Serious question for those who order directly from Peace Hill

[AimeeM]

Am I missing something? It seems like even with sales at Peace Hill, things are so much cheaper at Amazon (new Peace Hill Press items) and Barnes and Noble (online).

 

I would love to buy direct if someone can explain the price difference?

 

 

ETA: I'm not talking about "a buck or two" price difference here guys. I'm talking a 10-15 dollar price difference PLUS that of shipping (often free at Amazon). If I purchased SOTW, WWE, and FLL from PHP -vs- Amazon, I wouldn't be out a few dollars - I would be out upwards of $50 or so.

Edited November 27, 2011 by AimeeM

[plansrme]

I believe that the publishers make more money on a product if they sell it directly, and many buy directly from PHP, even if it costs a dollar or two more, to support them for making this forum available.

 

I could be wrong, of course, but that is why I buy directly from the publisher or manufacturer when I can. Of course I also buy HS materials from HS retailers like Rainbow Resources and the like, because I appreciate what they bring to the HS community. I suppose that I spread my tiny little bit around.

 

Terri

[AimeeM]

I guess my problem is that it isn't just a buck or two; it is often a ten dollar difference... plus that of shipping.

I understand loyalty, I just wasn't sure if I was missing something like a coupon or whatnot :D

I believe that the publishers make more money on a product if they sell it directly, and many buy directly from PHP, even if it costs a dollar or two more, to support them for making this forum available.

 

I could be wrong, of course, but that is why I buy directly from the publisher or manufacturer when I can. Of course I also buy HS materials from HS retailers like Rainbow Resources and the like, because I appreciate what they bring to the HS community. I suppose that I spread my tiny little bit around.

 

Terri

[MyLittleBears]

I wonder if it has to do with selling wholesale. Large bulk quanties for buyers like amazon and RR, maybe ???

[Jay3fer]

Being in Canada, I shop where it's cheapest to ship, which is usually Rainbow, because I can get just about everything from one source. However, I did buy the SOTW audio from PHP, even though I believe it's available from Amazon, because they take PayPal here. That might be a factor for others as well; paying a dollar or two more for the convenience of paying directly from a bank account.

[AimeeM]

Guys... it isn't a dollar or two. If it were, I wouldn't be asking.

Right now PHP is running a sale. Writing with Ease workbook 1 is on sale for $29 (normally about $35), Amazon regularly has it for around $22... and most of us get free shipping from Amazon.

 

I was just genuinely curious. I do very, very much appreciate the forum that they allow us, I just wondered if I was missing something... We're talking a significant price difference.

 

Please, no offense intended. I'm relatively new.

[jetted4]

I have not ordered from Peace Hill Press, but I can speak from my own experience...We (my husband and I) created an educational board game (Medieval Alliance); in talking with a distributor in order to figure out how to price the game, the info we got was that the creator of a product is expected (by the retailers) to sell the product at the list price. They don't want to offer your product if you are just going to undercut their pricing, so it's not good etiquette for the creator to list it for anything less than the retail price (which is the price point that is used to determine wholesale rates they pay you) . If a retailer (such as Amazon) sells in enough volume, they can afford to list your product for under the retail price (they may not make as much per product, but they move enough merchandise to make good profits anyway). All of this is why you can get better prices from Amazon than from the source. Unfortunately, I can say from experience that the amount the creator of the product gets to keep is quite a bit less if the item is sold through a distributor than if you sell it yourself; however, that's the price you pay for visibility.

[jetted4]

...I have an off topic/technical question...I keep trying to type my responses in as separate paragraphs, but when it posts, it all runs together in one paragraph. What do I do in order to keep the paragraphs separate?

[TengoFive]

I buy from PHP because I can get the pdfs and mp3s there.

[honumom]

I was curious about the same thing as well I will admit. I just ordered All About Spelling direct from AAS - and it was the same price pretty much as what I would have paid from Rainbow or other... in that case I preferred direct in order to retain the $ back guarantee, and use their support forum etc. Just last night I bought from PHP the WWE level 1 from their site... the price difference (which was substantial despite the sale) was a concern for me since my budget is tight. In fact, the difference was so great, I opted to buy the PDF version for direct download instead of the actual book. I could have got the workbook for the sale price elsewhere in it's original book form, however, other storefronts do NOT sell the student pages, which I really wanted !! ( I know they are in the workbook too, but really don't want to have to tear it apart or squeeze it in my copier) I'm really happy with the PDF purchase. I printed off the pages and got it bound today at officemax for $4! I'm sure the paper and ink was pricey to print the 174~ pages, but sure beat paying for shipping and waiting. Too excited to start !! Going to read the PDF from the ipad and hope my 2 yr old doesn't want to tear the ipad from my hands..... !! ;)

[Mama2Many4]

I buy from Peace Hill because I like to buy the pdf and print as many as I need for my children. Works out much cheaper for me.

[Classically Minded]

I buy wherever its cheapest for price and shipping. However, I do buy mp3's and PDF's of some of the material directly from Peace Hill Press because, as far as I know, you can't get those anywhere else.

[Carrie12345]

I want to support local farms, but can only afford to splurge on a few things there, and shop the rest at the grocery store.

I want to support PHP directly, but can only afford to splurge on some mp3s and pdfs, and shop the rest at Amazon or RR.

[jplain]

I buy from PHP because I can get the pdfs and mp3s there.

:iagree:

[FO4UR]

I want to support PHP.

[JudoMom]

I want to support local farms, but can only afford to splurge on a few things there, and shop the rest at the grocery store.

I want to support PHP directly, but can only afford to splurge on some mp3s and pdfs, and shop the rest at Amazon or RR.

 

:iagree:

 

I can't afford to buy all of my PHP products at the PHP site, but I do purchase mp3s and some PDFs.

 

I seem to remember SWB saying that the quantity sold at Amazon brings in a fair amount, even if the profit per item is less than items sold directly from PHP.

[redsquirrel]

No one has really answered your question about the 'why' and I will try. It is in part due to Amazon. They often set the sale price of books at a 'discount'. They don't really care if the author makes their money back on a book. The smaller the publisher the more power Amazon has to call the shots.

 

That puts a small publisher in a difficult situation: do they not deal with Amazon and get a reasonable return on their labor or do they increase their visibility but make almost no money off the book.

 

What I think happens is a publisher chooses to allow Amazon access to their work and they are forced to add a small price increase to what they sell directly. I am not talking the 10$ difference. I mean that 1$ or 2$ of the difference is part of that.

 

Amazon's price structure seems arbitrary to me. If a publisher is big they can call some of the shots. They did so on Ebooks. That is why ebooks are not coming down in price. But if a publisher is small then Amazon can pretty much do what it wants when it comes to pricing. It is possible that Peace Hill Press is earning pennies off an Amazon sale. So is Amazon, but I don't think they care. It is more about getting the business and hoping the customer buys something else with a better price margin.

 

Sometimes I buy directly from Peace Hill press. Some years I simply don't have the money. I guess it is about half and half. And you are correct that the price difference is a big one. It isn't negligible.

[Jim]

From prior research into book store operations I found the average markup was 40%. A publisher sells to the retailer (in this case Amazon) and makes a small profit. The retailer can sell it for list (which includes the mark up) or they can cut into their potential profit and strive for volume.

 

Amazon has the volume to cut deeply into their margin. The more they sell the more PHP makes. Both companies turn a profit. Publishers use retailers and their marketing efforts to push volume (and profit for both) so they can concentrate on their business, which is bringing books to market.

 

It's true that PHP, or any publisher, would maximize per unit profit is they limited the sale of their own product to their web site but the low volume would result in less absolute profit.

 

I spoke to an MP rep at a recent HS show and asked about any specials they were running - their prices were substantially higher than at the booths in the immediate area. The rep was strainghtforward and stated they were contractually obligated to sell at list prices (uinless the deal allowed for occassional sales) and that was the price they paid to have the wider representation enjoyed by the agreement with secondary sellers of their products.

 

In this regard, the book business is the same as any other business.

 

I make most, but not all, purchases through Amazon or RB. The purchase supports both organizations. PHP is making a profit since Amazon has to get the book from PHP.

[ChandlerMom]

If it makes anyone feel better...

 

One way of thinking about it is that the price of a book = cost + publisher profit + retailer profit

 

Whether you buy from PHP or Amazon, PHP gets their publisher profit. If you buy from Amazon, Amazon gets the retailer profit for promoting, maintaining, and shipping the book. If you buy from PHP they get to keep the retailer profit (though there is extra cost in doing that compared to shipping pallets to Amazon).

 

The kicker is, a lot of the direct purchases at PHP are undoubtably generated by the visibility of PHP products (such as WTM) at retailers such as Amazon. Most people discovered WTM thru a retailer and then found this site and discovered they could buy direct.

 

What exactly the terms of contract with the retailers PHP has, I don't know. But I agree it is profitable either way, else they wouldn't be in business.

 

ETA: I agree with buying from PHP directly for PDFs and mp3s makes sense, and I'd do the $1-2 but not the $5-10.

 

BTW, that's one thing I like about Apple products: they have always had such tight control on the pricing of their product. Sure, I'd like to get a "deal", but at least I don't have to worry about comparison shopping. :D With homeschooler's discounts (or Black Friday sale), the 10% off means ordering directly from Apple is a wash compared to ordering from an online retailer, 'cause the 'savings' gets paid to my state as sales tax. :lol:

Edited November 27, 2011 by ChandlerMom

[Susan Wise Bauer]

This is a good question, so let me try to show it to you from our end--and of course, you buy where you can afford to buy. This isn't a guilt trip, just an explanation.

 

Part of what makes the difference is whether or not a publisher has a national distributor. I'm not sure about AAS, but if you don't have a distributor, you sell only direct to bookstores and customers and you can set your prices wherever you want.

 

If you do have a distributor--Norton is ours--the books go from you to your distributor and from the distributor to the bookstore and THEN from the bookstore to the customer. Everyone takes a cut. And part of your deal with your distributor, who is paying salespeople to go out and promote your books, is that you don't undercut your distributor by using their salespeople to publicize your titles and then offering a better deal from your own website.

 

We make approximately 35% of the cover price of books we sell through our distributor to Norton to Amazon, B&N, etc. So when we set our cover prices, we have to start with the dead bottom of what we HAVE to make on the book in order to survive and pay salaries, and then add 65% onto that.

 

When we make more than 35% of the cover price--as we do when we sell direct to home school bookstores, or direct to customers, we have extra money for product development. This is one reason why the MP3 and PDF downloads are **only** available from our website. That's our book-writing money.

 

I buy from Amazon too, and as a reader I'm happy they exist. As a publisher, I resent the arm-twisting they do. Not only do they undercut other retailers by discounting (they rely on bulk to make money, although Amazon has been operating at a loss for YEARS--we can't do that because we don't have investors), but they total up your year-end sales and force you to pay a percentage of it back to them. They call this a "co-op advertising fee" and in exchange will link your products in that "Buy together" box at the bottom, or occasionally include one or two of your books in their targeted marketing emails. But they don't give you any choice. They just deduct the fee before they send your payment on.

 

We could, of course, sell direct to Amazon without using a distributor, and make something more like 45% or 50% of the cover price. But Amazon doesn't like to deal with multiple small publishers. Unless you use a distributor, they generally will not make your books available to ship within 24 hours--they typically will say "2-3 weeks"--in which case a lot of people will just go buy something else. There are other disadvantages too.

 

And it's impossible to TALK to anyone there.

 

So why do we HAVE a distributor? Because most large bookstores, all chains, most online retailers, and most foreign buyers will not deal directly with a small press. They will ONLY deal with a distributor. If you don't use a distributor, you cut yourself off from a lot of business. Plus the Norton salespeople are AMAZING book-loving well-connected folks who get our books all over the country, Canada, and the U.K. in a way we could NEVER do ourself with our little operation.

 

HTH,

 

SWB

 

P.S. Oh, yeah. Shipping. Amazon has negotiated special rates with UPS, FedEx and other carriers because of the bulk of the business they do. We can't do that. We pay huge $$$$$ for shipping, and it goes up almost monthly. We already take a loss on everything we ship, but we have to recoup some of that from customers or we'd operate at a loss.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Susan Wise Bauer

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Thanks for the explanation. I try to cut a lot of corners on my book buying budget myself, and Amazon was a huge blessing when we lived overseas with little access to English books.

 

But I also try to keep in mind that when SOTW first came out, I had a nice chatty call back from the PHP office to take my order. That's not service I'm going to get from Amazon.

 

So lots of library sale stalking for other books and direct from PHP when I can.

 

BTW, I saw The History of the Ancient World for sale at the Smithsonian Natural History Museum yesterday. It made me smile.

[AimeeM]

Why is it that Barnes and Noble sells (online, not in store) for prices comparable to Amazon?

I know there is probably an incredibly simple answer; I'm just not wide awake enough to see it. Lol.

 

This is a good question, so let me try to show it to you from our end--and of course, you buy where you can afford to buy. This isn't a guilt trip, just an explanation.

 

Part of what makes the difference is whether or not a publisher has a national distributor. I'm not sure about AAS, but if you don't have a distributor, you sell only direct to bookstores and customers and you can set your prices wherever you want.

 

If you do have a distributor--Norton is ours--the books go from you to your distributor and from the distributor to the bookstore and THEN from the bookstore to the customer. Everyone takes a cut. And part of your deal with your distributor, who is paying salespeople to go out and promote your books, is that you don't undercut your distributor by using their salespeople to publicize your titles and then offering a better deal from your own website.

 

We make approximately 35% of the cover price of books we sell through our distributor to Norton to Amazon, B&N, etc. So when we set our cover prices, we have to start with the dead bottom of what we HAVE to make on the book in order to survive and pay salaries, and then add 65% onto that.

 

When we make more than 35% of the cover price--as we do when we sell direct to home school bookstores, or direct to customers, we have extra money for product development. This is one reason why the MP3 and PDF downloads are **only** available from our website. That's our book-writing money.

 

I buy from Amazon too, and as a reader I'm happy they exist. As a publisher, I resent the arm-twisting they do. Not only do they undercut other retailers by discounting (they rely on bulk to make money, although Amazon has been operating at a loss for YEARS--we can't do that because we don't have investors), but they total up your year-end sales and force you to pay a percentage of it back to them. They call this a "co-op advertising fee" and in exchange will link your products in that "Buy together" box at the bottom, or occasionally include one or two of your books in their targeted marketing emails. But they don't give you any choice. They just deduct the fee before they send your payment on.

 

We could, of course, sell direct to Amazon without using a distributor, and make something more like 45% or 50% of the cover price. But Amazon doesn't like to deal with multiple small publishers. Unless you use a distributor, they generally will not make your books available to ship within 24 hours--they typically will say "2-3 weeks"--in which case a lot of people will just go buy something else. There are other disadvantages too.

 

And it's impossible to TALK to anyone there.

 

So why do we HAVE a distributor? Because most large bookstores, all chains, most online retailers, and most foreign buyers will not deal directly with a small press. They will ONLY deal with a distributor. If you don't use a distributor, you cut yourself off from a lot of business. Plus the Norton salespeople are AMAZING book-loving well-connected folks who get our books all over the country, Canada, and the U.K. in a way we could NEVER do ourself with our little operation.

 

HTH,

 

SWB

 

P.S. Oh, yeah. Shipping. Amazon has negotiated special rates with UPS, FedEx and other carriers because of the bulk of the business they do. We can't do that. We pay huge $$$$$ for shipping, and it goes up almost monthly. We already take a loss on everything we ship, but we have to recoup some of that from customers or we'd operate at a loss.

[melissel]

This is a good question, so let me try to show it to you from our end--and of course, you buy where you can afford to buy. This isn't a guilt trip, just an explanation.

 

Part of what makes the difference is whether or not a publisher has a national distributor. I'm not sure about AAS, but if you don't have a distributor, you sell only direct to bookstores and customers and you can set your prices wherever you want.

 

If you do have a distributor--Norton is ours--the books go from you to your distributor and from the distributor to the bookstore and THEN from the bookstore to the customer. Everyone takes a cut. And part of your deal with your distributor, who is paying salespeople to go out and promote your books, is that you don't undercut your distributor by using their salespeople to publicize your titles and then offering a better deal from your own website.

 

We make approximately 35% of the cover price of books we sell through our distributor to Norton to Amazon, B&N, etc. So when we set our cover prices, we have to start with the dead bottom of what we HAVE to make on the book in order to survive and pay salaries, and then add 65% onto that.

 

When we make more than 35% of the cover price--as we do when we sell direct to home school bookstores, or direct to customers, we have extra money for product development. This is one reason why the MP3 and PDF downloads are **only** available from our website. That's our book-writing money.

 

I buy from Amazon too, and as a reader I'm happy they exist. As a publisher, I resent the arm-twisting they do. Not only do they undercut other retailers by discounting (they rely on bulk to make money, although Amazon has been operating at a loss for YEARS--we can't do that because we don't have investors), but they total up your year-end sales and force you to pay a percentage of it back to them. They call this a "co-op advertising fee" and in exchange will link your products in that "Buy together" box at the bottom, or occasionally include one or two of your books in their targeted marketing emails. But they don't give you any choice. They just deduct the fee before they send your payment on.

 

We could, of course, sell direct to Amazon without using a distributor, and make something more like 45% or 50% of the cover price. But Amazon doesn't like to deal with multiple small publishers. Unless you use a distributor, they generally will not make your books available to ship within 24 hours--they typically will say "2-3 weeks"--in which case a lot of people will just go buy something else. There are other disadvantages too.

 

And it's impossible to TALK to anyone there.

 

So why do we HAVE a distributor? Because most large bookstores, all chains, most online retailers, and most foreign buyers will not deal directly with a small press. They will ONLY deal with a distributor. If you don't use a distributor, you cut yourself off from a lot of business. Plus the Norton salespeople are AMAZING book-loving well-connected folks who get our books all over the country, Canada, and the U.K. in a way we could NEVER do ourself with our little operation.

 

HTH,

 

SWB

 

P.S. Oh, yeah. Shipping. Amazon has negotiated special rates with UPS, FedEx and other carriers because of the bulk of the business they do. We can't do that. We pay huge $$$$$ for shipping, and it goes up almost monthly. We already take a loss on everything we ship, but we have to recoup some of that from customers or we'd operate at a loss.

 

Wow, Susan, thanks for being so upfront about all that. It confirms a lot of what I suspected about how Amazon does business and how hard small publishers can have it.

 

I'm so glad to have the PDF option. They work really well for me, and I'm going to splurge on some of the MP3s for myself for Christmas. I love being able to buy all of those directly from PHP. I'm so grateful PHP offers that option, for both our sakes!

[elegantlion]

Another reason I try to buy from the publisher when possible is because of updates. I ordered a Latin program from a third party distributor (I think CBD) and did not get the latest program. It was months before I realized it, the difference was on the DVD portion. I felt miffed about the whole thing, but realized CBD was only using up their existing stock. So if it's a matter of editions matching or getting the latest edition, I will buy from the publisher.

[UnsinkableKristen]

This is one reason why the MP3 and PDF downloads are **only** available from our website. That's our book-writing money.

 

 

Well, it sounds like I'll be ordering a lot more MP3's and PDF's! I love listening to the MP3's :)