Caribbean Queen Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 This is a spin-off of the legalism thread. Once we believe Jesus is Christ, do we have to take certain action, or abstain from certain action to be in right standing with God? Do Christians have to do X and abstain from doing Y or else they won't get into heaven? We have thought of a lot of false Xs and Ys, but do you believe there are any true ones? If so, name a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Doing certain things will not save you. However, we are expected to live in such as way that our lives show the presence of God within us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustybug Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Doing certain things will not save you. However, we are expected to live in such as way that our lives show the presence of God within us. :iagree:Salvation is by faith, not works, but we will have to answer for the things that we do when it is all said and done and the bible says that if we love Jesus, we will obey His commands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caribbean Queen Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Doing certain things will not save you. However, we are expected to live in such as way that our lives show the presence of God within us. :iagree:Salvation is by faith, not works, but we will have to answer for the things that we do when it is all said and done and the bible says that if we love Jesus, we will obey His commands. If we don't meet His expectations and don't obey his commands, will be still be right with God and get into heaven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca VA Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The Bible says we'll be known by our fruit (the positive changes in us). We should all show a radical change of focus after salvation -- we should be trying to please the Lord, to do His will, to further His kingdom. If no one can see changes in us, it's very possible that true salvation never happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustybug Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 If we don't meet His expectations and don't obey his commands, will be still be right with God and get into heaven? The Bible teaches that it is impossible for us to follow ALL of God's commands/meet all of his expectations on our own. No one can/could do it. It shows us how much we need God. That's why Jesus came to take the burden of meeting those expectations for us. When Jesus died on the cross, he took all the punishment for the sins of the people who believe in Him. So, when someone accepts Jesus as their Savior, God doesn't "see" their imperfections anymore, but the blood of His Son washed over them. We have the Holy Spirit to guide and convict us when we are going astray and it is best to heed that, but God also knows that we are absolutely incapable of following every law/rule that He has laid out without Him. My belief is that if we truly accept Jesus as our Savior and don't just say the words without truly believing them in our hearts, that we will go to Heaven, regardless of our actions. This does not mean that we will not answer to Him for the poor choices we made in our lives/sins we have committed, it just means we will spend eternity with Him, rather than in Hell like those who do not believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustybug Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The Bible says we'll be known by our fruit (the positive changes in us). We should all show a radical change of focus after salvation -- we should be trying to please the Lord, to do His will, to further His kingdom. If no one can see changes in us, it's very possible that true salvation never happened. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayfaring Stranger Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Salvation comes from God. All we can do is become more like Christ. The Lord's Prayer has a line that says "Forgive us our trespasses (debts, sins) as we forgive those who trespass (have debts, sin) against us". I really think this may be a standard that we will be held to, especially if we tell God to hold us to that standard every time we say the Lord's Prayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 If we don't meet His expectations and don't obey his commands, will be still be right with God and get into heaven? Yes. Salvation is all God - *He* forgives sins, *He* creates faith, *He* keeps us in faith. Even our belief in Christ is a *fruit* of faith, not the *cause* of faith. God is bigger than our sins, and that goes for sins committed after being saved, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The Bible teaches that it is impossible for us to follow ALL of God's commands/meet all of his expectations on our own. No one can/could do it. It shows us how much we need God. That's why Jesus came to take the burden of meeting those expectations for us. When Jesus died on the cross, he took all the punishment for the sins of the people who believe in Him. So, when someone accepts Jesus as their Savior, God doesn't "see" their imperfections anymore, but the blood of His Son washed over them. We have the Holy Spirit to guide and convict us when we are going astray and it is best to heed that, but God also knows that we are absolutely incapable of following every law/rule that He has laid out without Him. My belief is that if we truly accept Jesus as our Savior and don't just say the words without truly believing them in our hearts, that we will go to Heaven, regardless of our actions. This does not mean that we will not answer to Him for the poor choices we made in our lives/sins we have committed, it just means we will spend eternity with Him, rather than in Hell like those who do not believe. The thing is, accepting Jesus is a work, and truly believing in Him is a work. Neither is the *cause* of faith, but the *fruit* of faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Doing certain things will not save you. However, we are expected to live in such as way that our lives show the presence of God within us. I agree. If we don't meet His expectations and don't obey his commands, will be still be right with God and get into heaven? Getting into heaven, yes. Perfectly right with God might be another question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Salvation comes from God. All we can do is become more like Christ. The Lord's Prayer has a line that says "Forgive us our trespasses (debts, sins) as we forgive those who trespass (have debts, sin) against us". I really think this may be a standard that we will be held to, especially if we tell God to hold us to that standard every time we say the Lord's Prayer. Sanctification - becoming more Christlike - is from God, too. And in the Lord's Prayer, we are praying for *God* to change us - both by forgiving our sins, and enabling us to forgive others' sins. Of course we will fall short of the standard - we're fallen people in a fallen world. Praise be to God that His grace is sufficient for us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The Bible says we'll be known by our fruit (the positive changes in us). We should all show a radical change of focus after salvation -- we should be trying to please the Lord, to do His will, to further His kingdom. If no one can see changes in us, it's very possible that true salvation never happened. Sorry, but I *hate* this line of thinking. We should look to *Jesus* for proof of salvation, not ourselves and our works. We are saved because of *Jesus*, and when we are doubting our faith, we need to look to *Jesus*. The Gospel is for Christians, too. Just as we are not saved by our works, we do not remain saved by our works, and our works are not proof of our salvation. Not following God's commands is a sin, sure enough, and the only solution is Christ. Don't measure up after salvation? Neither did Paul - oh wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this bondage of sin? And the answer - thanks be to Christ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I agree. Getting into heaven, yes. Perfectly right with God might be another question. But no one gets into heaven without being right with God. Our broken relationship with God is either restored or it isn't - you can't be "kinda right" with God any more than you can be kinda pregnant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Okie Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The Bible, obviously, speaks a lot about salvation. Whether or not you believe the Bible is the immutable word of God, I suppose, is a key decision one must make. If you believe that it is, trust what the Bible says about what saves us and will put us in His presence.... Mercy (Titus 3:5) Grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) Christ (1 Timothy 1:15) The Gospel (Romans 1:16-17) Faith/Belief (Mark 16:15-16) Repentance (II Corinthians 7:10) Confession (Romans 10:9-10) Baptism (1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16) Good works (James 2:14-24) Hope (Romans 8:24) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The scriptures talk about how if we have faith alive, we'll have works and fruits also. Seriously, Satan and his crew *believe* in Jesus. They *know* who he is. It takes more than simple belief. But you can't work your way to Heaven (or paradise or whatever) either. I think the key would be LOVE which is an action word, not a passive feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 But no one gets into heaven without being right with God. Our broken relationship with God is either restored or it isn't - you can't be "kinda right" with God any more than you can be kinda pregnant. You get into heaven by believing in Christ as your savior. But, The Bible also talks about heavenly rewards. How would you describe that? As some people being more right than others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The Bible, obviously, speaks a lot about salvation. Whether or not you believe the Bible is the immutable word of God, I suppose, is a key decision one must make. If you believe that it is, trust what the Bible says about what saves us and will put us in His presence.... Mercy (Titus 3:5) Grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) Christ (1 Timothy 1:15) The Gospel (Romans 1:16-17) Faith/Belief (Mark 16:15-16) Repentance (II Corinthians 7:10) Confession (Romans 10:9-10) Baptism (1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16) Good works (James 2:14-24) Hope (Romans 8:24) The Gospel is the good news that God has had mercy upon us sinners, who cannot save ourselves, and through baptism (and His Word and communion) gives us His grace, which connects us to Christ's death and resurrection, forgives our sins, and creates faith. In response, we are able, through the Holy Spirit, to do good works, including confessing our sins and repenting of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onceuponatime Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Doing certain things will not save you. However, we are expected to live in such as way that our lives show the presence of God within us. :iagree: Specifically, I believe this means we must practice compassion and brotherly love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 You get into heaven by believing in Christ as your savior. But, The Bible also talks about heavenly rewards. How would you describe that? As some people being more right than others? You get into heaven by God saving you - forgiving sins, creating and maintaining faith - and as a result, as a fruit of that faith God worked in you, you are able to believe in Jesus. But we are incapable of believing in Jesus without having saving faith in the first place. Honestly, I have no idea what heavenly rewards look like. But it's not a case of all Christians are saved, but some are more saved than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 You get into heaven by God saving you - forgiving sins, creating and maintaining faith - and as a result, as a fruit of that faith God worked in you, you are able to believe in Jesus. But we are incapable of believing in Jesus without having saving faith in the first place. Honestly, I have no idea what heavenly rewards look like. But it's not a case of all Christians are saved, but some are more saved than others. I would never suggest such a thing, lol! But, heavenly rewards are addressed in The Bible. I don't know that I completely agree with this article, but this is sort of what I'm talking about. http://www.bible-knowledge.com/rewards-in-heaven/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The scriptures talk about how if we have faith alive, we'll have works and fruits also. Seriously, Satan and his crew *believe* in Jesus. They *know* who he is. It takes more than simple belief. But you can't work your way to Heaven (or paradise or whatever) either. I think the key would be LOVE which is an action word, not a passive feeling. Satan doesn't believe in Jesus, he knows that Jesus exists and can save us. And yes, intellectual knowledge doesn't save. But while God saves us out of His love, love on our part is a response to salvation and a fruit of faith. If love and showing love is *necessary* for maintaining salvation, then you *are* saying you work your way to heaven, at least in part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) Sometimes the way a question is framed can get us thinking along a wrong track. I think this is that kind of question. It is perhaps asking a technical question, but the answer could be misleading. Belief in Jesus saves, but the relationship of belief and life lived isn't about "What else do we have to do or refrain from doing?" The answer in one way is nothing. It's been done. It is finished. That's the technical theological side of the answer. But the result of belief isn't "nothing" in terms of what the life that follows looks like. The practical implication isn't: Get the right answers on the multiple choice theology test and then live as though none of it is true. There are no hypotheticals. I think that's where the rub is. Truly, we need to do nothing more. Practically, true faith results in a certain kind of life, but not because it adds to what Jesus did. It's a response to God's salvation. Perhaps it's better to be ask: "What does a life look like lived as a faith response to this God who created me and loves me, to this Jesus who died to save me, to this Spirit who lives within me?" The point isn't "getting into heaven." Jesus is not a means to an end. John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." Eternal life starts now, in knowing Jesus. What happens after we die is a continuation of the relationship that begins now. If we know Jesus, if we deeply comprehend, appreciate, receive what he has done for us, if we experience his love, doesn't it follow that we follow him ? Following includes knowing that we will still sin, but being ready to confess and repent when we do, seeking what he wants us to do, receiving his love, returning his love. It may be another question to ask: does someone who says they believe but lives their life willy-nilly without any regard for what Jesus would want have any assurance that they actually believe? James indicates that our belief is not simple cognitive assent to a set of facts: even the demons believe...and tremble. True faith produces a certain kind of life. So if the certain kind of life isn't there, it's a sign that we need to examine ourselves and see if we are in the faith. Some people, by nature of early environment, neurological differences,etc. may love Jesus with all their hearts, but stumble around more than someone who has great genes and came from a loving family and who doesn't love him at all. It's not another person's to judge, but God's. It is our individual responsibility to take a look and see if our life lines up--not out of wanting to check things off a list, but out of love for the one who first loved us. Does love ask such questions: how much is enough? Love isn't quantifiable. Edited January 18, 2012 by Laurie4b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I would never suggest such a thing, lol! But, heavenly rewards are addressed in The Bible. I don't know that I completely agree with this article, but this is sort of what I'm talking about.http://www.bible-knowledge.com/rewards-in-heaven/ Yeah, but saying that all Christians are saved in a going to heaven way, but aren't necessarily right with God is effectively saying that there are tiers of Christians. I really don't know how the Biblical idea of treasures in heaven plays out (though that article rubs me completely the wrong way - wow, feel the legalism and works righteousness) but it certainly doesn't mean that people who did lots of good works are more right with God than people who do less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Sometimes the way a question is framed can get us thinking along a wrong track. I think this is that kind of question. It is perhaps asking a technical question, but the answer could be misleading. Belief in Jesus saves, but the relationship of belief and life lived isn't about "What else do we have to do or refrain from doing?" The answer in one way is nothing. That's the technical theological side of the answer. But the practical implication isn't: Get the right answers on the multiple choice theology test and then live as though none of it is true. Be a test case. And perhaps what is better to be asked is "What does a life look like lived as a faith response to this God who created me and loves me, to this Jesus who died to save me, to this Spirit who lives within me?" The point isn't "getting into heaven." Jesus is not a means to an end. John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." Eternal life starts now, in knowing Jesus. What happens after we die is a continuation of the relationship that begins now. If we know Jesus, if we deeply comprehend, appreciate, receive what he has done for us, if we experience his love, doesn't it follow that we follow him ? Following includes knowing that we will still sin, but being ready to confess and repent when we do, seeking what he wants us to do, receiving his love, returning his love. Does love ask such questions: how much is enough? It may be another question to ask: does someone who says they believe but lives their life willy-nilly without any regard for what Jesus would want have any assurance that they actually believe? James indicates that our belief is not simple cognitive assent to a set of facts: even the demons believe...and tremble. True faith produces a certain kind of life. So if the certain kind of life isn't there, it's a sign that we need to examine ourselves and see if we are in the faith. Some people, by nature of early environment, neurological differences,etc. may love Jesus with all their hearts, but stumble around more than someone who has great genes and came from a loving family and who doesn't love him at all. It's not another person's to judge, but God's. It is our individual responsibility to take a look and see if our life lines up--not out of wanting to check things off a list, but out of love for the one who first loved us. Love isn't quantifiable. I agree with a lot of this, but not the bolded. If we aren't living as God would have us, we should NOT under any circumstances look to ourselves for signs of true faith. *We*, and our actions, are not the source of faith, and looking to them for proof leads to self-righteousness or despair. Rather, we should look to the author and perfecter of our faith, the One who saved us in the first place, for help. The only help for sin is Jesus - and that goes for Christians, too. If we feel like are failing in our Christian walk, the answer is *not* do more, try harder, but Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Yeah, but saying that all Christians are saved in a going to heaven way, but aren't necessarily right with God is effectively saying that there are tiers of Christians. I really don't know how the Biblical idea of treasures in heaven plays out (though that article rubs me completely the wrong way - wow, feel the legalism and works righteousness) but it certainly doesn't mean that people who did lots of good works are more right with God than people who do less. Hm. I think you are taking the "more right with God" to mean something like "more beloved by God" or "more cherished by God," and I do not believe that to be true. That is not what I am saying at all. I believe that when I am fully sanctified in heaven, then I will understand. Right now, I only have an earthly understanding and am still trapped in the flesh. God will accept us just as we are. But, I don't think you could say that God has no further expectations of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caribbean Queen Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 My belief is that if we truly accept Jesus as our Savior and don't just say the words without truly believing them in our hearts, that we will go to Heaven, regardless of our actions. How do you interpret verses which say "If you do XYZ you won't enter the kingdom of heaven? For instance: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neighter fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effefeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor theives, nor covetours, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:9-10 The Bible says we'll be known by our fruit (the positive changes in us). We should all show a radical change of focus after salvation -- we should be trying to please the Lord, to do His will, to further His kingdom. If no one can see changes in us, it's very possible that true salvation never happened. I think I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) Whenever I see questions like this I think of the Thief who was cruicified with Christ. There really was not a lot else he could do...;) On the other hand, many Christian's have a concept of Purgatory, which can aid in this concept. I am definitely not well versed enough to discuss that, but I have found that it is something that brings me comfort. :001_smile: CQ, the verse you posted right before this post is very interesting in light of the thief. Maybe, what is needed is repentance. Edited January 18, 2012 by simka2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 How do you interpret verses which say "If you do XYZ you won't enter the kingdom of heaven? For instance: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neighter fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effefeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor theives, nor covetours, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:9-10 But, that is sort of the opposite from your original question. And I would say that in this verse, those things are symptoms of unrighteousness. They are not so much the reason as they are evidence that one has not fully accepted Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayfaring Stranger Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Sanctification - becoming more Christlike - is from God, too. And in the Lord's Prayer, we are praying for *God* to change us - both by forgiving our sins, and enabling us to forgive others' sins. Of course we will fall short of the standard - we're fallen people in a fallen world. Praise be to God that His grace is sufficient for us! Of course becoming like Christ is from God (that is why he came and showed us what it looked like) but we have free will and we play a big part in becoming like Christ. The Lord's Prayer is Matthew 6:9-13. The very next two verses (Matthew 6:14-15) say "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." From the context it looks like our pray is to have God forgive us in the same way we forgive others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustybug Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Hm. I think you are taking the "more right with God" to mean something like "more beloved by God" or "more cherished by God," and I do not believe that to be true. That is not what I am saying at all. I believe that when I am fully sanctified in heaven, then I will understand. Right now, I only have an earthly understanding and am still trapped in the flesh. God will accept us just as we are. But, I don't think you could say that God has no further expectations of us. :iagree: How do you interpret verses which say "If you do XYZ you won't enter the kingdom of heaven? For instance: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neighter fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effefeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor theives, nor covetours, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:9-10 But, that is sort of the opposite from your original question. And I would say that in this verse, those things are symptoms of unrighteousness. They are not so much the reason as they are evidence that one has not fully accepted Christ. :iagree: with Mrs. Mungo. I interpret that verse as speaking of the "unrighteous" which means the unsaved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Of course becoming like Christ is from God (that is why he came and showed us what it looked like) but we have free will and we play a big part in becoming like Christ. The Lord's Prayer is Matthew 6:9-13. The very next two verses (Matthew 6:14-15) say "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." From the context it looks like our pray is to have God forgive us in the same way we forgive others. I take it the exact opposite, myself - that we are praying that God would help us forgive others the way that He forgives us. Because if forgives others is necessary for salvation, it can only be done by God. And wrt the free will issue, I don't have as high a view as some. Before we are saved, our will is bound to sin, and we can do nothing *but* sin (we have our choice of sin, though, I suppose ;)). And after we are saved, our will is bound to God - we are free to do what we were created to do, be in relationship with God, do His will. But as long as we live in this fallen world, we are still bound to sin, do things we don't want to do, don't do the things we want to do. I'm not sure how much control *we* - as opposed to God - have on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caribbean Queen Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Once we believe Jesus is Christ, do we have to take certain action, or abstain from certain action to be in right standing with God? How do you interpret verses which say "If you do XYZ you won't enter the kingdom of heaven? But, that is sort of the opposite from your original question. And I would say that in this verse, those things are symptoms of unrighteousness. They are not so much the reason as they are evidence that one has not fully accepted Christ. I didn't say that sin is a reason that people don't accept Christ. I want to know if people think they need to do something, or not do something after accepting Christ to be right with God and go to heaven. I have attended churches that taught "Once saved always saved. You can sin, have no fruit of the spirt, and no good works and still be a Christian and get to heaven. Maybe you won't have the best heavenly rewards, but you'll get into heaven." I have attended another church which teaches that a God requires us to obey Him. If you are a Christian who does not obey the Lord, you better repent and start obeying Him or else you will not get in heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXMomof4 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 All of those things listed are things that show you are putting yourself an your desires before God. I would be choosing to behave in a way for instant gratification rather than avoiding something that is harmful to me or others. When I'm coveting something I am not looking at that person to whom the item belongs with the eyes of God, but with my selfishnesss. When I'm extorting something from someone, I'm thinking entirely about my own gain and pleasure, not the other person involved. I saw a graphic once that had GOD at the top and SELF at the bottom. I'm on a circle in the middle. Ideally, my eyes would be on God at all times and I'd be heading straight to him. In reality I turn to self as often as not and end up running in a circle - realizing my goal has changed from God gratification to self-gratification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Hm. I think you are taking the "more right with God" to mean something like "more beloved by God" or "more cherished by God," and I do not believe that to be true. That is not what I am saying at all. I believe that when I am fully sanctified in heaven, then I will understand. Right now, I only have an earthly understanding and am still trapped in the flesh. God will accept us just as we are. But, I don't think you could say that God has no further expectations of us. Agree with the bolded. WRT God's expectations of us, they are what they've always been - be perfect. And certainly once our relationship with God is restored, we are free *to do His will* - we *want* to do His will. But so long as we are in this fallen world, we will fall short. And Christ's death covers all our imperfections - both before and after God restored our relationship. We obey God out of love, in joyful response to being saved - *not* because we "have to". We *get to* :). But, that is sort of the opposite from your original question. And I would say that in this verse, those things are symptoms of unrighteousness. They are not so much the reason as they are evidence that one has not fully accepted Christ. Hey, I agree with you on something :tongue_smilie:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 We are directed to be baptized in water "for the forgiveness of sins." We are directed to live according to God's laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I didn't say that sin is a reason that people don't accept Christ. I want to know if people think they need to do something, or not do something after accepting Christ to be right with God and go to heaven. I have attended churches that taught "Once saved always saved. You can sin, have no fruit of the spirt, and no good works and still be a Christian and get to heaven. Maybe you won't have the best heavenly rewards, but you'll get into heaven." I have attended another church which teaches that a God requires us to obey Him. If you are a Christian who does not obey the Lord, you better repent and start obeying Him or else you will not get in heaven. I will try to say it another way: I do not believe you need to do anything else to be saved. I do believe continuing to commit certain sins might be indicative that you are not actually saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The thing is, accepting Jesus is a work, and truly believing in Him is a work. Neither is the *cause* of faith, but the *fruit* of faith.John 628Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caribbean Queen Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 :iagree: with Mrs. Mungo. I interpret that verse as speaking of the "unrighteous" which means the unsaved. Oh, I see what you are thinking. What do you think about the idea that your faith must be strong enough to make you do good works, and God will not let people who lack good works get into heaven? How do you interpet "Faith without works is dead" and "we are justified by works, and not faith only" (James 2:210 +24) Also, how do you interpret the parable of the sheep and goats in which the ones who did good deeds like feeding and clothing and visiting needy people got into the kindgom, but the ones without the good works got punished (Matthew 25:31-46) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLG Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Salvation comes from God. All we can do is become more like Christ. The Lord's Prayer has a line that says "Forgive us our trespasses (debts, sins) as we forgive those who trespass (have debts, sin) against us". I really think this may be a standard that we will be held to, especially if we tell God to hold us to that standard every time we say the Lord's Prayer. Well said, FathertoPearl! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I agree with a lot of this, but not the bolded. If we aren't living as God would have us, we should NOT under any circumstances look to ourselves for signs of true faith. *We*, and our actions, are not the source of faith, and looking to them for proof leads to self-righteousness or despair. Rather, we should look to the author and perfecter of our faith, the One who saved us in the first place, for help. The only help for sin is Jesus - and that goes for Christians, too. If we feel like are failing in our Christian walk, the answer is *not* do more, try harder, but Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. This is what I meant: 2 Cor. 13:5 5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? (NIV) 5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (KJV) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I didn't say that sin is a reason that people don't accept Christ. I want to know if people think they need to do something, or not do something after accepting Christ to be right with God and go to heaven. I have attended churches that taught "Once saved always saved. You can sin, have no fruit of the spirt, and no good works and still be a Christian and get to heaven. Maybe you won't have the best heavenly rewards, but you'll get into heaven." I have attended another church which teaches that a God requires us to obey Him. If you are a Christian who does not obey the Lord, you better repent and start obeying Him or else you will not get in heaven. IMO, they're both flawed teachings (and both teach works righteousness). We can't accept Christ unless and until He accepts us first. Our accepting Christ, inviting Jesus into our heart, is a *response* to salvation, not the cause of it. And, salvation isn't "fire insurance" - salvation is God restoring our broken relationship, so we can be in fellowship with Him. We are now free to be who we are meant to be, free to do God's will - we don't *want* to be in sin anymore. But that leads to the other side - that our salvation rests on doing God's will, than anyone who isn't sufficiently righteous (seeming) must not be saved, must not be right with God. That puts the focus on our works, not Christ and *His* work. We are saved by faith, not works - and that means maintaining our faith is likewise not based on works. God creates faith, God sustains faith - it's all God. It's very true that if our life does not show much fruit, that is a concern. But the answer to sin is, as always, *Christ* and *His* work. If you feel convicted of sin, feel like you aren't obeying God like you ought, then *turn to Christ*. "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 This is what I meant: 2 Cor. 13:5 5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? (NIV) 5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (KJV) Yeah, but when you feel like you might be failing the test, the answer isn't "oh crap, I better work harder or I'm not saved", or "oh crap, I must not be saved," but, "Oh Jesus, save me." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Once we believe Jesus is Christ, do we have to take certain action, or abstain from certain action to be in right standing with God?Romans 10:9-13 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.†For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.†Galatians 3:1-3 Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ’s death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross. Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ. How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? Galatians 5:1,4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) IMO, they're both flawed teachings (and both teach works righteousness). We can't accept Christ unless and until He accepts us first. Our accepting Christ, inviting Jesus into our heart, is a *response* to salvation, not the cause of it. And, salvation isn't "fire insurance" - salvation is God restoring our broken relationship, so we can be in fellowship with Him. We are now free to be who we are meant to be, free to do God's will - we don't *want* to be in sin anymore. But that leads to the other side - that our salvation rests on doing God's will, than anyone who isn't sufficiently righteous (seeming) must not be saved, must not be right with God. That puts the focus on our works, not Christ and *His* work. We are saved by faith, not works - and that means maintaining our faith is likewise not based on works. God creates faith, God sustains faith - it's all God. It's very true that if our life does not show much fruit, that is a concern. But the answer to sin is, as always, *Christ* and *His* work. If you feel convicted of sin, feel like you aren't obeying God like you ought, then *turn to Christ*. "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" :grouphug::iagree: http://wolfmueller.wordpress.com/2011/10/30/oh-yeah-jesus-died-a-summary-of-reformation-teaching/So the church wants to sell indulgences, that is, it wants to apply the merits of the saints to those suffering for their venial sins in purgatory. Sounds good, until you remember, “Oh yeah, Jesus died.” There is no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Or we might hear the teaching that through the infusion of sacramental merit we are able to do good works to please God. Sounds good, until you remember, “Oh yeah, Jesus died.” If He died for me, I must not be good enough to please Him. 1 Thes 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. Believing in Jesus means that I trust Him to do it all for me. I am having negative thoughts, I am sinning, I cry out "Father, save me, I submit to your will, guide me with your Spirit because I am not good enough on my own and never will be" and his Spirit guides me, gives me joy, love, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, faith, self-control... I am a better parent, a better wife, a better person because with His Spirit I can be more like Him. “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 1 Corinthians 1:2 together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ--their Lord and ours: Edited January 18, 2012 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Sanctification - becoming more Christlike - is from God, too. And in the Lord's Prayer, we are praying for *God* to change us - both by forgiving our sins, and enabling us to forgive others' sins. Of course we will fall short of the standard - we're fallen people in a fallen world. Praise be to God that His grace is sufficient for us! The EO does not divide Salvation up into parts and insist they go in this or that order like Protestants do ;) Salvation is not viewed as a one time event; it is a continuing process; all of your "-ations" rolled up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=331793&page=5 Earlier faith vs. works discussion. Something I noticed: calls and calling is a continual thing. It doesn't seem clear that you call on the Lord one time and are saved, never to call on Him again. kwim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Salvation comes from God. All we can do is become more like Christ. The Lord's Prayer has a line that says "Forgive us our trespasses (debts, sins) as we forgive those who trespass (have debts, sin) against us". I really think this may be a standard that we will be held to, especially if we tell God to hold us to that standard every time we say the Lord's Prayer. Well said, FathertoPearl! God holds us to a standard of absolute perfection. Failure to uphold it means death. And we've all failed. Thanks be to God He sent Jesus! My prayer is not, "God, do unto me as I do to others" :eek:, but rather, "God, help me do unto others the way you've done unto me" :grouphug:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The words salvation and sanctification are in actuality interchangeable and this seems to cause confusion in Protestants understanding the EO view. The local baptist church used the terms I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved in their explanation, whereas this article uses the term salvation for the I am saved phase, and sanctification for all three. Interesting, and possibly more helpful for discussion: http://www.gotquestions.org/sanctification.html To summarize, sanctification is the same Greek word as holiness, “hagios,” meaning a separation. First, a once-for-all positional separation unto Christ at our salvation. Second, a practical progressive holiness in a believer’s life while awaiting the return of Christ. Third, we will be changed into His perfect likeness—holy, sanctified, and completely separated from the presence of evil. Now what I would like to do is to go through the Bible and find instances of the terms justification, salvation, saved, sanctified, made holy, etc. and see what the terms were in the Greek. I prefer to get my definitions that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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