s/o Christians have to do X to get to heaven?

[TravelingChris]

I am with Mrs. Mungo on this. Because we are saved, we want to do good. But I really liked C.S. Lewis's explanation in Mere Christianity. His view is that we all have different temptations, temperaments, and abilities. God looks to us in our entirety. So someone born with a quick temperament and raised in a bad environment may be doing God's work by simply controlling his temper. On the other hand, maybe someone blessed with lots of ability and a good temperament is called to do a lot more for God.

[forty-two]

The EO does not divide Salvation up into parts and insist they go in this or that order like Protestants do ;) Salvation is not viewed as a one time event; it is a continuing process; all of your "-ations" rolled up.

I'm Lutheran, and I both agree and disagree with (what I understand of) the EO position. I do believe in a now and not yet duality, but not in the same way, I think. I believe that at the moment God first restored our relationship, He restored it 100%, forgave all sins, past, present, and future, justified us, sanctified us, all of it, right then.

 

But we don't *experience* it all right then, as we are still in this fallen world and subject to sin. Our *experience* of it is a process - but even as we experience the ups and downs, the objective reality is that we are already there. So when we cry out for God to forgive our sins - Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner (great prayer :thumbup:) - He forgives them right then and there, yet they were already forgiven. Our objective salvation was not dependent on our confessing our sins right there - if we hadn't, they would still be forgiven - but our subjective experience of having them forgiven by God right then is still *real*, God really gave us His grace *right then*, forgave us our sins that were already forgiven, and He does it for *us*.

 

Same with Communion - when we partake of communion, Christ is really present and our sins are really forgiven - even though *God* didn't need to "re"forgive them ;), *we* needed to experience that forgiveness anew.

[silliness7]

Half-way through. But I wanted to comment on the concept of rewards in heaven. My theology sounds like it lines right up with forty-two and I'm not going to repeat her wonderful explanations. I don't understand the reward thing myself but I heard someone explain it (maybe John Piper?) in this way. Christ is our reward. And there are degrees of enjoying Christ. This life is a training ground for enjoying Christ. Those who grow closer to Christ in this life (through his grace) are able to enjoy Christ in heaven on a greater degree.

 

I don't know if that's true, but it makes sense to me. Especially the part about Christ being the reward. Not jewels and crowns and mansions. That's got to be figurative to my way of thinking. Christ is the reward and the more you embrace that and live that and experience that the greater your joy (reward) both in this life and the next. Though I do think that we will spend eternity plumbing the depths of the glories of God and, of course, never exhausting of it.

 

And maybe there won't be degrees of enjoying Christ in heaven. Maybe it will all be like the parable of the master with the vineyard who paid all his workers the same wage regardless of how long they worked. Christ is still the reward. Enjoying Christ forever and perfectly without sin is our goal.

[Laurie4b]

Yeah, but when you feel like you might be failing the test, the answer isn't "oh crap, I better work harder or I'm not saved", or "oh crap, I must not be saved," but, "Oh Jesus, save me."

 

Absolutely: "Oh, Jesus, save me." Absolutely not: "I better work harder." The "I better work harder" is a conclusion that could well come from the question, "What do I have to do or avoid in order to get to heaven?" which is why I think it is a question that misdirects us. I also think the "in order to get to heaven" part misdirects us. It can be like asking, "What's the minimum to get the reward I'm after?" I think that's the part that leads to either despair or self-righteousness. "Have I done enough or not? I'm nervous." Rather, the focus is on gratitude for what Christ has done, on God's great love for us, on his provision for our continued forgiveness. That leaves us free to love him and others and to walk in step with the Spirit. It's the heart of a child towards a loving parent, or of a bride toward a bridegroom smitten with her. Most brides don't ask, "Have I done enough to qualify as a wife?" but rather respond in love to love.

 

However, there could be a bride who walked down the aisle, said the words, but never lived with her husband or consummated the relationship, but went right back to her live-in. Is she a wife? Of whom? I think the admonition to examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith is directed to those who are falsely assured. They prayed a prayer or walked down an aisle, etc, got their "fire insurance", haven't committed murder, and that's that. Those persons could hypothetically be saved (only their Physician knows for sure) , but they have no assurance of it, no evidence that their faith was more than the assent to certain facts that a demon has. And they shouldn't therefore be encouraged to trust that they are, in fact, saved, if their life has no fruit in it.

 

However, on the other hand, we are not to live in continual "self-introspection" and fear and doubt. We are to live in a love relationship with Him and others. He has paid the price in full , AND a person who truly believes that will have fruit in their lives--the fruit of the Spirit, not of will-powered self-effort. They will also have sin, not evidence that they have "failed the test" but indicative of a need for a wash up: I John 1:9 If we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and purify us (the washing) from all unrighteousness.

[Laurie4b]

If we don't meet His expectations and don't obey his commands, will be still be right with God and get into heaven?

 

We are right with God because of what Christ did.

 

You've been set free. Now what do you want to do with your freedom?

 

He loves you. How do you respond to that?

 

The one who loves you, loves your neighbor. How do you want to respond to that?

 

The one who loves you died to pay the price for your sins. Clean. His righteous life exchanged for your messed up one. What is your response?

 

The one who died for you said if you confess your sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive your sins and purify you from all unrighteousness. There is provision for your failure to live up to his expectations.

[TXMomof4]

Half-way through. But I wanted to comment on the concept of rewards in heaven. My theology sounds like it lines right up with forty-two and I'm not going to repeat her wonderful explanations. I don't understand the reward thing myself but I heard someone explain it (maybe John Piper?) in this way. Christ is our reward. And there are degrees of enjoying Christ. This life is a training ground for enjoying Christ. Those who grow closer to Christ in this life (through his grace) are able to enjoy Christ in heaven on a greater degree.

 

I don't know if that's true, but it makes sense to me. Especially the part about Christ being the reward. Not jewels and crowns and mansions. That's got to be figurative to my way of thinking. Christ is the reward and the more you embrace that and live that and experience that the greater your joy (reward) both in this life and the next. Though I do think that we will spend eternity plumbing the depths of the glories of God and, of course, never exhausting of it.

 

And maybe there won't be degrees of enjoying Christ in heaven. Maybe it will all be like the parable of the master with the vineyard who paid all his workers the same wage regardless of how long they worked. Christ is still the reward. Enjoying Christ forever and perfectly without sin is our goal.

 

If you look at 1 Cor. 3 I think it addresses some of the ideas about works building a better reward. Jesus is the foundation. Some of us will do things that don't build a beautiful home on that foundation, just a shack of wood and straw. Those things won't be recognized, but we still have the foundation. The things I do that matter will remain - gold that can't be destroyed. Still doesn't change the foundation.

 

I think it depends on the person what is gold and what is straw. It can't be determined by anyone else because no one else knows where I began or what my path is.

1 Cor 3:10-15

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

[forty-two]

Absolutely: "Oh, Jesus, save me." Absolutely not: "I better work harder." The "I better work harder" is a conclusion that could well come from the question, "What do I have to do or avoid in order to get to heaven?" which is why I think it is a question that misdirects us. I also think the "in order to get to heaven" part misdirects us. It can be like asking, "What's the minimum to get the reward I'm after?" I think that's the part that leads to either despair or self-righteousness. "Have I done enough or not? I'm nervous." Rather, the focus is on gratitude for what Christ has done, on God's great love for us, on his provision for our continued forgiveness. That leaves us free to love him and others and to walk in step with the Spirit. It's the heart of a child towards a loving parent, or of a bride toward a bridegroom smitten with her. Most brides don't ask, "Have I done enough to qualify as a wife?" but rather respond in love to love.

 

However, there could be a bride who walked down the aisle, said the words, but never lived with her husband or consummated the relationship, but went right back to her live-in. Is she a wife? Of whom? I think the admonition to examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith is directed to those who are falsely assured. They prayed a prayer or walked down an aisle, etc, got their "fire insurance", haven't committed murder, and that's that. Those persons could hypothetically be saved (only their Physician knows for sure) , but they have no assurance of it, no evidence that their faith was more than the assent to certain facts that a demon has. And they shouldn't therefore be encouraged to trust that they are, in fact, saved, if their life has no fruit in it.

 

However, on the other hand, we are not to live in continual "self-introspection" and fear and doubt. We are to live in a love relationship with Him and others. He has paid the price in full , AND a person who truly believes that will have fruit in their lives--the fruit of the Spirit, not of will-powered self-effort. They will also have sin, not evidence that they have "failed the test" but indicative of a need for a wash up: I John 1:9 If we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and purify us (the washing) from all unrighteousness.

Agree totally with paragraphs 1 and 3. Agree in para 2 that if we have no works, we should worry, but disagree that the presence/absence of works is what gives assurance of faith. We agree that if our works say, oh, there's a problem here, then our response is to turn to Christ. But what if you look at your works and think you're in good shape? Is that *assurance* of salvation? Most certainly not! Our works have *nothing* to do with our being saved. If you are looking to your works for *confirmation* of your salvation, you are in danger of *trusting* in those works for salvation.

 

While lack of works can indicate a problem, presence of works means *nothing*. Exhortations to look to our works are meant to turn us back to Jesus. Because our works will *never*, ever be good enough, and an honest appraisal will show that. We *all* have a lack of good works.

 

We need to look to Jesus for our salvation *and* our assurance of salvation. We are saved because of Jesus, and our assurance of salvation is in Him. Only someone who is saved can cry out to Jesus in the first place - we cry, we can be assured that not only *will* He answer, but that He *already has*.

[Lovedtodeath]

1 Corinthians 12:

There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

So saying that all believers must preach or all believers must teach, or all believers must speak in tongues is wrong... period.

[Caitilin]

I take it the exact opposite, myself - that we are praying that God would help us forgive others the way that He forgives us. Because if forgives others is necessary for salvation, it can only be done by God.

 

And wrt the free will issue, I don't have as high a view as some. Before we are saved, our will is bound to sin, and we can do nothing *but* sin (we have our choice of sin, though, I suppose ;)). And after we are saved, our will is bound to God - we are free to do what we were created to do, be in relationship with God, do His will. But as long as we live in this fallen world, we are still bound to sin, do things we don't want to do, don't do the things we want to do. I'm not sure how much control *we* - as opposed to God - have on this.

 

I think we are running into difficulties because not all Christians share the bolded view of human nature after the Fall. I know that I don't, and I find that it is not borne out in practical experience of our non-Christian brothers and sisters.:001_smile:

Edited January 18, 2012 by Caitilin

[Lovedtodeath]

Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

 

2 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

 

Some of us start out in different places, but we are still being transformed. I really love this post.

I am with Mrs. Mungo on this. Because we are saved, we want to do good. But I really liked C.S. Lewis's explanation in Mere Christianity. His view is that we all have different temptations, temperaments, and abilities. God looks to us in our entirety. So someone born with a quick temperament and raised in a bad environment may be doing God's work by simply controlling his temper. On the other hand, maybe someone blessed with lots of ability and a good temperament is called to do a lot more for God.

[scrapbookbuzz]

Jesus states in the book of John, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No comes to the Father but through Me." We must invite Jesus into our lives and accept Him as our Lord and the Son of God. That's all that's required for salvation (eternal life in Heaven).

[forty-two]

I think we are running into difficulties because not all Christians share the bolded view of human nature after the Fall. I know that I don't, and that it is not borne out in practical experience of our non-Christian brothers and sisters.:001_smile:

Well, depends what you mean by sin, doesn't it ;). For me, sin is anything outside the will of God. People whose relationship with God is broken do *everything* outside of God's will be definition, b/c if you aren't in relationship with God, you are *incapable* of being in His will or even wanting to be in His will.

 

Now, that doesn't mean that they are all sadistic murderers. Everyone has natural law written on their hearts, and people - including those who are not saved - follow it at times. They do nice things for their neighbors, they do good things in this world, they help people. They want to be good people. And many of them *are* good people. But they are still apart from God, still unrighteous. Being a good person is not what saves you.

 

Because no matter how good we are, we can't fix our broken relationship with God. Only God can do that. And He does it without respect for what we have done or not done.

[forty-two]

Jesus states in the book of John, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No comes to the Father but through Me." We must invite Jesus into our lives and accept Him as our Lord and the Son of God. That's all that's required for salvation (eternal life in Heaven).

*Nothing* is required of *us* in order to be saved. *Nothing*. We are saved by faith, *not* through (our) works. And accepting Jesus is a work. Period.

 

We need faith in Jesus to be saved, this is true. But *we* can do nothing to get this faith. *God* creates that faith in us, *God* gives us the desire to turn to Jesus, to confess our sins, to believe in Him. We are saved by *Jesus'* work, not ours.

[Caribbean Queen]

This thread is so interesting.

Absolutely: "Oh, Jesus, save me." Absolutely not: "I better work harder." The "I better work harder" is a conclusion that could well come from the question, "What do I have to do or avoid in order to get to heaven?" which is why I think it is a question that misdirects us. I also think the "in order to get to heaven" part misdirects us. It can be like asking, "What's the minimum to get the reward I'm after?" I think that's the part that leads to either despair or self-righteousness. ...

However, there could be a bride who walked down the aisle, said the words, but never lived with her husband or consummated the relationship, but went right back to her live-in. Is she a wife? Of whom? I think the admonition to examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith is directed to those who are falsely assured. They prayed a prayer or walked down an aisle, etc, got their "fire insurance", haven't committed murder, and that's that. Those persons could hypothetically be saved (only their Physician knows for sure) , but they have no assurance of it, no evidence that their faith was more than the assent to certain facts that a demon has. And they shouldn't therefore be encouraged to trust that they are, in fact, saved, if their life has no fruit in it.

Great post. I agree almost 100%. I posted what I disagree with and then edited it out but someone quoted me so I'll put it back in

I mean that if I examine my own heart, and I know that I could care less about obeying God, yet I said the sinner's prayer 18 years ago, I can be pretty certain my "fire insurance" policy is no good. It is not that I have no assurance that I am right with God. I should know that I am not right with God.

 

Yes, when we ask God to save us He will help us to obey Him. He doesn't allow us to be tempted more than we can bear. So if we say we are Christians but we are also drunkards, adulterers... ??

Edited January 18, 2012 by Caribbean Queen

[Caitilin]

Well, depends what you mean by sin, doesn't it ;). For me, sin is anything outside the will of God. People whose relationship with God is broken do *everything* outside of God's will be definition, b/c if you aren't in relationship with God, you are *incapable* of being in His will or even wanting to be in His will.

 

Now, that doesn't mean that they are all sadistic murderers. Everyone has natural law written on their hearts, and people - including those who are not saved - follow it at times. They do nice things for their neighbors, they do good things in this world, they help people. They want to be good people. And many of them *are* good people. But they are still apart from God, still unrighteous. Being a good person is not what saves you.

 

Because no matter how good we are, we can't fix our broken relationship with God. Only God can do that. And He does it without respect for what we have done or not done.

 

But if the second most important commandment which Christ gave us is to love our neighbor, then how can those who DO love their neighbors be operating outside of the will of God? And I guess I just don't agree that our behavior has no relationship to what "happens to us".

[Lovedtodeath]

Well, depends what you mean by sin, doesn't it ;). For me, sin is anything outside the will of God. People whose relationship with God is broken do *everything* outside of God's will be definition, b/c if you aren't in relationship with God, you are *incapable* of being in His will or even wanting to be in His will.

 

YES. I am convicted if I have not relied on His guidance for everything each and every day. I pray for forgiveness and start anew, attempting to submit fully to His will.

 

I mean that if I examine my own heart, and I know that I could care less about obeying God, yet I said the sinner's prayer 18 years ago, I can be pretty certain my "fire insurance" policy is no good. It is not that I have no assurance that I am right with God. I should know that I am not right with God.

:iagree:

[Retired]

The Bible says we'll be known by our fruit (the positive changes in us). We should all show a radical change of focus after salvation -- we should be trying to please the Lord, to do His will, to further His kingdom. If no one can see changes in us, it's very possible that true salvation never happened.

 

:iagree:

[forty-two]

But if the second most important commandment which Christ gave us is to love our neighbor, then how can those who DO love their neighbors be operating outside of the will of God? And I guess I just don't agree that our behavior has no relationship to what "happens to us".

Because a) they are not fulfilling the most important commandment - love the Lord your God - at all, and b) they are not loving their neighbors perfectly. They have fallen short, just like all of us.

 

It's not so much that nothing we do affects what happens to us, but that we have no clue why some and not others. We know that we all have sinned and fallen short, and that we are saved by faith, not according to our works. We know that God desires all to be saved. We know that God does all the saving - we do *nothing*. And we know that not all are saved. And this makes *no sense* to human reasoning. And any attempts to make it make sense end up bending or breaking part of it in order to get a rational-to-humans explanation. So I *don't* know how it works, only that apparently it does.

[silliness7]

I found this article on the subject of heavenly rewards very interesting. It's quite long. Here is the last paragraph...

 

In concluding, it is important to make one thing very clear. Heavenly rewards are not something we earn through our own efforts. And they are never a case of God being put in our debt and required to repay our "service." Rather, as Augustine has said, it is a matter of "God crowning His own gifts." That is, our obedience which God graciously decides to reward is itself graciously given and worked by God (Philippians 2:12-13; Hebrews 13:21). God's promises of reward are not a job description where He makes us employees who, through our services, put Him in a debt to us which He must repay by giving us our rewards (or "paycheck"). On the contrary, His promises are like a doctor's prescription. When you follow a doctor's prescription you get well not because you earned it in a display of your own strength, but because the doctor's wise guidelines were the path to your health. We pursue heavenly rewards not to exalt ourselves, but to exalt God.

[Lovedtodeath]

And this makes *no sense* to human reasoning. And any attempts to make it make sense end up bending or breaking part of it in order to get a rational-to-humans explanation.

Hallelujah! That is why we need faith.

 

We know enough to trust, not enough to explain every detail.

[simka2]

Well, depends what you mean by sin, doesn't it ;). For me, sin is anything outside the will of God. People whose relationship with God is broken do *everything* outside of God's will be definition, b/c if you aren't in relationship with God, you are *incapable* of being in His will or even wanting to be in His will.

 

Now, that doesn't mean that they are all sadistic murderers. Everyone has natural law written on their hearts, and people - including those who are not saved - follow it at times. They do nice things for their neighbors, they do good things in this world, they help people. They want to be good people. And many of them *are* good people. But they are still apart from God, still unrighteous. Being a good person is not what saves you.

 

Because no matter how good we are, we can't fix our broken relationship with God. Only God can do that. And He does it without respect for what we have done or not done.

 

Can I ask a question? Are you saying that the good done by those outside a relationship with God as you define it are sinning? Since they are incapable of doing His will...is everything they do, even the good, a sin? :confused:

Edited January 18, 2012 by simka2

[TranquilMind]

Doing certain things will not save you. However, we are expected to live in such as way that our lives show the presence of God within us.

This.

[Lovedtodeath]

Shameless plug for my spin-off thread: s/o Christians go to heaven? What about the earth? Psalm 37, Matthew 5 etc.

[sweetbasil]

Because no matter how good we are, we can't fix our broken relationship with God. Only God can do that. And He does it without respect for what we have done or not done.

 

Actually, the Bible makes it clear that no one is good. But I understand what you're saying -- what you're addressing is Common Grace. God extends His grace to all the world, not just to Christians, simply because He is good.

 

The law exists, not to guide us to goodness, but to reveal to us just how impossible it is to be good. Jesus himself said that even thinking about sin was the same as committing the sin.

 

However, once God changes the heart (and only He can do that, because we are dead in our sins), one begins to show the fruits of the spirit. The fruit is the evidence of the change in the heart.

 

So no, we cannot earn anything at all. We can't "do" anything for a perfect, holy, righteous God. If works were necessary, the thief on the cross would not have been promised that he would be in paradise with Christ that very day. Thinking that we can earn any part of our own salvation is idolatry -- elevating ourselves to the level of God.

[silliness7]

I think we are running into difficulties because not all Christians share the bolded view of human nature after the Fall. I know that I don't, and I find that it is not borne out in practical experience of our non-Christian brothers and sisters.:001_smile:

 

I wonder if this comes from a narrower view of what sin is as opposed to a broader view?

 

Just thinking out loud. I am unfamiliar with much of EO and RC theology but I enjoy learning on threads like these.

[silliness7]

Well, depends what you mean by sin, doesn't it ;). For me, sin is anything outside the will of God. People whose relationship with God is broken do *everything* outside of God's will be definition, b/c if you aren't in relationship with God, you are *incapable* of being in His will or even wanting to be in His will.

 

Now, that doesn't mean that they are all sadistic murderers. Everyone has natural law written on their hearts, and people - including those who are not saved - follow it at times. They do nice things for their neighbors, they do good things in this world, they help people. They want to be good people. And many of them *are* good people. But they are still apart from God, still unrighteous. Being a good person is not what saves you.

 

Because no matter how good we are, we can't fix our broken relationship with God. Only God can do that. And He does it without respect for what we have done or not done.

 

This is what I meant to say. :D

[forty-two]

Can I ask a question? Are you saying that the good done by those outside a relationship with God as you define it are sinning? Since they are incapable of doing His will...is everything they do? Even the good, a sin? :confused:

Well, yes. All our righteousness is as filthy rags in His sight. And I'm sure I'm also sinning tons, including in my (alleged) good works. Good works just have nothing to do with our standing before God. Only Christ, and His work, counts.

 

But that's not license for anyone to say, screw it, I won't even try. Good works do good things in this world - they just aren't getting us to heaven.

[sweetbasil]

Can I ask a question? Are you saying that the good done by those outside a relationship with God as you define it are sinning? Since they are incapable of doing His will...is everything they do, even the good, a sin? :confused:

 

"We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners."

 

Sin is like a drop of poison in a bowl of soup. Even if the soup was 99.999% poison-free, you still can't eat it, because the poison infects it all.

 

But that said, no, being kind, being selfless, doing what's right (by Christian terms, not in a "what's right for me" sense) -- those things are not sins, assuming they are done from good intentions.

Edited January 18, 2012 by sweetbasil

[simka2]

Well, yes. All our righteousness is as filthy rags in His sight. And I'm sure I'm also sinning tons, including in my (alleged) good works. Good works just have nothing to do with our standing before God. Only Christ, and His work, counts.

 

But that's not license for anyone to say, screw it, I won't even try. Good works do good things in this world - they just aren't getting us to heaven.

 

I just want to make sure I am understanding. No snark, this is just different to me. :001_smile:

 

If a Buddhist feeds the poor it is a sin, but if a Christian feeds the poor it is not? :confused:

[silliness7]

Can I ask a question? Are you saying that the good done by those outside a relationship with God as you define it are sinning? Since they are incapable of doing His will...is everything they do, even the good, a sin? :confused:

 

Most of the "good" *I* do is tainted with sin, and I wonder about people who think that their good works are actually righteous. The doctrine is not to meant to divide people into two camps, sinners and non-sinners. It is to divide people (who are *all* sinners) and God. The beauty of the Gospel is that it bridges that division so that sinners can stand in the God-camp.

[simka2]

Most of the "good" *I* do is tainted with sin, and I wonder about people who think that their good works are actually righteous. The doctrine is not to meant to divide people into two camps, sinners and non-sinners. It is to divide people (who are *all* sinners) and God. The beauty of the Gospel is that it bridges that division so that sinners can stand in the God-camp.

 

I understand what you are saying, but there is a difference between "being a sinner" and "commiting a sin." That is the difference I am trying to get to the bottom to. ;)

[forty-two]

I just want to make sure I am understanding. No snark, this is just different to me. :001_smile:

 

If a Buddhist feeds the poor it is a sin, but if a Christian feeds the poor it is not? :confused:

Honestly, there's probably sin in both cases. Christians are still subject to sin, and the effects are insidious. I don't really believe anyone this side of heaven (but Christ ;)) does *anything* sin free - we're living in fallen world, sin taints *everything*, including Christians. Nobody does anything perfectly, not even Christians. Only Christ. And we can't take credit for Him ;).

[forty-two]

I understand what you are saying, but there is a difference between "being a sinner" and "commiting a sin." That is the difference I am trying to get to the bottom to. ;)

See, there is *no* difference. Sinners sin, period - that's what it *means* to be a sinner, one who sins. Christian sinners sin and non-Christian sinners sin.

[forty-two]

Most of the "good" *I* do is tainted with sin, and I wonder about people who think that their good works are actually righteous. The doctrine is not to meant to divide people into two camps, sinners and non-sinners. It is to divide people (who are *all* sinners) and God. The beauty of the Gospel is that it bridges that division so that sinners can stand in the God-camp.

:iagree:

[simka2]

Honestly, there's probably sin in both cases. Christians are still subject to sin, and the effects are insidious. I don't really believe anyone this side of heaven (but Christ ;)) does *anything* sin free - we're living in fallen world, sin taints *everything*, including Christians. Nobody does anything perfectly, not even Christians. Only Christ. And we can't take credit for Him ;).

 

I am really not trying to be difficult!!! :D So what you are saying, is that irregardless of ones relationship with Christ, whether one is a Christian or not, EVERYTHING we do is a sin?

 

Like I said earlier, I am trying to distinguish if the good non-Christians do is a sin. Not if they or I am a sinner, but if their good deeds are sins. Does that makes sense?

[Laurie4b]

This thread is so interesting.

 

Great post.

Yes, when we ask God to save us He will help us to obey Him. He doesn't allow us to be tempted more than we can bear. So if we say we are Christians but we are also drunkards, adulterers... ??

 

I think the question is, from an earthly viewpoint, perhaps about identity. (This is me musing.. Take it with a grain of salt.) If one's self can be summarized by the label "drunkard" or "adulterer" then we are in that place where it's good to "examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith" because that is not the normal Christian life. Something is out of whack. That's different from when one's identify is "Christian" who struggles with drunkness or adulterous thoughts. In that case, imo, you are in a Rom 7 struggle with your sin: you hate it, but you keep stumbling, confessing, crying out to God. that is different, imo. And Rom 7 is followed by Romans 8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

 

Are you actually asking a pastoral question: what do you do if you know someone like that? Or what do you do if someone you know is plagued by fear that each sin puts them in danger of hell?

Edited January 18, 2012 by Laurie4b

[simka2]

See, there is *no* difference. Sinners sin, period - that's what it *means* to be a sinner, one who sins. Christian sinners sin and non-Christian sinners sin.

 

 

Yes, but is everything they do a sin?

[sweetbasil]

Like I said earlier, I am trying to distinguish if the good non-Christians do is a sin.

 

No. Good only comes from God, so therefore, anything truly good cannot be sinful. God extends common grace to the entire world. What I mean is, if you do what God commands -- feed the hungry, help widows and orphans, etc, you are doing what's good. You are still sinful, and the good thing cannot earn your salvation, but no, of course the good act in and of itself is not sinful.

Edited January 18, 2012 by sweetbasil

[Caitilin]

But why would God bother with us if we are just filthy rags? How can we be made in God's image if we are inherently evil? How could Christ have taken on our human nature if there is no good left in it? Christ became one like us in all things but sin, but if I understnd correctly, all we are is sin--how COULD He become one like us in that case?

[silliness7]

I understand what you are saying, but there is a difference between "being a sinner" and "commiting a sin." That is the difference I am trying to get to the bottom to. ;)

 

Well, with the Buddhist example you gave what are you trying to say?

 

Let's say the Buddhist *is* a sinner because he is separated from God yet the Buddhist fed the poor yesterday and has plans to feed them tomorrow. Doing that is a good thing and *not* a sin. So what? It cannot negate any other sin he committed last week.

It doesn't change his status before God. Would anyone say that the Buddhist should stop feeding the poor or that it is a bad thing or that it doesn't matter? I don't think so. But I would say that his feeding of the poor doesn't earn him points with God anymore than a Christian's feeding of the poor earns points.

 

Salavation is so entirely separate from human work and human action it really muddies the water to talk about them together. But that is the way of most of Christendom I think, and most of humanity for that matter.

 

I find this discussion very interesting.

[forty-two]

I am really not trying to be difficult!!! :D So what you are saying, is that irregardless of ones relationship with Christ, whether one is a Christian or not, EVERYTHING we do is a sin?

 

Like I said earlier, I am trying to distinguish if the good non-Christians do is a sin. Not if they or I am a sinner, but if their good deeds are sins. Does that makes sense?

Ok, that's a philosophical question that very well may be beyond me :tongue_smilie:. But I'll take a stab. All the good in the world is from God. And God works that good through Christians and non-Christians. And it is good. But yet the person doing that good is not (unless they are Christ) untainted by sin. So any good they do is tainted by sin. So they sin as they do it, as we all sin when we do anything in this sinful world. And that sin counts against them. And merits death. Without Christ, they will suffer that merited death. Basically, it sucks to live in a fallen world. Thanks be to God that He sent Christ!

[silliness7]

I am really not trying to be difficult!!! :D So what you are saying, is that irregardless of ones relationship with Christ, whether one is a Christian or not, EVERYTHING we do is a sin?

 

Like I said earlier, I am trying to distinguish if the good non-Christians do is a sin. Not if they or I am a sinner, but if their good deeds are sins. Does that makes sense?

 

It doesn't matter if EVERYTHING you do is a sin. It only matters if you commit one teeny tiny sin. Just one. Sometimes I think it is easier for the really rotten to grasp the mercy of the Gospel because they know they are really rotten. But the good people can have a hard time understanding that their goodness is not good enough to meet God's righteous requirements.

[simka2]

Well, with the Buddhist example you gave what are you trying to say?

 

Let's say the Buddhist *is* a sinner because he is separated from God yet the Buddhist fed the poor yesterday and has plans to feed them tomorrow. Doing that is a good thing and *not* a sin. So what? It cannot negate any other sin he committed last week.

It doesn't change his status before God. Would anyone say that the Buddhist should stop feeding the poor or that it is a bad thing or that it doesn't matter? I don't think so. But I would say that his feeding of the poor doesn't earn him points with God anymore than a Christian's feeding of the poor earns points.

 

Salavation is so entirely separate from human work and human action it really muddies the water to talk about them together. But that is the way of most of Christendom I think, and most of humanity for that matter.

 

I find this discussion very interesting.

No, I am not saying anything about the Buddhist's salvation or lack thereof. The original post I quoted led me to believe the poster believes that the good done by those who are not in a relationship with the Christian God, are sinning. That is what I am trying to understand. ;)

 

It matters to me if someone is saying that non-Christian's are actively sinning by doing a good deed.

 

That is what I am trying to understand.

[ma23peas]

However, once God changes the heart (and only He can do that, because we are dead in our sins), one begins to show the fruits of the spirit. The fruit is the evidence of the change in the heart.

 

So no, we cannot earn anything at all. We can't "do" anything for a perfect, holy, righteous God. If works were necessary, the thief on the cross would not have been promised that he would be in paradise with Christ that very day. Thinking that we can earn any part of our own salvation is idolatry -- elevating ourselves to the level of God.

 

Romans 10 vs. 9 says: "If you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

 

"

The difficulty that many people have with this concept is trying to reconcile God's sovereignty and our free choice. The Bible teaches that God is sovereign over ALL things. The Bible also teaches that we must freely choose God. The question then becomes how does God plan our free choices so that they are entirely according to His plan and also made freely by us. The answer: I don't know. God plans what we choose and we are entirely responsible for those choices.

We must 'let God be God.' There will be things that we cannot understand but we must remember that "God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and his ways not our ways" as it says in Isaiah. There are many things that we cannot understand about God's ways. This is where we need to trust Him"

 

Now putting that out there...I believe that there are sins..not all good works of men are sins...not everything man does is a sin outside of God...but it clearly states our 'good' works can not get us into Heaven...so clearly God sees that man can do good...but the sinful nature we are born into separates us from God...without His grace and mercy and our hearts are seeking him.

 

Is your question can man do good things without a faith in Christ..absolutely...but can a man who does good things be accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven without acknowledging that without a faith in Christ, his death and resurrection as the son of God sent to restore the chasm between God and man...no, he can not.

 

A common problem in today's world is that we have the problem of the Pharisees and tax collectors..the parable stated that the Pharisees were self-righteous and had a condemning view of those who did not 'accomplish' what all they had done for God. While, the tax collector was humble and while he may have sinned..had a heart open to hearing what Jesus was trying to tell them...Jesus did not hang around a good deal of Pharisees and religious leaders...he tried often to speak to them in their temples...but they were too haughty and set in 'tradition' and they're own wisdom to listen....

[Caribbean Queen]

I think the question is, from an earthly viewpoint, perhaps about identity. (This is me musing.. Take it with a grain of salt.) If one's self can be summarized by the label "drunkard" or "adulterer" then we are in that place where it's good to "examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith" because that is not the normal Christian life. Something is out of whack. That's different from when one's identify is "Christian" who struggles with drunkness or adulterous thoughts. In that case, imo, you are in a Rom 7 struggle with your sin: you hate it, but you keep stumbling, confessing, crying out to God, then that is different, imo. And Rom 7 is followed by Romans 8:1 There is now therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

 

Are you actually asking a pastoral question: what do you do if you know someone like that? Or what do you do if someone you know is plagued by fear that each sin puts them in danger of hell?

I think that Christians who cry out to God to help them stop being a drunkards will stop being drunkards. He doesn't allow us to be tempted more than we can bear. We can do anything through Him that gives us strength. (Sorry, I am too busy to quote better)

I think Christians, commonly, are not very concerned with pleasing God. I haven't seen much crying out to the Lord to help them obey. I see a lot of people who think if they said the sinner's prayer, or were sprinkled as a baby, they are safe no matter what, so they can do what they want. I want people to think about whether or not God will accept "fire insurance policies."

[forty-two]

But why would God bother with us if we are just filthy rags? How can we be made in God's image if we are inherently evil? How could Christ have taken on our human nature if there is no good left in it? Christ became one like us in all things but sin, but if I understnd correctly, all we are is sin--how COULD He become one like us in that case?

Humanity *was* created good. But the fall so tainted everything that we can't do, think, even exist, without sinning - it's not *all* we are, but it *infects* all we are.

[simka2]

It doesn't matter if EVERYTHING you do is a sin. It only matters if you commit one teeny tiny sin. Just one. Sometimes I think it is easier for the really rotten to grasp the mercy of the Gospel because they know they are really rotten. But the good people can have a hard time understanding that their goodness is not good enough to meet God's righteous requirements.

 

I know that we have very different opinions about the bolded. That is fine ;) I enjoy discussing these things, but since I do have a different belief's, it makes me curious about the post I originally quoted.

 

Because of your beliefs this fits together nicely. For me it doesn't and I am trying to understand. If I can only understand if I agree to the same concept of the bolded...then I may not ever be able to understand, and that is okay to. :D

[forty-two]

No, I am not saying anything about the Buddhist's salvation or lack thereof. The original post I quoted led me to believe the poster believes that the good done by those who are not in a relationship with the Christian God, are sinning. That is what I am trying to understand. ;)

 

It matters to me if someone is saying that non-Christian's are actively sinning by doing a good deed.

 

That is what I am trying to understand.

Well, the Buddhist is not sinning *by* doing a good deed. Rather he is sinning *as* he does a good deed. And if it makes you feel any better, I also say that Christians are sinning as we do good deeds, too ;).

[Caitilin]

Humanity *was* created good. But the fall so tainted everything that we can't do, think, even exist, without sinning - it's not *all* we are, but it *infects* all we are.

 

Ok, but explain how Christ was able to take upon Himself our humanity if there is no aspect of humanity untouched by sin. I cannot make these two ideas jive.

[silliness7]

No, I am not saying anything about the Buddhist's salvation or lack thereof. The original post I quoted led me to believe the poster believes that the good done by those who are not in a relationship with the Christian God, are sinning. That is what I am trying to understand. ;)

 

It matters to me if someone is saying that non-Christian's are actively sinning by doing a good deed.

 

That is what I am trying to understand.

 

Have you heard anyone say that? Or do you think that is the logical conclusion of what you have heard?