SOTW driving me mad!

[Grover]

Well, actually doing SOTW with DS is driving me mad.

 

We read the chapter, talk about it as we go, look at the maps, relate it to what we've already read, look at pictures, read the chapter some more and then I ask him the questions from the activity guide. He looks at me blankly or makes stuff up that he 'thinks' might be vaguely related to the topic. We go back over the material, talk about the information some more. Discuss the answer. I ask him the question again. He looks at me blankly. Repeat, ad infinitum.

 

Seriously doing my head in, and not helping our relationship AT ALL. He says he loves it. He cries when I suggest that perhaps he is not ready and we will put it aside until he is more mature and ready to listen and understand and recall information.

 

Today I got cross and made him read the chapter himself. Still blank look. Made him read it to me. Nothing.

 

I'm not talking inference here, I'm talking straight up recall of facts explicitly stated in the text. It's well within his level of comfort for general comprehension.

 

Help? Please?

[Steven]

We are doing are second year of SOTW. My daughter is 7. We listen to the CDs in the car multiple times before I attempt to have her answer the review questions or do a narration. I don't think I could bear to read the book out loud to her as often as we listen in the car. In fact our real problem is that she has heard it so often, she can often recite it word for word. Getting her to do a narration in her own words is difficult.

 

If you don't have the CDs, you might consider buying them. Perhaps you can get them from the library or borrow from another family to test to see if multiple listening helps.

[Mommy22alyns]

How old is he?

[ssavings]

Maybe notebooking or lapbooking the information will help him retain it better?

[Grover]

How old is he?

 

he's 5, but profoundly gifted and accelerated in all areas.

 

I think what's bugging me the most is that he CAN retell / narrate and answer questions from a variety of sources fiction and nonfiction (and loves to do so, even when I'm not interested :001_huh:) but we seem to have a roadblock with SOTW. I'm struggling to work out whether it's an 'actual' block or an attitude issue or he's finding the conversational tone hard or what.

 

I'd like to just shelve it and try again in 6 months, but this upsets him even more, lol!

[Pen]

Personally, In your place, I'd get the CD's and let son listen as much as he likes (now when he is liking the story of history) and leave off the activity book etc. aspects till a later age, or perhaps even till never. There could be both real learning of history going on just by listening to the stories, and also learning to love it.

 

And you could both be happy letting that happen without insisting on the parts that are causing distress.

[Farrar]

I did SOTW with my ungifted 5 yos, but I think I had different expectations. All I wanted was for them to think history was fun and interesting. At the time, I wasn't sure if they were getting much out of it. Now, two years later, they definitely can do things like identify Greek influences on buildings, know if a character was from Greek mythology, recognize Egyptian art, talk about Roman baths and Roman roads... And stuff like that was all I really wanted.

[jjins]

Shelving could upset him because he is bothered he has disappointed you. I have a son who finds himself very upset at the slightest possibility of disappointing anyone, especially mom or dad. I have learned to trick him:

 

I have this great new art program I want to try, but it is going to take a lot of time. I was thinking if we do not do this history stuff right now, we can do the great art lessons - they really look fun. We can come back to history later, there is lots of time to cover that!

 

Then later, when we take out history, I "notice" how much easier it is for the both of us now. Wow, I am really glad that we waited. We should have just waited in the first place, given us some time to grow in other areas.

 

Also, you may be battling his need to be CORRECT about the history, but in his own words. My son cannot stand making a mistake, he wants to get the right answers and really beats himself up for incorrect answers. The narration summary could be seen as wrong, or incomplete. I would suggest if you are working on it, for a while accept the answers as he gives them, then later that day or another day recover the information being sure to give him the information you were looking for. Lastly, again ask the questions and see if he can give you the information. I suspect he will be able to.

 

Best of luck regardless and do not forget what a benefit it is to him that you are are taking the time to homeschool him!

 

:grouphug:

[Heatherwith4]

Personally, In your place, I'd get the CD's and let son listen as much as he likes (now when he is liking the story of history) and leave off the activity book etc. aspects till a later age, or perhaps even till never. There could be both real learning of history going on just by listening to the stories, and also learning to love it.

 

And you could both be happy letting that happen without insisting on the parts that are causing distress.

:iagree:

[Homemama2]

he CAN retell / narrate and answer questions from a variety of sources fiction and nonfiction (and loves to do so, even when I'm not interested

 

Then I would just ask for a narration and not worry about the SOTW questions. Personally, I do this with my kids anyway just b/c I lean more towards CM and I like open ended narration. Sometimes they might not be able to answer some specific question the book asked, but they can talk about the chapter for 5 min. It's not that they aren't learning/retaining.

[ByGrace3]

Then I would just ask for a narration and not worry about the SOTW questions.

 

:iagree: We have started doing this lately. DD is a major perfectionist and the SOTW questions really stress her out for some reason, and she does not like to get them wrong, so she is unable to enjoy the story. Occasionally I would read the section and she would miss EVERY question, then I would be frustrated, she would be frustrated, and the whole attempt to have an engaging "exposure" to history was being lost. :tongue_smilie: I started asking for narrations only, was amazed at how much she could tell me back. Of course she missed all the "details" the AG asked for, but she got the general story and I am happy with that. The shift has helped tremendously.

[Grover]

Personally, In your place, I'd get the CD's and let son listen as much as he likes (now when he is liking the story of history) and leave off the activity book etc. aspects till a later age, or perhaps even till never. There could be both real learning of history going on just by listening to the stories, and also learning to love it.

 

And you could both be happy letting that happen without insisting on the parts that are causing distress.

This is what we did last year - we read all of them (1,2,3 and 4) together and he enjoyed it and then found out there was an activity book and he asked to do that this year. I think it was a mistake.

 

I did SOTW with my ungifted 5 yos, but I think I had different expectations. All I wanted was for them to think history was fun and interesting. At the time, I wasn't sure if they were getting much out of it. Now, two years later, they definitely can do things like identify Greek influences on buildings, know if a character was from Greek mythology, recognize Egyptian art, talk about Roman baths and Roman roads... And stuff like that was all I really wanted.

lol... we have the exact same expectations... he's 5 - I don't expect him to remember the lot, but it'd be nice if he could answer a simple recall question straight after reading

 

Shelving could upset him because he is bothered he has disappointed you. I have a son who finds himself very upset at the slightest possibility of disappointing anyone, especially mom or dad. I have learned to trick him:

 

I have this great new art program I want to try, but it is going to take a lot of time. I was thinking if we do not do this history stuff right now, we can do the great art lessons - they really look fun. We can come back to history later, there is lots of time to cover that!

 

Then later, when we take out history, I "notice" how much easier it is for the both of us now. Wow, I am really glad that we waited. We should have just waited in the first place, given us some time to grow in other areas.

 

Also, you may be battling his need to be CORRECT about the history, but in his own words. My son cannot stand making a mistake, he wants to get the right answers and really beats himself up for incorrect answers. The narration summary could be seen as wrong, or incomplete. I would suggest if you are working on it, for a while accept the answers as he gives them, then later that day or another day recover the information being sure to give him the information you were looking for. Lastly, again ask the questions and see if he can give you the information. I suspect he will be able to.

 

:grouphug:

 

hmmm good plan! We do do some of this, I think I'm perhaps wanting to get it 'done with' all at once but I need to let it be more a part of our day.

 

Then I would just ask for a narration and not worry about the SOTW questions. Personally, I do this with my kids anyway just b/c I lean more towards CM and I like open ended narration. Sometimes they might not be able to answer some specific question the book asked, but they can talk about the chapter for 5 min. It's not that they aren't learning/retaining.

 

I think you are right. I'm losing sight of the big picture aren't I? His narrations usually are just fine (today was, "In Ancient times the Egyptians carved hieroglyphics into stone. The Sumarians used cuneiform on clay tablets which were a bit faster to write on, but both were too heavy. The Egyptians learned how to make paper from reeds and they wrote on that which was more portable and took up less room but it didn't last as long as stone.") I will skip the questions, or perhaps use them as things for me to discuss rather than him to recall. <sigh> Maybe I could convince him to go and PLAY instead.

[MadsandLilysMom]

My daughter is 5 as well and we skip the narration and comprehension questions for now. I know she could do them, but at this age I would rather keep it light and fun. We read almost all of the supplementary books, do a lot of hands in activities and watch documentaries on Netflix. Se has developed a passion for history and she will often reread the extra books in her free time. We visited Busch Gardens in FL a few weeks ago and she was so excited to explore the Egyptian exhibit. I don't see anything wrong with just enjoying the story and saving the other stuff for when he is older.

 

Here is one of the extra hands on activities we have done that he might enjoy. This kit kept my girls busy for several hours last week.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Thames-Kosmos-Classic-Science-Archaeology/dp/B001ALLMX2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328490776&sr=8-1

Edited February 6, 2012 by MadsandLilysMom

[theguptas]

If you know he can narrate as you stated above, I wouldn't worry that he can't specifically do it for SOTW. If he enjoys what you do with SOTW, keep going. If you follow the WTM path, he'll be repeating SOTW again in a few years so he'll get the knowledge he needs. And, hopefully, remember that it was enjoyable to do with you.

[Pen]

This is what we did last year - we read all of them (1,2,3 and 4) together and he enjoyed it and then found out there was an activity book and he asked to do that this year. I think it was a mistake.

 

 

 

Ah. In that case, I would ask him what he thought the activity book would be and try to do what he is thinking (mummifying a chicken? making a model of the Nile River?) to the extent you are willing -- and / or read the questions first and then together listen to the book and search for the answers "aha, here it is, "'nomads"...anyway something that doesn't drive you both nuts. My son like task cards and maybe yours would prefer that too.

[EKS]

First, you might try doing the comprehension questions directly after reading each section. If he isn't able to answer a question, make him find the answer in the book.

 

(But you also might want to consider what you think is important in all of this. For me, a warm fuzzy feeling about history was more important than fact recall.)

 

Another approach would be to simply discuss the information with him and call it good. Make sure he is holding up his end of the discussion. And yet another approach is to periodically ask him to tell you about something more general. For example, after studying Egypt for a while say: "Tell me about the pyramids." Write down his answer. Make SOTW work for him.

[DarlaS]

I did SOTW with my ungifted 5 yos, but I think I had different expectations. All I wanted was for them to think history was fun and interesting. At the time, I wasn't sure if they were getting much out of it. Now, two years later, they definitely can do things like identify Greek influences on buildings, know if a character was from Greek mythology, recognize Egyptian art, talk about Roman baths and Roman roads... And stuff like that was all I really wanted.

 

That is an excellent goal for for history any 5 (6, 7, 8...) year old.

 

Also, the questions are meant to lead along any reluctant narrators. It doesn't sound like that's a problem. I'd skip them, or maybe just do one or two helping to phrase the answer as a complete sentence as much as necessary.

[jar7709]

Just a thought- how commited are you to sticking with SOTW? Not saying you should immediately get rid of it, but I'll share my experience.

Everyone I talked to when we started homeschooling was using it and it seemed like the only thing out there, but after trying it many different ways it just came down to that my gifted DS did not like it. At. All. Not the activities, not even just listening to me read it, or the cds. He loves history, though, so I think it was the tone of the writing that was off-putting to him, he felt like it was talking down to him. It took a while for me to catch on to this because as you probably know the asychrony of many gifteds leaves them with complex feelings but the lack of tools to express them. I finally figured it out when I realized that any suggestion from me that "he's not mature enough for this right now" resulted in even bigger disaster--it's because he feels more mature than the material, while at the same time I'm telling him he's not.

 

Anyway, that may have been an unhelpful digression, but we are now having much more luck using a variety of other sources, both encyclopedias and 'living books'. We are still moving through history in a generally chronological order like SOTW, but for me, keeping SOTW wasn't worth losing his interest in history or damaging our relationship.

 

I guess that was my long-winded way of agreeing with PPs that the curric you use should be working for you not the other way around. ;)

[nmoira]

he's 5, but profoundly gifted and accelerated in all areas.

Take advantage of his strengths and the extra time his gifts have bought you. :) Find something he loves and run with it... at five, it should be fun.

 

Going through the first time with my accelerated eldest, we added in mythology (full cycles), folk tales and historical fiction. We discussed what and when she wanted to discuss, but otherwise left it. The experience was tremendously rewarding for both of us. That said, we ended up spending over two years on medieval, and still had to wrench ourselves away from the period. :tongue_smilie: She did Early Modern and Modern as an accelerated self-study (mostly because there are fewer stories and tales to add in the close you come to the present, leaving just historical fiction). We've recently starting the second cycle and I'm adding in music and the history of science. I'm loosely planning our third pass to include integrated geography and geology.

[boscopup]

I'd drop the questions and just have him narrate. Is he not used to answering specific comprehension questions in other texts? Those questions are harder than a narration sometimes. You might start with a shorter passage to teach comprehension questions, then gradually move to SOTW comprehension questions.

 

FWIW, *I* sometimes have trouble with such questions. :tongue_smilie:

[Mommyfaithe]

he's 5, but profoundly gifted and accelerated in all areas.

 

I think what's bugging me the most is that he CAN retell / narrate and answer questions from a variety of sources fiction and nonfiction (and loves to do so, even when I'm not interested :001_huh:) but we seem to have a roadblock with SOTW. I'm struggling to work out whether it's an 'actual' block or an attitude issue or he's finding the conversational tone hard or what.

 

I'd like to just shelve it and try again in 6 months, but this upsets him even more, lol!

 

Bah! Dump it and come back to it in a couple of years. He is profoundly gifted, but still five. His maturity might not have caught up to his brain yet. Fill him with good stories and wonder, literature, poetry....stories of great men and women, that can be history. SOTW can wait acres years until he has pegs to hang that stuff on.

 

Faithe

[MeganW]

We haven't gotten to SOTW yet, but we listen to TONS of audiobooks together in the car. I stop the audio every other sentence and ask a question to be sure they are getting it. Sometimes the question is simple vocab or comprehension, sometimes more of a "what do you think it was like/is going to happen?". That way any kid who is having trouble following gets caught up before they are too lost and tune out.

 

I try it make it less of a quiz and more of a "what's going on in Mommy's head as she listens to a story" kind of thing. My kids fight to answer my questions, so it must not be too stressful for them! :)

 

We usually go through each audio once with me stopping it every few seconds for summarizing, then we listen to it once straight through with no stopping unless someone asks a question.

[mystika1]

I am going to be honest and tell you that my dd would glaze over completely for SOTW at age 5 and even 6 and 7. She was not interested at all. Some said to continue with it anyway for exposure...I said "why waste my breath?" At 5...it was all about Barbie, Princess Ariel or dinosaurs. My dd is now 9 and she loves SOTW. She actually told me this past week, "Mom, I don't know why, but the first few times you tried to read this, I didn't want to hear anything about Ancient Egypt or any of that stuff. Now I love it and want to know it all!"

 

She retains so much of it now. The other day, my aunt was talking about how someone got caught robbing the grocery store across the street and my dd replied, "In Ancient Egypt, anyone caught stealing would get their fingers cut off."

 

If they are glazed over, they won't miss it at all. If you shelve it and the child asks about it, or, if you are set on doing it, then maybe add it back as a bedtime story. (when they are calm and ready to listen to anything.):D My dd would listen to just about anything to stay up for a few more minutes.

 

Penny

Edited February 6, 2012 by mystika1

[laughing lioness]

Personally, In your place, I'd get the CD's and let son listen as much as he likes (now when he is liking the story of history) and leave off the activity book etc. aspects till a later age, or perhaps even till never. There could be both real learning of history going on just by listening to the stories, and also learning to love it.

 

And you could both be happy letting that happen without insisting on the parts that are causing distress.

 

:iagree:Ayup. 'Specially for a 5 yo, no matter how gifted. We had a house fire 2 years ago. Now 9 and 12 yo's listened to SOTW for big chunks of school for over a year (add in 2 funerals= we were otherwise occupied). They now have big chuncks of SOTW and memorized. No tears, no sweat, no activities. They LOVE the CD's and choose to listen to them "for fun" even now.

[Rivka]

His narrations usually are just fine (today was, "In Ancient times the Egyptians carved hieroglyphics into stone. The Sumarians used cuneiform on clay tablets which were a bit faster to write on, but both were too heavy. The Egyptians learned how to make paper from reeds and they wrote on that which was more portable and took up less room but it didn't last as long as stone.") I will skip the questions, or perhaps use them as things for me to discuss rather than him to recall. <sigh> Maybe I could convince him to go and PLAY instead.

 

If his narrations are this good, you don't need the comprehension questions. I've never used them with my daughter, who started SOTW at 5 and loved it from the start.

 

I suggest reading the chapters, doing the mapwork, having him give narrations, acting out the stories with toys or as a drama (Julie at Creekside Learning does this, and it's so awesome) and adding in as many great stories and legends as you can possibly squeeze in. Do some of the fun projects. Focus on the grand sweep of the stories and cultures, not the details.

 

We made simple costumes for some of the time periods. A white pillowcase with holes for the arms and head makes a great tunic for Greece and Rome.

 

For ancient Egypt we had a set of hieroglyphic stamps. I used them to write secret messages, posted the messages in different hard-to-find places on the walls of a room, and sent her in with a flashlight to be an archaeologist "excavating a tomb." She had to find the samples of writing and translate them to find out whose tomb it was.

 

Kingfisher's Everyday Life in the Ancient World is an amazing companion to SOTW for curious kids. It's written in the style of a travel guidebook, but for ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, the Aztecs, and the Incas. Usborne has some See Inside...books (like See Inside Ancient Egypt) that have a lot of informational detail in a lift-the-flap format. He might pick up a lot more understanding from books like that.

[Grover]

Just a thought- how commited are you to sticking with SOTW? Not saying you should immediately get rid of it, but I'll share my experience.

Everyone I talked to when we started homeschooling was using it and it seemed like the only thing out there, but after trying it many different ways it just came down to that my gifted DS did not like it. At. All. Not the activities, not even just listening to me read it, or the cds. He loves history, though, so I think it was the tone of the writing that was off-putting to him, he felt like it was talking down to him.

 

thank you - I think this may be some of it, except I think he grew out of it sometime between our first reading last year (which he loved and goes on and on about) and starting to "study" it this year. Problem is, I have next to no history myself (and not much more interest TBH) and I really do need hand holding.

 

I'd drop the questions and just have him narrate. Is he not used to answering specific comprehension questions in other texts? Those questions are harder than a narration sometimes. You might start with a shorter passage to teach comprehension questions, then gradually move to SOTW comprehension questions.

 

He has done questions like this for other books, but again, that was last year and I think he may have grown out of it. I've stopped and though about this today and really looked hard at what's going on. I suspect I missed the boat on using SOTW in any kind of depth.

 

If his narrations are this good, you don't need the comprehension questions. I've never used them with my daughter, who started SOTW at 5 and loved it from the start.

 

I suggest reading the chapters, doing the mapwork, having him give narrations, acting out the stories with toys or as a drama (Julie at Creekside Learning does this, and it's so awesome) and adding in as many great stories and legends as you can possibly squeeze in. Do some of the fun projects. Focus on the grand sweep of the stories and cultures, not the details.

 

We made simple costumes for some of the time periods. A white pillowcase with holes for the arms and head makes a great tunic for Greece and Rome.

 

For ancient Egypt we had a set of hieroglyphic stamps. I used them to write secret messages, posted the messages in different hard-to-find places on the walls of a room, and sent her in with a flashlight to be an archaeologist "excavating a tomb." She had to find the samples of writing and translate them to find out whose tomb it was.

 

Kingfisher's Everyday Life in the Ancient World is an amazing companion to SOTW for curious kids. It's written in the style of a travel guidebook, but for ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, the Aztecs, and the Incas. Usborne has some See Inside...books (like See Inside Ancient Egypt) that have a lot of informational detail in a lift-the-flap format. He might pick up a lot more understanding from books like that.

 

thank you for these suggestions. While *I* would love them, unfortunately he's not really an activities kind of kid. He likes doing the map work, and he likes the narrations themselves, and putting the events into our book of ages. I think I'll keep reading with him and just do those parts, skip the questions and encourage him to choose activities that interest him (he liked building the nile - it's a 3D map, lol!) and see how it goes.

 

Thank you for your input, everyone, I really do appreciate it.

[Hedgehogs4]

nm

[Pen]

...Problem is, I have next to no history myself (and not much more interest TBH) and I really do need hand holding.

 

 

 

 

Then I have a few more thoughts on this. 1) Let him teach you ...my son used to listen to the CD of SOTW in one room and come in to where I would be working and tell me what was interesting--not me asking for a narration, but a spontaneous outpouring of "wow, this is something you need to know about..."--and if something like that can happen, let yourself get interested. It is hard to convey a deep love of a subject when one hasn't got that. But if you can learn to love a subject that has not previously interested you, that will be a great thing to then be able to pass on as itself an important skill.

 

2) Use other sources that may get you as well as him interested, such as BBC or National Geographic or even feature films (favorites here include, Gandhi, Kenneth Branagh's Henry V, The Story of India (really interesting stuff about Ashoka trying to establish peace in the world), The Incredible Human Journey, Civilization (not the art thing, but one that follows from Nomadic life to the beginning of writing in Sumer--the one on art is too much just "talking heads" for my son, but this other one I mean was a fictionalization of what life might have been like and kept his attention) possibly I have the title wrong. And think about why things were important and how they made the present...

 

3) Listen carefully to what he does say when/if he answers a question (though I'm not sure you should actually keep asking them in these circumstances). It may be more important than what the answer is "supposed to be". Example--I asked a question about nomads and was hoping to hear the buzzwords of "hunter gatherers" in the answer. I didn't hear that. But what I did hear told me that the idea of nomadic life was quite well grasped, probably more so than by someone who could simply parrot back the expected buzzwords.

 

4) Since there must be subjects that interest you more than history look into the history of those subjects. (music or science or farming or peace or a type of animal or ... whatever you feel interested in, look into its history, find something that interests you about its history.)

 

5) Consider Magic Tree House and its Fact Trackers. Let him read to you, assuming his reading is up to that level, which it seems from what you write that it would be. And try to get interested in what you are hearing.

[Grover]

Then I have a few more thoughts on this. 1) Let him teach you ...my son used to listen to the CD of SOTW in one room and come in to where I would be working and tell me what was interesting--not me asking for a narration, but a spontaneous outpouring of "wow, this is something you need to know about..."--and if something like that can happen, let yourself get interested. It is hard to convey a deep love of a subject when one hasn't got that. But if you can learn to love a subject that has not previously interested you, that will be a great thing to then be able to pass on as itself an important skill.

you are so right. This is what he was like with the books last year. And with Horrible Histories too. I've been going about this the wrong way, haven't I. Ugh.

2) Use other sources that may get you as well as him interested, such as BBC or National Geographic or even feature films (favorites here include, Gandhi, Kenneth Branagh's Henry V, The Story of India (really interesting stuff about Ashoka trying to establish peace in the world), The Incredible Human Journey, Civilization (not the art thing, but one that follows from Nomadic life to the beginning of writing in Sumer--the one on art is too much just "talking heads" for my son, but this other one I mean was a fictionalization of what life might have been like and kept his attention) possibly I have the title wrong. And think about why things were important and how they made the present...

thanks, I will look them out, and look for some more library books too. He loves horrible histories, so I'll look at encouraging him to share those.

3) Listen carefully to what he does say when/if he answers a question (though I'm not sure you should actually keep asking them in these circumstances). It may be more important than what the answer is "supposed to be". Example--I asked a question about nomads and was hoping to hear the buzzwords of "hunter gatherers" in the answer. I didn't hear that. But what I did hear told me that the idea of nomadic life was quite well grasped, probably more so than by someone who could simply parrot back the expected buzzwords.

Sadly there generally is no answer - just a blank look. But as someone pointed out above, I think this is "afraid of not being completely right" rather than not knowing. We had a talk at bed time tonight and he wants to read the stories together and do the maps and timeline. Mummy will listen.

 

5) Consider Magic Tree House and its Fact Trackers. Let him read to you, assuming his reading is up to that level, which it seems from what you write that it would be.

 

He loved Magic Tree House but won't read them now (says they're baby books). I might fish them out again though, and look at the fact trackers. We could possibly use them in our writing as another approach too.

 

Thanks for these ideas. I'm redirecting my approach from now on - gentler and lighter - I should know by now that he'll go as deep as he needs to when he's interested.