Saved: You are because of how you think/believe or You are because of what you do?

[JenniferB]

...and I'll reiterate my sentiments that justification by faith alone is danger

[mommyrooch]

Wouldn't we live in a far better world if people felt they'd be judged by the rightness (or wrongness) of their actions, rather than by how fervently they believe?

 

It would certainly appear to be a more just situation, no?

 

 

Bill

 

Yes Bill, I think it would. I think that this is how it was meant to be. Matthew 25 31-46 covers this. To me it is very clear that those professing to be God's children will be judged by the "rightness (or wrongness) of their actions." Not only by how strongly they believed. Heck, even the devil "believed" in God.

 

In fact, Matthew 7: 21-23 makes it pretty clear.

 

Matthew 7: 21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

 

I think it answers the question that was posed in regards to if there would be some (quote/unquote) Christians that really believed they were saved but on the day of judgement actually find out that they had fallen short of the glory of God. I think that there are many people in this world that believe they are Christians but have never truly become one with Christ. I think those people include deacons, pastors, moms, dads, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, neighbors & friends.

 

Not one of us can know a persons heart. We cannot know if a person is a truly a Christian or not. Only God knows that. I do think it safe to say though that there are some out there that think they are but in fact, are not. Otherwise, why would Jesus have warned us about that very thing as he did in Matthew 7:21-23.

Edited December 16, 2011 by mommyrooch

[Heather in Neverland]

Sure. But isn't it advantageous for us as a society (and that extends globally to mankind in general) that good and decent behavior towards our fellow man would be something those who believe in a creator-judge would be rewarded for (understanding no one is "perfect") and that people who behave poorly towards ones fellows (while perhaps convinced of his or her deep convictions of faith) would be found wanting for not behaving well?

 

James gets that. Paul IMO set Christianity off on the wrong path.

 

Bill

 

But see, we will be. Even Paul says "What? You think because you are saved by grace that you get a free pass to keep on sinning as much as you want? May it never be so!"

 

We WILL be judged by our actions...those who love the Father do the will of the Father. MANY will say "Lord, Lord"...many will CLAIM to be christians... but Christ will say "Get away from me. I never knew you."

 

Matthew 25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

 

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.â€

[milovany]

Paul IMO set Christianity off on the wrong path.

 

Bill

 

If it's all the same to you, Bill, I'll stick with the Church that sainted him, and canonized his writings. Please don't take offense. ;) That Church doesn't see the words of James and the words of Paul as in opposition to each other; it sees the "works" in the two verses as different kinds of "works" (one the works of the law, which we ARE set free from; the other the good works we are called to do in Christ and that are part of our salvation).

[Spy Car]

Yes, it would be a better world if more people felt they would be judged by their actions and feel accountable to a greater Being than themselves. God will judge our hearts and our works.

 

"Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

"For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Eccl.12: 13-14.

 

Well, I'd sort of hope more people would be moved by love rather than fear.

 

Jesus did say something to the effect that the two most important commandments are to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves, did he not?

 

If we act out of fear, and threat avoidance, I don't see how that is an expression of love.

 

And, if positive actions, good deeds, living in a loving fashion—call it what you will—is removed as a fundamental principal of ideal human behavior in favor of "belief" in isolation, aren't we losing something that is very profound?

 

Bill

[JenniferB]

...and I'll reiterate my sentiments that justification by faith alone is dangerous for Christian communities and by extension communities in general.

[MyLittleWonders]

Sure. But isn't it advantageous for us as a society (and that extends globally to mankind in general) that good and decent behavior towards our fellow man would be something those who believe in a creator-judge would be rewarded for (understanding no one is "perfect") and that people who behave poorly towards ones fellows (while perhaps convinced of his or her deep convictions of faith) would be found wanting for not behaving well?

 

James gets that. Paul IMO set Christianity off on the wrong path.

 

Bill

 

I think so (to your first statements; I'm not of the belief that Paul and James are at opposition or that Paul set Christianity off on the wrong path). See Matthew 25:31-46:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,

32 and all the nations* will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,

36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

37 Then the righteous* will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?

38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?

39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’

40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’

44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’

46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

To me, Jesus's words themselves go hand-in-hand with James.

 

ETA: I realized after posting that others had the same response. I apologize for repeating unknowingly.

Edited December 16, 2011 by MyLittleWonders

[Lovedtodeath]

Mommyrooch and Heather:

 

Romans 6:1,15 Thank you!

 

Carmen

[Lovedtodeath]

...and I'll reiterate my sentiments that justification by faith alone is dangerous for Christian communities and by extension communities in general.

I am wondering who you are arguing with? I don't see anyone saying that one can be justified and not have anything to show for it.

[Lovedtodeath]

Well, I'd sort of hope more people would be moved by love rather than fear.

 

 

:hurray::hurray::hurray:

 

Try doing a Bible search for the phrases "do not fear" "be not afraid" "do not be frightened" etc.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[mommyrooch]

Mommyrooch and Heather:

 

Romans 6:1,15 Thank you!

 

Carmen

 

Back at ya Carmen!!! :grouphug: I wish I had your cute smiley! :D

[Heidi]

Well, I'd sort of hope more people would be moved by love rather than fear.

 

Jesus did say something to the effect that the two most important commandments are to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves, did he not?

 

If we act out of fear, and threat avoidance, I don't see how that is an expression of love.

 

And, if positive actions, good deeds, living in a loving fashion—call it what you will—is removed as a fundamental principal of ideal human behavior in favor of "belief" in isolation, aren't we losing something that is very profound?

 

Bill

I've always been taught that to "fear" God means to reverence and love Him, not be afraid of Him. He is our Heavenly Father and He loves us no matter what.

 

And I don't know if you've read the thread, but it's a pretty united belief that works follow faith... I think only a small handful believe in just believing.

[Spy Car]

I would rather live in a community where people practiced good works.

 

That's what I'm thinking.

 

I'm not religious, but when I see people who are motivated by their beliefs to perform kindnesses, feed the hungry, teach the illiterate to read, or any of thousands of other loving acts I have to respect that, and acknowledge these people have tried to make this world a better place.

 

When good works seem almost condemned as "insufficient for salvation" and "by faith alone" becomes the credo, not so much.

 

Bill

[MyLittleWonders]

Well, I'd sort of hope more people would be moved by love rather than fear.

 

Jesus did say something to the effect that the two most important commandments are to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves, did he not?

 

If we act out of fear, and threat avoidance, I don't see how that is an expression of love.

 

And, if positive actions, good deeds, living in a loving fashion—call it what you will—is removed as a fundamental principal of ideal human behavior in favor of "belief" in isolation, aren't we losing something that is very profound?

 

Bill

He did. And I think that is so often forgotten. I also see fear as being an absence completely of faith. So, responding to God in fear, to me, means that one is not responding in faith. And, I think we are missing the entire point if one favors "belief" in isolation. To me, Jesus came very clear directions for how we were to conduct ourselves, which includes loving our neighbor as ourself, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, visiting the imprisoned, and giving drink to those who thirst. I do not see those commandments, if you will, as mere spiritual analogies, but rather tangible, concrete actions to do during one's life.

 

It's interesting ... I used to go to a church that pretty much believed in once saved, always saved. I definitely hung out with people in a Bible study that professed OSAS. I believed it too. Until I walked away. To use Asenik's analogy, I got off the bus in the middle of no where. I have since gotten back on the bus, though now I see things so much differently, at least I'm starting to see things differently. I had to remove the old lens, the one that was "by faith alone" and realize it is much more than that. To me, this is a journey ... not a one moment in time. Because if that is the case, my moment passed me by miles ago. I see too much evidence that it is not a one moment in time ... I think like others have said, this is where one must go to the beginning of the Church, to the Fathers of the Church and see what had been taught from the beginning and what is taught now ... I'm slowly learning. It is a different way of seeing things from the non-denominational vantage point of before.

 

And OP, I didn't vote.

[Lovedtodeath]

...and I'll reiterate my sentiments that justification by faith alone is dangerous for Christian communities and by extension communities in general.

Salvation due to works is dangerous for Christianity because then people don't truly have the Spirit that produces these changes in them. Believe me, I have seen this in action. Even though they are constantly reminded of the works that they should be doing, and reading scriptures that encourage these works and showing these fruits, a congregation without the Holy Spirit does not have that love and is not a good place to be.

 

There is also the tendency to blow ones trumpet ahead of them instead of doing things for our heavenly father in secret.

[Avila]

Well, I'd sort of hope more people would be moved by love rather than fear.

 

Jesus did say something to the effect that the two most important commandments are to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves, did he not?

 

If we act out of fear, and threat avoidance, I don't see how that is an expression of love.

 

And, if positive actions, good deeds, living in a loving fashion—call it what you will—is removed as a fundamental principal of ideal human behavior in favor of "belief" in isolation, aren't we losing something that is very profound?

 

Bill

 

 

I think that, ideally, love would always be the motivation. If we don't have love, we are no more than a clanging gong. Jesus says over and over, if you love me, follow me and keep my commandments. I don't know if it a maturiy issue or what, but most Christians that I know do follow Christ out of love and do good works out of love of Christ and love of neighbor, not out of fear of d@mnation.

 

I think several branches of Chrsitianity recognize this and don't rely entirely on belief in isolation. Jesus tells us in the parable of the two sons (Mat. 21:28-32) that it wasn't the son who told his father yes but the son who followed through with actions who really did the will of the father. And Jesus says over and over that we need to be following the commandments and doing the will of the father.

 

We can't satisfy the justice of God by ourselves. I don't think God puts aside his justice, but he does offer us his mercy and a path to salvation. In the end, we are called to have faith, become true disciples and followers of Jesus, endure to the end, and trust in his mercy.

[JenniferB]

That's what I'm thinking.

 

I'm not religious, but when I see people who are motivated by their beliefs to perform kindnesses, feed the hungry, teach the illiterate to read, or any of thousands of other loving acts I have to respect that, and acknowledge these people have tried to make this world a better place.

 

When good works seem almost condemned as "insufficient for salvation" and "by faith alone" becomes the credo, not so much.

 

Bill

 

Yes!

 

To answer Lovedtodeath, I'm arguing with an idea that I encounter often, "out there" in real life.

 

I apologize for my double post. I'm on my HTC phone and its acting up.

[MyLittleWonders]

I've always been taught that to "fear" God means to reverence and love Him, not be afraid of Him. He is our Heavenly Father and He loves us no matter what.

 

And I don't know if you've read the thread, but it's a pretty united belief that works follow faith... I think only a small handful believe in just believing.

 

The circles I ran in, though, saw works as "evidence" of faith, but that they had nothing to do with salvation. Salvation was purely by faith. One's works had nothing to do with it. So, yes, one should bear good fruit, but the fruit did not make nor break you. Only denouncing one's belief was evidence of lack of salvation, if that makes sense. (These were rather fundamentalist, literal, evangelical, non-denominational people.)

[Liz CA]

That's what I'm thinking.

 

I'm not religious, but when I see people who are motivated by their beliefs to perform kindnesses, feed the hungry, teach the illiterate to read, or any of thousands of other loving acts I have to respect that, and acknowledge these people have tried to make this world a better place.

 

When good works seem almost condemned as "insufficient for salvation" and "by faith alone" becomes the credo, not so much.

 

Bill

 

You put your finger right on it. When we have faith, there should be fruit. An example of that would be the things you mentioned. Those who sit on their haunches may be saved if they have faith but there is a missing component.

[Unscripted]

I have not read all of the pages... But wanted to respond- that I couldn't vote. As a Cathlolic- they are one in the same... Faith and works are synonyms to me.

[Spy Car]

I've always been taught that to "fear" God means to reverence and love Him, not be afraid of Him. He is our Heavenly Father and He loves us no matter what.

 

It is odd to my ears that "to fear" would mean one should "not be afraid."

 

And I don't know if you've read the thread, but it's a pretty united belief that works follow faith... I think only a small handful believe in just believing.

 

This thread, and much more. Before I knew anything about anything I found a very different message in the synoptic gospels and books like James than in the writing attributed to John and Paul. Later, I discovered I was not alone in that assessment. I think the differences do impact the world.

 

Bill

[Lovedtodeath]

To answer Lovedtodeath, I'm arguing with an idea that I encounter often, "out there" in real life.

Okay, I have seen this belief have damaging affects in real life too. :grouphug:

 

(and I also found that Paul wrote this):

 

Romans 12:9-21

Edited December 16, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[mommyrooch]

:iagree:Preach it sister!

:iagree:I am not so sure that I agree with the rest, because it makes me feel the need to clarify that I can try to imitate Christ and give to the poor and still not be saved.

 

Also, when Christ speaks of fruit, it is about the inner person, not about works. kwim? Splitting hairs...

 

I actually think we're on the same page. I don't think we're splitting hairs at all. ;) I agree with you. It's just very hard to explain on a message board.

 

I mentioned earlier that I do NOT think works alone will save us. I think that we could try to imitate Christ all day long yet still fall short of his glory. It IS our faith in Him that saves us. It is how that faith is often defined that raises the issue for me though.

 

It is all about our personal relationships with Him. I agree that it is about the inner person and not the works. I simply believe that if our "inner person" has truly become one with Christ then we will have the works as a result of that new found relationship with Him. In other words, it is not because of the works that we are saved. Yet it is because we are saved that we do the works. Does that makes sense?

[Lovedtodeath]

I actually think we're on the same page. I don't think we're splitting hairs at all. ;) I agree with you. It's just very hard to explain on a message board.

Yeah, that's it pretty much. Now I must do some works and take care of my kids. ;)

 

Thank you all for the discussion.

 

I am praying for you, JenniferB. Colossians 1:3-12

 

and I could use some myself too!:D

[JenniferB]

Salvation due to works is dangerous for Christianity because then people don't truly have the Spirit that produces these changes in them.

 

Yeah, I want it all. Faith, works/obedience, the Spirit, all mixing and mingling in a beautiful symphony to the very end. That's the ticket, God help me.

[Lovedtodeath]

Sorry, but Bill has to see this: Romans 12:

 

Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

 

20 Therefore

 

 

“ If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

If he is thirsty, give him a drink;

For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.â€[b]

 

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

[Heather in Neverland]

Yeah, I want it all. Faith, works/obedience, the Spirit, all mixing and mingling in a beautiful symphony to the very end. That's the ticket, God help me.

 

Stick with this and you will be fine. This is exactly what God wants from us too. :grouphug:

[Lovedtodeath]

Yeah, I want it all. Faith, works/obedience, the Spirit, all mixing and mingling in a beautiful symphony to the very end. That's the ticket, God help me.

:thumbup1::001_wub:

[Spy Car]

He did. And I think that is so often forgotten. I also see fear as being an absence completely of faith. So, responding to God in fear, to me, means that one is not responding in faith. And, I think we are missing the entire point if one favors "belief" in isolation. To me, Jesus came very clear directions for how we were to conduct ourselves, which includes loving our neighbor as ourself, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, visiting the imprisoned, and giving drink to those who thirst. I do not see those commandments, if you will, as mere spiritual analogies, but rather tangible, concrete actions to do during one's life.

 

That makes sense to me. So, this Christmas Eve, as most, I will go to midnight Mass at the Episcopal Church around the corne and—with no sense of irony—celebrate this philosophy and the man who tied to move people towards love and kindness towards our fellow man.

 

Bill

[Avila]

Several responded with statements that salvation is a *free* gift. Where does this idea of a *free* gift come from? When I read the Gospels it seems like its not free, but just the opposite, it costs us everything.

Matthew Ch.16:24-27 Whoever loses his life for my sake, take up your cross, rewarded for your works, etc...

 

I have one more analogy, and then I am done for tonight.

 

Let's say someone gives you a car. They buy it for you because they love you and you owe them nothing for it.

 

But to be able to use that car, you do have some things to do. You have to learn the rules of the road, pass the test, get your license, get insurance, get license plates, pay for a state tax or inspection fee -- and that is just to get started. Then you have to buy gas and oil changes and maintenance. The car was entirely free. None of the above changes that. But just because it is free does not mean that it doesn't involve some effort on our part AFTERWARD.

 

The analogy is not perfect, but it is what I can do this late at night. :D.

 

May God bless you, dear. I know you have a lot on your mind now. I hope something somebody said tonight helped you. I believe it is a journey, and we have to keep following and trusting.

[mommyrooch]

Well, I'd sort of hope more people would be moved by love rather than fear.

 

Jesus did say something to the effect that the two most important commandments are to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves, did he not?

 

If we act out of fear, and threat avoidance, I don't see how that is an expression of love.

 

And, if positive actions, good deeds, living in a loving fashion—call it what you will—is removed as a fundamental principal of ideal human behavior in favor of "belief" in isolation, aren't we losing something that is very profound?

 

Bill

 

Fear is not an expression of love. It is however a human emotion. As Christians we should not be driven by fear. However, we often times are because of our human limitations. That is where the "faith" comes in.

 

For example, I "fear" God on a certain level. My reasons are specific. In 1997 I lost my first son Tanner. I remember praying with everything I had for God to please save my son. Tanner died despite my prayers. This was an eye opener for me. It was my first hard and true lesson that just because I wanted something did not mean that I would get it. For whatever reason, it was not God's will for Tanner to live. That is where the fear and the faith come into play for me. I fear God because I know that he ultimately holds all of the cards. This causes my human emotion of fear to rear it's ugly head because my own vulnerability scares me. On the other hand though my "faith" in Him allows me to combat that fear because I have faith that His will for me is greater and better than my will for myself.

 

So you see, I agree with you that our motivator should be love. However, as humans we are often driven by fear. Fear is a human emotion that we all possess. As Christians though, it is our faith that should help us work through that fear so that our focus can be centered on love.

[Spy Car]

Fear is not an expression of love. It is however a human emotion. As Christians we should not be driven by fear. However, we often times are because of our human limitations. That is where the "faith" comes in.

 

For example, I "fear" God on a certain level. My reasons are specific. In 1997 I lost my first son Tanner. I remember praying with everything I had for God to please save my son. Tanner died despite my prayers. This was an eye opener for me. It was my first hard and true lesson that just because I wanted something did not mean that I would get it. For whatever reason, it was not God's will for Tanner to live. That is where the fear and the faith come into play for me. I fear God because I know that he ultimately holds all of the cards. This causes my human emotion of fear to rear it's ugly head because my own vulnerability scares me. On the other hand though my "faith" in Him allows me to combat that fear because I have faith that His will for me is greater and better than my will for myself.

 

So you see, I agree with you that our motivator should be love. However, as humans we are often driven by fear. Fear is a human emotion that we all possess. As Christians though, it is our faith that should help us work through that fear so that our focus can be centered on love.

 

I'm deeply sorry for your loss :grouphug:

 

Just to imagine the pain what it must be to lose a child brings tears to my eyes. I'm sorry.

 

Bill

[mommyrooch]

I'm deeply sorry for your loss :grouphug:

 

Just to imagine the pain what it must be to lose a child brings tears to my eyes. I'm sorry.

 

Bill

 

Thanks Bill. That's very kind and loving of you. It is truly appreciated. :grouphug:

Edited December 16, 2011 by mommyrooch

[anabelneri]

OP, I didn't vote. I'm in the Catholic camp... God loves us and our natural response to love is to love back. Honestly I don't really worry about salvation, I tend to focus on loving and being Loved. Jesus was pretty clear about how we should express our love... I think if I spent much time worrying about my own salvation I wouldn't have as much time to reflect on the face of God in his people and in his creation.

 

About the "fear of the Lord" part... in our religious ed program we tell the kids that "fear of the Lord" means to recognize that we are small and that He is big. It's not about being scared.

 

Other helpful reflections: this page talks about the Hebrew root and connects it to the Spirit that flows from God. This page is by a Rabbi reflecting on the phrase "fear of God".

 

:)

[milovany]

Honestly I don't really worry about salvation, I tend to focus on loving and being loved.

 

I love this. Salvation isn't a line we cross, but a life we live.

[MyLittleWonders]

Honestly I don't really worry about salvation, I tend to focus on loving and being Loved. Jesus was pretty clear about how we should express our love... I think if I spent much time worrying about my own salvation I wouldn't have as much time to reflect on the face of God in his people and in his creation.

 

I love this. Salvation isn't a line we cross, but a life we live.

 

I really like what both of you said. :)

[MrsJewelsRae]

Salvation is the realization that I am a sinner, and God is holy. But He sent His Son to pay the price for my sins, by fully accepting that Christ's finished work on the cross is the only way to forgiveness we can be saved. It is a free gift for all. Good works are done out of a fiull heart for Jesus, in obedience to God's Word, to please Him, but they are not a part of salvation, they come afterwards. There is nothing I can do to merit favor with God without faith in His Son. We love Him because He first loved us.

Edited December 16, 2011 by MrsJewelsRae

[Heidi]

It is odd to my ears that "to fear" would mean one should "not be afraid."

Bill

 

Check out websters 1828 dictionary under "fear" when used in a scriptual sense. I would copy/paste but I don't know how to do that on my phone yet. Basically it states that "fear God" means to reverence Him and worship Him and respect Him. It is NOT the same as "be afraid".

 

I agree thet fear (being afraid) and faith cannot occupy the heart at the same time.

[8circles]

I'm not even sure where the whole "once saved always saved" came into the discussion. That isn't "faith/grace alone" which are two different things anyway.

Edited December 16, 2011 by momoflaw

[ScoutTN]

So, God's gift of saving grace is bestowed on everyone no matter what they think/believe, or what they do? If not, then what? Who is it bestowed on, and why?

 

No. God chooses His people. The Bible is very clear that not all are saved. That is universalism and is not an orthodox (small o) Christian position.

 

There is no seeing into the mind of God, apart from what He has revealed in Scripture and in Christ himself. We cannot know who is regenerate and who is not. We can make our best evaluation based upon what we observe, but only God sees the heart. We see the visible church - those who claim to belong to Christ - but the invisible church is God's people across all time and space.

Romans 9-11 addresses this well. God chooses as He will.

[MrsMe]

Wouldn't we live in a far better world if people felt they'd be judged by the rightness (or wrongness) of their actions, rather than by how fervently they believe?

 

It would certainly appear to be a more just situation, no?

 

 

Bill

 

Absolutely not. Then we'd have a society who is proud, and feels they are better than the rest and works wouldn't truly be in their heart, but a competition that breeds narcisism.

[Tigger]

I couldn't really answer the poll because for me, as a Catholic, they both go together.

 

Me too.

[MrsMe]

Thanks, Carmen. But I think maybe this is still the part I don't understand. The sheep listen to his voice and they follow him. No one snatches them, but what happens if they are no longer following the shepherd of their own accord? Nothing from the outside can change their salvation, but what about from the inside? This is where the whole idea loses me, I think. Because I do believe in free will, and if I have the free will to choose God, then I should also have the free will to be able to walk away from him. Do people who believe in once saved, always saved not believe in free will? Or how does that work?

 

I am fascinated by this conversation, and I do appreciate the different POVs. Maybe especially the different ones. ;)

 

People who fall away aren't "truly" saved. (I'm sure someone will find that verse for me.) If you truly believed in Jesus Christ with all your heart, mind and soul, you couldn't become an athiest. That means you didn't truly believe to begin with. Another reason we stay in the word and we stay with like-minded people is to keep us on the straight and narrow. That doesn't mean we disassociate with people who are not Christians. That's where discipleship and missions comes into play.

[mytwomonkeys]

Absolutely not. Then we'd have a society who is proud, and feels they are better than the rest and works wouldn't truly be in their heart, but a competition that breeds narcisism.

 

i totally agree. christians are judgmental enough as it is about what they think is "right" & "wrong" (heck, people in general!). i can't even imagine upping the ante in that regard. the world could use a lot more grace, not righteous police.

[ma23peas]

That's what I'm thinking.

 

I'm not religious, but when I see people who are motivated by their beliefs to perform kindnesses, feed the hungry, teach the illiterate to read, or any of thousands of other loving acts I have to respect that, and acknowledge these people have tried to make this world a better place.

 

When good works seem almost condemned as "insufficient for salvation" and "by faith alone" becomes the credo, not so much.

 

Bill

 

If it were works alone, we would not 'need' our creator. If man created himself then surely works would get him gains, but we are talking about entering the Kingdom of Heaven...I think it makes more sense to honr our creator and the one who created the Heavens. The Hebrews who were seeking the Promised Land were refused entry because they believed as youdo, why do we need this God to get us where we want to go.

[DawnM]

I haven't read through the replies.....don't have too much time at the moment.....but I do think that one response follows the other.

 

If one believes that this God loves them immeasurably, then the actions of the one who believes will be to serve that God with all his heart, mind, and soul, and to love his neighbor as himself, which will include feeding the poor, giving to those in need, going to foreign lands as doctors, nurses, teachers, bringing not only the good news of this God but servitude to honor the one God he worships.

 

Does servitude bring salvation? No, but it is an outward act of believing in that salvation.

 

Dawn

[Avila]

People who fall away aren't "truly" saved. (I'm sure someone will find that verse for me.) If you truly believed in Jesus Christ with all your heart, mind and soul, you couldn't become an athiest. That means you didn't truly believe to begin with. Another reason we stay in the word and we stay with like-minded people is to keep us on the straight and narrow. That doesn't mean we disassociate with people who are not Christians. That's where discipleship and missions comes into play.

 

 

Thanks for answering. I think I am still missing something though. I honestly have never understood this, even while I was attending churches that taught it, so this may just end up something I personally don't get.

 

So how do you know if you are truly saved then? Can you know that before the end? It sounds like, to me, that you only know for sure that you truly believed if you have persevered to the end. The evidence of having truly believed is not a known quantity until you get to the end and have not turned away.

 

Lots of people think they truly believe and then later change their minds and don't believe. If the answer is that they never truly believed (even though, at the time, they were convinced that they did), then how can anyone be sure now that they are truly saved and that they won't turn away at some later time? How can one be sure that they are not deluding themselves?

Edited December 16, 2011 by Asenik

[ScoutTN]

I am wondering who you are arguing with? I don't see anyone saying that one can be justified and not have anything to show for it.

 

:iagree:

[SailorMom]

I didn't vote in the poll because I'm not Christian. However, I do believe in God and in some sort of pleasant afterlife...

 

So - here is my take on it, for what it's worth. In order to actually be able to be in the presence of God you have to be able to (in our puny little way) perceive him. If you do not live your life in a way that makes that possible, then how would you perceive God after death? I actually think that any sort of good behavior motivated by fear is way too childish - the way a parent would make a toddler behave - to perceive God.

Being a good person, doing good things, loving one another because we love God and WANT to be good people - that's the road to perceiving something more than ourselves.

The thing is - I think that you can only perceive God by being the kind of person who is doing and feeling the right sort of things. So - it isn't that God saves you or sends you south - it's that if you don't live your life in an attempt to be a good person - you don't have the capability of being in God's presence afterwards.

So - if you're living your life full of love, you would automatically do good things - good works - and I don't see how "faith" alone could be a possibility. To truly be the sort of person able to be in God's presence - you would not be able to help yourself but to do good works.

I also believe in a God that maybe offers second chances, but have no idea how that would work :)

[MrsMe]

That's what I'm thinking.

 

I'm not religious, but when I see people who are motivated by their beliefs to perform kindnesses, feed the hungry, teach the illiterate to read, or any of thousands of other loving acts I have to respect that, and acknowledge these people have tried to make this world a better place.

 

When good works seem almost condemned as "insufficient for salvation" and "by faith alone" becomes the credo, not so much.

 

Bill

 

First, IF one is truly saved, good works follows faith. It is an inner transformation. And that's what people miss as far as faith vs works. You ARE transformed. It's a process of sanctification. You see the vileness of culture. It sticks out like a sore thumb on every single level. You want to please God, because you truly see what Jesus has done for you, in your heart, mind and soul. It makes you weep. Good works alone will not get you anywhere, because what would constitute your works better over someone elses?

 

Take the 10 commandments. In "man's" eyes you see murder worse than lying. God sees it as you both broke the commandments. Man and his laws see's it as worse. In God's eyes you are no better than each other.

 

I want people to perform kindness, but it doesn't do anything for their sin...then, current and later. If you don't believe in your heart that Jesus died for YOUR sin, than works mean nothing. God says that at the narrow gate, "I never knew you". You want to be in that book of life! Without Jesus Christ none of it means anything. To make it simple Jesus washed away your sin on the cross through your faith in him. He took away that sin on the cross...God poured out every single person's sin in the world for every day of their/your life ever and Jesus felt it. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" If you don't have this faith that he did this, works mean nothing. You still have all your sin. It makes you no better than anyone else.