I have some proof we can all relax

[Joyofsixreboot]

I spend too much time worrying that my kids will be deficient in writing and grammar usage. Maybe my kids aren't doing so poorly after all. My college age dd is a junior at a small, well respected Christian college. She just told me they spent an entire lecture period going over grammar because the quality of writing has been so poor. Some topics covered: It's vs its, affect vs effect, possessives use an apostrophe, plurals do not, verb tense must agree. Oy! These are college juniors or seniors. She was so irritated( she is a grammar queen and finds my mistakes, grrr.) These students are all education majors. It doesn't fill me with hope for the future. On the other hand, my 5th grader's mistakes are looking less frightening. :001_smile:

[Jen500]

I spend too much time worrying that my kids will be deficient in writing and grammar usage. Maybe my kids aren't doing so poorly after all. My college age dd is a junior at a small, well respected Christian college. She just told me they spent an entire lecture period going over grammar because the quality of writing has been so poor. Some topics covered: It's vs its, affect vs effect, possessives use an apostrophe, plurals do not, verb tense must agree. Oy! These are college juniors or seniors. She was so irritated( she is a grammar queen and finds my mistakes, grrr.) These students are all education majors. It doesn't fill me with hope for the future. On the other hand, my 5th grader's mistakes are looking less frightening. :001_smile:

 

certainly not proof that I can relax. Especially as I highly doubt my kids will be education majors or attending a christian college.

[Haiku]

These students are all education majors.

 

There was a recent article (discussed here, I believe) about how education majors as a whole have the lowest aggregate SAT scores. The grammar and punctuation I see my dd17's teachers using appalls me. I have had to correct her language arts teacher's incorrect edits of her papers and send in pages from the MLA style guide to back up my corrections.

 

I agree with the PP. This is not proof that we can relax. This is proof that we need to keep at it.

 

Tara

[Jen500]

This is proof that we need to keep at it.

 

Tara

 

:iagree:

But I'm not expecting to do calculus in 7th grade or anything, :001_smile:

[Haiku]

:iagree:

But I'm not expecting to do calculus in 7th grade or anything, :001_smile:

 

Slacker. :p

 

Tara

[Mommyfaithe]

My kids, so far, Were the ONLY ones who could diagram a sentence in their English 101 class......and not just one sentence....ANY sentence the professor could throw at them. So far, this same prof. has had 3 of my kids, and can't wait to see if # 4 can do it as well.....lol, he can:D

 

 

Anyway, all those years of diagramming, and doing grammar paid off....at least as an " impress the professor" parlor trick. :tongue_smilie:

 

Oh, 1/2 the kids in the class could not identify a subject, a verb, or name the 8 parts of speech. THERE ARE ONLY 8 for goodness sake and this was COLLEGE !

It really shocked me......but, it didn't make me feel like I should back down and teach less. On the contrary, it made me realize I had to work even harder to offer my kids an exemplary education.....and my paranoid self was thinking...WTH, is this slowed down, dumbed down education most kids are receiving ON PURPOSE?? Is there a "stupid" agenda? It sure seems that way. But, i am suspicious that way.

 

It sort of reminds me of the old Bullwinkle where everyone was sprayed with Goof Gas.

Faithe

[Mommyfaithe]

:iagree:

But I'm not expecting to do calculus in 7th grade or anything, :001_smile:

 

No, me either. I will be happy to cover basic math, algebra and geometry in high school, but I want it covered THOROUGHLY. Lol.

[Joyofsixreboot]

certainly not proof that I can relax. Especially as I highly doubt my kids will be education majors or attending a christian college.

That was poorly titled. Not relax really, I just know that they aren't as behind as my darkest thoughts at 2am might have them to be. You know the thoughts where you imagine your children being laughed at or denied access because of their amazingly poor grammar or math skills. DD is an exception to the 'dumbest major' stats, but she wants to join the Peace Corps and teach so we'll see how that goes. I cannot see her being happy in a US classroom. (Think Marva Collins)

Edited March 3, 2012 by joyofsix

[NanceXToo]

I knew what you meant. Some homeschoolers worry about whether they are ruining their kid's lives by pulling them out of public school/not sending them to public school, and meanwhile so many of those public schoolers are getting to college not even knowing the difference between something as basic as its versus it's, so we're probably doing just fine. Especially if we see our 5th and 6th graders already know the things these college kids are scratching their heads over! It DOES help ME relax, I can relax knowing I CAN'T possibly do a worse job than the public schools around HERE do, especially when I see those standardized test results in the paper each year and see that my district is still the third worst in the area, that they're "on warning" for being below state average... if I ever had niggling doubts about whether pulling my daughter out and trying to teach her myself was the right thing to do and whether I really could provide her with a good education, I don't have those doubts anymore. I know she'll be fine.

[Ester Maria]

I would have had some serious points taken away in my middle and high school English *as a foreign language* assignments, in a country notorious for the fact that its schoolchildren (used to) know Latin better than English, for any one of those mistakes.

 

We used to have those things counted not as one, but as TWO mistakes. If you had some very elementary mistake past very elementary years, TWO points were off, not one. (I do the same with my children.)

 

How pathetic that English as a foreign language is taught at a higher standard in some places than English as a native language in some other places.

[Amy in TX]

How pathetic that English as a foreign language is taught at a higher standard in some places than English as a native language in some other places.

 

:iagree:

 

I used to work as a document editor in an aerospace technology company that was a NASA contractor. Part of my job was editing the specifications and user documentation produced by the engineers. By far, the better documents were produced by the engineers who had not been educated in the US. The difference was so striking that I was always commenting on it.

[Susan in KY]

certainly not proof that I can relax. Especially as I highly doubt my kids will be education majors or attending a christian college.

:confused::confused:

[katilac]

That was poorly titled. Not relax really, I just know that they aren't as behind as my darkest thoughts at 2am might have them to be.

 

I know what you mean - relax as in don't stay up worrying, not relax as in ease off on their schooling!

 

I know that correlation isn't causation, but it's interesting to note that the push for early writing assignments seems to correlate with a decline in overall standards (that unfortunately doesn't end in the early years).

[FO4UR]

I get what you mean. :iagree: with the idea that it means we need to keep to the highest standards at home as well.

 

 

Can you imagine how *few* people will be educated in basic English in say....20 years? If we don't educate a few of the younger generation, who will?

 

 

Another anecdote, but one of the "Maybe HSing isn't such a bad idea." pushes in our extended family has been a relative's experience in graduate school. She is working in Master's level classes with people who cannot write a sentence, let alone a paper. She has to read this dribble, and comment and reply as part of her grade.:tongue_smilie: Anyway...her complaints about wasting time b/c PROFESSIONAL people who have at *least* a bach degree cannot write a coherent sentence were an easy open to gush about WWE/FLL. HSing is still not all rainbows and sunshine, but there is a certain level of "Well, Paula can't mess them up any worse than THAT!?:001_huh::lol:

 

 

It's not exactly a ticket to relax with what I do at home. It is a ticket to encourage my friends and family to :chillpill: a bit.

[LeslieAnneLevine]

certainly not proof that I can relax. Especially as I highly doubt my kids will be education majors or attending a christian college.

:001_huh:

 

How pathetic that English as a foreign language is taught at a higher standard in some places than English as a native language in some other places.

 

I think all those things mentioned in the OP are taught, but for some reason they don't always stick. I remember the editor-in-chief of my university's newspaper asking the news editor to explain the difference between it's and its. She wasn't poorly educated, she just could never remember the rule.

 

I really started to understand grammar while taking classes in French, Spanish and German (beginning in 9th grade at a U.S. public school). Things like direct and indirect objects, passive voice, and gerunds became much clearer. My previous lack of knowledge hadn't hindered me, so it makes sense there would be more emphasis on grammar in learning English as a foreign language than there is for native speakers. I think it's difficult for many people to take a step back and get a good look at their own language without learning a foreign one. It's like asking if a fish knows what water is (he doesn't-- until he's taken out of it).

Edited March 3, 2012 by LeslieAnneLevine

[Ester Maria]

I think all those things mentioned in the OP are taught, but for some reason they don't always stick. I remember the editor-in-chief of my university's newspaper asking the news editor to explain the difference between it's and its. She wasn't poorly educated, she just could never remember the rule.

 

I really started to understand grammar while taking classes in French, Spanish and German (beginning in 9th grade at a U.S. public school). Things like direct and indirect objects, passive voice, and gerunds became much clearer. My previous lack of knowledge hadn't hindered me, so it makes sense there would be more emphasis on grammar in learning English as a foreign language than there is for native speakers. I think it's difficult for many people to take a step back and get a good look at their own language without learning a foreign one. It's like asking if a fish knows what water is (he doesn't-- until he's taken out of it).

I absolutely agree, on all counts, I just do not think it is "normal" for elementary things regarding literacy in your own language not to stick... even if the rule or the reason behind it is forgotten, would BY that time those things not already be quite automatized, and would full time university students not spend a lot of time reading and researching, thus constantly being in contact with the written word?

[Haiku]

she just could never remember the rule.

 

 

 

Knowing the difference between a contraction and a possessive is not a rule-based thing. It's a not stopping to think about what you are saying/meaning thing.

 

It's easy to say, "The car lost it is tire" to realize that "it's" is incorrect.

 

If you can't tell why one is correct and one isn't, it's not because you can't remember the rule. It's (It is) because you don't understand what you are doing in the first place.

 

Tara

[Jean in Newcastle]

Knowing the difference between a contraction and a possessive is not a rule-based thing. It's a not stopping to think about what you are saying/meaning thing.

 

It's easy to say, "The car lost it is tire" to realize that "it's" is incorrect.

 

If you can't tell why one is correct and one isn't, it's not because you can't remember the rule. It's (It is) because you don't understand what you are doing in the first place.

 

Tara

 

I don't think I agree with you here. I have no trouble with this rule but it is a rather arbitrary rule that says that the apostrophe in "it's" doesn't show possession but instead is used as a contraction. I could see someone saying, "I know that it's means one thing and its means the other but I can't remember off hand which is which."

[LAS in LA]

 

 

I really started to understand grammar while taking classes in French, Spanish and German (beginning in 9th grade at a U.S. public school). Things like direct and indirect objects, passive voice, and gerunds became much clearer. My previous lack of knowledge hadn't hindered me, so it makes sense there would be more emphasis on grammar in learning English as a foreign language than there is for native speakers. I think it's difficult for many people to take a step back and get a good look at their own language without learning a foreign one. It's like asking if a fish knows what water is (he doesn't-- until he's taken out of it).

 

:iagree:

[Haiku]

I don't think I agree with you here. I have no trouble with this rule but it is a rather arbitrary rule that says that the apostrophe in "it's" doesn't show possession but instead is used as a contraction. I could see someone saying, "I know that it's means one thing and its means the other but I can't remember off hand which is which."

 

I think that is along the same lines of knowing the math formula but not really understanding why you do what you do. Its and it's work in the same way that hers (not her's) and can't (not cant) work to show the difference between possessive and contraction.

 

Tara

[Matryoshka]

I don't think I agree with you here. I have no trouble with this rule but it is a rather arbitrary rule that says that the apostrophe in "it's" doesn't show possession but instead is used as a contraction. I could see someone saying, "I know that it's means one thing and its means the other but I can't remember off hand which is which."

 

Nouns use apostrophes for possession; pronouns never do (think: his, yours, ours, theirs). If it's a pronoun, no apostrophe. And its can't possibly mean "it is", as there's a letter missing that needs a contraction. So by process of elimination, the possessive has to be the one without the apostrophe.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Nouns use apostrophes for possession; pronouns never do (think: his, yours, ours, theirs). If it's a pronoun, no apostrophe. And its can't possibly mean "it is", as there's a letter missing that needs a contraction. So by process of elimination, the possessive has to be the one without the apostrophe.

 

If I had it explained to me, I had forgotten it. I do remember being taught to diagram, so I did have pretty good grammar instruction. I never thought to stop and think about the reason why it was one way or the other though because I always found it easy to use it correctly. And my kids haven't seemed to have had difficulty in using it correctly either. (I'd better go explain to them why we do it this way.:auto:)