What is your definition of Patriarchal?

[AnnaM]

I never labeled our family but before I started reading about it I always thought patriarchal just meant a family that practiced Biblical submission and would have called us that if asked. But after reading here and seeing that people tend to make it a point to say that they are not patriarchal, I now wonder if maybe it is actually more extreme than what I thought? Is patriarchal strictly those homes in which the woman has no say or are there degrees of patriarchal?

 

I think it might be helpful for me to explain what I think Biblical submission is. For us Biblical submission isn't me mindlessly doing what my DH says with no say. We also believe that the husband is the spiritual head of the house. In the event of a disagreement we both get mutual "floor time" and in the event of a "tie" he breaks it. I willingly submit to my husband, are we patriarchal?

[Mrs Mungo]

I think the typical use of patriarchal is thinking of an arrangement that is more extreme than the one which you are describing.

[regentrude]

Patriarchal to me means any situation where the word and opinion of the man in the house has more weight than the word and opinion of the woman, solely because he is a man and she is a woman.

So, in that sense, yes there may be degrees of patriarchal. One extreme would be women who are not allowed to leave the house without a male. Less extreme would be if in case of different opinion the wife always accepts to her husband's decision as superior. Still patriarchal in my book.

 

If, as you say, you consider your husband "the head of the house", that sounds patriarchal to me.

Edited November 28, 2011 by regentrude

[laundrycrisis]

Patriarchal to me means any situation where the word and opinion of the man in the house has more weight than the word and opinion of the woman, solely because he is a man and she is a woman.

 

 

:iagree:

 

We also believe that the husband is the spiritual head of the house. In the event of a disagreement we both get mutual "floor time" and in the event of a "tie" he breaks it. I willingly submit to my husband, are we patriarchal?

 

To me, yes. You are following a system in which the male adult in the household has more authority than the female adult, for no reason other than his maleness and your beliefs about the natures of male and female roles.

Edited November 28, 2011 by laundrycrisis

[justamouse]

Anything other than willing submission to eachother-equally-is patriarchal to me.

 

Where he is the expert, I follow his lead, where I am the expert he follows my lead. Ties go nowhere-there is no tiebreaker.

[aggieamy]

Anything other than willing submission to eachother-equally-is patriarchal to me.

 

Where he is the expert, I follow his lead, where I am the expert he follows my lead. Ties go nowhere-there is no tiebreaker.

 

This is how my family works also.

[FO4UR]

I think one of the dividing lines between Patriarchal and Complimentarian is the idea that the husband serves as a Priest to the wife.

 

In a Patriarchal marriage, the husband takes sole *spiritual* responsibility for every decision made by himself and the wife. Therefore, every decision she makes has to be a decision he makes, and every decision he makes is a decision he makes. (That was a play on "What's yours is mine and what's mine is mine.:tongue_smilie:) Submission (in a Patriarchal marriage) means that she is not responsible (spiritually) for his decisions. If he decides to (insert immoral act here), then she is to do as he wishes regardless b/c it is he who will answer, not she. Headship means that the man interprets the Bible, and enforces it for his own family.

 

In a Complimentarian marriage, the woman has equal footing with God. The man is not her priest. She is responsible, in every way, for her own decisions. Gender roles still persist, but those roles are seen as equal. There is an essense of Headship, but the man does not usurp God's authority. The wife is a helpmeet, but part of that is holding her dh accountable in the eyes of God. Headship means that the man leads his family by being an example of a loving servant.

 

In an Egalitarian marriage, there is no distinction between the genders.

[Myeightkiddies]

Is patriarchal strictly those homes in which the woman has no say or are there degrees of patriarchal?

 

I willingly submit to my husband, are we patriarchal?

 

There are different degrees, and I would say that your family is patriarchal.

[AnnaM]

I think one of the dividing lines between Patriarchal and Complimentarian is the idea that the husband serves as a Priest to the wife.

 

In a Patriarchal marriage, the husband takes sole *spiritual* responsibility for every decision made by himself and the wife. Therefore, every decision she makes has to be a decision he makes, and every decision he makes is a decision he makes. (That was a play on "What's yours is mine and what's mine is mine.:tongue_smilie:) Submission (in a Patriarchal marriage) means that she is not responsible (spiritually) for his decisions. If he decides to (insert immoral act here), then she is to do as he wishes regardless b/c it is he who will answer, not she. Headship means that the man interprets the Bible, and enforces it for his own family.

 

In a Complimentarian marriage, the woman has equal footing with God. The man is not her priest. She is responsible, in every way, for her own decisions. Gender roles still persist, but those roles are seen as equal. There is an essense of Headship, but the man does not usurp God's authority. The wife is a helpmeet, but part of that is holding her dh accountable in the eyes of God. Headship means that the man leads his family by being an example of a loving servant.

 

In an Egalitarian marriage, there is no distinction between the genders.

 

Thank you this helps alot. I am not good at verbalizing these sorts of things. I would consider our marriage to be complentarian. While I consider my husband to be our spiritual head, I do not consider him to be the supreme authority to which I answer, that would obviously be God. My own personal actions are accountable to God alone.

Edited November 28, 2011 by AnnaM

[Mrs Mungo]

When people generally talk about patriarchal groups on this board? They are usuaally talking about a strict division of the sexes, a particular style of dress, a particular mode of behavior that exalts sons over daughters (sons go to college, but not daughters) and so forth.

[FO4UR]

Thank you this helps alot. I am not good at verbalizing these sorts of things. I would consider our marriage to be complentarian. While I consider my husband to be our spiritual head, I do not consider him to be the supreme authority to which I answer, that would obviously be God. My own personal actions are accountable to God alone.

 

 

I think it's a good thing to ponder b/c there is so much popular marriage advice "out there." All of it falls into one of those 3 categories...so it's important to know which category you want to be in so you know to take that advice or not. Submission, for example, has a WIDE variety of definitions. There is often a lot of guilt involved with it, an emotional appeal. It's too easy to get swept up with the desire to be a loving wife, and unwittingly get wrapped up in an idealogy that you would *logically* reject at the root. I know I've done it.

Edited November 28, 2011 by 3blessingmom
spelling LOL

[AimeeM]

Our home is patriarchal. My husband is the head of our home.

 

However, he often defers to me in areas. If he wanted to have final say in them, he could; but he more than recognizes that I am better suited to make decisions in some areas. What makes it patriarchal? The fact that he CAN make that final call, and I willingly submit to him if need be.

No guilt involved and we very much respect EACHOTHER. We simply prefer more traditional gender roles. Men and women both have incredibly important roles; but very different roles (in our home, not imposing it as a *should be*). It's how we both grew up. I sincerely believe that part of it is cultural, especially on his end. He grew up the son of Italian immigrants. His father worked, Mom stayed home; Dad was head of the home, although Mom certainly always voiced her opinion (loudly, lol); in the end, Mom did as Dad wanted, but not because of strong arming. We are very, very much the same in our marriage; his grandparents on both sides were the same.

My husband's mother died when my husband was only 11. His father never married again... never even dated. When we visit him, he is still very much in mourning for his beloved wife (over 30 years later).

I see nothing unhealthy about their marriage, and I see nothing unhealthy about my own. On the contrary - when most of the women in my homeschool groups are complaining about their husbands ("he won't watch the kids", "he thinks I sit around all day", "I never get a break"), my husband is the one insisting that Mom needs a nap, Mom needs to have a ladies night out, the two of us deserve a date night, and I often hear "Sit down Scooby, the dishes aren't going anywhere if you rest for the night".

Oh he can be annoying (God help him if he clutters my counter one more time); but he's a wonderful man and I think we have a wonderful marriage.

 

Technically, because I certainly will willingly submit to him if need be, we have a patriarchal home I suppose. I don't sit down and ponder it often, frankly. Lol.

 

I'm rambling now. Toddler had a late nap and I'm still awake. :tongue_smilie:

[Rosie_0801]

I think that word can be used in different ways. Apart from what has already been discussed, I might also use the word 'patriarchal' to describe a family that was predominantly men. My grandmother thought of her husband as the head of the family, which he certainly did too! I felt like it was a matriarchal family because they only had one son, who lived interstate, and four daughters, so it was a very female dominated atmosphere by virtue of numbers.

 

Rosie

[gardenmom5]

I can only think of patriarchal as the opposite of what I grew up with, which was a matriarchy. My grandmother was the matriarch, and my grandfather her submissive consort. everyone was expected to do whatever she wanted. she wasn't a happy person.

 

however, I don't believe the bible is that extreme in its defnition.

[happyhomemaker25]

Our home is patriarchal. My husband is the head of our home.

 

However, he often defers to me in areas. If he wanted to have final say in them, he could; but he more than recognizes that I am better suited to make decisions in some areas. What makes it patriarchal? The fact that he CAN make that final call, and I willingly submit to him if need be.

No guilt involved and we very much respect EACHOTHER. We simply prefer more traditional gender roles. Men and women both have incredibly important roles; but very different roles (in our home, not imposing it as a *should be*). It's how we both grew up. I sincerely believe that part of it is cultural, especially on his end. He grew up the son of Italian immigrants. His father worked, Mom stayed home; Dad was head of the home, although Mom certainly always voiced her opinion (loudly, lol); in the end, Mom did as Dad wanted, but not because of strong arming. We are very, very much the same in our marriage; his grandparents on both sides were the same.

My husband's mother died when my husband was only 11. His father never married again... never even dated. When we visit him, he is still very much in mourning for his beloved wife (over 30 years later).

I see nothing unhealthy about their marriage, and I see nothing unhealthy about my own. On the contrary - when most of the women in my homeschool groups are complaining about their husbands ("he won't watch the kids", "he thinks I sit around all day", "I never get a break"), my husband is the one insisting that Mom needs a nap, Mom needs to have a ladies night out, the two of us deserve a date night, and I often hear "Sit down Scooby, the dishes aren't going anywhere if you rest for the night".

Oh he can be annoying (God help him if he clutters my counter one more time); but he's a wonderful man and I think we have a wonderful marriage.

 

Technically, because I certainly will willingly submit to him if need be, we have a patriarchal home I suppose. I don't sit down and ponder it often, frankly. Lol.

 

I'm rambling now. Toddler had a late nap and I'm still awake. :tongue_smilie:

 

I love this! Our home operates much the same way. My husband is the deciding factor, but not in an overbearing way. He usually defers to my wants, but there have been a few times that he told me it just was not doable or best for our family at the time.

He's also super supportive of me. I get coffee dates with my girl friends more often then most women I know. He demands my kids respect me at all times. He is my protector and provider. I love it!!

[YLVD]

Patriarchal to me means any situation where the word and opinion of the man in the house has more weight than the word and opinion of the woman, solely because he is a man and she is a woman.

So, in that sense, yes there may be degrees of patriarchal. One extreme would be women who are not allowed to leave the house without a male. Less extreme would be if in case of different opinion the wife always accepts to her husband's decision as superior. Still patriarchal in my book.

 

If, as you say, you consider your husband "the head of the house", that sounds patriarchal to me.

 

:iagree:

 

I agree with all of this.

 

I'm very against any form of patriarchy and do not allow it in my life, or my daughter's life.

[SonshineLearner]

spam reported ;)

[AimeeM]

:001_smile:

I love this! Our home operates much the same way. My husband is the deciding factor, but not in an overbearing way. He usually defers to my wants, but there have been a few times that he told me it just was not doable or best for our family at the time.

He's also super supportive of me. I get coffee dates with my girl friends more often then most women I know. He demands my kids respect me at all times. He is my protector and provider. I love it!!

[simka2]

I never labeled our family but before I started reading about it I always thought patriarchal just meant a family that practiced Biblical submission and would have called us that if asked. But after reading here and seeing that people tend to make it a point to say that they are not patriarchal, I now wonder if maybe it is actually more extreme than what I thought? Is patriarchal strictly those homes in which the woman has no say or are there degrees of patriarchal?

 

I think it might be helpful for me to explain what I think Biblical submission is. For us Biblical submission isn't me mindlessly doing what my DH says with no say. We also believe that the husband is the spiritual head of the house. In the event of a disagreement we both get mutual "floor time" and in the event of a "tie" he breaks it. I willingly submit to my husband, are we patriarchal?

Yes, I would say you are Patriarchal.

 

We were once as well. My struggle is that it becomes very confusing and can over burden a dh. What happens when your dh is insisting on something that is unhealthy for you or your kids. Something that isn't "sin," but is devestatingly dangerous. (this was a situation I faced) We had different definitions of danger and as a result he wanted us to stay in a very unhealthy situation. I, out of a desire to submit "biblically" said my piece and then submitted to his decision (he did listen to me and acknowledge my fears, but in his wisdom he felt that staying the course was in our best interest). Eventually, this led us down a path of devastating consequences.

 

Please know I do not blame my dh!!!! We were both young and trying our best to be as "Godly" as possible. I feel that it was very unfair of me to put him in the position of ultimate decision maker!!!

 

We do not have ties. If we cannot agree it does not happen, that way we are equally responsible for our choices. We do a lot of compromising.

 

My dh is a negotiator by profession. He has often told me that in a good negotiation both parties leave unhappy.

[simka2]

Patriarchal to me means any situation where the word and opinion of the man in the house has more weight than the word and opinion of the woman, solely because he is a man and she is a woman.

So, in that sense, yes there may be degrees of patriarchal. One extreme would be women who are not allowed to leave the house without a male. Less extreme would be if in case of different opinion the wife always accepts to her husband's decision as superior. Still patriarchal in my book.

 

If, as you say, you consider your husband "the head of the house", that sounds patriarchal to me.

 

:iagree: This is my definition as well.

[AuntieM]

Biblical submission is mutual submission. Patriarchy, in the patriarchy movement exemplified by "the Dougs," is authoritarian submission.

 

Some key passages that have led me to a Complimentarian view of the marriage relationship include the repetition of Joel's prophecy in Acts Ch 2 (particularly vs 17-18), and Ephesians Ch 5 (which many use as prooftext for the patriarchal movement by focusing on the first few verses and neglecting the entirety of the passage).

 

IMO, you can have the Senior Partner (dh)/Junior Partner (dw) set up in a marriage relationship for decisions that are day-to-day operational decisions. That does not equal patriarchy. When major decisions need to be made, you sit down and make them together.

 

Simka makes an EXCELLENT point below about what I think is a huge danger of the patriarchal movement - the way it can make a man feel like a failure if he makes bad decisions, and a woman feel like she is disobeying God Himself when she really needs to step up to the plate (rather than lay down under it) in some areas of the marriage relationship.

 

Yes, I would say you are Patriarchal.

 

We were once as well. My struggle is that it becomes very confusing and can over burden a dh. What happens when your dh is insisting on something that is unhealthy for you or your kids. Something that isn't "sin," but is devestatingly dangerous. (this was a situation I faced) We had different definitions of danger and as a result he wanted us to stay in a very unhealthy situation. I, out of a desire to submit "biblically" said my piece and then submitted to his decision (he did listen to me and acknowledge my fears, but in his wisdom he felt that staying the course was in our best interest). Eventually, this led us down a path of devastating consequences.

 

Please know I do not blame my dh!!!! We were both young and trying our best to be as "Godly" as possible. I feel that it was very unfair of me to put him in the position of ultimate decision maker!!!

 

We do not have ties. If we cannot agree it does not happen, that way we are equally responsible for our choices. We do a lot of compromising.

 

My dh is a negotiator by profession. He has often told me that in a good negotiation both parties leave unhappy.

 

I have a wonderful, responsible husband. But for many years of our marriage, I let him make some really big decisions that, in hindsight, I should have weighed in on much more heavily. But, knowing that I am strong willed and desiring to be the "good Christian wife," I just stuffed a lot of my heart's desires and went along with no complaints. For about two years now I have had to work through 10+ years of pent-up bitterness. It has been a difficult row to hoe. A necessary row, but a hard one!

 

Someone here recommended some interesting podcasts - thatmomDOTcom, I think - on the patriarchal movement. You might want to take a listen. They will help you figure out just what type of relationship you have....IF you really need to know.

[FaithManor]

Anything other than willing submission to eachother-equally-is patriarchal to me.

 

Where he is the expert, I follow his lead, where I am the expert he follows my lead. Ties go nowhere-there is no tiebreaker.

 

 

This is why I our family does not follow a patriarchial mold. Dh and I do not subscribe to the idea that his opinion has more weight than mine based on his "plumbing" (as he would put it.)

 

We've never needed a tie-breaker. That's just not how we work. Maybe we are rare. We may be occasionally annoyed with one another, but having a fight is just not who we are. Neither do we feel the need to dig out heels in an be "right" at all costs.

 

So, I have to agree with justamouse as far as my definition of "patriarchial" goes.

 

These types of terms can be very difficult to create a mutually acceptable definition for in order to further facilitate objective discussion. There is a lot of subjectivity inherent in such a term. Those pesky adjectives! :D

 

Faith

[PeacefulChaos]

Our home is patriarchal. My husband is the head of our home.

 

However, he often defers to me in areas. If he wanted to have final say in them, he could; but he more than recognizes that I am better suited to make decisions in some areas. What makes it patriarchal? The fact that he CAN make that final call, and I willingly submit to him if need be.

No guilt involved and we very much respect EACHOTHER. We simply prefer more traditional gender roles. Men and women both have incredibly important roles; but very different roles (in our home, not imposing it as a *should be*). It's how we both grew up. I sincerely believe that part of it is cultural, especially on his end. He grew up the son of Italian immigrants. His father worked, Mom stayed home; Dad was head of the home, although Mom certainly always voiced her opinion (loudly, lol); in the end, Mom did as Dad wanted, but not because of strong arming. We are very, very much the same in our marriage; his grandparents on both sides were the same.

My husband's mother died when my husband was only 11. His father never married again... never even dated. When we visit him, he is still very much in mourning for his beloved wife (over 30 years later).

I see nothing unhealthy about their marriage, and I see nothing unhealthy about my own. On the contrary - when most of the women in my homeschool groups are complaining about their husbands ("he won't watch the kids", "he thinks I sit around all day", "I never get a break"), my husband is the one insisting that Mom needs a nap, Mom needs to have a ladies night out, the two of us deserve a date night, and I often hear "Sit down Scooby, the dishes aren't going anywhere if you rest for the night".

Oh he can be annoying (God help him if he clutters my counter one more time); but he's a wonderful man and I think we have a wonderful marriage.

 

Technically, because I certainly will willingly submit to him if need be, we have a patriarchal home I suppose. I don't sit down and ponder it often, frankly. Lol.

 

I'm rambling now. Toddler had a late nap and I'm still awake. :tongue_smilie:

 

I love this! Our home operates much the same way. My husband is the deciding factor, but not in an overbearing way. He usually defers to my wants, but there have been a few times that he told me it just was not doable or best for our family at the time.

He's also super supportive of me. I get coffee dates with my girl friends more often then most women I know. He demands my kids respect me at all times. He is my protector and provider. I love it!!

:iagree::iagree:

I'm with these two :)

In regards to ties/tie breakers...I can't even fathom that, sorry. We've never been so at odds about something that we had a 'tie' or needed a 'tie-breaker'. There have been times he was thinking about doing something and I was like nope, not a good idea, and he said ok...what if I did it this way? And I was like, yep, makes more sense. In all honesty, I probably call a lot of shots here, but I would still consider us patriarchal. I still consider him the head of our family. I'm just the CEO. :)

Edited November 28, 2011 by PeacefulChaos