Sew happily ever after Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Maybe someone could help me understand what all the hype about it is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 What's the hype? There are those of us who use it (not that many) but I don't think we hype it. It has an interesting approach to math that, for my children, promotes mathematical thinking. I recommend you watch the videos. http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mepres/primary/default.htm Video clips of MEP Primary Teaching Introduction to MEP Year 1 Teaching Year 3 Teaching Year 4 Teaching Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Maybe someone could help me understand what all the hype about it is? I think I know what you mean ... MEP does a terrific job of teaching mathematical concepts. The more math-savvy a person is the better it seems to them, in my experience; I think it's nice, and I have a strong math background; my husband thinks it is the only math program for elementary he has seen that actually emphasizes math-thinking, rather than mainly computational skill, and he can't really understand why I insist on using MathUSee too :) -- he is extremely mathematically savvy -- he does rather fancy data analysis and statistics in his work. A child moving through this program will pick up set theory, flexible problem-solving skills, get used to thinking about the many properties of numbers -- how they add & subtract & multiply &c; how many digits they are; are they prime?, and gather a great deal of experience in extrapolating patterns. I like it b/c it comes closer to showing the sorts of things that people who love math really enjoy. I know mathematicians and physicists and folks who do computational theory and model neural networks (well, I did in my Former Life :)), and none of them enjoy arithmetic. They like thinking about numbers, groups, properties, and that's what MEP does. -- have to go help Button! hope this helps; will be interested to see what others say ... Edited February 19, 2012 by serendipitous journey grammar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Can this be used as a supplement? My son has a lot of trouble with patterns (not just with math) and the comment about getting lots of practice with extrapolating patterns caught my eye. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanikit Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 There was an article posted about somewhere (and I am afraid I cannot find it now) that discussed why Math is really an art and how math thinking is not taught in schools - that we are so busy teaching them facts and drills that they miss out on mathematical thinking and problem solving just slotting everything into a formula that means little. MEP seems to enable more thinking from the child and more problem solving than other traditional curricula. I am using it as a supplement and it works well that way. It seems quite a lot of people use it as a supplement and I am not entirely sure why - maybe because it is free, maybe because it is sometimes hard to know where you are going with it and its harder to see initially if your child has mastered a specific thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathkath Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I think I know what you mean ... MEP does a terrific job of teaching mathematical concepts. The more math-savvy a person is the better it seems to them, in my experience; I think it's nice, and I have a strong math background; my husband thinks it is the only math program for elementary he has seen that actually emphasizes math-thinking, rather than mainly computational skill, and he can't really understand why I insist on using MathUSee too :) -- he is extremely mathematically savvy -- he does rather fancy data analysis and statistics in his work. A child moving through this program will pick up set theory, flexible problem-solving skills, get used to thinking about the many properties of numbers -- how they add & subtract & multiply &c; how many digits they are; are they prime?, and gather a great deal of experience in extrapolating patterns. I like it b/c it comes closer to showing the sorts of things that people who love math really enjoy. I know mathematicians and physicists and folks who do computational theory and model neural networks (well, I did in my Former Life :)), and none of them enjoy arithmetic. They like thinking about numbers, groups, properties, and that's what MEP does. -- have to go help Button! hope this helps; will be interested to see what others say ... Bingo. Try walking through a few lessons in level 2 or higher, with the tm and student page next to each other. I agree it's not hype. I do think it looks intimidating at first but think its the best thing I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Can this be used as a supplement? My son has a lot of trouble with patterns (not just with math) and the comment about getting lots of practice with extrapolating patterns caught my eye. Lisa Absolutely. MEP goes just through year 6, really; I gather that the older years are for children who didn't get it the first time through or came to it late, so you might want to keep that in mind when planning it. When we started I supplemented with it, and used just the worksheet portion and not the lesson plans. However, some problems didn't make sense and those I looked up in the lesson plans to see how they should be done. So I would say you could supplement with it by either using the worksheets, and go through portions of the lesson plans ahead of time for things that don't make sense to you; or you could start by looking at the lesson plans and doing the things that interest you and/or the child. The lesson plans contain maybe twice as much teaching material as just the worksheets, and some of Button's favorite activities have come from the plans and were not mentioned on the worksheets. That said, he really enjoyed the worksheet portion when that's what we did. To begin, I would look at a year much younger than your child's current one -- Kath's suggestion above of Year2 sounds excellent -- and pull problems that are interesting & challenging conceptually. For instance, the Roman numeral problems or some of the interesting pattern completions. You can skim through by looking at the first week of sheets/plans in each subsection or by going over the scope and sequence. It would be hard to "supplement" with the full plans, b/c they take about 45 minutes each plus some prep time for things to flow as smoothly as possible (on a hectic week we do the worksheets while I have the lesson plans up on my laptop ;)). But they _are_ very rich in content. You might want to do a full lesson plan 2 or 3 times a week? -- just try something and see how it works. We are paralleling MEP with MathUSee and also drilling with CalcuLadder, which works well for us right now. MEP has 4 full lessons each week and 1 review, which is a worksheet that has no additional lesson plan/problems; I try to present a full lesson plan Mon, Wed and Fri and do just a worksheet/review or pull problems for T/Th. Edited February 19, 2012 by serendipitous journey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Can you be a little more specific about what you don't get? We use and love MEP, and I'd be happy to explain, but I'm not sure what you mean by "hype" or what your question really is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Absolutely. MEP goes just through year 6, really; I gather that the older years are for children who didn't get it the first time through or came to it late, so you might want to keep that in mind when planning it. When we started I supplemented with it, and used just the worksheet portion and not the lesson plans. However, some problems didn't make sense and those I looked up in the lesson plans to see how they should be done. So I would say you could supplement with it by either using the worksheets, and go through portions of the lesson plans ahead of time for things that don't make sense to you; or you could start by looking at the lesson plans and doing the things that interest you and/or the child. The lesson plans contain maybe twice as much teaching material as just the worksheets, and some of Button's favorite activities have come from the plans and were not mentioned on the worksheets. That said, he really enjoyed the worksheet portion when that's what we did. To begin, I would look at a year much younger than your child's current one -- Kath's suggestion above of Year2 sounds excellent -- and pull problems that are interesting & challenging conceptually. For instance, the Roman numeral problems or some of the interesting pattern completions. You can skim through by looking at the first week of sheets/plans in each subsection or by going over the scope and sequence. It would be hard to "supplement" with the full plans, b/c they take about 45 minutes each plus some prep time for things to flow as smoothly as possible (on a hectic week we do the worksheets while I have the lesson plans up on my laptop ;)). But they _are_ very rich in content. You might want to do a full lesson plan 2 or 3 times a week? -- just try something and see how it works. We are paralleling MEP with MathUSee and also drilling with CalcuLadder, which works well for us right now. MEP has 4 full lessons each week and 1 review, which is a worksheet that has no additional lesson plan/problems; I try to present a full lesson plan Mon, Wed and Fri and do just a worksheet/review or pull problems for T/Th. Thanks for all the info! I think I will check it out and see if we can't do some of the pattern-based problems a couple of days a week. I may start at a really low level and see how he does before moving up. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 As far as I see it, as day 5 of every week is a review, every 5th lesson is probably the least interesting in terms of its approach because it tends to be more straight forward. Anyway keep that in mind. You might even like the 5th lessons the best for that reason. But they are different from the other 4 lessons per week. I don't see a lot of MEP hype because, whenever there's been a poll (such as this one), it doesn't look like that many people use it, as compared to, say, Singapore. People don't tend to hype what they're not using. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariston Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I think I know what you mean ... MEP does a terrific job of teaching mathematical concepts. The more math-savvy a person is the better it seems to them, in my experience; I think it's nice, and I have a strong math background; my husband thinks it is the only math program for elementary he has seen that actually emphasizes math-thinking, rather than mainly computational skill, and he can't really understand why I insist on using MathUSee too :) -- he is extremely mathematically savvy -- he does rather fancy data analysis and statistics in his work. A child moving through this program will pick up set theory, flexible problem-solving skills, get used to thinking about the many properties of numbers -- how they add & subtract & multiply &c; how many digits they are; are they prime?, and gather a great deal of experience in extrapolating patterns. I like it b/c it comes closer to showing the sorts of things that people who love math really enjoy. I know mathematicians and physicists and folks who do computational theory and model neural networks (well, I did in my Former Life :)), and none of them enjoy arithmetic. They like thinking about numbers, groups, properties, and that's what MEP does. QUOTE] I love your answer and agree with all of it!! Elena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poke Salad Annie Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) We use MEP and love it. This program opens doors for discussion, and many days we veer off a bit from the lesson to work on something that comes up in the lesson plans. One day we spent a good thirty minutes on making factor *trees*, just because it was fun. MEP seems to stretch your brain, making you think in all sorts of ways about how to express numbers as values. I don't know of anything else really profound to say, except that it is well-loved here, and that we plan to continue using it as long as possible. If you have the time, look over the upper levels of work in the GCSE sections. Edited February 20, 2012 by Poke Salad Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiddenJewel Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Absolutely. MEP goes just through year 6, really; I gather that the older years are for children who didn't get it the first time through or came to it late, so you might want to keep that in mind when planning it. This surprises me after looking at the scope and sequence for the upper level CIMT courses. All I see the usual basic junior and senior high school subject matter, not remedial lessons. For the OP - What may help is to take a look at the Scope and Sequence for each year. The lesson plans and the student activity pages allow for the student to learn these concepts forwards and backwards as well as stretching the brain in the use of logic patterns. Year One Year Two Year Three Edited February 19, 2012 by HiddenJewel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mama27 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Maybe someone could help me understand what all the hype about it is? I don't get it either. Of course I think math is a torture device so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiddenJewel Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I actually didn't get MEP until I printed the first two weeks of the teacher guide and the student pages. I put them side by side, went down the TG step by step, and bang - I finally understood it and I liked what I saw. The part I like most about MEP so far is that it doesn't just teach a formula to be memorized but teaches the student to be able to manipulate numbers and math concepts in all sorts of directions. The presentation is very simple and the student pages are not overwhelming yet there is a depth to the learning I want for my children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Absolutely. MEP goes just through year 6, really; I gather that the older years are for children who didn't get it the first time through or came to it late, so you might want to keep that in mind when planning it. This is true of Y7-9, not the upper level materials. However, nothing after Y6 has the same feel as the elementary materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiddenJewel Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 This is true of Y7-9, not the upper level materials. However, nothing after Y6 has the same feel as the elementary materials. Can you describe the different "feel" more? Is it just because it isn't as teacher-based as the younger levels or is the teaching not as mentally challenging? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Can you describe the different "feel" more? Is it just because it isn't as teacher-based as the younger levels or is the teaching not as mentally challenging? Thanks. I haven't taught the upper levels, but the presentation is a more traditional format of introduction/text with examples followed by problem set based on the text. There doesn't appear to be the same kind of mental stretching you see in Y1-6. IMHO, AoPS courses are a more appropriate followup to the brain-busting elementary materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiddenJewel Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I haven't taught the upper levels, but the presentation is a more traditional format of introduction/text with examples followed by problem set based on the text. There doesn't appear to be the same kind of mental stretching you see in Y1-6. IMHO, AoPS courses are a more appropriate followup to the brain-busting elementary materials. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Regarding the OP: I imagine she's responding to enthusiasm around MEP by those of us who love it. I personally think it's marvelous! and that, I suppose, could reasonably be called "hype". The Big Feelings around MEP come from its conceptual nature, and it's the only thing out there that I have come across that is systematic & thorough & really excellent in terms of math thinking. But other threads have included comments by folks looked at MEP, and even started using it, and were unimpressed. The children were doing interesting things, they saw, but were they learning anything? the parents wondered. Were they developing sufficient computational skills? Would they be behind? and what exactly was the point? so I think this hype-question is in the air. [i've edited out a second bit to this response, regarding years 7-9, which was much better addressed above while I wrote this :)] Edited February 20, 2012 by serendipitous journey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 How do you use the "Exercises" section? Is that some sort of placement test or is it just pulling out all the problem solving questions for each level in case that is all you want to focus on? I'm not sure why these are separated out from the lessons? Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 How do you use the "Exercises" section? Is that some sort of placement test or is it just pulling out all the problem solving questions for each level in case that is all you want to focus on? I'm not sure why these are separated out from the lessons? That's in the "Teacher Support in Preparation for Year __" section, right? Those are exercises for the teacher to do. Before you start the year, you work the problems and then study the answers with commentary. It helps prepare you for the kind of work being done in that level, and how to approach problems the MEP way. I've never done the exercises, myself, but I do appreciate seeing the talked-through solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 That's in the "Teacher Support in Preparation for Year __" section, right? Those are exercises for the teacher to do. Before you start the year, you work the problems and then study the answers with commentary. It helps prepare you for the kind of work being done in that level, and how to approach problems the MEP way. I've never done the exercises, myself, but I do appreciate seeing the talked-through solutions. Thank you, Rivka. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 That's in the "Teacher Support in Preparation for Year __" section, right? Those are exercises for the teacher to do. Before you start the year, you work the problems and then study the answers with commentary. It helps prepare you for the kind of work being done in that level, and how to approach problems the MEP way. I've never done the exercises, myself, but I do appreciate seeing the talked-through solutions. ... I didn't know that, either -- thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertmum Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I don't get MEP either. I'll admit that math is not my strongest subject. I have trouble with MEP. I struggle to understand how it works and I don't find it "open and go". do you do 45 minutes each day? That seems way too much for a 5yo. Also, if you didn't start with this programme how do you jump into it? do you go back one level? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Also, if you didn't start with this programme how do you jump into it? do you go back one level? :confused: I think most people who haven't started with it go back and then speed through, spending time on what the child does not understand and skipping the rest. But this is where the MEP Yahoo group is helpful. I don't think one would have to actually complete a lesson in Y1 with a 5 year old. Work for however long you want. (What's the rush?) Then come back to that spot the next day. That being said, in some cases, working with one student is much faster than a class, while in other cases, I find certain exercises allotted, say, 3 minutes take waaaay more with only one, I think because there is no one else to pick up the slack or take turns with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariston Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I don't think one would have to actually complete a lesson in Y1 with a 5 year old. Work for however long you want. (What's the rush?) Then come back to that spot the next day. That being said, in some cases, working with one student is much faster than a class, while in other cases, I find certain exercises allotted, say, 3 minutes take waaaay more with only one, I think because there is no one else to pick up the slack or take turns with. Yes I agree...that's what I did when my son was 5. I just stopped wherever we were after 20 minutes and then picked it up in the same place the next day. I also find the time estimates to be completely inaccurate for me. But I have to say, I find MEP to be completely open and go for me. It rarely requires any extra 'props' and it helps me that each activity is in its own little box...it makes it clearer for me to just open up and go because I don't have to read ahead. Desertmum what do you find yourself spending time on that keeps it from being open and go for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The children were doing interesting things, they saw, but were they learning anything? the parents wondered. Were they developing sufficient computational skills? Would they be behind? and what exactly was the point? so I think this hype-question is in the air. The above is how I felt after using nearly all of 1A. I wasn't worried about my DS being behind as he was only 5 at the time. But I couldn't tell if he was actually making any progress in math or whether he was spinning in circle (very interesting circles, but circles none-the-less). After nearly half of the year, he was only up to sums totaling <9. 1B only covers sums up to 20. In contrast, Singapore does sums up to 100 by the end of 1B and Right Start has the student adding two 4-digit numbers. That said, I just printed out a copy of MEP 2A the other day. I've been feeling that DS needs more spiral review added to the RS/Singapore combo he's been doing. I considered Horizons but printing MEP would cost less and MEP really does have some very interesting puzzle-type problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiddenJewel Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The above is how I felt after using nearly all of 1A. I wasn't worried about my DS being behind as he was only 5 at the time. But I couldn't tell if he was actually making any progress in math or whether he was spinning in circle (very interesting circles, but circles none-the-less). After nearly half of the year, he was only up to sums totaling <9. 1B only covers sums up to 20. In contrast, Singapore does sums up to 100 by the end of 1B and Right Start has the student adding two 4-digit numbers. That said, I just printed out a copy of MEP 2A the other day. I've been feeling that DS needs more spiral review added to the RS/Singapore combo he's been doing. I considered Horizons but printing MEP would cost less and MEP really does have some very interesting puzzle-type problems. MEP Level 1 only covering numbers from 1-20 is a huge plus for me. We used RS Level B prior and it moved WAY too fast and concepts were not cemented before moving on. I like that the student gets to work with the lower quantities so he knows them backwards and forwards before moving on to higher quantities. It's like spending time building a solid reading foundation before pushing the child to read books. This takes time and the benefits are sometimes only seen at a later date. We started this year with Math Mammoth for dd8 and it was just too overwhelming for her. I switched to MEP 2 about 3 months ago and I am seeing a HUGE jump in her ability to use math in everyday life. Prior to MEP, it was like she couldn't apply what we were learning outside of math class. Now she does it with no hesitation. And math class no longer includes meltdowns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiddenJewel Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I don't get MEP either. I'll admit that math is not my strongest subject. I have trouble with MEP. I struggle to understand how it works and I don't find it "open and go". do you do 45 minutes each day? That seems way too much for a 5yo. I spend about 20 minutes each day with dd8. So, no, you definitely don't have to do 45 minutes per day. You work through the steps until your student is ready to stop for the day (which may be 5-10 minutes for some). As far as open and go, the teacher guide is laid out step by step and all you have to do is read and do. It is nice to have looked it over ahead of time so you are aware what is being covered for the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The above is how I felt after using nearly all of 1A. I wasn't worried about my DS being behind as he was only 5 at the time. But I couldn't tell if he was actually making any progress in math or whether he was spinning in circle (very interesting circles, but circles none-the-less). After nearly half of the year, he was only up to sums totaling <9. 1B only covers sums up to 20. In contrast, Singapore does sums up to 100 by the end of 1B and Right Start has the student adding two 4-digit numbers. Well, okay. But my daughter who just finished MEP 2b knows her times tables to 10x10 and can divide with remainders and factor numbers, and her best friend who's finishing up Singapore 2b won't get the 6-9 times tables or division with remainders until 3a, or factoring until 4a. Does that mean that now Singapore is behind? Or are the different curricula just following different sequences? It's clear that MEP Year 1 is not focused on progressing through the addition and subtraction facts ASAP. Instead, MEP introduces algebraic concepts very, very early, when kids are still only manipulating very small numbers. For example, in Year 1a, Lesson 34, kids are still just working with the numbers 0-3. There is an exercise that shows three scales. First scale: evenly balanced. Two apples on one side, closed bag on the other. Second scale: tipped to the right. Left side, two apples. Right side, one apple and a closed bag. Third scale: tipped to the left. Left side, three apples. Right side, closed bag. For the exercise, the kids are asked to figure out how many apples could be in each bag. "Could be," not "are," because even at this super-early level MEP is presenting kids with problems that have solution sets, not just a single solution. In 1b, kids are given the word problem, "Some ducks and tortoises are in the garden. There are five heads altogether. How many legs could there be?" Then they need to make out a table showing all the different possible combinations of ducks and tortoises, and how many legs each combination would have. Again, all the numbers in this puzzle are less than 20, but the skills needed to conceptualize and figure out this multistep problem are significant. I can understand making the value judgment that you would rather have a first grader concentrate on learning and applying addition and subtraction facts in a straightforward manner, and progressing more quickly towards applying double-digit addition and subtraction algorithms. That's a valid point of view. But I really don't understand how you could look at your five- or six-year-old solving these complex problems and say "I can't tell if he's learning anything." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) MEP Level 1 only covering numbers from 1-20 is a huge plus for me. I agree. I was using several other math programs, including the English translation of Japanese grade 1, Right Start activities books, and others, and despite theoretically knowing the equations (and getting them right!), my child had ABSOLUTELY no clue how to apply them to a real problem. So I appreciated the depth. Once we sort of soaked in the numbers <10, we were able to speed up a bit on the teens. I think the balancing problems are exceptionally complicated and require very deep thought. Having them begin with 0, 1, and 2, for example, allows a very intuitive start to a very complex relationship. I am a big fan. I like the puzzling aspect. I have no doubt that they're learning using it. ETA: I also think it's interesting that focusing on numbers < 20 is one of the factors to which Liping Ma attributes the success of Chinese elementary math instruction. Edited February 20, 2012 by stripe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondeviolin Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 This is why I really like MEP Y1. Abby is only five so keeping numbers below 20 is very developmentally appropriate. Yet, it's not just straight up addition and subtraction problems. These actually cause her to pause and think and work through the math in a unique way. SM 1b doesn't challenge her at all; MM 1b isn't challenging her. Yes, she can add 2-digit numbers if she really thinks about it, but she's just not there developmentally to do it too often. What do you do with a 5yo who knows all of her addition facts, some of her smaller multiplication facts, can tell time to the minute, etc? Well, you do MEP. I'm very happy for MEP and the strength it is for my daughter. Well, okay. But my daughter who just finished MEP 2b knows her times tables to 10x10 and can divide with remainders and factor numbers, and her best friend who's finishing up Singapore 2b won't get the 6-9 times tables or division with remainders until 3a, or factoring until 4a. Does that mean that now Singapore is behind? Or are the different curricula just following different sequences? It's clear that MEP Year 1 is not focused on progressing through the addition and subtraction facts ASAP. Instead, MEP introduces algebraic concepts very, very early, when kids are still only manipulating very small numbers. For example, in Year 1a, Lesson 34, kids are still just working with the numbers 0-3. There is an exercise that shows three scales. First scale: evenly balanced. Two apples on one side, closed bag on the other. Second scale: tipped to the right. Left side, two apples. Right side, one apple and a closed bag. Third scale: tipped to the left. Left side, three apples. Right side, closed bag. For the exercise, the kids are asked to figure out how many apples could be in each bag. "Could be," not "are," because even at this super-early level MEP is presenting kids with problems that have solution sets, not just a single solution. In 1b, kids are given the word problem, "Some ducks and tortoises are in the garden. There are five heads altogether. How many legs could there be?" Then they need to make out a table showing all the different possible combinations of ducks and tortoises, and how many legs each combination would have. Again, all the numbers in this puzzle are less than 20, but the skills needed to conceptualize and figure out this multistep problem are significant. I can understand making the value judgment that you would rather have a first grader concentrate on learning and applying addition and subtraction facts in a straightforward manner, and progressing more quickly towards applying double-digit addition and subtraction algorithms. That's a valid point of view. But I really don't understand how you could look at your five- or six-year-old solving these complex problems and say "I can't tell if he's learning anything." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondeviolin Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Also, I would be surprised if most kids who were working trough MEP Y1 weren't able to apply the same concepts to bigger numbers. My 5yo does consistently because she has experience constructing and deconstructing numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 MEP is amazing in how it promotes *thinking skills* along with the math. It may be harder to quantify those logic, critical thinking, and reasoning skills than the acquisition of simple "math facts", but....... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 T Also, I would be surprised if most kids who were working trough MEP Y1 weren't able to apply the same concepts to bigger numbers. My 5yo does consistently because she has experience constructing and deconstructing numbers.This has been my experience with DD the Younger. She also figured out how negative numbers work after spontaneously "seeing" that zero was like a mirror line on the number line, after a period of working with reflections. In the case of Y1, smaller numbers allow the kids to grasp concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariston Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 But I really don't understand how you could look at your five- or six-year-old solving these complex problems and say "I can't tell if he's learning anything." I agree with everything you wrote in your post, but I think I understand what the PP meant. When my son was in Year 1, there were many times that he would be getting the right answers, but I could tell he just didn't 'get it'. This was frustrating for me at first. But then as I progressed through the year, I saw how MEP kept sprinkling the concepts in throughout and eventually he would have his lightbulb moment. I think its something you just have to get used to in teaching something that's spiral instead of linear. Elena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I can understand making the value judgment that you would rather have a first grader concentrate on learning and applying addition and subtraction facts in a straightforward manner, and progressing more quickly towards applying double-digit addition and subtraction algorithms. That's a valid point of view. But I really don't understand how you could look at your five- or six-year-old solving these complex problems and say "I can't tell if he's learning anything." I absolutely agree that there are some excellent puzzle problems in MEP 1 and I didn't exactly feel that the time spent doing them was wasted per se. I just couldn't quiet the nagging voice of doubt as to whether or not he was actually making any progress in math after having spent several months working through almost all of MEP 1A. Whereas with a program like Right Start B or Singapore 1A/B, it's very easy to judge that my student is making progress. I really want to like MEP, which is why I'm giving 2A a shot as a supplement. Because I'll be using it for spiral review, I won't have to worry about whether or not DS is making adequate progress overall in math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiddenJewel Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) I absolutely agree that there are some excellent puzzle problems in MEP 1 and I didn't exactly feel that the time spent doing them was wasted per se. I just couldn't quiet the nagging voice of doubt as to whether or not he was actually making any progress in math after having spent several months working through almost all of MEP 1A. Whereas with a program like Right Start B or Singapore 1A/B, it's very easy to judge that my student is making progress. I really want to like MEP, which is why I'm giving 2A a shot as a supplement. Because I'll be using it for spiral review, I won't have to worry about whether or not DS is making adequate progress overall in math. Those nagging doubts are one of the biggest things that make homeschooling hard. What it boils down to is how progress is defined. Having been through the elementary years with one set of students and now starting with my 2nd set, my definition of progress has drastically changed. With the first set, I needed to see them moving through their material pretty much like a traditional scope and sequence. With my next two I am looking for a strong foundation of the beginning reading, writing, and arithmetic concepts even if they don't appear to accomplishing many new topics. My definition has changed because I see how much deeper their junior and senior high school studies could have been if I had taken the time to ensure a stronger foundation of the early concepts. Their learning would have been exponentially more than it is. In my mind, taking a year to learn numbers 1-20 inside and out is on the same learning level as narration and other parts of the Charlotte Mason LA. It may not look like much on the surface but the skills taught are plentiful. Edited February 20, 2012 by HiddenJewel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraidycat Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 We just started MEP last week. Today, in lesson 7 of MEP Y1, DS was learning greater than, less than, and equal to. I have to admit that I did a double take when I glanced through the lesson plan ahead of time, and hesitated about continuing on, but he knows taller, shorter, bigger, smaller, so heck...why not give greater than and less than a try? He did really well for his first exposure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeganW Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Those nagging doubts are one of the biggest things that make homeschooling hard. What it boils down to is how progress is defined. Having been through the elementary years with one set of students and now starting with my 2nd set, my definition of progress has drastically changed. With the first set, I needed to see them moving through their material pretty much like a traditional scope and sequence. With my next two I am looking for a strong foundation of the beginning reading, writing, and arithmetic concepts even if they don't appear to accomplishing many new topics. My definition has changed because I see how much deeper their junior and senior high school studies could have been if I had taken the time to ensure a stronger foundation of the early concepts. Their learning would have been exponentially more than it is. In my mind, taking a year to learn numbers 1-20 inside and out is on the same learning level as narration and other parts of the Charlotte Mason LA. It may not look like much on the surface but the skills taught are plentiful. That is true wisdom, right there! I am printing this out!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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