITH is believing what is unseen. Whether here or in eternity God *will* bless us for our faith not punish us for our doubt.

 

Amen!

[Stacy in NJ]

I guess I disagree with asta's last statement. As someone who just went through a Jewish funeral with my non-believing in laws, in spite of their non-belief the rituals and prayers were of great comfort to them. It was beautifully comforting to listen to the Mourner's Kaddish which is how many thousands of years old? Religion even without faith connects you to history and those in a community. I also think that Faith needs some kind of external way to live, otherwise it is in danger of becoming solipsitic navel gazing with no challenges; no responsibility to think through your theories or relationship. I don't think you grow in faith unless there is a path to follow.

 

I was raised Catholic and fell away from the Church for many years. I considered myself atheistic/agnostic (depended on my mood!), then I decided I did believe in something universal so I started searching. I studied Eastern religions, Islam, Judiasm, looked into other Christian interpretations. I got married to a Jewish guy in the UU church, but then I did something really boring, I reverted to the faith of my childhood, because it turns out I really do think it is the fullness of Truth. It was just like falling in love and I haven't fallen out yet, in spite of the Church's many flaws.

 

 

What a lovely comment. :001_smile:

[Sarah CB]

I've from time to time read posts on here where others say they are lingering in their faith . That they don't know what to believe . What gets one to the place that they doubt their faith ?

I know that the thought creeps up from time to time in my head on certain issues but I've always believed in God and always will .

I've sat back and wondered , does one doubt their faith because of too much choice or too much knowledge ?

Really though , where does the doubt come from ? Is it weakness in ones faith ?

Would love to know what other people think on this . Especially thoughts from those that are 'lingering " as well . :confused:

 

I really don't think that "too much knowledge" is accurate. I think that sometimes people think that too much knowledge has convinced them away from a faith but underneath I think it had more to do with not enough knowledge. I look at some of the absolutely brilliant people who set out to disprove Christianity - like C.S. Lewis - and then became believers because they couldn't deny what they had learned through their studies.

 

Or St. Augustine. Again, someone very knowledgeable who was not a believer until he began studying it.

 

We had a scientist at church talk to the congregation about how he came to Christ through his studies.

 

I'm sure I could dig up more examples. I became an atheist at age 10. We had received our copies of The New Testament at school that year. My best friend and I read ours and prayed faithfully for about a week. Then we had a "rational" discussion on how religion is just created by people to explain the unexplainable and to ease the fear of death. We thought we were too smart for Christianity.

 

That was a fairly big stumbling block for me on my journey. It still crops up from time to time, but I remind myself that first off I know too little and secondly I can't deny the relationship aspect. I know God is present because I have experienced his love, his grace, and his presence.

[nakitty]

I'm a Unitarian Universalist with agnostic to atheist leanings.... I was baptised Episcopalian as a baby...was born again at age 11 through a traveling ministry that visited the race track (horses) where I spent my weekends (my Mom trained thoroughbred race horses).... but other than that my young religious education was the occasional visit to a friends church or VBS.... my Mom encouraged us to study many different religions to find what we believed to be true...and so I did....and what I found was that all religions had SOMETHING to offer....but they also all contained beliefs that I didn't find to be true in my heart. Then, in my late 20's someone told me about UU...and it was like a religion that was designed just for me! Though, as I get older....I just seem to be having a harder and harder time believing in a higher power whatsoever.... but, like someone else in this thread said....what keeps me from being a full blown atheist is that I find it to darn depressing to think there isn't a God...or an afterlife...

[percytruffle]

Sounds interesting. What bible is this?

Michelle T

 

 

I don't remember, Michelle, but I will e-mail her and find out for you.

[percytruffle]

I really don't think that "too much knowledge" is accurate. I think that sometimes people think that too much knowledge has convinced them away from a faith but underneath I think it had more to do with not enough knowledge. I look at some of the absolutely brilliant people who set out to disprove Christianity - like C.S. Lewis - and then became believers because they couldn't deny what they had learned through their studies.

 

 

Good point. I agree and when I read Mere Christianity as a teen I was convinced by Lewis' logic in believing. I also thoroughly enjoy reading Francis Shaeffer's trilogy: The God Who is There, He is There and He is Not Silent, and Escape From Reason. It just makes such sense.

 

When I stated one of my reasons for wavering at times was too much knowledge, I suppose what I really meant was too much input from experts from too many differing sides trying to convince everyone that their way was the right way. This is where knowledge differs from Truth. They are not the same. Using those definitions I think one can have too much knowledge, but never enough truth.

[Guest Amy in MS]

Hmm,

No, I don't think "too much knowledge" is a problem. I don't think knowing things is dangerous in any way, particularly in the case of religion.

Amy

[HRAAB]

I'm a doubter. In fact, I no longer even have a label for myself because frankly I don't know what I believe anymore other than the existence of God, and that belief is only due to the fact that I am downright depressed at the idea that there may not be a God.

 

I could have written the above. I was raised Catholic and went through a period where I was a devout, orthodox Catholic. Things happened. And finally I allowed that first question to form in mind. Once you ask that first question, the rest follow. This has been a huge struggle for me because the faith was so central to my life. I do have to say that nothing took so much faith in a Supreme Being as asking that first question and deconstructing my faith. If there is a God, I trust in His love. There are times I'm not sure about God, but I'm not willing to let go of it. It's not so much the idea of the Divine that I struggle with but with Christianity.

 

I still attend the Catholic church with my husband (cradle Catholic) and our children. If asked, I say I'm Christian although I've been told I'm far from God's grace. I've learned to smile at these comments most of the time. An agnostic Christian? Anyway, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water yet.

 

It's nice to know I'm not alone because it can certainly feel that way in homeschooling circles when you're the only one questioning Christianity.

 

Janet

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

I have believed in God as long as I can remember, most of what I find myself doubting is what others have told me I need to believe. Hundreds of times I have gone to the Bible to find that it doesn't say what I thought it did or what I was always told it did. There are many passages that I still am struggling with. But through it all I believe in Jesus as God in the flesh and that he came to teach us the way of Love more perfectly. I try to filter the scriptures that I read through the belief that what John says, God=Love, is the absolute truth.

 

What has been on my mind lately is the question, What if I don't want to live forever? For some reason it hasn't appealed to me lately to think that there will be no end. Even though I'm not a proponent of Buddhism, Buddha's teaching on Nirvana, that it is a release, a nothingness, does appeal to me. Is that sacriligeous?

[asta]

I still attend the Catholic church with my husband (cradle Catholic) and our children. If asked, I say I'm Christian although I've been told I'm far from God's grace. I've learned to smile at these comments most of the time. An agnostic Christian?

Janet

 

How dare they.

 

Seriously. This is what ticks me off when I say don't confuse faith with religion; given faith in one's diety, the LAST thing any mortal would have the power over would be the deciding of who was and was not on the receiving end of grace.

 

Even Benedict won't argue that one with me...

 

Grrr.

 

 

asta

[percytruffle]

Here it is, Michelle:

 

The Two Year Daily Reading and Prayer Bible

[Robin Hood]

I doubt the "too much knowledge" idea. Except for college, I also did the whole Catholic 12 year education with the nuns. I didn't buy Catholism by the time I finished but I was grateful for the education. I was an odd duck and the church, the school, nor my parents saw my struggles because I was too quiet and shy and didn't know how to voice things, and then came utter rebellion. But the faith haunted me. I came around again through Christianity, but it wasn't an intelligent faith. I stuck with it and as I began the home school journey, the real test came. Christianity just seemed like the rest of the world religions as I discovered so many other scriptures and founders of faiths that I began to wonder if it all was a myth. I think the Code of Hammurabi being so close to Moses law started the doubts. I couldn't help myself from diving in to find out because the curiosity was so strong. I read all I could get my hands on and said a little prayer, "If you're real God, protect me, cuz I gotta go in and see."

 

The result is that although I am not nearly done and I have so much more to read, I discoverd that Christianity is different from mythology and other systems because it alone does not try to redeem man on his own goodness. Christianity says that man is not good. Other myths and religions say he is or can be made to be. Just as the Bible says that he who has eyes will see, I think that what ever one believes, the author of the belief system will give the eyes to see, also. Atheism's author will give you eyes to see it as true, as will the author of evolution, whoever that is. So, I don't think it's "too much information", but who is the author behind that information.

 

A lot my doubts were also stemmed from the immense corruption of and in the church. As we begin our study into renaissance and exploration, the corruction of man is so evident that there has to be a way of redemption. The questions keep coming and the search for and getting more information isn't keeping me from believing anymore nor is it taking my faith away as I was beginning to fear. A basis or framework around all I read that says there was a beginning and it has been downhill ever since, as man wants the power all to himself, keeps the picture clear. That history keeps repeating itself as a leader takes power and uses a religion or myth to keep it, over and over.

[SusanG]

I discoverd that Christianity is different from mythology and other systems because it alone does not try to redeem man on his own goodness. Christianity says that man is not good. Other myths and religions say he is or can be made to be.

 

 

I'm trying to understand this, but I don't. Are you saying that only Christianity posits that man is not good? And this is what drew you to it? I guess, as an atheist, I see humankind as inherently good, but flawed. I wouldn't want to participate in any religion or philosophy that holds otherwise.

[HRAAB]

When I stated one of my reasons for wavering at times was too much knowledge, I suppose what I really meant was too much input from experts from too many differing sides trying to convince everyone that their way was the right way. This is where knowledge differs from Truth. They are not the same. Using those definitions I think one can have too much knowledge, but never enough truth.

 

Where do you find 'Truth'? Everything you read has come through the filter of another human. If you're Christian, then it would have come through the filter of a fallen human. Even Lewis whom I have great respect for.

 

I suppose some would say the Bible is that only 'Truth', but there has to be great faith in God to accept the Bible as His absolute word; that faith comes first to be able to accept a book as absolute Truth.

 

How do you define knowledge vs. truth.

 

I'm very interested in this discussion.

 

Janet

[Robin Hood]

I'm trying to understand this, but I don't. Are you saying that only Christianity posits that man is not good? And this is what drew you to it? I guess, as an atheist, I see humankind as inherently good, but flawed. I wouldn't want to participate in any religion or philosophy that holds otherwise.

 

I have thoughts on that, but my mental processor is slow and I have to pull those thoughts together. But I'll at least start by saying that man has goodness in him and he was created good. He became corrupted though and passed that corruption on. That "created" part though will probably prevent us from seeing eye to eye and I see no point in arguing. I just disagree that "too much knowledge" takes our faith away.

[HRAAB]

Christianity says that man is not good.

 

Depending on which flavor of Christianity you ascribe to. Not all Christians believe 'man is born bad', but some believe that man is born with the potential to do good or to do bad due to original sin.

 

It is so very hard to discuss Christianity as one religion because there are so many variations.

 

Janet

[mysticamethyst]

I am not even sure I ever had faith. I went to a catholic school till I was in 5th grade, where we went to church once a week. We did religion classes every day but other than stories it never really meant anything to me. At home there was zero religion. My mother was a single mom of the 70's, we never prayed at home, she never went to church, not even on holidays. I feel guilty that my kids don't know really any religion, because I can't seem to pick one. I just tell them to be good to themselves and everything around them and it will all work out in the end. I agree with everything that Beth said, I just cannot put it into words as well. I would love to find a chruch or something where I could feel the warmth of a greater power. How do you go about finding a church? The ones I have been to on a trial run, all wanted money from me; or they were in a strip mall, what is that about. I am a good person who leads a good life, I teach my children to live by the golden rule and to respect all life. Religion just gets so overwhemingly confusing to me it's easier to just put it aside.

[SusanG]

I am not even sure I ever had faith. I went to a catholic school till I was in 5th grade, where we went to church once a week. We did religion classes every day but other than stories it never really meant anything to me. At home there was zero religion. My mother was a single mom of the 70's, we never prayed at home, she never went to church, not even on holidays. I feel guilty that my kids don't know really any religion, because I can't seem to pick one. I just tell them to be good to themselves and everything around them and it will all work out in the end. I agree with everything that Beth said, I just cannot put it into words as well. I would love to find a chruch or something where I could feel the warmth of a greater power. How do you go about finding a church? The ones I have been to on a trial run, all wanted money from me; or they were in a strip mall, what is that about. I am a good person who leads a good life, I teach my children to live by the golden rule and to respect all life. Religion just gets so overwhemingly confusing to me it's easier to just put it aside.

 

Unitarian Universalist might be a good choice for you guys. We went for a few months, and the kids really enjoyed it. The thing about UU churches is that the "flavor" of the church will vary WIDELY depending on the demographic of the members and the beliefs of the pastor. We had two UU Churches here pre-Katrina - one pastor was a total secular humanist, and the other was pagan. As you can imagine, the churches were different as night and day. I went to a UU church in another city and the pastor was Christian, or at least very heavily influenced by Christianity - again, the service was completely different than any I had been to. It might be worth looking into though - and might meet your needs nicely.

[SusanG]

I am not even sure I ever had faith. I went to a catholic school till I was in 5th grade, where we went to church once a week. We did religion classes every day but other than stories it never really meant anything to me. At home there was zero religion. My mother was a single mom of the 70's, we never prayed at home, she never went to church, not even on holidays. I feel guilty that my kids don't know really any religion, because I can't seem to pick one. I just tell them to be good to themselves and everything around them and it will all work out in the end. I agree with everything that Beth said, I just cannot put it into words as well. I would love to find a chruch or something where I could feel the warmth of a greater power. How do you go about finding a church? The ones I have been to on a trial run, all wanted money from me; or they were in a strip mall, what is that about. I am a good person who leads a good life, I teach my children to live by the golden rule and to respect all life. Religion just gets so overwhemingly confusing to me it's easier to just put it aside.

 

Unitarian Universalist might be a good choice for you guys. We went for a few months, and the kids really enjoyed it. The thing about UU churches is that the "flavor" of the church will vary WIDELY depending on the demographic of the members and the beliefs of the pastor. We had two UU Churches here pre-Katrina - one pastor was a total secular humanist, and the other was pagan. As you can imagine, the churches were different as night and day. I went to a UU church in another city and the pastor was Christian, or at least very heavily influenced by Christianity - again, the service was completely different than any I had been to. It might be worth looking into though - and might meet your needs nicely.

[percytruffle]

Where do you find 'Truth'? Everything you read has come through the filter of another human. If you're Christian, then it would have come through the filter of a fallen human. Even Lewis whom I have great respect for.

 

I suppose some would say the Bible is that only 'Truth', but there has to be great faith in God to accept the Bible as His absolute word; that faith comes first to be able to accept a book as absolute Truth.

 

How do you define knowledge vs. truth.

 

I'm very interested in this discussion.

 

Janet

 

Good questions. I like discussing this stuff too, but admit that it is easier to do so in person than trying to write it all out! lol

 

I work with the assumption there is a God. Everyone has assumptions they bring to the faith table. That is mine. I assume that because I'd rather not assume there isn't and also because I have felt His presence in my life numerous times.

 

The God I believe in is innately good and perfect, not necessarily the way the world sees good. We are not perfect (most would agree with this).

 

Knowledge has its basis in human (imperfect) understanding. Truth has its basis in God and his perfection.

 

I equate truth with words spoken by him through the Bible and his son Jesus. The Bible then tells us that the Holy Spirit will help us to discern truth from falsehood. If we stick to the truth that is in the Bible and pray for our understanding of it and don't become sidetracked by the numerous human experts who claim they have it all figured out, then we are seeking truth rather than knowledge.

 

I don't think we can posses pure truth because we are not a perfect people. Which is why humility is vitally important as is a spirit that is open to God's teaching and leading.

 

This is not to say that one shouldn't read or listen to those who have studied the Bible extensively and contemplated its meanings, but it is to say that God will speak to you and open your eyes if you keep searching. We must always hold up what we read or hear against the teachings of God's word and then pray. Not everyone who thinks they have the answers does.

 

I suppose this is why I could never be part of a church that believed their way was the only way or one that was dictatorial in its practices like: you cannot drink wine, women must wear dresses, etc. I have read those passages and I don't agree with their application.

 

One more thought, truth has to do with eternal things, like salvation. Knowledge is and can be vitally important to life (ie medical knowledge), but it has no eternal value to the soul. Knowledge cannot save you, truth can.

 

I also think that truth is simple enough for a child to comprehend, knowledge is much more complicated, sometimes unnecessarily so when it comes to religion.

 

What are your thoughts?

[Mekanamom]

I lost faith in my religion at an early age. Actually, I never really had a chance to develop true faith in it. First of all, the church I was raised in was not very forthcoming about certain aspects of its history. I learned about some uncomfortable historical truths in school. 3rd grade. The spotlight was on me, and my ignorance was extremely uncomfortable. I don't tend to implicitly trust institutions that won't give you the whole story unless you know exactly what to ask for. :glare:

 

I would not say that this was the result of "too much choice or knowledge." I would say it was the result of too little honesty and/or forthrightness on the part of the church.

 

So my suspicions started in 3rd grade. I let it go, gave the religion another good shot. I tried to develop real faith (which I admit I never really had). And then it happened again! Another very uncomfortable historical truth that just completely blindsided me.

 

This truth was completely unreconcilable with the nature of God as I understood it to be (at the time). Every fiber of my being said "this doctrine is wrong." I could not have true faith in some parts of the religion and just dismiss the other parts. And that was that. I simply didn't believe the teachings of this church were divinely inspired. Some parts made sense, and I still appreciate those. But other parts were beyond illogical. I had given it a chance, and learning more about the church did not inspire faith in me... quite the opposite. I left the church at 18, just as soon as my parents couldn't make me attend anymore. LOL- I just don't have it in me to believe something just because someone else (even those I respect greatly) tells me it's true.

 

Then I studied and tried to view religion through the "big picture" lens. I wasn't looking for another church, I just wanted to learn about the nature(s) of religion itself. So many different religions, so many devout people all believing their religion is true. So many different deities. A few religions making room to validate other religions, many religions stating that theirs is the "only one true way".

 

So- I just don't have any complete faith in any one religion. I admire parts of many religions. Absolutely, I agree with the poster who mentioned that "faith" is not the same as "religion". I do admire people who do believe and live out their faith. We've all seen our share of hypocrisy, which, of course, isn't limited to religion. I admire those who live their lives according to their beliefs as long as they're not hurting anyone else in the process. I don't care what the faith is, what I admire is their honesty and genuine approach to life.

 

I agree with Susan about seeing the value of religion(s) in a sociological sense, as well.

 

As for spirituality, I'm agnostic. I'm just really comfortable saying "I don't know". I have no specific expectations of an afterlife, though I don't completely dismiss the possibility in some form... just being alive now is enough to make me happy and feel complete. :001_smile:

[Robin Hood]

I see humankind as inherently good, but flawed. .

 

I gave it some though; I see humankind as having begun perfect, but became corrupt.

[HRAAB]

Good questions. I like discussing this stuff too, but admit that it is easier to do so in person than trying to write it all out! lol

 

I agree. Wish I could invite you over for tea.

 

I work with the assumption there is a God. Everyone has assumptions they bring to the faith table. That is mine. I assume that because I'd rather not assume there isn't and also because I have felt His presence in my life numerous times.

I believe that truth should be evident in the natural world. If there is a God, His truth should be visible or understandable in His creation. And it should be reasonable. Faith and reason should be polar opposites. Of course, with matters of the spiritual nature, in the end it comes down to faith, but it should still be reasonable. That's where I start.

 

I believe and accept a God. Not the God of the Old Testament which I view as anthropomorphic. He had a few too many human qualities for me. When I look at nature and humanity, the good and the bad, the passion, convictions, love, I see that as evidence of something more than just us. Not scientific, but for me it's evidence. Also, I don't want to live in a world where man is it. There has to be more.

 

The God I believe in is innately good and perfect, not necessarily the way the world sees good. We are not perfect (most would agree with this).

 

God implies perfection: all good, all perfect. Yes. I wouldn't believe in a God that wasn't. This is part of the reason I can't accept the Old Testament God. Jealous? No.

 

 

Knowledge has its basis in human (imperfect) understanding. Truth has its basis in God and his perfection.

Okay, but how do we know Truth?

 

I equate truth with words spoken by him through the Bible and his son Jesus. The Bible then tells us that the Holy Spirit will help us to discern truth from falsehood. If we stick to the truth that is in the Bible and pray for our understanding of it and don't become sidetracked by the numerous human experts who claim they have it all figured out, then we are seeking truth rather than knowledge.

But it was human hand that wrote the Bible. I understand that Christians believe the Bible was inspired by God. But many people have been inspired?

I do not believe the Bible is the infallible, inerrant word of God. Yes, I've read and studied and prayed. It has too much human nature wrapped up in it.

 

I don't think we can posses pure truth because we are not a perfect people. Which is why humility is vitally important as is a spirit that is open to God's teaching and leading.

I don't know here. I agree a humble spirit is necessary. I just don't know....

 

This is not to say that one shouldn't read or listen to those who have studied the Bible extensively and contemplated its meanings, but it is to say that God will speak to you and open your eyes if you keep searching. We must always hold up what we read or hear against the teachings of God's word and then pray. Not everyone who thinks they have the answers does.

What I'm reading is that the Bible is your starting point. You accept it's infallibility without question. How do you get from believing in God to accepting the Bible is His actual word? That is a sincere question. Someone, your parents, pastor, told you that? It has to be more I would think. You feel it in your heart? You've seen it's truth in your life? I just can't get there. The Bible has much value to impart, but God's actual words? I cannot take Scripture literally. I can read it, pray, pull out some. But when someone says I have to take it literally - No. And then again different Christians view interpretation of the Bible differently.

 

I

suppose this is why I could never be part of a church that believed their way was the only way or one that was dictatorial in its practices like: you cannot drink wine, women must wear dresses, etc. I have read those passages and I don't agree with their application.

 

But doesn't Christianity say "We have the whole truth. Our way is the only way."? So while you don't believe any individual Christian church can say their way is the only way, you do believe Christianity is the only way?

 

And as you point out, so many Christians read so much into the Bible. Women must wear dresses and shouldn't cut their hair; you shouldn't drink alcohol, women must be totally submissive to their husbands, etc. My sil went to the Bible to see if it was permissible for her daughter to smoke when she smelled smoke in her car. She also decided tattoos were okay because she couldn't find anything in Scripture that said otherwise. I have friends who can spend all evening arguing over the finer points of Scripture without ever coming to any agreement. All good Christians, all with an open heart to the leading of the Holy Spirit - or it would appear. Frankly, they drive me insane. After the conversation about smoking, I told my daughters I didn't have to go to the Bible to tell them it was bad for their health and not to do it. How about the arguments on whether there were dinosaurs on the ark? The Holy Spirit will guide you if you open your heart and pray? To what conclusion? For this reason the Bible, for me, is not answer to everything.

 

Of course, those are small matters, and they would all agree that Jesus is the Son of God, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, and that He died to save them. Maybe that's all that matters and the rest is inconsequential?

 

One more thought, truth has to do with eternal things, like salvation. Knowledge is and can be vitally important to life (ie medical knowledge), but it has no eternal value to the soul. Knowledge cannot save you, truth can.

 

I also think that truth is simple enough for a child to comprehend, knowledge is much more complicated, sometimes unnecessarily so when it comes to religion.

But again, how do you know what is truth. The Bible?

 

What are your thoughts?

I'm probably too much in the middle of thinking through all this to say 'this is what I believe' other than saying I believe in God, but I'm even working on what is God. Good, perfect, love. And being human, I'm never going to be able to understand that which is God so I've settled for that description. That's about as far as I've got.

 

Thank you for your reply. I always gain something from reading what others believe and will probably ponder much of this.

 

Janet

[percytruffle]

Janet,

 

Let's do tea! What kind would you like? Chamomile, green, black,...

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I believe that truth should be evident in the natural world. If there is a God, His truth should be visible or understandable in His creation. And it should be reasonable. Faith and reason should be polar opposites. Of course, with matters of the spiritual nature, in the end it comes down to faith, but it should still be reasonable. That's where I start."

I believe that too and the Bible tells us that we can know God by knowing his creation, but is the creation exactly as he meant it to be or is it as Christians believe: a fallen and now imperfect world. Imperfect to me means death and decay, an end to the good that is here and now.

 

"I believe and accept a God. Not the God of the Old Testament which I view as anthropomorphic. He had a few too many human qualities for me. When I look at nature and humanity, the good and the bad, the passion, convictions, love, I see that as evidence of something more than just us. Not scientific, but for me it's evidence. Also, I don't want to live in a world where man is it. There has to be more."

 

Sure, because there is an ultimate right and wrong, and ultimate good and bad, that seems to point to an ultimate being. Have you considered that perhaps the God of the old Testament was presented as he was to the people who lived then because that was who and what they could understand in their present reality? If we can never fully comprehend an ultimate being within our finite capacity to understand, wouldn't it make sense for him to present himself to us in a way we could relate to? Just something to think about.

 

 

"God implies perfection: all good, all perfect. Yes. I wouldn't believe in a God that wasn't. This is part of the reason I can't accept the Old Testament God. Jealous? No."

 

Again, perhaps our ability for understanding is what hindered our view of God.

 

 

"Okay, but how do we know Truth?"

 

It stands up to the test of time, it is eternal. It stands up under scrutiny. Even my dog knows when he has done something wrong. He comprehends truth as it relates to his life and his ability to understand. We begin within ourselves, our conscience as it were, our inner voice. Unless of course we are mentaly ill! In which case there may be many "inner voices".

 

 

"But it was human hand that wrote the Bible. I understand that Christians believe the Bible was inspired by God. But many people have been inspired?

I do not believe the Bible is the infallible, inerrant word of God. Yes, I've read and studied and prayed. It has too much human nature wrapped up in it. "

 

I admit it is a stumbling block for many, including myself at times. But, it seems that more and more of the truths of the Bible are being proven all the time. Lost cities are found that prove the history of the Bible is acurate, etc. Even things as simple as Ezekial 4:9 where God tells him to put together certain grains to eat while he fasts. They make a complete protein. Who would have known that back then? I was reading a science article online not too long ago that was addressing healing power and how there really appears to be something physical that actually takes place, biological, electrical, chemical, through prayer for the sick. Real evidence that what the Bible tells us to do really works, not just in our minds, but in reality. And no it wasn't an article in some Christian publication. I don't read those. They are more biased than the anti-Christian publications!

 

 

"I don't know here. I agree a humble spirit is necessary. I just don't know...."

 

If you agree that there is a God and we are not him, then we are not infinite. Who better to teach us than he who is?

 

"What I'm reading is that the Bible is your starting point. You accept it's infallibility without question. How do you get from believing in God to accepting the Bible is His actual word? That is a sincere question. Someone, your parents, pastor, told you that? It has to be more I would think. You feel it in your heart? You've seen it's truth in your life? I just can't get there. The Bible has much value to impart, but God's actual words? I cannot take Scripture literally. I can read it, pray, pull out some. But when someone says I have to take it literally - No. And then again different Christians view interpretation of the Bible differently."

 

I don't take scripture literally either, but I do believe they are his words and he inspired the writers. There is a difference between taking every word literally and believing it to be true. I believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth in six days. Do I believe it was in six Earth days? No. He says elsewhere that his days are not like our days.

 

Yes, I feel it in my heart, Yes, I've seen its truths played out in my life. I don't believe it because someone said I should, i have ownership of my faith. I have made the choice to believe because of what is inside me and what I have witnessed of the world and how it meshes with God's words.

 

"But doesn't Christianity say "We have the whole truth. Our way is the only way."? So while you don't believe any individual Christian church can say their way is the only way, you do believe Christianity is the only way?"

 

We have the whole truth in that God created us as perfect, we, as a race, sinned and were separated from him, he made a way, Jesus, for us to return to him and once again have a relationship and a way to be with him after we pass form this Earth. Everything else is superfluous. That is the good news, the truth, the whole truth. simple enough for a child to understand and yet profound enough to save humanity.

 

He says Jesus is the only way. Do I know what happens after we leave this Earth? No. In the OT some had visions in which they saw those saints who had gone on before as apparitions. If they had passed out of God's presense they would not have been there, yet they lived and died before Jesus. We just don't know what he has in store for those who have not heard or those of other faiths. I do know it is up to us to share our saving faith with those who do not have it, but I cannot comprehend a God who is satisfied with that and washes his hands of the rest. In my heart I have to think that he has made some provision after death for them to come to the truth and believe. I'm sure many Christians here would disagree with me about that, but that is what I believe.

 

 

"And as you point out, so many Christians read so much into the Bible. Women must wear dresses and shouldn't cut their hair; you shouldn't drink alcohol, women must be totally submissive to their husbands, etc. My sil went to the Bible to see if it was permissible for her daughter to smoke when she smelled smoke in her car. She also decided tattoos were okay because she couldn't find anything in Scripture that said otherwise. I have friends who can spend all evening arguing over the finer points of Scripture without ever coming to any agreement. All good Christians, all with an open heart to the leading of the Holy Spirit - or it would appear. Frankly, they drive me insane. After the conversation about smoking, I told my daughters I didn't have to go to the Bible to tell them it was bad for their health and not to do it. How about the arguments on whether there were dinosaurs on the ark? The Holy Spirit will guide you if you open your heart and pray? To what conclusion? For this reason the Bible, for me, is not answer to everything."

 

It is not the answer to all things to me either. I don't think God is in the business of micro-managing our lives through the Bible. I'm more of a big picture believer myself.

 

"Of course, those are small matters, and they would all agree that Jesus is the Son of God, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, and that He died to save them. Maybe that's all that matters and the rest is inconsequential?"

 

Bingo

 

 

Thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed hearing your thoughts. If you ever want to chat more feel free to pm or e-mail me. I would never force my ideas upon anyone, so know I am open to discuss. :)

[sheryl]

Amen to Tracy...original post. Sheryl <><

[PineFarmMom]

I've from time to time read posts on here where others say they are lingering in their faith . That they don't know what to believe . What gets one to the place that they doubt their faith ?

I know that the thought creeps up from time to time in my head on certain issues but I've always believed in God and always will .

I've sat back and wondered , does one doubt their faith because of too much choice or too much knowledge ?

Really though , where does the doubt come from ? Is it weakness in ones faith ?

Would love to know what other people think on this . Especially thoughts from those that are 'lingering " as well . :confused:

 

I've ridden the roller-coaster before. I think, at times, reading things here (quite a while back) have caused me to doubt my faith. When I have read opinions by atheists and scientists, I have doubted my faith. When I have seen things on tv, read books, seen documentaries, I have doubted my faith.

 

It's finally gotten to a point that I am just not shaken, no matter how good the argument. Words are just that "words" when they contradict who Christ has proven Himself to be. In my mind, because He has so powerfully (and I do mean POWERFULLY) proven Himself to me, then everything that contradicts Him is untrue, no matter how well-meaning the deliverer is. :)

 

T

[Doran]

I've read through much, but not all, of this thread and as is often the case in matters as personal as faith, I am ever-impressed by the honesty and knowledge expressed by those who respond. It takes some level of sheer bravery, in my opinion, to expose ourselves in discussions like these because the topic is so sensitive to so many. So, I want to applaud you and everyone for simply showing up - for stating what it is that's on your minds, and for trying to find words to express what you believe.

 

I wrote a reply to another board member on the old boards -- I'm not sure she still participates here -- which I saved and retrieved just now. While it may seem odd that I saved it at all, I'll offer two explanations. First, I'm a writer (at the time, I wasn't calling myself that, but I was working up to it :)), so I try to hang onto things that required some brain power on my part. So, that leads me to the second reason: I had to think a lot before I got all of this down. I find it therapeutic, on some level, to have to write my thoughts, and once I've done so, it often helps me to reread (more than once) what's gone into the keyboard. So, that said, I find that much of what I wrote then is appropriate here. I hope you'll forgive me for "reprinting" it, with a few changes to accommodate this thread.

 

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I appreciate your questions and your desire to seek answers. My experiences with the broad definition of those who are Christians, and my exposure to other people of different organized religions, have taught me that those who are willing to ask the questions and *look* for the answers are often on a path toward greater wisdom than are those who feel that they must keep only to what they know. Yes, its easier to work within the realms in which we are comfortable, and to not ask the tough questions, but in my opinion, failure to question leaves us stagnant. When we are stagnant, we no longer grow. So, good for you for asking!

 

My experiences with Christianity and, with many (not all) Christians, have brought me now to a spiritual place that I feel is right for me. Without those experiences, I would not be who I am today. Some experiences were horrid. Some were nothing short of divine. My spiritual journey led me down a narrow Christian path for a long time. Not unlike others here, I knew about little else. I followed what my parents presented, what the church of my childhood taught. Still, I found myself constantly vacillating between trying to be firm in my faith and being perpetually perplexed. Tucked into my Christianity, I felt a bit safer; my world was definable and the goals before me (to be a better believer, to be less of a sinner) were clear. But, in time, I began to question that everything I needed to know was to be found in the Bible and within the confines of the Christian faith. Looking outward, the questions multiplied. It didn't make sense to me that this church had The Answer. It didn't make sense to me that my God had the only solution to salvation. How could that be? How could it be that one God was able to supercede all the other gods of all the other religions down through the ages? How could I discount 2/3 of the worlds' populations, and the religions that existed long before the birth of Jesus and believe that this one was The One. I began to realize that I was comfortable with many of the ideals and the life principles set forth in Christianity, but that I wasn't comfortable with the premise that Christianity was the only truth. I needed to embrace all people of all faiths and all cultures. I needed to not put a label on my spirituality. I needed to be able to see as sacred a celebration of Solstice as much as a celebration of Christmas, as much the homosexual as the heterosexual. Some would say that I watered down my faith and that I lost sight of the truth by allowing doubt to creep in. I feel the opposite! I feel that I FOUND my faith, or my true spirituality, by allowing myself to embrace rather than exclude.

 

The world is full of people who do not do justice to the tenets of their religion. Christianity is no different, it just gets more coverage (particularly in the US). When I think of the great spiritual leaders, I find that they all have in common certain attributes, among them a passion for love, and a ton of humility. They speak their truths, they lead by example, and they recognize their own shortcomings without using them as excuses for bad behavior.

 

I find no fault with the god of any religion. People are fallible but love is divine. I believe that divinity reveals itself to people in different ways and that it is not "our job" to open the hearts of our neighbors (though at one time I felt very strongly that one of my roles on this planet was to go about trying to convert others to Christianity). We can only make our hearts available. First, available to that which is divine, if we choose to believe that, and second, to those among whom we live - friends and strangers in our midst. We attract that which is our primary focus. My goal is to focus on what we share in common, not what makes us different. We all want happiness. We all want respect. We all want to know that we are loved. I'd like to bring these "wants" into the lives of people around me. I'd like for those around me to do the same. Do unto others.

 

Thank you for thinking, and for seeking.

 

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So, again for this moment, Tracy, thank you for posing your question. I respect you greatly for doing so and I hope this helps answer them in some way.

[Rosie_0801]

What gets one to the place that they doubt their faith ? I know that the thought creeps up from time to time in my head on certain issues but I've always believed in God and always will .

I've sat back and wondered , does one doubt their faith because of too much choice or too much knowledge ?

Really though , where does the doubt come from ? Is it weakness in ones faith ? Would love to know what other people think on this . Especially thoughts from those that are 'lingering " as well . :confused:

 

First, losing one's faith doesn't mean one is necessarily losing their faith in God. It can mean losing faith in one's particular brand of religion, or church's teachings. Or finding an interpretation of God that works better for you.

I met my hubby near the end of his faith crisis. He said it was triggered by reading Spong's works. It got him thinking, and he found too many inconsistancies to be able to continue with the same set of beliefs. A friend's wife questioned him one it once, and told him he shouldn't have read that stuff. For her, faith was more important than truth, for dh, truth was more important than faith. Before anyone jumps up and down at me, by "truth" I mean one's personal truth. For some people, their personal truth and the religion they were brought up with are the same thing. For others they aren't, or stop being due to some other influence. So, for friend's wife, keeping that particular faith was so important, she wouldn't do anything that might damage it. For dh, a faith in something that he no longer believed wasn't right. His beliefs had changed, so his faith had to also. Friend's wife sees dh's actions as weak, I see hers as weak. In my opinion, if you have to be that careful to avoid anything that might damage your faith, then you don't have a very strong faith. But then I am more interested in people following the path that works for them at this point of their life, and don't think there is only one right path. Maybe I would see it differently if I had been brought up in a Christian culture.

Different strokes for different folks...

:)

Rosie

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I've actually been reading a book about this very topic: The Critical Journey, Stages in the Life of Faith, Second Edition, by Janet O. Hagberg and Bob Guelich. I'll try to give a quick synopsis here, but I can't fully explain it in this short space.

 

It is quite natural, in the faith journey, if you're moving forward in your faith, to come to a time when your faith doesn't look anything like it did in the past, when your old creeds and tenets don't hold true for you anymore, when you start questioning everything. It's a lonely time because you turn inside yourself, and you don't fit the mold you once did.

 

There are six stages of faith, and they're the same no matter what faith you are living (Christian or not). Each stage brings you closer to God, and each stage allows God to be bigger than before. You can return to earlier stages many times, and you can dwell in more than one stage at a time, so it's not a linear path. But, you can't skip stages.

 

The first stage (Recognition of God) occurs when you "meet" God for the first time. It's full of awe and gratitude. The second stage (Life of Discipleship) involves getting involved in a faith community, and becoming a disciple, figuratively sitting at the feet of your mentors, learning the beliefs of your faith, and learning to live the life of a believer. Stage Three is called The Productive Life. At this stage, you give back to your faith community and to others. You work in ministry and are active as a leader/teacher/participant. You are happy in this stage because you are helping others to find and know the answers; you are receiving recognition for your efforts. You are happy because YOU know the answers. Most churches are geared for people in these first three stages.

 

Stage four, though, is different. It's called "The Journey Inward". It is a lonely stage because you go it alone. To those in the first three stages, it seems like you're a backslider. The answers you used to know without a doubt are no longer satisfactory. You start questioning the very basics. You are no longer drawn to the community you once needed. This stage is sometimes triggered by a personal crisis, or a faith crisis (something that caused you to start questioning). It brings you face to face with what the authors call "The Wall".

 

At The Wall, you meet your demons: those hurts and issues that keep you from allowing God to fully direct your life. It is the place where your will meets God's will, and you decide whether you are ready to surrender. There is no way to get to the other side of The Wall other than going through it. From the book, this involves "relinquishing our egos, or wounds, and all else that stands between us and God. . . It is the place where we heal spiritually and emotionally. . . It doesn't feel like it, but God is intimitely involved in the invitation, facilitation, enabling, honoring, and rewarding of all our our activities in the Wall."

 

The stages on the other side of the Wall look a lot like the first three stages from the outside, but they're beautifully different. Stage Five is called "The Journey Outward". It looks like the Productive Life, but because you are fully surrendered to God, your service is no longer sacrificial. There is no burn-out because you are completely empowered by God. You truly serve out of love, and God's will is your will. You are given a sense of calling. Your main concern and focus is on others' best interests. You carry a deep calm, a stillness, that is evident to those you meet.

 

Stage Six sort of merges with Stage Five. It's called "The Life of Love". You truly walk with God. You are detached from the stresses and things of this world. You are wise from life's struggles. You abandon your life in favor of living for others. "Your work and your ministry at this stage is love; your ministry of love heals people; and healed people heal others. You live out wisdom, which is seeing with the eyes of God, hearing with the ears of God, and feeling with the heart of God. You have embraced your inner wounds and continue to walk in a healing path. You experience intimacy with God and interior freedom. As a result you are able to identify with the inner wounds of others, experience chaos with a Christ-like manner, and allow yourself to be guided by intuition and illumination from God's Holy Spirit. . . You live as Jesus lived."

 

I highly recommend the book. It is used as a textbook at Fuller Theological Seminary for a class called "The Spritual Journey". You can get it from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Critical-Journey-Stages-Faith-Second/dp/1879215497/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215783984&sr=8-1

[Once]

Suzanne, that is a beautiful post. I see alot of wisdom in your words and I can see the truth of them in my own life. I wonder if the author discusses the posibility of people going to the wall several times in their life or if it happens only once.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

She does. Most people approach the wall several times, and resist it in a number of ways before moving into it. She mentions that she's been in and out of the wall several times in her journey. She also uses an analogy of a stone wall, and says that many times, we enter the wall, remove a few stones, and come back out, returning to previous home-stages for comfort, or just staying in the fourth stage (in the darkness). Then, we go back in and remove more stones, one at a time. It takes many times into the wall, removing one painful stone after another, and can take years to come through the other side.

 

Of course, she (they) say it much more eloquently than I can. And, they go into much more detail in the book. I hope you can get a copy.

[Catherine]

I was raised in a church that discouraged questioning, and patronized me when I asked questions, then, implied my questioning was evidence of my lack of faith. The response to my questions was the first time I felt doubt. I had such a real faith before that, and it's never come back. Even as a child, I felt deeply betrayed.

 

As an adult, my own experience is that the only devout Christians I personally know are not very loving or nice people. They can quote scripture on every imaginable topic, and attend church and mission trips faithfully, but can't find time or love for their own family.

 

I wonder why, if God is real, why do the people who claim to be so close to him behave so coldly and heartlessly toward their loved one who has told them he is gay? This is a situation in my own family. The hypocrisy of so many Christians when it comes to treating people like him, who I think Jesus would love, makes me doubt christianity.

[Colleen]

Some friends of mine are doing an online Bible Book Club using The Two Year Daily Reading & Prayer Bible. When you mentioned your sister's Bible, I thought it was probably this one.:)

[bairnmama]

I just read through this whole thread and have been pondering what I should post. I don't think I have ever questioned, or doubted my "faith" - that is the basic tenents of what I believe, but I have wondered if I had fully surrendered my life or was just putting on a show for the world to see how "good" I was. I do think getting together with fellow believers is important, but there were several years where I did not because I could not find a church that I was comfortable attending. The leaders either claimed things I had deemed personally to be not supported by scriptures by my own studies, or their delivery style was harsh and threatening. I don't see how people can go week after week being yelled at by their supposedly loving pastor... it's simply beyond me. I spent many years reading different translations, had friends who were of greatly different beliefs (Wiccan, Orthodox Jew, Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, etc), and had many discussions in college on this very subject. Through all this I cemented my own belief and would like to share it here.... if you don't wish to know it, please feel free to stop reading at this point.

 

-I believe the Bible is the infalliable Word of God in it's original text - but that one has to be careful of translations because each one focuses on a particular meaning of certain words or phrases that have several different meanings. Always try to go back to the original if possible and also study the context of the verse... what was the politcal climate at the time, who was the audience, what is the background of the author, what were the cultural practices at the time, etc.

-I believe that Jesus is the son of God, fully man yet fully God, in existence from the beginning and the only path to redemption from God's judgement (since no human is perfect, only Jesus could pay the "price" for our failings and we just need to accept the gift offered). If we refuse the gift, we pay the price with eternal separation from God's love and mercy.

-I believe the world and man was created perfect, but once sin entered through the disobediance of Adam & Eve all life became a struggle. God does not cause evil to happen, He allows it because He has given us the ability to choose. He has a perfect plan, but allows us to stray and will bring everything that happens towards good for those who love Him (whether in this life or the next we may never know).

-I believe we will never be able to understand God fully. This is why questioning, even when I am not completely satisfied with the answers I find, does not shatter my faith. His ways are not our ways. I love how the apostle Paul puts it, "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:12 (Again about the context of the verse, most mirrors in Paul's day were burnished metal and the reflection was very wavy and distorted.)

-I believe we should love all others as God loves them. This means not thinking I am better, not sequestering myself to only the company of those who believe like me. But it also does not mean I agree with them on their beliefs and actions. Just as you can disagree with a friend on good books and methods of child discipline or teaching, so can you love and be kind and compassionate to a person without giving acceptance to their lifestyle or belief/nonbelief in deities.

- I believe that being sincere in whatever is "personally true for you" is not enough. Many people in history sincerely believed in spontaneous generation, the flatness of the world, the sun revolving around the earth, etc. and they were sincerely wrong.

 

I strive to become more like Christ every day, but it is a long journey and I often completely screw things up. Christians are just like the rest of the world in that they get mad, have knee-jerk reactions, misunderstand things, speak before thinking, and such, but what is supposed to set us apart is that we are forgiven and trying to live according to scripture. It is not a license to live like there are no consequences just because you've got that "life-insurance policy" of forgiveness. It's about a relationship with your creator.

 

If you would like to discuss further, please email me. I love these kinds of conversations.

[Leighton Academy]

This is timely in that hubby and I have been having relevant discussions in the past couple of weeks. Recently my dh has been resistant to anything remotely to do with "religion". He has traveled a bit in the past decade and he is astonished at the overwhelming pain and death that is wrought in the name of God and religion. For him, it's also being told that you can't do this and you have to do that in order to be a "good" Christian. He is turned off by people who should be leading others to God; but instead they are looking down their noses and passing judgements. These people are not representative of the God that I know but I can't seem to convince dh.

I can't remember a time when I didn't attend church as a child. I have attended a Church of God, several Assemblies of God and more than a few non-denominational churches. As you can tell, we've moved around a bit.

Throughout all of this, I have not doubted God. However, I question the way others cram "religion" down my throat. I have finally come to the point where I am comfortable with my relationship with God. I may not worship in a way that gains approval from most but I have a strong connection with God.

I had a fear-based relationship with God as a child and I am determined not to give that to my children.