s/o piercing thread; so what if one was against circ?

[TranquilMind]

I was against circ, but dh was adamantly for it. It's part of being Jewish for him. So he won that one. And actually, the ceremony done by the mohel was beautiful and did not resemble a screaming baby being strapped down to a board at all. I was thankful for that.

If we had circumsized, we would have definitely used a mohel, if he'd do it for a non-Jew (with a Jewish name, anyway?). There was a synagogue right across the street and we had a home birth.

[melissel]

Circumcision is not "brutal." Performed properly (with a topical anesthetic followed by a local) it is a pain-free procedure that brings a life-time of benefits.

 

I think it is instructive that all the husbands mentioned in the thread (save one, who comes from a country where there is a strong cultural component against circumcision) support circumcision. There is good reason for this.

 

Bill

 

You can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it true. And if they're anything like my own husband, it's because they didn't bother to do any research on it like most of us did. After being presented with the research, my DH decided he didn't want it done either.

[Runningmom80]

Circumcision is not "brutal." Performed properly (with a topical anesthetic followed by a local) it is a pain-free procedure that brings a life-time of benefits.

 

I think it is instructive that all the husbands mentioned in the thread (save one, who comes from a country where there is a strong cultural component against circumcision) support circumcision. There is good reason for this.

 

Bill

 

 

 

Thank you for this.

 

 

I'll be completely honest here. I went back and forth on the issue when I was pg with older DS. My dh was for it, I wasn't sure. Then, when I was 8 months pregnant, I was listening to a radio show all about circ. There was this 21 yo guy who had just had it done because he hated not having it done. He talked about how girls didn't really react well to him not being circ'ed. So I decided to do it. The wisest way to make a decision? Not really. I did research it, but 6 years ago, there was still a lot of information for both sides. So that dude on the radio is responsible for my DS's circ'ed penis.

 

 

When I was pg with my twins, there was more of a movement to not circ. Again, I found info and pros and cons for both sides of the argument. Then I was watching Oprah and dr oz recommended circumcision.

 

 

So many of you will be appalled by this, I understand. A stranger on the radio, and dr. Oz made up my mind.

 

 

FTR, neither had any complications, and I don't regret it. All of the little boys I know are circ'ed, so I don't think I'm too much of a barbarian. If I am, I'm in good company.

[Runningmom80]

You can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it true. And if they're anything like my own husband, it's because they didn't bother to do any research on it like most of us did. After being presented with the research, my DH decided he didn't want it done either.

 

 

 

My dh researched It with me, and he still wanted my sons circ'ed.

[Parrothead]

You can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it true. And if they're anything like my own husband, it's because they didn't bother to do any research on it like most of us did. After being presented with the research, my DH decided he didn't want it done either.

I think there is enough research on both sides of the issue to make the research argument null.

 

It seems to be that to circ a male child or not to circ is simply a parental choice. Neither wrong. Neither right.

 

I don't have a son and have no idea what I would do if faced with the choice of circ'ing or not circ'ing. I'd probably leave it up to dh as he is the one with the parts to make an informed decision.

 

I'd fight tooth and nail against a female circ for my dd. If dh felt that strongly one way or another about a boy baby's circ that would be what I'd go with.

[Spy Car]

You can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it true. And if they're anything like my own husband, it's because they didn't bother to do any research on it like most of us did. After being presented with the research, my DH decided he didn't want it done either.

 

I've seen it with my own eyes. Not a tear shed, not even a wince. The anti-circ zealots spread lies and untruths.

 

Men are not stupid and uninterested on the topic, no matter how y'all might try to suggest otherwise. I don't know a single example of a father who wouldn't want the absolute best for his son. Unfortunately in the internet age we have fanatics who misrepresent the truth about things like circumcision and vaccinations and people get very passionate and emotional on the issues, but these are not passions based on reason or reality.

 

Bill

[melissel]

My dh researched It with me, and he still wanted my sons circ'ed.

 

I think there is enough research on both sides of the issue to make the research argument null.

 

It seems to be that to circ a male child or not to circ is simply a parental choice. Neither wrong. Neither right.

 

I don't disagree with either of you. My point was simply countering Spy Car's, which implied that because all the husband's were for it, it must be right. In my experience, most husband's are for it because it's what they know, not because they've paid any attention to the pros and cons either way. When most husbands are presented with actual research, either way, their opinions are more likely to change. My own DH's initial reason was "because I'd want him to look like me." IMO, that's not enough reason to go cutting bits off a newborn, and ultimately, DH agreed.

 

And Runningmom, you're certainly entitled to have made your decision any way you choose to. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not the choice I would have made, but so what? Your kid is not mine :D

[melissel]

I've seen it with my own eyes. Not a tear shed, not even a wince. The anti-circ zealots spread lies and untruths.

 

Men are not stupid and uninterested on the topic, no matter how y'all might try to suggest otherwise. I don't know a single example of a father who wouldn't want the absolute best for his son. Unfortunately in the internet age we have fanatics who misrepresent the truth about things like circumcision and vaccinations and people get very passionate and emotional on the issues, but these are not passions based on reason or reality.

 

Bill

 

As have I, actually, and my experience was not the same as yours. Many other people have had negative experiences with circumcision, and your positive one doesn't negate theirs or make them lies.

 

And I didn't call men stupid or uninterested. I said that most haven't done the research. In my own experience, the dads I have known have not done any research on the topic--none--until their wives brought the issue up and made it into a discussion. Until that point, they believed it was just what was, and still is, done to all boys.

 

As Parrothead pointed out, there's creditable research both for and against male circumcision. Ultimately, we must all decide who we believe.

[SKL]

I guess I'm not getting why a man's opinion on foreskins is irrelevant unless he's done exactly the same research as his wife. Does not the man's own life experience with/without/around foreskins matter? Especially when it seems the biggest argument against circ is that the child will grow up and have a lower life quality as a result of a lack of foreskin.

 

I guess we should also say that women have no right to an opinion about female circumcision, or rape for that matter, unless they have done X hours of research.

[MHowell]

You can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it true. And if they're anything like my own husband, it's because they didn't bother to do any research on it like most of us did. After being presented with the research, my DH decided he didn't want it done either.

 

If I were my husband or any other caring father I would find this offensive. My husband DID research this with me, and we made the decision together. Our son is circ'd. Our son didn't flinch or cry when the ring was placed, and as it fell off and healed never had any noticeable difference in demeanor or fever, etc.

 

I feel like you have a JAWM view on this and didn't actually WANT to hear anyone's opinions that do not agree with your own. There is research on both sides of this argument, and as things stand now there is no strong facts pushing one side as the better. I'm sorry you can't seem to agree to disagree.

[PeacefulChaos]

I never even thought about it.

DH's family circumcises. End of story. I didn't know much of anything about it. I don't know why. Honestly, I didn't know what an uncirc'd male looked like til I had children.

It really isn't a big deal. Most people just do what their family does, and a lot of times they do whatever will have the boy 'look like Dad', so to speak. Which isn't a bad thing.

[TranquilMind]

We had the same thing happen in our family. My oldest son was uncirced, had horrible problems up until then, and had to be circed at 11. It was horrible. But because of the problems we had with Ds1, we had the other two boys circed.

That makes sense and would change the minds of a lot of people.

 

Fortunately, my son has had no problems. Everything has functioned well.

[PeacefulChaos]

When threads like this pop up, and all the women that say, "I would die on this hill," or "I would NEVER tolerate...," or "I would do it anyway" etc., I always wonder what they would do if their husbands behaved like that. THEN it would be a thread about domineering husbands who need to change their patriarchal views. :confused:

 

To me marriage means compromise, sometimes on issues that may even be very important to one party or the other.

:iagree: :D

I think there is enough research on both sides of the issue to make the research argument null.

 

It seems to be that to circ a male child or not to circ is simply a parental choice. Neither wrong. Neither right.

 

I don't have a son and have no idea what I would do if faced with the choice of circ'ing or not circ'ing. I'd probably leave it up to dh as he is the one with the parts to make an informed decision.

 

I'd fight tooth and nail against a female circ for my dd. If dh felt that strongly one way or another about a boy baby's circ that would be what I'd go with.

:iagree:

I guess I'm not getting why a man's opinion on foreskins is irrelevant unless he's done exactly the same research as his wife. Does not the man's own life experience with/without/around foreskins matter? Especially when it seems the biggest argument against circ is that the child will grow up and have a lower life quality as a result of a lack of foreskin.

 

I guess we should also say that women have no right to an opinion about female circumcision, or rape for that matter, unless they have done X hours of research.

:iagree:

If I were my husband or any other caring father I would find this offensive. My husband DID research this with me, and we made the decision together. Our son is circ'd. Our son didn't flinch or cry when the ring was placed, and as it fell off and healed never had any noticeable difference in demeanor or fever, etc.

 

I feel like you have a JAWM view on this and didn't actually WANT to hear anyone's opinions that do not agree with your own. There is research on both sides of this argument, and as things stand now there is no strong facts pushing one side as the better. I'm sorry you can't seem to agree to disagree.

:iagree:

[TranquilMind]

Spy Car: I've seen it with my own eyes. Not a tear shed, not even a wince. The anti-circ zealots spread lies and untruths.

 

You know, not everyone who disagrees with you or had a different experience is necessarily an "anti-circ zealot".

 

I really hate it when people cannot tolerate opposing opinions without going all illogical and insulting.

 

I, for example, think there are definitely some reasons to circumsize and you can bet if I had the experience of another woman here whose son had problems and they had to circ at 11, I'd be on board with that in a heartbeat, if I had further sons.

 

I think there are good reasons not to circumsize as well. It isn't necessary and the child can do just fine without unneeded surgery in infancy.

 

We simply weren't presented with the pressure as we had home births. All was well so we didn't just jump in the car and go to the hospital to have our son done. And if we HAD had his penis circumsized, we would have done it on the 8th day, when the clotting factor is the best, not immediately or in a day or two, which is SOP right now.

 

Men are not stupid and uninterested on the topic, no matter how y'all might try to suggest otherwise. I don't know a single example of a father who wouldn't want the absolute best for his son.

True. My circ'd husband wanted the absolute best for our son so we kept him at home with us, doing well. He still is nearly 13 years later.

 

Unfortunately in the internet age we have fanatics who misrepresent the truth about things like circumcision and vaccinations and people get very passionate and emotional on the issues, but these are not passions based on reason or reality.

 

Right. You did exactly this with the "anti-circ zealots" and a few other comments. Physician, heal thyself.

[melissel]

I guess I'm not getting why a man's opinion on foreskins is irrelevant unless he's done exactly the same research as his wife. Does not the man's own life experience with/without/around foreskins matter? Especially when it seems the biggest argument against circ is that the child will grow up and have a lower life quality as a result of a lack of foreskin.

 

I guess we should also say that women have no right to an opinion about female circumcision, or rape for that matter, unless they have done X hours of research.

 

I'm not sure if you're replying to me or in general? If it's directly to me, then my answer is as follows:

 

I never said it was irrelevant in my first post. I actually said that if he had some reason other than "so we can look alike/because he might get teased/because it's what you're supposed to do/etc." that I would be in for discussion. That said, I don't believe in making permanent, surgical changes to a child's body unless both parents are in agreement. Kind of like the earrings discussion? And they're not even permanent. The no wins. Foreskins can be removed later, however incoveniently. They can never be put back on. And as the mother of the child in question, I do get at least an equal say in what gets cut off him, even if I don't have the parts involved.

 

If I were my husband or any other caring father I would find this offensive. My husband DID research this with me, and we made the decision together. Our son is circ'd. Our son didn't flinch or cry when the ring was placed, and as it fell off and healed never had any noticeable difference in demeanor or fever, etc.

 

I feel like you have a JAWM view on this and didn't actually WANT to hear anyone's opinions that do not agree with your own. There is research on both sides of this argument, and as things stand now there is no strong facts pushing one side as the better. I'm sorry you can't seem to agree to disagree.

 

Ooookay? And the person I was replying to doesn't have a JAWM attitude?

 

The anti-circ zealots spread lies and untruths.

 

I am very glad your husband did the research with you. That's great. I can only speak from my base of experience, and mine did not. Based on conversations about the topic with plenty of my female relatives and mom friends, their husbands did not--not until circ was brought up and the mom in question made it an issue and brought up the research. This doesn't make them uncaring fathers. I've seen them in action--they're great fathers. They were coming from a place of "Everyone does it, so we will too," not from a place of, "I've done lots of research on this and I still believe it's the best thing." That is MY OWN experience, based on the families I know, including my own and my DH's. As I mentioned upthread, one would never refer to either of our families as contemplative.

 

And this did not start out as a "what do you think of circumcision?" thread, so I don't know why you'd expect me to want to hear about others' circumcision research and experiences with an open mind? The question Stacey asked was "How would you handle if you or dh were against circumcision? Would you go ahead with something that permanently altered your child just because you wanted to defer to dh or vice versa?" I responded accordingly. I'm certainly not the only person here who responded strongly in the negative, so I'm not sure why I'm being singled out. In fact, now that I think about it, Spy Car actually jumped in with an off-topic answer and additional pro-circ responses in an attempt to change opinions, so now I'm REALLY confused as to why I'm being attacked :confused:

[SKL]

I'm not sure if you're replying to me or in general? If it's directly to me, then my answer is as follows:

 

I never said it was irrelevant in my first post. I actually said that if he had some reason other than "so we can look alike/because he might get teased/because it's what you're supposed to do/etc." that I would be in for discussion. That said, I don't believe in making permanent, surgical changes to a child's body unless both parents are in agreement. Kind of like the earrings discussion? And they're not even permanent. The no wins. Foreskins can be removed later, however incoveniently. They can never be put back on. And as the mother of the child in question, I do get at least an equal say in what gets cut off him, even if I don't have the parts involved.

 

Folks just keep talking like men are completely clueless about foreskins unless they've attended Foreskin 101. Several women here have been guilty of this. Personally I think men come into the game knowing more than women, at least about the life quality aspects, and women are catching up. I mean, seriously, men tend to think their "buddy" is about the most important thing on the planet. Give them credit where credit is due.

[melissel]

Folks just keep talking like men are completely clueless about foreskins unless they've attended Foreskin 101. Several women here have been guilty of this. Personally I think men come into the game knowing more than women, at least about the life quality aspects, and women are catching up. I mean, seriously, men tend to think their "buddy" is about the most important thing on the planet. Give them credit where credit is due.

 

Well, how would most circumsized men know anything about having a foreskin? How and when to retract, or not to? How to clean when you have one? I don't know about most adult men, but I know that in my family and DH's, it's generally considered "dirty" just having one. Yet, how would anyone know? They were all circ'ed at birth!

[Spy Car]

You know, not everyone who disagrees with you or had a different experience is necessarily an "anti-circ zealot".

 

I really hate it when people cannot tolerate opposing opinions without going all illogical and insulting.

 

I'm aware that not everyone who decided against circumcision is an anti-circ zealot. But I'm also very well aware of the misinformation that parents will run into when they "research" the issue on the web. Most of the anti-circ websites are detestable in their tactics which entirely misrepresent the truth. They attempt to stir passions with wailing baby videos and inflamitary language about "multination", "amputation", and tales of pain, torture and torment that bring hysteria to the subject, rather than reason.

 

I can see people looking at the "real evidence" (as opposed to the misrepresentation of the truth common in the anti-circumcision movement) and coming down on different sides on the issues based on a different sense of risk vs reward. But this is not the environment of reason that frames the debate today.

 

Bill

[Element]

My son is not circ'd and dd did not circ dgs. Her husband wanted to, but she presented information to explain her position and basically told him she wouldn't sign consent forms. It was not really up for negotiation.

 

I haven't read the rest of the thread but I just wanted to stop and say:

 

Stacey, I HOPE my dd grows up to have the same amount of confidence and security to do exactly what your dd did, presented with the same situation. Good for her!

 

I guess I was lucky: DH and I were easily on the same page on this issue.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Element

[beaners]

Folks just keep talking like men are completely clueless about foreskins unless they've attended Foreskin 101. Several women here have been guilty of this. Personally I think men come into the game knowing more than women, at least about the life quality aspects, and women are catching up. I mean, seriously, men tend to think their "buddy" is about the most important thing on the planet. Give them credit where credit is due.

 

Well, my husband had no idea exactly how it was done, and neither did I. I'll say that I was already opposed to it. He was indifferent until he read the description on a plain medical site (not an anti-circ site) of how it was performed. Not every man is fully supportive of circumcision.

 

As an aside, some people are surprised that this would be a hill to die on. I'm having trouble phrasing this without being offensive. For a lot of people it does fall in the same category as violence against a child. If you feel that way, how can it not be a place where you make a stand? Not everyone sees it that way. On the other hand, if you see it as life-threatening for your child to not be circumcised, how can you stand by while the procedure is passed up? If you have either of those views on circumcision, I can't imagine just deferring to the other parent.

[Parrothead]

Well, how would most circumsized men know anything about having a foreskin? How and when to retract, or not to? How to clean when you have one? I don't know about most adult men, but I know that in my family and DH's, it's generally considered "dirty" just having one. Yet, how would anyone know? They were all circ'ed at birth!

Not to argue with you or anything. But your post brought back a memory. When I was pregnant I did just the smallest bit of looking into the circ debate. I remember reading on the internet stories from adult men who had to be circ'ed later in life. It seemed to me from what I read that there wasn't a consensus about which state is preferred. Some men missed their foreskin. Some were glad to have it gone. I remember wondering how to make the best decision with so little emphatic evidence.

 

Then I had the 20 week ultrasound which showed without a doubt that dd was a girl and I promptly forgot about that research until today. :D

[melissel]

I'm aware that not everyone who decided against circumcision is an anti-circ zealot. But I'm also very well aware of the misinformation that parents will run into when they "research" the issue on the web. Most of the anti-circ websites are detestable in their tactics which entirely misrepresent the truth. They attempt to stir passions with wailing baby videos and inflamitary language about "multination", "amputation", and tales of pain, torture and torment that bring hysteria to the subject, rather than reason.

 

I can see people looking at the "real evidence" (as opposed to the misrepresentation of the truth common in the anti-circumcision movement) and coming down on different sides on the issues based on a different sense of risk vs reward. But this is not the environment of reason that frames the debate today.

 

Bill

 

Why do you assume that we are all the former and not the latter? I've never seen any of those videos, I've never been to the "no circ" sites, etc. I've read the research on both sides. And still I'm not convinced as to why it is done. Yet, you automatically presume uneducated zealotry on behalf of all of us. I would be one of those people looking at the "real evidence," as you say, and I've come down on the side I'm on, as have you.

[melissel]

Not to argue with you or anything. But your post brought back a memory. When I was pregnant I did just the smallest bit of looking into the circ debate. I remember reading on the internet stories from adult men who had to be circ'ed later in life.

 

But this is my point. I don't agree with taking away something that might never have needed removal. And there's no way to know how a man might feel about it later. Later on, it can be removed. Yes, it sucks, but it can be done. It can never be put back on.

 

Anyway, the whole argument is in the context of the earring discussion. Nearly every person on that thread said that the no wins. Earrings can always be had when the child is 18. IMO, there are much higher stakes associated with removing a foreskin.

[PeacefulChaos]

But this is my point. I don't agree with taking away something that might never have needed removal. And there's no way to know how a man might feel about it later. Later on, it can be removed. Yes, it sucks, but it can be done. It can never be put back on.

 

Anyway, the whole argument is in the context of the earring discussion. Nearly every person on that thread said that the no wins. Earrings can always be had when the child is 18. IMO, there are much higher stakes associated with removing a foreskin.

 

Has there been much of 'men wanting them put back on'? I've never heard of that before in my life.

I'm not saying that for debate, I just had really never thought about it.

[Spy Car]

Why do you assume that we are all the former and not the latter? I've never seen any of those videos, I've never been to the "no circ" sites, etc. I've read the research on both sides. And still I'm not convinced as to why it is done. Yet, you automatically presume uneducated zealotry on behalf of all of us. I would be one of those people looking at the "real evidence," as you say, and I've come down on the side I'm on, as have you.

 

But my dear, you did not say you'd measure the risks and rewards and come down on the side of not circumcising. Instead you called circumcision "brutal," which it is not. Not if done humanely, as should always be the case.

 

The benefits are multifold and it can be a life-saving choice. It is unfortunate that reason gets crowded out by resort to untruthful charges of "brutality" and other inflammatory language that simply stirs emotions rather than encouraging an objective weighing of the facts, and the risks and rewards of circumcising vs not circumcising.

 

Bill

[melissel]

Has there been much of 'men wanting them put back on'? I've never heard of that before in my life.

I'm not saying that for debate, I just had really never thought about it.

 

Some of the debate is concerned with removal of a large portion of flesh with many, many nerve endings and whether that is desirable when circumcision seems to generally be unnecessary (based on whose research you read, of course). Obviously, it's impossible to do a controlled study on sensation in this particular area :tongue_smilie: But for many people, it's more an issue of "Why would you take that chance if you don't actually need to?"

[SKL]

Not every man is fully supportive of circumcision.

 

 

I'm aware of that. As I noted, I've dated men who were horrified by the thought.

 

My opposition was to the comments that men have no right to a respected opinion until they have done the same research as their wives. That is basically saying that their lifetime of experience as a man does not carry any weight at all regarding decisions made for their sons. Honestly, I find it ignorant because if I were a mom of sons, I'd recognize that I need a man's perspective on the important decisions relevant to gender. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be entitled to my own opinion, but in this case, personally, I have already decided that I could go either way on the circ issue.

 

As for a circ'd man not knowing what a foreskin is? Hmm, you think they have absolutely no curiosity and no way of finding things out? They actually put effort into estimating whether theirs is bigger or smaller than average and various other things. If a circ'd man's lack of a foreskin does not concern him, that ought to tell us something - like, maybe this isn't a hill to die on.

[Veritaserum]

Has there been much of 'men wanting them put back on'? I've never heard of that before in my life.

I'm not saying that for debate, I just had really never thought about it.

 

Yes, there are men who would prefer to have a foreskin, but the choice was made without their input. The anger/frustration these men feel ranges from mild to extreme. My dh doesn't dwell on it and is satisfied with his circumcised state. Other men attempt what's called foreskin restoration, but they'll never truly regain what they lost. I know one of these men.

 

The males in my family are happily intact with no troubles. They know what life with a foreskin is like and the benefits of having one. I imagine my father didn't circumcise my brothers in part because he saw no reason to cut off a normal piece of anatomy--a piece of anatomy that he himself had experience with. My circumcised husband had only days with his foreskin. He had no idea of its functions because he's been without one for as long as he can remember. So between the two of us, I have more experience with foreskins than he does. :)

[melissel]

But my dear, you did not say you'd measure the risks and rewards and come down on the side of not circumcising. Instead you called circumcision "brutal," which it is not. Not if done humanely, as should always be the case.

 

The benefits are multifold and it can be a life-saving choice. It is unfortunate that reason gets crowded out by resort to untruthful charges of "brutality" and other inflammatory language that simply stirs emotions rather than encouraging an objective weighing of the facts, and the risks and rewards of circumcising vs not circumcising.

 

Bill

 

First, it is exceptionally condescending to call me "my dear." Are you kidding me with that? When did this turn into an episode of Mad Men? :confused:

 

Second, I did not say it was brutal. If you read my post carefully, I said that, in my 20s, before I had children and it became an actual concern, if circumcision even crossed my mind, it seemed too brutal to be voluntary. I knew next to nothing about circumcision, except that it meant chopping off a part of the body most important to pretty much any male. That was the whole point of that particular post.

[Spy Car]

Some of the debate is concerned with removal of a large portion of flesh with many, many nerve endings and whether that is desirable when circumcision seems to generally be unnecessary (based on whose research you read, of course). Obviously, it's impossible to do a controlled study on sensation in this particular area :tongue_smilie: But for many people, it's more an issue of "Why would you take that chance if you don't actually need to?"

 

But there have been repeated studies with men who have had foreskins removed in adulthood (which is not optimal) and they have all shown that the men had better sex lives and greater sensitivity after being circumcised or that there was no appreciable difference either way.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

First, it is exceptionally condescending to call me "my dear." Are you kidding me with that? When did this turn into an episode of Mad Men? :confused:

 

Second, I did not say it was brutal. If you read my post carefully, I said that, in my 20s, before I had children and it became an actual concern, if circumcision even crossed my mind, it seemed too brutal to be voluntary. I knew next to nothing about circumcision, except that it meant chopping off a part of the body most important to pretty much any male. That was the whole point of that particular post.

 

And what part of the phrases "too brutal to be voluntary" or "chopping of a part of the body" aren't inflammatory (as opposed to reasoned) language? This is exactly the problem.

 

Bill

[beaners]

I'm aware of that. As I noted, I've dated men who were horrified by the thought.

 

Sorry, I think that particular line was more of a response to something SpyCar said earlier in the thread.

 

I do believe that all parents have an obligation to their children to consider the risks and benefits of medical procedures. Experience does play a role in this, but I think it is wise to look at it from other angles also.

[Veritaserum]

Sorry, I think that particular line was more of a response to something SpyCar said earlier in the thread.

 

I do believe that all parents have an obligation to their children to consider the risks and benefits of medical procedures. Experience does play a role in this, but I think it is wise to look at it from other angles also.

 

True. When dh said "of course" he would want to circumcise, I looked into it. I'm not comfortable going along with anything "just because," especially with regard to medical procedures. Nothing is risk-free. So I researched it from both sides of the issue and came to the conclusion that the risks outweigh any potential benefits. Dh agreed with that when he researched it, too. He definitely did NOT research it until I asked him to because he accepted circumcision as normal and better since that's what was chosen for him. He didn't question it. I did.

[melissel]

As for a circ'd man not knowing what a foreskin is? Hmm, you think they have absolutely no curiosity and no way of finding things out? They actually put effort into estimating whether theirs is bigger or smaller than average and various other things. If a circ'd man's lack of a foreskin does not concern him, that ought to tell us something - like, maybe this isn't a hill to die on.

 

Good grief. Of course they know what a foreskin is. My point was, how would they know much about taking care of one, and what life was like with one versus without one? Is it a pain to take care of? Is it unhealthy? Is it dangerous? Will women run screaming from the room if I have one? Many men (no, not all, no one freak out) know nothing at all about foreskins if they don't have one. Heck, many doctors know nothing at all about taking care of foreskins!

 

Again, I refer to my wonderful husband, who, when asked about it years ago, would have told you that having a foreskin is dirty and unsafe. He wouldn't know this from experience, or from his brothers' experience, or his friends'. He would "know" this because that's what his mother told him.

 

You know, this whole conversation has really reframed the earring debate for me. I was originally in the "The no wins" camp. But since the child in question was a girl, and the mom is also a female, and we all know how, when we look good, we feel good, maybe the mom does have some standing to veto the dad's no. After all, the mom would know better how important earrings can be and how they can boost your self-esteem. Very likely, she's had earrings (or not had them) her whole life and knows how it feels to have them and be responsible for them (or not have them and feel self-conscious because of that). Maybe it SHOULD be the mom's decision to make after all.

[Little Nyssa]

I'm a nurse and part of my old job was to counsel parents about the risks and benefits of circ and let them make up their minds. I can tell you all the facts. Theoretically I can see both sides.

 

But when it came to my own DS, I said "Nobody's cutting my baby." DH wanted it, but not as strongly as I did not want it. DH accepted this. I think he knew better than to argue with a new mother. :D

[Parrothead]

Maybe it SHOULD be the mom's decision to make after all.

 

Don't hurt me for this.

 

What if the child in question is a boy who wants an ear piercing?

 

 

(Okay, go ahead :smash::smash::smash: away.)

[melissel]

And what part of the phrases "too brutal to be voluntary" or "chopping of a part of the body" aren't inflammatory (as opposed to reasoned) language? This is exactly the problem.

 

Bill

 

Oh my word. Are you even reading my posts? I'm not saying I feel that way now. I'm saying I FELT THAT WAY THEN. Before I was educated on the subject. When it was something that I would have considered only in passing. Not in relation to real children. I attended my best friend's son's bris, for pete's sake. I watched the whole thing done right in front of me. I supported her decision. If I thought that it was a brutal mutilation, I could not have stood there and watched.

 

I still don't believe in circumcision, but not for the reasons you seem determined to attribute to me.

[Julie Smith]

I think it is instructive that all the husbands mentioned in the thread (save one, who comes from a country where there is a strong cultural component against circumcision) support circumcision. There is good reason for this.

 

Bill

 

Is Canada a country where there is a strong cultural component against circumcision?

 

Because my husband did not support it. Neither did my brother, or the majority of males I know.

[StaceyinLA]

I haven't read the rest of the thread but I just wanted to stop and say:

 

Stacey, I HOPE my dd grows up to have the same amount of confidence and security to do exactly what your dd did, presented with the same situation. Good for her!

 

I guess I was lucky: DH and I were easily on the same page on this issue.

 

Thank you for that. I am very proud of her. And what is awesome is that the pediatrician in Hawaii where dgs was born was VERY pleased that they were not circumcising. The pediatrician here was also quite impressed. He is not a proponent. I think it was really good for her dh to hear them be so positive about the decision not to; it really reinforced it for him.

 

Oldest dd is already talking to her fiance about it. He's a softie though so I know he'll not want to do it once he sees the process.

[melissel]

But there have been repeated studies with men who have had foreskins removed in adulthood (which is not optimal) and they have all shown that the men had better sex lives and greater sensitivity after being circumcised or that there was no appreciable difference either way.

 

Bill

 

I said a controlled study. How exactly do you measure, beyond question, penile sensation? How do you control for factors like women who are not a little repelled by a foreskin? Greater sexual confidence and feelings of freedom because something that hurt you or was repugnant to you is gone? You can't.

[SKL]

How do you control for factors like women who are not a little repelled by a foreskin?

 

I never did understand this one, either. Maybe I beamed down from another planet.

[melissel]

Don't hurt me for this.

 

What if the child in question is a boy who wants an ear piercing?

 

 

(Okay, go ahead :smash::smash::smash: away.)

 

:lol: I thought the same thing as I posted that, but I was really speaking just to that thread, since that was where the whole discussion started. In reality, I still think the no wins in both cases (even thought I'd be all :confused: at my husband's refusal!). And the no did win in our house when DH (and his whole family) wanted to get DD9's ears pierced when she was a newborn.

Edited January 15, 2012 by melissel

[StaceyinLA]

Your opinion on the matter is appreciated, but, I can assure you that I KNOW circumcision is NOT a painless procedure.

 

Pain meds are NOT the norm. They are NOT always administered, and, even when they are, that process itself is not pain-free.

 

I have a friend who has been with her FIVE sons during their circumcisions on the 8th day (performed by a urologist). Several of them cried until passing out. All cried to the point of hysteria.

 

My nephew is a dr. He has witnessed MANY circumcisions. Babies are NOT silent. Many cry inconsolably for a time during and afterward, and some, indeed cry until passing out. How can we not think they would? Wouldn't you?

 

I just love how we can subject them to this and tell ourselves that they won't remember or it doesn't hurt. Maybe they won't remember, but let's not pretend that it doesn't cause them AGONY. THAT is spreading untruths.

[melissel]

I never did understand this one, either. Maybe I beamed down from another planet.

 

Which part? Why a woman would be repelled at the sight of a turtleneck sweater? :lol: I'll be honest and say there was a time when I might have been, just because I'd never seen one! It was totally foreign to me--I didn't even know foreskins existed until I was almost an adult :001_huh:

[Veritaserum]

Which part? Why a woman would be repelled at the sight of a turtleneck sweater? :lol: I'll be honest and say there was a time when I might have been, just because I'd never seen one! It was totally foreign to me--I didn't even know foreskins existed until I was almost an adult :001_huh:

 

And I was horrified/confused that dh didn't have his. ;)

[PeacefulChaos]

Which part? Why a woman would be repelled at the sight of a turtleneck sweater? :lol: I'll be honest and say there was a time when I might have been, just because I'd never seen one! It was totally foreign to me--I didn't even know foreskins existed until I was almost an adult :001_huh:

 

:lol: I WAS an adult before I knew they existed.

Want to know something funny? I didn't know whether DH was or wasn't. I had to ask. I knew nothing about the whole thing.

The first one I saw was as a nursery worker at church, changing a boy's diaper. I thought, weird... (of course, the only male parts I've seen are on my DH and my sons, aside from quick diaper changes in the nursery. So it is understandable that would be my reaction.)

:)

[melissel]

My nephew is a dr. He has witnessed MANY circumcisions. Babies are NOT silent. Many cry inconsolably for a time during and afterward, and some, indeed cry until passing out. How can we not think they would? Wouldn't you?

 

:( I know at least three babies who had problems with swelling and infection during the week after the procedure as well. That could not be comfortable either.

[SKL]

Which part? Why a woman would be repelled at the sight of a turtleneck sweater? :lol: I'll be honest and say there was a time when I might have been, just because I'd never seen one! It was totally foreign to me--I didn't even know foreskins existed until I was almost an adult :001_huh:

 

Well, there was a time when I'd never seen any of that whole package and the thought of it grossed me out - but mother nature has a way of fixing that problem. And the mother nature solution is formulated assuming uncut men. So . . . .

 

Though I knew about foreskins from the time I was a kid. My mom had three sons and talked about stuff like that along with other baby-related stuff. I also noticed differences in the little boys whom I babysat.

[Spy Car]

I said a controlled study. How exactly do you measure, beyond question, penile sensation? How do you control for factors like women who are not a little repelled by a foreskin? Greater sexual confidence and feelings of freedom because something that hurt you or was repugnant to you is gone? You can't.

 

One can't fully control such studies. The men "self-report" and most are positive or neutral towards sensation post circumcision. I can not envision a better methodology give ethical constraints.

 

One can grant that men who undergo adult circumcision (not optimal) might be more included to change their situation than "average" and that could be a factor. And the cultural response of women, some of whom might find circumcision preferable, could be a factor too. We live in the real world.

 

It seems from all credible studies that when it comes to sensation and satisfaction that it is pretty much a "push" either way. This makes the argument against circumcision on this point essentially moot.

 

Studies of American men show those who are circumcised report better and more varied sex lives than uncircumcised men. They have better hygiene and are afford better protection against a number of sexual transmitted diseases, have fewer infections, and none of the retraction issues uncircumcised boys face.

 

There are many upsides to circumcising.

 

Bill

[melissel]

:lol: I WAS an adult before I knew they existed.

Want to know something funny? I didn't know whether DH was or wasn't. I had to ask. I knew nothing about the whole thing.

The first one I saw was as a nursery worker at church, changing a boy's diaper. I thought, weird... (of course, the only male parts I've seen are on my DH and my sons, aside from quick diaper changes in the nursery. So it is understandable that would be my reaction.)

:)

 

:lol: I'm trying to picture the face of someone who opened up a baby's diaper and saw the unexpected...