Rambling Thoughts related to the daughter and feminism threads

[T'smom]

Ok- this is a total ramble but I can't stop thinking about these things after reading those threads.

 

Audrey mentioned on the daughter thread that she wouldn't wish being female on anyone and if she'd been able to choose her own gender, she wouldn't have chosen to be female. That really made me think, because I certainly wouldn't want to be male! She totally had a point about it being much more physically difficult to be female......but I'm sooooo glad that I'm the one that got to carry our children before they were born and I remember feeling sorry for dh that he was never going to experience that.

 

Someone mentioned on the feminism thread that men have to work a lot harder at getting custody of their children than women in the same situation.

 

I'm kindof feeling sorry for my son (and all the other boys out there). Girls get to do whatever they want. They can be princesses or tomboys without a lot of societal backlash. Girls can go to the store dressed however they want- but boys can't go in "girl clothes" (Well, they CAN....but you know what I mean) I can't even think of something that would be considered "boy clothes". I really thought that I allowed my son to do/be/dress however he wanted, but it wasn't until he had a sister that hairbows were in the house to be an option. It seems to me that the educational system is designed for girls. We're expecting longer attention spans and more sitting at younger and younger ages and it's not fair to the boys. (generally speaking) They get labels they don't deserve in higher percentages than the girls. And while it's absolutely wonderful that more women than ever are graduating from college......fewer and fewer men are.

If dh and I were to get divorced, he would have to fight for custody much harder than I would. I'm 99% sure I could get it. And it really wouldn't be fair because they're his kids too and he is a GREAT parent. At least as good as I am. I hope ds is never in the position of having to fight for custody of his kids.

Women and girls deserve to have equal rights. But as a society, I kindof feel like we're stepping on the men to get them. Like we can't build ourselves us without tearing them down. And I'm kindof sad about that.

 

Anyone else want to share some rambling thoughts?

[mirth]

Girls get to do whatever they want. They can be princesses or tomboys without a lot of societal backlash.

 

Not quite. Girls cannot aspire to be sent into field combat in the U.S.

[Joanne]

You left out historical patriarchy and that "we" are still operating under its effects. The choices you list are, in some cases, superficial compared to issues of power and control.

 

Custody? It is NOT like it used to be with regard to gender:

 

1. It's not automatic that the mom gets it

2. Many states have adopted a "as much time as possible with both parents" approach

 

I also think, maybe, you are downplaying the fact that being a "tomboy" still has ramifications.

 

I've mentioned this before, but when I provided daycare, it was the mom (although they BOTH worked) who always, always, always took off work for illness of their child/doctor's appointments.

[Catwoman]

That really made me think' date=' because I certainly wouldn't want to be male! [/quote']

 

Me neither. I'd feel very self-conscious in the high heels and makeup, and my feet would probably be really huge, so I'd have to do all of my shoe shopping online. Where's the fun in that?

 

And don't get me started on all of the shaving I'd have to do so I wouldn't look like a big old furry bear in a bikini, because I just know I'd be one of those really hairy guys... :D

[mlbuchina]

I agree with what you're saying. I feel sorry for boys, too.

 

I also feel sorry for my girls. What in all the world are the boys going to be like when they start looking for a husband? I shudder to think sometimes.

 

I guess I could be like my granddad was with his girls. He once told a boy who wanted to date one of my aunts that he could not take her out until he got a hair cut. He went and got a hair cut. :D

[DawnM]

Huh, I would have been perfectly happy to let DH have the pregnancies. Heck, he can have the monthly visitors too.

 

I love my children, but I hated being pregnant and the whole birthing process.....I guess I am an oddball.

 

Dawn

[SJ.]

Not quite. Girls cannot aspire to be sent into field combat in the U.S.

 

*Most* women can't meet the physical requirements but a * very small few* can - why not let them?

 

Here's a reason - maybe - once women are permitted in certain fields in the military there will be quotas, quotas which will then have to be met. Will standards lower to meet the quotas?

 

Sorry for the off topic nature of my post.

 

Respectfully,

Sgt. SJ, USMC, 1998-2003 :patriot:

:)

[Dana]

Huh, I would have been perfectly happy to let DH have the pregnancies. Heck, he can have the monthly visitors too.

 

I love my children, but I hated being pregnant and the whole birthing process.....I guess I am an oddball.

 

Dawn

 

I'll be odd with you!

[T'smom]

You left out historical patriarchy and that "we" are still operating under its effects. The choices you list are, in some cases, superficial compared to issues of power and control.

 

Custody? It is NOT like it used to be with regard to gender:

 

1. It's not automatic that the mom gets it

2. Many states have adopted a "as much time as possible with both parents" approach

 

I also think, maybe, you are downplaying the fact that being a "tomboy" still has ramifications.

 

I've mentioned this before, but when I provided daycare, it was the mom (although they BOTH worked) who always, always, always took off work for illness of their child/doctor's appointments.

 

I know the custody thing is getting more equal, and I'm glad of that, but I think we have a long way to go. My experience is obviously only ancedotal- but I've seen a couple situations where the mom wasn't a very fit parent, but she's got them anyway.

 

I think the ramifications of being a tomboy pale in comparison to those of being a "princess boy".

 

My dh once stayed home with our son when he was sick, even though his job was MUCH higher paid than mine, just because there was something special going on that I didn't want to miss out on at work. Dh's brother has stayed home with his kids when they were sick on a day that his wife had parent/teacher conferences (she's a teacher).

 

I'm a lot younger than lots on this board- I haven't known a time that women couldn't do *pretty much* whatever they wanted. I certainly have never felt that my choices were limited because I'm female.

[elegantlion]

Huh, I would have been perfectly happy to let DH have the pregnancies. Heck, he can have the monthly visitors too.

 

I love my children, but I hated being pregnant and the whole birthing process.....I guess I am an oddball.

 

Dawn

 

Standing in the odd corner with you.

 

If I had a choice, I would have been male too. I was a huge tomboy.

 

I find periods a pain and am praying for menopause. I gain weight and bloat and generally feel out of sorts for a week out of each month.

I hate being the gender that gains weight by looking at chocolate.

Childbirth nearly killed me (literally).

I really dislike having to wear a bra, and why didn't someone tell me to be extra careful about breastfeeding an equal amount on both sides. Seriously, I'm lopsided from breast feeding.

 

If men had periods there would be an automatic 1-2 vacation days per month. Just e-mail the boss that it's the "M" day and you get a free ride.

[T'smom]

Not quite. Girls cannot aspire to be sent into field combat in the U.S.

 

Ok- I was mistaken on this. That still leaves a lot of paths open to women.

[Joanne]

.

 

I think the ramifications of being a tomboy pale in comparison to those of being a "princess boy".

 

.

 

I think that's because it's less valued to be female.

 

 

A girl can have culturally boy attributes and be off the radar (or respected). A boy with "girl" attributes is noticed. It is, at least in part, because boys are valued.

 

In a different season of life, I play competitive tournament poker. Aggressiveness (selective ;)) wins poker. An aggressive female poker player is still a B. An aggressive male poker player? He's considered "good".

 

I see that play out over and over, in a lot of settings.

[T'smom]

Standing in the odd corner with you.

 

If I had a choice, I would have been male too. I was a huge tomboy.

 

I find periods a pain and am praying for menopause. I gain weight and bloat and generally feel out of sorts for a week out of each month.

I hate being the gender that gains weight by looking at chocolate.

Childbirth nearly killed me (literally).

I really dislike having to wear a bra, and why didn't someone tell me to be extra careful about breastfeeding an equal amount on both sides. Seriously, I'm lopsided from breast feeding.

 

If men had periods there would be an automatic 1-2 vacation days per month. Just e-mail the boss that it's the "M" day and you get a free ride.

 

There are certainly many, MANY things that I don't enjoy about being a woman- for me personally though, I thought it a small price to pay.

[Ester Maria]

Girls get to do whatever they want. They can be princesses or tomboys without a lot of societal backlash. Girls can go to the store dressed however they want- but boys can't go in "girl clothes" (Well' date=' they CAN....but you know what I mean) I can't even think of something that would be considered "boy clothes".[/quote']

Yes... Girls do have some advantage there... at 6, 7 years old.

 

Fastforward for about ten years when girls are 16, 17 years old and older? GONE is that advantage. Teenage girls and young adult women are in many families and communities - even in the very "enlightened" ones - held on a MUCH shorter tether than guys of the same age (in terms of curfews, the amount of "youth nonsense" tolerated, etc.). The world is still a lot more dangerous for girls in some aspects, and they are much more overprotected. A young boy getting drunk for the first time? pffff, no biggie, it is nearly a "rite of passage" in many people's minds. A young girl getting drunk? risks her reputation as a good girl, is labeled unstable, parental upbringing is questioned. Not to even talk about dating or, worse, sexual experimentation of older children and young adults. Girls are MUCH, MUCH quicker to lose their good reputation over things that are still traditionally tolerated for boys, because "boys will be boys". And here I am talking, yes, about secular Western societies, not religious enclaves. The general "chastity" and "life innocence" expectations are definitely not uniform for boys and girls. Boys have so much more second chances, so much more understanding as "developing young man" if they screw up along the way, while girls are often essentially ditched as "should have known better" (often exactly because of that stereotype of greater emotional maturity).

It seems to me that the educational system is designed for girls. We're expecting longer attention spans and more sitting at younger and younger ages and it's not fair to the boys.

Actually, it is not - the modality of learning, barring some really bad experiments in the last few decades, has not been significantly changed for centuries, and education was a male thing in centuries past. All that is expected of children today, behaviorally, was expected principally of boys in the past.

 

And even in the academic setting, I think that many boys tend to get a lot more "second chances" than girls, their immaturity is more easily forgiven... exactly because girls always "should know better". A certain amount of rebellion is even seen as charming in young boys, but the charm quickly wears off if the girls are in question (IME).

 

While I agree with some things you bring up, my experiences have generally pointed this other side to me too. I think girls are even nowadays much more restricted as to some tacit societal norms when they are older children. Even if they may be more "adorable" to everyone when they are 5-6 and in cute dresses. :tongue_smilie:

[Catwoman]

I'll be odd with you!

 

Count me in as being odd, too, although does any of us really want to deal with a pregnant DH? Can you imagine the whining??? The false labor -- every single day??? And as far as the actual childbirth goes, I'd have to be out in the waiting room with cigars or something, because otherwise I'd probably have to smother him with a pillow.

 

Just saying... ;)

[Bootsie]

I think that's because it's less valued to be female.

 

 

A girl can have culturally boy attributes and be off the radar (or respected). A boy with "girl" attributes is noticed. It is, at least in part, because boys are valued.

 

In a different season of life, I play competitive tournament poker. Aggressiveness (selective ;)) wins poker. An aggressive female poker player is still a B. An aggressive male poker player? He's considered "good".

 

I see that play out over and over, in a lot of settings.

 

:iagree: Why is it so funny in a movie for men to dress up like women? A woman doesn't get the same type of laughter when she dresses up like a man.

[Julie Smith]

Aren't girls and women more likely to be abused, sexually or otherwise then there male counterparts?

[sewingmama]

I like being a girl - that is how God made me and what I am supposed to be. I think both genders have their good and bad points that end up cancelling each other out. It's normal to feel like the "grass is always greener".

 

Not quite. Girls cannot aspire to be sent into field combat in the U.S.

 

They can in Australia or are about to be allowed to in any case (can't remember when the change came/comes into effect).

 

My DH was happy to let me be the pregnant one -he just doesn't feel like he was missing out because he didn't carry the baby. He loves our kids but like most males I've met if he had a choice between saving me or the kids he would save me. He just doesn't have the maternal instinct and doesn't miss it.

 

I have no desire to have a penis :lol: I prefer my own plumbing even if it comes with the burden of monthlies.

 

Aren't girls and women more likely to be abused, sexually or otherwise then there male counterparts?

 

As adults -yes. As children -no. I have read many studies that have stated that despite popular belief young boys are equally or often more likely to be abused then young girls. Boys will often hide it more though because they feel a bigger shame if they were abused by a man because it introduces the issue of homosexuality and so they won't admit to it.

Edited January 6, 2012 by sewingmama

[In2why]

I think that's because it's less valued to be female.

 

 

A girl can have culturally boy attributes and be off the radar (or respected). A boy with "girl" attributes is noticed. It is, at least in part, because boys are valued.

 

In a different season of life, I play competitive tournament poker. Aggressiveness (selective ;)) wins poker. An aggressive female poker player is still a B. An aggressive male poker player? He's considered "good".

 

I see that play out over and over, in a lot of settings.

 

Yes this!!!!! Men are competitive and powerful, women are *****es. I adore Tina Fey' s skit and own her rant about *****es get chit done.

[T'smom]

Yes... Girls do have some advantage there... at 6, 7 years old.

 

Fastforward for about ten years when girls are 16, 17 years old and older? GONE is that advantage. Teenage girls and young adult women are in many families and communities - even in the very "enlightened" ones - held on a MUCH shorter tether than guys of the same age (in terms of curfews, the amount of "youth nonsense" tolerated, etc.). The world is still a lot more dangerous for girls in some aspects, and they are much more overprotected. A young boy getting drunk for the first time? pffff, no biggie, it is nearly a "rite of passage" in many people's minds. A young girl getting drunk? risks her reputation as a good girl, is labeled unstable, parental upbringing is questioned. Not to even talk about dating or, worse, sexual experimentation of older children and young adults. Girls are MUCH, MUCH quicker to lose their good reputation over things that are still traditionally tolerated for boys, because "boys will be boys". And here I am talking, yes, about secular Western societies, not religious enclaves. The general "chastity" and "life innocence" expectations are definitely not uniform for boys and girls. Boys have so much more second chances, so much more understanding as "developing young man" if they screw up along the way, while girls are often essentially ditched as "should have known better" (often exactly because of that stereotype of greater emotional maturity).

 

Actually, it is not - the modality of learning, barring some really bad experiments in the last few decades, has not been significantly changed for centuries, and education was a male thing in centuries past. All that is expected of children today, behaviorally, was expected principally of boys in the past.

 

And even in the academic setting, I think that many boys tend to get a lot more "second chances" than girls, their immaturity is more easily forgiven... exactly because girls always "should know better". A certain amount of rebellion is even seen as charming in young boys, but the charm quickly wears off if the girls are in question (IME).

 

While I agree with some things you bring up, my experiences have generally pointed this other side to me too. I think girls are even nowadays much more restricted as to some tacit societal norms when they are older children. Even if they may be more "adorable" to everyone when they are 5-6 and in cute dresses. :tongue_smilie:

 

Hmmm, some interesting food for thought here. I had not considered the 'second chances' aspect and you have some good points.

 

I also see what you're saying about schools/education not really changing over the years- but did they expect 4 year old boys to sit still back then? Or not until 6 or 7? In my social circles, everyone is putting their 3 and 4 year old boys in preschool and bragging about how much "homework" and "seatwork" they have. They're doing that with the girls too, it just seems like the girls deal with it better. And I think some of those boys are being labeled as 'not being good at school' and are going to learn to see themselves that way.

 

I'm not really looking for any answers about anything personally.....just mulling some thoughts that were inspired by threads today.

 

Some of these responses have me LOL- pregnant dhs?!?!? Oh, my! My dh certainly doesn't envy my maternal role AT ALL. We wouldn't have kids if it were up to him to have them! I'm just enjoying my "mommy" role.

[T'smom]

I think that's because it's less valued to be female.

 

 

A girl can have culturally boy attributes and be off the radar (or respected). A boy with "girl" attributes is noticed. It is, at least in part, because boys are valued.

 

In a different season of life, I play competitive tournament poker. Aggressiveness (selective ;)) wins poker. An aggressive female poker player is still a B. An aggressive male poker player? He's considered "good".

 

I see that play out over and over, in a lot of settings.

 

That's a good point about people noticing boys more and that's why girls can "fly under the radar". But I really think the value thing is changing..... don't you? I often feel like the work of motherhood is not valued, but I think that's more of a "only money-earning is valued" rather than the work of women not being valued. SAHD are certainly not valued in society. Maybe it's because we don't value children.

 

On a somewhat related note, I've been noticing a LOT of people complaing of the cost of child care and pre-school and it really makes me mad. After listening to one sister in law I was practically enraged. I think babysitters/daycare workers/preschool teachers are worth their weight in gold (if they're good, if they're not good- what the heck are you sending your kids there for?!?!?!) People should be willing to pay what it's worth.

 

ANyway, interesting thoughts to chew on some more!

[Heather in Neverland]

Well I love being a girl. :D

 

I am super girly but also very strong. So I can use my feminine wiles to get what I want or I can throw my weight around like a man when necessary. So I think I have the best of both worlds.

 

Sure I could do without all the monthly nonsense but I would not want to be a man. Yuck.

[YLVD]

You left out historical patriarchy and that "we" are still operating under its effects. The choices you list are, in some cases, superficial compared to issues of power and control.

 

Custody? It is NOT like it used to be with regard to gender:

 

1. It's not automatic that the mom gets it

2. Many states have adopted a "as much time as possible with both parents" approach

 

I also think, maybe, you are downplaying the fact that being a "tomboy" still has ramifications.

 

I've mentioned this before, but when I provided daycare, it was the mom (although they BOTH worked) who always, always, always took off work for illness of their child/doctor's appointments.

 

Agreed

 

Also, I worked in the system a bit, and studied it, and learned something interesting. Women tend to get custody because they fight hardest for it. When men really fight it, they actually win custody most often

[YLVD]

Aren't girls and women more likely to be abused, sexually or otherwise then there male counterparts?

 

Yes, by far

 

The fact that women and children are victimized by men is something that really makes it more difficult for women. Sure, men are victimized but nowhere near the same rate.

 

Women are the ones always watching their (our) backs, with the fear of assault, etc