Is this child lazy, broken by PS, or is this just "the way she is"?

[delaney]

My oldest DD is giving me fits. I had inquired a while ago about unschooling her b/c I felt she was ruined by 5 years of PS. I fear the tests we have to give at the end of the year though. :confused:

Here is an example of what I get.

I gave her a task of doing a tri-fold brochure on reptiles using 2 books. I said to add some interesting facts that she was interested in and to add pics from the computer.

Total fail. She had no clue where to start and whined. I had her 8 year old sister(who writes books for fun) jump in and she ended up doing most of the work.

She likes workbooks and fill in the blanks. She likes to be told EVERY MINUTE what to do next. I need her to be more independent as the younger kids get older and need more of my time!!!

So here are my questions:

1. Did PS do this to her?

2. Is this just the way she is wired and I should give up and give her text books?

3.Should I unschool and stress about giving the CAT? or is there a way to get her what she needs and still unschool?

(she did poorly on the language parts last year in particular)

[Snickerdoodle]

Public school did not do this to her. It sounds like this kind of project is not well suited to her.

 

Have you listened to SWB's lectures regarding writing, homeschooling and working towards independence? (Well worth the money to my mind.) An approach to writing that is more systematic would likely suit her better than a creative, open ended project.

[MrsMe]

Well, ps tend to give smaller parameters. Try it again in a bit and ask her to find certain answers to questions, in addition, find one thing she found interesting and copy it, then draw a picture (or find and paste) to illustrate what she found interesting.

 

I think could be that the assignment was way too open-ended for her at this time.

[Snickerdoodle]

I do know what I would get and it wouldn't be pretty. :001_huh:

[fiddle]

This is our 1st year homeschooling and my oldest dd is in 6th grade. The first few months of homeschooling were a tough transition. She needs to be more independent so my husband (he homeschools) can work more one-on-one with my youngest dd who has LDs. I found that coming out of ps my oldest hard a hard time working on her own.

 

In public school they really are told every half hour what they are supposed to be doing. My dd had trouble with a more free-flowing homeschool, so I began to write out lists for her. In ps, they would have a little calendar to write down their homework for the night. We used that to give her instructions on what to do.

 

Also, my dd was woefully unprepared for actual writing- i.e. writing reports, summarizing, etc. So, we're using middle school to play catch up in all these areas.

 

I have found that my dd *is* becoming a bit more independent now, after several months at home. But when it comes to writing and doing reports, maybe you need to model some for her? I know in IEW their philosophy is as far as writing goes you can't model too much;)

 

If your dd is just not wanting to assignments in all areas, well you might need to play disciplinarian. But I think your intuition will give you a read on that.:)

Paula

[MerryAtHope]

Some kids learn things implicitly. They like discovery-oriented methods and being set loose to just explore and learn. Many times they will feel smothered or "hovered over" by methods that try to tell them what to do every step of the way.

 

Other students learn explicitly. They like to be shown step by step what to do. Discovery-oriented methods leave them feeling set up to fail.

 

For an explicit learner to do the type of project you describe, you would need to first teach them, step by step, how to do a research project. After they had done a few of those, then you would have to walk them through the process to develop a brochure or display, which adds on another whole dimmension to this idea.

 

It sounds to me like you have one discovery-oriented learner (your 8 yo) and one explicit learner who will shut down with methods that don't set her up to succeed.

 

That doesn't mean you can never have her do something creative, but it DOES mean that she will need a program that guides her each step of the way until she feels confident in the process, as well as patient, incremental instruction from you.

 

Now, you CAN help her to be more independent. In addition to finding programs that teach explicitly, with more incremental methods, try using Workboxes.

 

Every child is different! Encourage her in her strengths, and don't expect her to be just like her sister. It's hard to be outshined by a younger sibling.

 

HTH some! Merry :-)

[PeterPan]

There wasn't enough structure to the assignment, so she was overwhelmed and couldn't even start. Some kids need more structure than others. Sometimes it's a reflection of an underlying problem (ADHD, whatever). This is the age where it's time to ask if this is an occasional problem or one of those things that has been going on a lot for years and years, one of those things you thought she'd outgrow that she didn't. My personal rule of thumb is that when a mom is SO frustrated that she comes on a public forum and starts telling total strangers how problematic something is, it's time to get evals. ;)

 

A certain amount is normal to the age. Yes personality can be different. Your next dc might just be a writer. Does your older dd have a daily checklist so she KNOWS what's coming next?? Have you taught her to use the checklist? That's the only way for her to become independent. If she likes workbooks, are you giving her materials that use that format?? People act like there's some crime in workbooks, but mercy they're a good tool. There are lots of great curricula available for the workbooky dc who enjoys that kind of structure and predictability. GIVE IN to that and don't feel like it's compromising. I wish my dd would do more workbooks. It's like pulling teeth with her. I've picked a couple good ones out for next year (the spelling and grammar workbooks Excellence in Lit sells), but I'd love to be able to use more.

 

No, don't unschool her. If she already needs help to know what to do next, unschooling won't make that better. She has shown you her wiring needs structure and predictability. She needs help to know what to do next and predictable patterns (workbooks). That's what you should give her. Sometimes we get sucked into so much customization on the boards that it's really hard for the kids just to know what to DO. My kid gives me the same kinds of looks, so I have to look at my stuff and figure out if I've got it checklisted well, if I've created a structure so it's obvious what to do next and exactly what is expected. For instance right now I have her scrapbooking through the states. She reads books about a state and is to make a 2-page spread in her scrapbook. Well that is SO open-ended, like your tri-fold, that she was wigging out. I had to sit with her the first several days and make out checklists of EXACTLY what was expected. NOW she can do it on her own, now that she's been through the drill and knows the expectations and has them written exactly out.

 

You'll figure it out. Gotta go. Keep working on it. :)

[delaney]

There wasn't enough structure to the assignment, so she was overwhelmed and couldn't even start. Some kids need more structure than others. Sometimes it's a reflection of an underlying problem (ADHD, whatever). This is the age where it's time to ask if this is an occasional problem or one of those things that has been going on a lot for years and years, one of those things you thought she'd outgrow that she didn't. My personal rule of thumb is that when a mom is SO frustrated that she comes on a public forum and starts telling total strangers how problematic something is, it's time to get evals. ;)

 

A certain amount is normal to the age. Yes personality can be different. Your next dc might just be a writer. Does your older dd have a daily checklist so she KNOWS what's coming next?? Have you taught her to use the checklist? That's the only way for her to become independent. If she likes workbooks, are you giving her materials that use that format?? People act like there's some crime in workbooks, but mercy they're a good tool. There are lots of great curricula available for the workbooky dc who enjoys that kind of structure and predictability. GIVE IN to that and don't feel like it's compromising. I wish my dd would do more workbooks. It's like pulling teeth with her. I've picked a couple good ones out for next year (the spelling and grammar workbooks Excellence in Lit sells), but I'd love to be able to use more.

 

No, don't unschool her. If she already needs help to know what to do next, unschooling won't make that better. She has shown you her wiring needs structure and predictability. She needs help to know what to do next and predictable patterns (workbooks). That's what you should give her. Sometimes we get sucked into so much customization on the boards that it's really hard for the kids just to know what to DO. My kid gives me the same kinds of looks, so I have to look at my stuff and figure out if I've got it checklisted well, if I've created a structure so it's obvious what to do next and exactly what is expected. For instance right now I have her scrapbooking through the states. She reads books about a state and is to make a 2-page spread in her scrapbook. Well that is SO open-ended, like your tri-fold, that she was wigging out. I had to sit with her the first several days and make out checklists of EXACTLY what was expected. NOW she can do it on her own, now that she's been through the drill and knows the expectations and has them written exactly out.

 

You'll figure it out. Gotta go. Keep working on it. :)

Sigh....you're right of course about the workbooks. What do I turn to for workbooks? I guess using some of the graphic organizers and scholastic books suggested in my other post may be a place to start. Oddly, for history she LOVES the year 4 history from Abeka. It is below her level but it has multiple choice, fill in the blanks, and short answer. All the stuff that she is comfortable with. I signed up for VP modern for next year so now what can I/do I need to supplement her work there that would be textbooky?? Or do I even need something??:confused:

[ssavings]

Maybe it's just her personality/learning style, rather than a "problem" to be "fixed".

 

I, personally, am very linear. While I can be artsy/creative, it's not enjoyable for me. I do well with a daily "list" of what I need to accomplish. I loved textbooks and workbooks all through school, and (loudly) resist my mom's attempts to change that (she wanted more project-based, chase-a-rabbit-trail type learning, which I'm simply not inclined to do). I'm a planner, and I really enjoy that.

 

I know this is against the norm here, but if she is asking you to give her workbooks and structure, I'd do it. Obviously, find challenging and engaging texts, ones that are appropriate for her academically. If you want her to develop a more artistic/creative side, add in an art curriculum - something with clear guidelines that she can follow. Maybe critical thinking workbooks (critical thinking co or prufrock press) to challenge her to engage her reasoning skills. Use real literature, but give her lit guides rather than asking here to create projects or chase rabbit trails based on what she's learning. Use work boxes or checklists to let her have a plan for the day - some people just need that!

[Farrar]

I taught middle school for many years. I agree with others that only a very few logic stage kids could take an assignment like that and just run with it.

 

On the other hand, giving kids workbooks with fill in the blank and multiple choice type questions doesn't help them build up to it.

 

There's a middle ground though. You structure everything for them. So, while I don't know if that's exactly the sort of assignment I would give, I do know how to break it down for a kid. The assignment isn't make a brochure about reptiles, the assignment is the process, which might look something like:

1. read these books

2. using this graphic organizer, write down facts from these books

3. work together to hone the topic and organize the facts

4. write the summary

5. edit the summary

6. format the brochure

7. add pictures

 

And you'd need to be with her the whole way through. Today, do this. Now, do this... And that is mostly pretty reasonable for an 11 yo. Some would be fine to just take it and go, but not many.

 

But I think more straightforward narration is going to be a better path. If that was me, I'd just have her read and write a narration about the books. Then you can go over it together.

[mo2]

 

Have you listened to SWB's lectures regarding writing, homeschooling and working towards independence? (Well worth the money to my mind.) An approach to writing that is more systematic would likely suit her better than a creative, open ended project.

 

:iagree: While, for some reason unbeknownst to me, SWB's materials (FLL, WWE) don't click for us, I LOVE her lectures and WTM.

 

My 10yo would never be able to do an assignment like what you described. It's too open. She wouldn't know where to begin. For your dd, it may be partially because in PS, she *was* told what she should be doing every minute of the day. But I think it is probably more developmental/personality. I think kids have to learn how to do things independently. I'm working on leading my dd towards independence, but part of that is structure. She has a very detailed list of what she is to do each day, but I don't hold her hand every step of the way. Maybe a list would help in your situation? Even things like: Read pages _____ in _____ book. Write 1 paragraph about what was read. Do the next math lesson.

 

And really, there's nothing wrong with workbooks for some subjects if your dd likes them. We use a workbook for geography. It's quick. It's efficient. It requires no planning on my part. :)

 

Good luck. You'll figure it out.

[Kathryn]

:iagree: While, for some reason unbeknownst to me, SWB's materials (FLL, WWE) don't click for us, I LOVE her lectures and WTM.

 

My 10yo would never be able to do an assignment like what you described. It's too open. She wouldn't know where to begin. For your dd, it may be partially because in PS, she *was* told what she should be doing every minute of the day. But I think it is probably more developmental/personality. I think kids have to learn how to do things independently. I'm working on leading my dd towards independence, but part of that is structure. She has a very detailed list of what she is to do each day, but I don't hold her hand every step of the way. Maybe a list would help in your situation? Even things like: Read pages _____ in _____ book. Write 1 paragraph about what was read. Do the next math lesson.

 

And really, there's nothing wrong with workbooks for some subjects if your dd likes them. We use a workbook for geography. It's quick. It's efficient. It requires no planning on my part. :)

 

Good luck. You'll figure it out.

 

:iagree: I agree with this and the others. The assignment was far too open-ended, either because of personality or training. You're going to have to gently lead her into being able to do that type of assignment.

[PeterPan]

Sigh....you're right of course about the workbooks. What do I turn to for workbooks? I guess using some of the graphic organizers and scholastic books suggested in my other post may be a place to start. Oddly, for history she LOVES the year 4 history from Abeka. It is below her level but it has multiple choice, fill in the blanks, and short answer. All the stuff that she is comfortable with. I signed up for VP modern for next year so now what can I/do I need to supplement her work there that would be textbooky?? Or do I even need something??:confused:

 

Well that's great that you're finding things like LIKES!! Keep doing it!! Don't screw up things that are working. No, you don't need to add anything to the VP 1815 to modern. That's already going to take her 2 hours a week plus any reading you add. Well here I said don't add stuff. Add reading obviously. But other than that, it's really what she likes and what you want to do. You know you might like to take independence a different direction and pick out a series of recipes or crafts to go with the history, make sure they have VERY CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS, and have her do those.

 

Writing is a huge bugaboo for kids who need structure. There's a *reason* IEW has the name *structure and style* for their materials... That's one way to get structure. Using a curriculum that has clear guidance can work. When she gets a little older, a writing handbook or Jensen's Format writing. IEW, the BJU writing, anything where the expectations are CLEAR.

 

I don't know if you've listened to SWB's talk on K-12 writing yet, but she has a whole section on the middle grades. Outlining and seeing that structure is very important. There are even, gasp, workbooks you can buy to help her work on it. Paragraph Writing Made Easy might be a great step for her. Totally clear and explicit. Writing Skills (Diana King) is highly, highly recommended for kids who need clear instruction in structure. Just no vague assignments. Step by step, utterly clear. That's what you want.

[delaney]

I forgot to add that next year she is taking an IEW course called Powerful Paragraphs with an outside instructor twice per month. I think that will help as well.

I don't know why my expectations were so high. I really thought that it was reasonable and not at all too hard. I think I expect too much in general b/c I thought by this age she should be able to key word outline like a champ and form and organize thoughts. I was so stressed that she was so far behind what other kids can do:confused: I feel like hand holding through assignments is like...cheating. I really struggle with that feeling. Am I weird???

[PeterPan]

You need to TEACH and MODEL what you expect her to be able to do. She can't do it until you teach her how and break down the steps. And some kids need a lot more of that breaking down instruction than others. Some kids need a LOT of help to see structure. If I could give you any advice, it's to keep close tabs in her in that class and make sure she's getting the structure the teacher wants. Kids sometimes fall through the cracks in these once a week classes. The teacher doesn't know what to do if the kid doesn't immediately get it. So you'll want to make sure everything is clicking for her or break it down and support her even more. It's not CHEATING, it's TEACHING. She can't do it on her own till she has done it with someone enough that she gets it. :)

[MomatHWTK]

Independence is something we have to teach to our children. They don't just become that way because they are older than the other kids we need to teach. :) Sorry that sounded snarky! What I meant is, even when the littles come along, the bigger ones still need us. I have become frustrated so many times this year because I put oldest child in front of an assignment, planning to work with his younger siblings and two minutes later he needs me again! DD isn't too thrilled either. I finallly realized that I could be frustrated daily or I could just give up on my dream of "independent" learning for now. Sigh.

Edited May 11, 2012 by MomatHWTK

[sassenach]

I forgot to add that next year she is taking an IEW course called Powerful Paragraphs with an outside instructor twice per month. I think that will help as well.

I don't know why my expectations were so high. I really thought that it was reasonable and not at all too hard. I think I expect too much in general b/c I thought by this age she should be able to key word outline like a champ and form and organize thoughts. I was so stressed that she was so far behind what other kids can do:confused: I feel like hand holding through assignments is like...cheating. I really struggle with that feeling. Am I weird???

 

You're not alone. When my oldest hit 11 and 12, I shifted her into too much independent work, too fast. It wasn't until I listened to SWB's lecture that I realized that I had expected too much. I had it in my head that middle school = independent, but I didn't think through just how much hand holding she would need to get there. Actually, I was shocked by how much she needed. Amazingly, if you just incrementally move them into independence, they pretty much make the transition by high school.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Shannon831

[PeterPan]

You're not alone. When my oldest hit 11 and 12, I shifted her into too much independent work, too fast. It wasn't until I listened to SMB's lecture that I realized that I had expected too much. I had it in my head that middle school = independent, but I didn't think through just how much hand holding she would need to get there. Actually, I was shocked by how much she needed. Amazingly, if you just incrementally move them into independence, they pretty much make the transition by high school.

 

Yup, I think that idea got foisted on us or guilt-tripped into us because a few prominent writers in the early days of homeschooling had kids who COULD do that. So when we were starting out we read those books with promises about how our kids would be independent by 4th grade (hmm, should we name names here? Sure rings strongly in my memory after all these years) and then we feel guilty, or worse yet like we're missing out and not getting what WE deserve! We deserved to have a kid who was independent by 4th or 5th like that book said because WE worked hard.

 

Oh well, obviously isn't reality for a whole chunk of kids. I had fun tonight reading some old board posts going back several years by MtnTeaching and others. It was interesting to see people talking about 9th grade funk and kids needing moms even when they WANTED to be independent. So just because we *can* push them a certain way doesn't mean we *should*. I know my dd has talked about that. I pushed her to do a lot independently so I could attend to ds. And although she did, she felt really jipped, kwim? This summer we're pulling back and going the opposite way, more time together, more talking. It's taking some getting used to, but we're good now.

[MerryAtHope]

I feel like hand holding through assignments is like...cheating. I really struggle with that feeling. Am I weird???

 

Not weird, and not alone. However...the idea that hand-holding through assignments is cheating is a fallacy. Give kids as much help as they need. When they are able to do it without you, believe me, they'll let you know! And the very few who might not let you know, you just gradually nudge a little further but still stay nearby until they really can do it on their own.

 

Merry :-)

Edited May 11, 2012 by MerryAtHope

[Pen]

I don't know if this would help of not, but if she is workbooky and you are willing to just go with that (and nothing really wrong with it, I don't think) my son is really liking Spectrum Science right now. (You may need a year down from grade level to start, or even to start at lowest level, just to get the "What is Science?" basic type questions) It is not really science (in terms of labs and such) so much as science based reading, but has a lot of what one would expect an educated person to know about science. It is mostly workbooky fill the blank, short answer, multiple choice. My son is actually quite creative and artistic, but he would not handle an assignment like you suggested to your dd either (though he might do something like that if he thought of it himself). There is also Great Source Science Daybooks along these lines...the Great Source 4th grade book seems much easier than the Spectrum 3rd grade book, btw.

 

I am planning to try to then work toward using these short science based passages to work on IEW type writing, in order to increase, gradually, the move away from workbooky type responses.

[Momling]

Look into good quality, structured workbook type programs...

In your place I'd consider:

CLE math

Galore Park English

Singapore or GP science (or maybe Aha Science)

Evan moor Geography

 

You might consider History Portfolios if you want something more project based but still structured. There are instructions for each page that tells kids to do things like write a paragraph about Charlemagne or color a picture or do a crossword.