Here's what I don't get about the "keeper of the home" thing

[anewday]

Great point. Can I ask - how are you teaching this? 'Cause I'd love for you to come to my house and teach ME too! Seriously - I struggle with this as well. I go through times where I feel very taken advantage of. Overall, I do know and understand that everything I do I do for God and my family. But, when it comes down to the nitty gritty of scrubbing the floors or toilets, the same gratefulness aren't there!

 

:grouphug:

 

I'm not sure I am teaching it! :001_huh: I think I need to model it better first. :blushing: Really, I haven't used any sort of home keeping curriculum per se, I'm not artsy, I have no flair with anything (except PMS LOL). It would be so nice if we didn't have to LIVE with our children so they could see all our glaring flaws, wouldn't it?! :tongue_smilie: Of course, I'm kidding, but oy...I so much want to and need to grow in this area.

[Kathleen in VA]

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/arn/pearcey/np_familyinamerica.htm

 

Since I mentioned Nancy Pearcey and the pre-industrial model of the integrated home, here are a couple of articles on those topics.

 

Jami

 

Wow, Jami, excellent articles - lots of food for thought. Isn't NP great? I wish I could express myself as well as she does.

 

I am going to have to really think this through - she makes some excellent points.

[Susan in TX]

By it's very nature, home keeping IS a giving and self sacrificing job.

 

I don't think that home keeping is a self sacrificing job. For me, working out side the home would be much more self sacrificing, but I can see how being a "keeper at home" might seem self sacrificing to someone who would rather be doing something else.

 

Susan in TX

[3lilreds in NC]

But I'm saying there's nothing unique or special about home keeping. You're putting it on a pedestal where it really doesn't deserve to be. If some aspect of home-keeping "sacrificial," you should make sure your sacrifice is needed, not that you're doing it just for the sake of sacrificing.

 

Way too many mothers work themselves to the bone doing things FOR others that others would, as often as not, rather that they not do. (My MIL, who is not Christian, is a PRIME example of this. Christian women just couch it in pious words.) It makes them feel good, but it's often at best neutral and often enough a negative in the family dynamic.

 

My aunt is another example of this. Very sweet woman. Very giving. But she does things FOR people and not WITH them, and she chooses the FOR from her own desires, not from the real needs and wants of those she intends to "serve." She's going to be so confused and hurt when she discovers that none of her kids valued what she did for them.

 

It's only a true "home-making" activity to spend hours sewing baby doll clothes if baby doll clothes are actually REALLY appreciated. Ditto for gourmet meals--if you spend hours in the kitchen every day and DH and the kids would just as soon have 5-minute meals, you're doing it for you. If that floats your boat, okay. But always keep aware of what really matters to the family and what just makes you feel good. And if you're one of those women who only feels good when she's making herself miserable through sacrifices--ayiyi! Find something ELSE to do, because it will only be a source of friction in your family as you try to push "sacrifices" onto other people that no one but you wants done in the first place!

 

Do you think you could come and explain this to my MIL? This is so her!

 

I shall post now because if I try to say anything else it gets to long and snarky.

[gardenschooler]

 

Even if I made an major effort to teach my child everything I know (from finances to planning meals, basic cooking, caring for the home, how to keep records, pick good produce, store linens, make homemade cleaners, scrup a bathroom property, treat carpets stains, polish silver, arrange flowers etc etc etc) I feel like I could do that in a few hours a week.

 

I don't understand why there would ever be an "either or" when the choice is an academically vigorious educations or homekeeping skills. It seems to me that anyone could have both, and quite easily.

 

I haven't really heard of this. I must be missing those threads. Even the most staunch supporters of having moms at home that I know are still raising their daughters with what looks to me like a very rigorous education, and not skimping. Maybe I don't really understand what you mean by "keepers at home".

 

I do think that some skills are best learned by example, as an ongoing kind of thing. Besides just chores, I spend time trying to do things that have an artistic bent when it comes to homekeeping, whether it's jazzing up a recipe or sewing something unique (yes, most things I sew look very 'unique' :001_huh:). I like to plant wild gardens and rearrange things and paint things funky colors. That makes it a great deal more fulfilling for me. Dishes and vacuuming don't fulfill me. :D

 

Time and money management, organizational skills, and how to fix basic things - now that I insist on teaching them. You can't get anywhere without that. But as far as other things, I only try to teach them how to do something if they're interested.

 

I remember calling my mother at age 21, asking how to cook a whole chicken. I was finally interested. :D (I had to call her again at 23, asking how on earth you bathe a baby - really. How embarrassing.)

 

Now I'll go read the thread. Looks like a long one.

[anewday]

I don't think that home keeping is a self sacrificing job. For me, working out side the home would be much more self sacrificing, but I can see how being a "keeper at home" might seem self sacrificing to someone who would rather be doing something else.

 

Susan in TX

 

Maybe I should have used the word "serving" instead of self sacrificing.

 

Either way, it doesn't mean I would rather be doing something else as a job. It means I need to learn to die to myself, which is never easy.

[gardenschooler]

Well, actually, the "job" of homeschooling certainly made "keeper of the home" more interesting for me! I think I would have been definitely challenged if my whole intellectual and professional interests were directed solely into house keeping. So I certainly want my children to have a vital intellectual stimulation, should they choose to be home with young children.

 

Same here. I was plenty busy when mine were young, but we started officially homeschooling when the oldest was 4. I needed to do something. If I hadn't done that, I would have probably pursued more education for myself in some way.

[anewday]

The excellent wife of Proverbs didn't fritter away her time emptying chamberpots. She made real estate deals and ran a cottage industry.

 

 

 

Are you arguing against specific aspects of home keeping being a waste of time in all cases, or are you making a case for time wasting in general?

[Reya]

Do you think you could come and explain this to my MIL? This is so her!

 

I shall post now because if I try to say anything else it gets to long and snarky.

 

My MIL is a very sweet woman. And she can't understand why I have to just about guilt-bludgeon DH into letting her come visit! :-P

[Reya]

I haven't really heard of this. I must be missing those threads. Even the most staunch supporters of having moms at home that I know are still raising their daughters with what looks to me like a very rigorous education, and not skimping. Maybe I don't really understand what you mean by "keepers at home". ...

 

I remember calling my mother at age 21, asking how to cook a whole chicken. I was finally interested. :D (I had to call her again at 23, asking how on earth you bathe a baby - really. How embarrassing.)

 

Now I'll go read the thread. Looks like a long one.

 

I've heard "our girls don't need math!" from more than one person. EDIT: Not here, but elsewhere.

 

My mother has never prepared a whole chicken in her life. I have. Like others said, it's not rocket science! I also taught myself how to bake and garden! My mom's brilliant. She's always had a REALLY clean house. She can also kill a silk plant from 30 paces.

[Reya]

Are you arguing against specific aspects of home keeping being a waste of time in all cases, or are you making a case for time wasting in general?

 

I'm arguing against A) make-work and b) against taking up work that you don't like and don't need to do (either you don't need to do it *yourself* or it doesn't really need to be done at all) out of either guilt or a martyrdom complex.

 

This would go for ANY work. For women, it tends to be housekeeping more than other things (like my stupid ironing!), but for an individual woman, it could be anything!

[Reya]

So not a return to a Victorian ideal which still promotes a private/public separation of spheres: male/female, business/home, world/spirit, public/private, but a pre-industrial model of the family working as a unit to meet their economic needs.

 

If your family loves that lifestyle, I'd say GO FOR IT! It can be a great way to draw a family together in meaningful activity. I'd be quite happy as a homesteader. DH hates that kind of thing, and when I once mentioned it, joking that he'd divorce me if I absolutely insisted on living that way, he said, "No. I'd still love you. But not very often, because I wouldn't be living with you!"

 

So do it because you ALL love it, not because it makes you a more Godly woman or whatever! :tongue_smilie:

 

My DH likes it when I dress up. So I do the Leave-it-to-Beaver high heels, pearls, and vacuum cleaner sometimes. It makes him happy, and I like to make him happy. It's completely nonconstructive and not something I'd bother with otherwise, but I do it for him because that what makes him happy, not because that's what pleases me.

[Reya]

I do think this also has somewhat to do with the verse(s) in Genesis that say woman was made to be a helpmeet for the man, though - not just the Titus 2 passage.

 

 

"Helpmeet" doesn't mean that she has to restrict her vision blindly to her husband alone, to depend on him, etc., etc. Think about what you'd look for in a good business partner--you're steering the ship the same way, rowing together, you don't have to ask for things to be done, a need is seen and fulfilled. You're not looking for a slave or a mere personal assistant and CERTAINLY not to a clinger but someone to truly work WITH! It's about someone focused on your goals with you, not obsessed over your person, if that makes sense. I see "helpmeet" in the context of a family working together as a unit, not just inside the four walls of its home but in the world at large!

[Reya]

:iagree:That is me to a T! The fact is' date=' it does make my husband feel loved when I put down the books for a while, bake him some homemade bread, make sure he has a matching pair of socks, and iron his shirt :). I think Edith Schaeffer's "The Hidden Art of Homemaking" has a lot to offer. I don't bake fresh bread all the time, but there is a reason that real estate agents put that smell or a cinnamon smell in a house they are showing. It smells "homey"! It is not all about saving money, though that helps. I find Reya's approach to be very utilitarian, yet I am not a "prairie muffin", Victorian romantic.[/quote']

 

If your DH cares about that, then that's a great thing to do! Mine doesn't give a flying flip. Okay, he likes the bread, but not nearly as much as I do, and not enough to have me make bread instead of spend time with him. I do that mostly for me, though of course I'd do it if he suggested it, too!

 

One of my "service" or "self-sacrifice" or whatever you want to call it points is to sit with him and rub his back as he plays a mind-numbingly boring video game. :) Service is about doing for others what others actually care about, not about what makes you feel like you've done the most.

[Reya]

Something funny I realized...

 

Today, I:

 

-Homeschooled

-Studied Latin

-Did research for my next novel

-Many hundreds of photocopies (kill me, please)

-Cleaned the house (about 75% to clean now...)

-Installed some shelves in a new wardrobe

-Scraped the floor in the hall where I'm about to install new flooring....

 

...and as I was scraping away, I realized that I was "keeping a home" in a way that you never see argued for. You see people (not in this thread, but I've met them!) earnestly assert the moral superiority of homemade clothes and declare that THIS is a wife's job, but no one who is a must-stay-at-homer ever argues outside of the most narrow gender roles. They never say that the wife should do the mowing and the car repair, handle the chain saw and swing the hammer. I've remodeled one house, and I'm working on my second, and with us DH is the occasional muscle and unskilled labor! I'm the one on my hands and knees, four months pregnant, scraping up ancient vinyl tile adhesive while DH gets time to snuggle his kid, play video games, and read bedtime stories. :-P Poor DH didn't know a phillips from a slotted screwdriver when we married and had scarcely driven a nail! I taught him how to use a chainsaw and a reciprocating saw, too! But isn't home maintenance a very real part of *keeping* any home, in the narrowest and most literal modern sense?

 

Too funny!

 

BTW, DH does most of the vacuuming in the family and cleans the dishes that don't fit in the dishwasher. I'm mostly taking out the trash now, and I do most of the home repairs. (There's a new garage door opener sitting in the garage, just waiting for me to get around to it, and I need to get to the gutters THIS WEEKEND, and the hedges are crying out to be trimmed...) I'll probably do our planned new kitchen addition with a baby sling strapped to my front!

[gardenschooler]

I've heard "our girls don't need math!" from more than one person.

 

 

I'm glad I haven't heard that.

 

I am familiar with the verse, btw. It just slipped my mind. :D Actually, my bible says 'busy at home' (NIV). I have heard the phrase bandied about, but I didn't know it was such a big movement. I don't hear the phrase often enough for it to instantly register.

 

I read a bit of some of the links offered here, and I just don't believe that's my interpretation of the bible. I don't believe women's 'sphere of influence' should be limited that way. Contributing to the household can certainly be interpreted as earning money in an outside job, in this day and age. That does not always, in every circumstance, result in neglect of the family and home. It just doesn't. I know many moms who work either part or full time and are a great deal more productive than I am in the home. (Gee, I'm not living up to any standards at this point, am I? :D)

 

The one person I know who is very adamant that her dd grow up to be primarily a wife and mother with no outside job is preparing her dd for college. (This mom has worked several p/t outside jobs, due to financial needs, btw - she's just a great juggler). The girl's schooling includes the higher maths and sciences, as well as several years of foreign languages. It could be that her motivation is that her dd will be very prepared to be a homeschooling mom, though - I hadn't thought about that. She has also had her dd spend many years on ballet and piano, as well as her own little homemade soap and lotion business, as a way to equip her dd with ways to make money when she's a SAHM (tutoring/teaching). This friend is also of the mind that her dd needs to continue living at home until marriage.

 

That works for her, and that's great, but it just isn't for us. I'd like my girls to go to college, have a career, get married, and then give me the grandchildren to homeschool while they have a little bit of time to do something they want to - whether it's work, further their education, or just have a breather to pursue anything at all. I'm sure they'll do nothing of the sort - really, who knows what they're going to do? I can try to prepare them for both, but in the end, what I want isn't going to play into it, even if I try to ingrain that now. If I were to ingrain anything, though, it would be college and a career, at least for a short time (but give me the grandchildren - no daycare!).

 

I will try to teach them how to do as many things as I can, but I imagine my girls will be just as clueless as I was. I'll be waiting for those phone calls.

[mommaduck]

I want to know where people are getting the idea about "gourmet meals" and "scrubbing floors" and "spotless toilets". Good Grief! I can't get on my knees to scrub a floor due to a bad hip...I use a mop and half the time my husband does it. I make everyone upkeep the toilet. And gourmet meals?! I'm STILL learning to cook (meaning sometimes I still bomb a meal and have to be rescued by Subway or sit at a table with a family laughing at what turned out). There is no victorian perfection here, but there is everyone learning to pitch in and learning the basic skills of life.

 

HOWEVER, as someone else pointed out...it's about BEING THERE for our families in a way that we couldn't be if we were working a 40hr week.

[Jami]

If your family loves that lifestyle, I'd say GO FOR IT! It can be a great way to draw a family together in meaningful activity. I'd be quite happy as a homesteader. DH hates that kind of thing, and when I once mentioned it, joking that he'd divorce me if I absolutely insisted on living that way, he said, "No. I'd still love you. But not very often, because I wouldn't be living with you!"

 

So do it because you ALL love it, not because it makes you a more Godly woman or whatever! :tongue_smilie:

 

My DH likes it when I dress up. So I do the Leave-it-to-Beaver high heels, pearls, and vacuum cleaner sometimes. It makes him happy, and I like to make him happy. It's completely nonconstructive and not something I'd bother with otherwise, but I do it for him because that what makes him happy, not because that's what pleases me.

 

I wasn't really thinking of homesteading as the goal, I guess. I think there are ways to consider what the pre-industrial integration of home and economic spheres looked like in a post-agrarian culture. Think of SWB and her husband and parents--running a business, sharing duties, and not necessarily agrarian (though I believe there are chickens involved). Or Crissy and her husband doing photography and digital imaging work together. I have no desire for an agrarian lifestyle, nor do I think it's more "moral", though I think there are arguments to be made for being producers of SOMETHING and not mere consumers.

 

I think the increase in small family-owned business because of the web-based technologies is encouraging, for those three years that my husband worked from home, I really enjoyed the level of integration in our home. Even though I had nothing to do with his particular work.

 

I don't have these things worked out in my mind. And in our home the domestic duties are pretty fairly shared, my primary work is educating our children and my dh's is to use his design talents to fund the enterprise (and fulfill his own calling).

[Reya]

I wasn't really thinking of homesteading as the goal, I guess. I think there are ways to consider what the pre-industrial integration of home and economic spheres looked like in a post-agrarian culture. Think of SWB and her husband and parents--running a business, sharing duties, and not necessarily agrarian (though I believe there are chickens involved). Or Crissy and her husband doing photography and digital imaging work together. I have no desire for an agrarian lifestyle, nor do I think it's more "moral", though I think there are arguments to be made for being producers of SOMETHING and not mere consumers.

 

Have you looked at the time commitments that typically go into running a small business? I've run them. They can eat your life for lunch and spit it out if you aren't careful.

 

My DH could make a fortune in his profession if he started a small business. But even if he was running it from home, I'd never see him for non-work-related things! Start-ups in his field require 80+ hour work weeks, dead minimum. The boss typically works 100-hr work weeks for the first three to five years. We're skipping out on that!

 

Many times, a 40-hr traditional work week allows families more time to spend outside of work together than any other arrangement!

[Reya]

I want to know where people are getting the idea about "gourmet meals" and "scrubbing floors" and "spotless toilets". Good Grief! I can't get on my knees to scrub a floor due to a bad hip...I use a mop and half the time my husband does it. I make everyone upkeep the toilet. And gourmet meals?! I'm STILL learning to cook (meaning sometimes I still bomb a meal and have to be rescued by Subway or sit at a table with a family laughing at what turned out). There is no victorian perfection here, but there is everyone learning to pitch in and learning the basic skills of life.

 

HOWEVER, as someone else pointed out...it's about BEING THERE for our families in a way that we couldn't be if we were working a 40hr week.

 

If you're at home and not working, you have to fill your time with something.

 

In the past, when every meal was extremely laborious, laundry took a day of solid, back breaking-labor, heat was cooking were done with coal, and there were no modern cleaning solutions or appliances, it could easily take a woman's entire time to just keep the house in order if she had no servants. (If she did, in the Victorian era, she typically busied herself with social rounds, sewing more clothes, and meaningless and often ugly handiwork. Ever seen the results of the craze for encrusting things in shells?)

 

Today, it takes no more than 20 hrs a week to keep a very large house immaculate and to put a freshly prepared meal on the table every day. Women have to fill their time with something. EDIT: I am putting this in bold because people seem to be skipping it. They have to fill their days up with something if they aren't homeschooling and no longer have a house full of babies!

 

So most women who don't work, at home or out of it, usually go one or more of these routes:

 

-The socialite route. They have lunch with friends several times a week, go see movies, chat on the phone--or do more social-climbing sorts of things by joining the right racquet club and hosting the right people.

 

-The ultra-homemaker route. They create insanely elaborate birthdays for their children or spend huge numbers of hours in the kitchen making extremely time-consuming dishes or make all their children's clothing by hand.

 

-The volunteer route. They fill up their days helping out at the church or with other groups.

 

-The disorganized, helpless route. They do very little that I can see from the outside and are always complaining about how much work it is, anyway.

 

There are a very few professions in which the socialite route for a wife is necessary for a husband to succeed. The rest of women are just playing with friends like they did in high school because they don't want to grow up.

 

Most of the work done by most uber-homemakers of my acquaintance is work that no one but them cares about. Many are secretly bitter about being unappreciated, but there really aren't that many husbands who care whether all their kids' sweaters are knit by hand or whether it took 3 hours of 15 minutes to make the dinner as long as it tastes good.

 

Volunteer work is worthwhile, of course, but is no different than holding a job in terms of commitments and amount of time away from the home. Many women seem to cling to the title of SAHM through this route. If it's what your family chooses--that is, your DH sees you as sort of the family contributor to good causes, if that makes sense--then great. But it's not "not working." It's just "not making any money"!

 

The aimless, helpless woman needs to be made to work so that maybe she can learn a little responsibility and might possibly be able to keep a house (on top of the job) because she'll learn to be organized and not dither so much. And if she still can't handle it, then she;ll have the money to pay someone who can!

 

"Being there" is an oft cited benefit, but of all the grown ups I know who had either working mothers or SAHMs or adult women I know now who are either one, I have yet to see ANY correlation between a warm, close family environment and a mother working outside the home, positive or negative. There are certain dangers to both--SAHMs are more likely to be smothering, while working moms are more likely to spoil their kids out of guilt about being away, so when things are bad, they are often different kinds of bad. EDIT: Another line people seem to be skipping. But I see no pattern that shows that the kids of working moms are the slightest bit worse off if she's working while they're in school versus her staying at home while they're in school. If "being there" was really so necessary, it would be easy to quantify positive associations statistically or at least observe them on a daily basis. It isn't there, and I'm saying this as someone who has chosen to work from home home myself!

[covenant.christian]

both sides of the coin.

 

I grew up in a VERY Betty Crocker type home; my parents had me when they were older, and grew up in the 1920's and 1930's, so it was very old fashioned compared to many of my friends around me. I mostly played with my cousins, and nearly all of our socializing and travel during my childhood was with my family-aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. So, I was brought up to stay at home.

 

Well, I have done that, and I have worked outside the home, and I am returning to college this fall. I have found the housework a bore, a chore, and I want it no more! (LOL)

 

But, I think there is more to teaching our children just the physical part of it (as stated)-doesn't everyone (men, women, teens, etc.) have a part of their work or life that becomes repetitive and a challenge to complete? I think when we teach the children housekeeping, we are not just giving them a mindless list of stuff to do-this is just a part of life. They need to learn (and it is difficult to teach, trust me!) that every day you will likely have to do something you find mundane, or repetitive, or boring. Maybe today it was balancing the checkbook, and tomorrow at work it will be making 400 copies and collating them, and the day after it will be mowing the lawn, and the day after that, it will be the laundry!

 

It is a part of our responsibility as adults to understand the mundane is a part of life, and to accept that.

 

I think one of the reasons it is difficult to teach this is because we have so little cultural support-"you stay at home? you do your own house work?, etc." And, our families are not near many of us anymore to support us, even just in their presence. Also, this world and our culture intentionally work against our trying to teach our children that home, with all of the blessings and responsibilities equally, is important.

 

Just my .02 worth. ;)

[swellmomma]

Something funny I realized...

 

Today, I:

 

-Homeschooled

-Studied Latin

-Did research for my next novel

-Many hundreds of photocopies (kill me, please)

-Cleaned the house (about 75% to clean now...)

-Installed some shelves in a new wardrobe

-Scraped the floor in the hall where I'm about to install new flooring....

 

...and as I was scraping away, I realized that I was "keeping a home" in a way that you never see argued for. You see people (not in this thread, but I've met them!) earnestly assert the moral superiority of homemade clothes and declare that THIS is a wife's job, but no one who is a must-stay-at-homer ever argues outside of the most narrow gender roles. They never say that the wife should do the mowing and the car repair, handle the chain saw and swing the hammer. I've remodeled one house, and I'm working on my second, and with us DH is the occasional muscle and unskilled labor! I'm the one on my hands and knees, four months pregnant, scraping up ancient vinyl tile adhesive while DH gets time to snuggle his kid, play video games, and read bedtime stories. :-P Poor DH didn't know a phillips from a slotted screwdriver when we married and had scarcely driven a nail! I taught him how to use a chainsaw and a reciprocating saw, too! But isn't home maintenance a very real part of *keeping* any home, in the narrowest and most literal modern sense?

 

Too funny!

 

BTW, DH does most of the vacuuming in the family and cleans the dishes that don't fit in the dishwasher. I'm mostly taking out the trash now, and I do most of the home repairs. (There's a new garage door opener sitting in the garage, just waiting for me to get around to it, and I need to get to the gutters THIS WEEKEND, and the hedges are crying out to be trimmed...) I'll probably do our planned new kitchen addition with a baby sling strapped to my front!

 

 

All those things are forsure keeping a home. I don't have time (or the knowledge) to make homemade clothes, but like you I do all the manual labor. In my case I would rather not have to and wish I could spend my time doing sewing etc, but there is no one else to do it. There is alot more to keeping the home than handicrafts and sewing etc

 

I am among the group of disorganized ones you listed in your last post in this thread. I work p/t out of the home to support us and still can't get organized enough. Saying that someone like me should be made to work to learn that is quite judgemental. With 2 kids with special needs that cause alot of destruction, a preschooler, an infant, me with ADHD everything is that much harder. I am home and wish I had learned as a child how to be a keeper of the home and learned those organizational skills etc as a child so they would e habit now rather than fighting the bad habits that I developed back then. I wish there was more hours in the day and as it is I have 1 night a week I pull an all nighter to get it all caught up. There is a real art to being a keeper of the home and knowing how to manage everything, from the grocery list/menu, to the cleaning, to the kids extra currics, to appts, to the yard work, add to that the schoolwork for the kids and still trying to squeak in time for personal learning. There is some who are born organized so it seems easy to them, the rest of us have to be taught, and imo the earlier the better. I do not however think it should be only the girls taught, my boys are learning too so that the can maintain their home too.

 

The level of disdain you have for those who see being a keeper of a home is upsetting. You come across in your posts as looking down on them as if they are beneath you. Much like many of the moms around my neighborhood who work f/t out of the house are to all SAHM. Just because you think it is all so easy does not mean it is okay for you to tell us tat those who chose this route are stupid (which you imply when saying it's not rocket science, and then your list of what you think sahm do to fill time). I know I have time in my day to do volunteer work, be a socialite or even follow my hobbies, the only sahm that I know do are ones that send their kids to public school so they have 8 hours a day kid free. I would love to volunterr, do hobbies etc but my days are never kid free and with no partner to switch off with at the end of the night I have my kids with me 24/7, being a keepr of this home is hard freaking work, rocket science or not, it's still hard.

[mommaduck]

Well excuse me...but MY job never ends! Homeschooling is not a hobby. I have 7 children. There is ALWAYS something to clean, feed, pick up, bathe, and add all the stinkin paper work that comes with bills, jobs, budgeting, and schooling. NONE of this is "filler". It all is necessity. Yes, I sew...but only when I have time. And I'm an organisation nut and have up a schedule...so definitely not your "mess" example. Simply the way life is when you have a large family and everyone is at home rather than the house being used as a place to eat and sleep and empty the rest of the day.

 

And what you have seen and what I have seen are totally opposite.

 

(and yes, I sound crabby, because I'm doing it all this week with a couple of broken or sprained fingers that hurt like all get out...but apparently I'm just "sacrificing myself for a hobby")

[Georgie]

can I ask who or what smokey is? I'm guessing the lawnmowers are goats?

Just wondering:D

[mommaduck]

LOL! The cat ;)

 

Yes, goats :) Gifts from dh's boss. They make yard work somewhat easier.

[Georgie]

:D We had a cat like that growing up. I love the goat idea.

[Reya]

I am among the group of disorganized ones you listed in your last post in this thread. I work p/t out of the home to support us and still can't get organized enough. Saying that someone like me should be made to work to learn that is quite judgemental. With 2 kids with special needs that cause alot of destruction, a preschooler, an infant, me with ADHD everything is that much harder.

 

Go back and re-read what I wrote!

 

You're:

 

-working p/t

-homeschooling

-AND housekeeping

 

That's not at home without kids or babies.

 

I assume you're doing at least one thing well, right? *g* What I'm explicitly talking about are moms without any kids in the house during the day who don't work and don't keep house, either. If you're not keeping your house, you're not a homemaker! You're just staying at home for no particular purpose. (Except, often enough, to be miserable and beat yourself up.) It's better that you do SOMETHING decently and perhaps learn to do the housekeeping, too, than to do pretend to be a 100% homemaker and really do nothing at all.

 

I do judge women who do nothing but pack their angels off to school at 8 AM and still can't manage to keep the house clean even though they're there alone for 6 hours a day with nothing else to do. That's not the lifestyle of anyone here, though--not with homeschooling. Homeschooling it at least a P/T job in hours of commitment. For some, it's F/T, depending on curriculum and # of kids. No one here has a single job that they just aren't doing.

 

EDIT: I personal loathe the socialite lifestyle--the one required to promote DH's work--but I don't look down on it. It's necessary for some families, and it's better to enjoy a necessity than to hate it! Those who just hang out with their friends like they're in 5th grade--yes, that I look down on. I've yet to meet a woman like that who is interesting to talk to, and it always puzzles me how anyone could stand to be in a marriage with someone who is that gossipy and BORING. As far as uber-homemaking is concerned, that's fine, as long as you realize that you're doing a lot of it for YOU and you DH is fine with that. There isn't 1 man in 20 who really wants that. If he does and you do, okay. Otherwise, yes, the handweaving is totally cool, but it's a hobby, not housekeeping. Many volunteers are fascinating, experienced, and intelligent women--but like I said, it's still really working in another guise!

[Reya]

Well excuse me...but MY job never ends! Homeschooling is not a hobby. I have 7 children. There is ALWAYS something to clean, feed, pick up, bathe, and add all the stinkin paper work that comes with bills, jobs, budgeting, and schooling. NONE of this is "filler". It all is necessity. Yes, I sew...but only when I have time. And I'm an organisation nut and have up a schedule...so definitely not your "mess" example. Simply the way life is when you have a large family and everyone is at home rather than the house being used as a place to eat and sleep and empty the rest of the day.

 

You're also, dare I say, HOMESCHOOLING! Of course you're busy! Homeschooling, like volunteering, is working, even if it's not income-generating. Please, please read what I wrote--I wrote about the moms whose kids are all in school during the day. I don't care HOW many kids you have. If they're gone most of the day, you don't have that much work.

[mommaduck]

Okay, I just thought I read in the thread where people were filling their days with homeschooling as though it was some sort of joyous hobby. It's not. I can find joy in it, but it's a lot of work. Having tots running around is a lot of work. And true...big difference between a houseful that actually use the house than for women who are home alone all day. I know I used to have an immaculate house when my oldest two were little (and I worked pt, but the children were always home with one of us). And I know one day I will have an immaculate house again...and will miss all the happy squeals and mad dash chasing that goes one.

 

Sorry for being a crank.

[Reya]

Okay, I just thought I read in the thread where people were filling their days with homeschooling as though it was some sort of joyous hobby. It's not. I can find joy in it, but it's a lot of work. Having tots running around is a lot of work. And true...big difference between a houseful that actually use the house than for women who are home alone all day. I know I used to have an immaculate house when my oldest two were little (and I worked pt, but the children were always home with one of us). And I know one day I will have an immaculate house again...and will miss all the happy squeals and mad dash chasing that goes one.

 

Sorry for being a crank.

 

Oh, no! I don't think homeschooling is a hobby. I don't think volunteering is a hobby, either. To me, a hobby is something that one does not just not out of dire need but also is something that is fundamentally not productive in a way that justifies the time spent on it.

 

Making clothes today is a hobby because a careful shopper can spend both less money and less time on quality clothing than it takes to make them from scratch.

 

Homeschooling is not a hobby because it cannot be replicated with equal or near equal outcomes for less time and money. Ditto with volunteering. Volunteering is a choice but not a hobby.

 

I hope that clears it up!

 

Don't work about being a crank--doesn't bother me in the least! :-) I'd deserve it if you thought I'd written what I had.

 

(There's actually a funny story about hobbies in our house. DH and I had been married just 6 months, and I was 6 months pregnant with our wedding night special, living in a 3rd floor apt. DH has ALWAYS been careless about taking out the trash--which is why I do it now--and it was overflowing and stinking, so I asked him to take care of it. He blinked at me and blurted, "Why don't you do it? After all, cleaning is *your* hobby!" He survived that, barely, but from then on, any unpleasant task we ask the other to do had "because it's your hobby!" attached to it. :-P DH thought of cleaning as a "hobby" because, well, he grew up in a pit of filth, pretty much, and didn't see a need for all this cleanliness. Didn't come to appreciate things like clean counters and non-stinking toilets for several years into the marriage. If he ever starts putting his laundry in the basket, I'll let you know, but I'm just happy that he changes underwear every day now! *g*)

[mommaduck]

LOL @ housework = hobby!

 

I know some people have thought that having babies was my "hobby"...nope, for this much work, these kids are my social security ;)

[Jugglin'5]

Reya-

 

I get what you are saying about doing things that no one else wants and then feeling unappreciated. I dare say that also happens with non-sahms who feel that their income is unappreciated. There are always some people who want to make others feel guilty.

 

I also know ladies that spend all their time sewing matching outfits for all their kids whose homes are otherwise a wreck, to husbands' dissatisfaction. I would never defend that.

 

What seems to be missing in your view to me, and I may be misunderstanding you, is the value of creativity, beauty, peace, atmosphere, etc in the home that has no monetary or material value. Most humans crave these things even if they don't have any sort of practical or quantifiable value.

[Reya]

What seems to be missing in your view to me' date=' and I may be misunderstanding you, is the value of creativity, beauty, peace, atmosphere, etc in the home that has no monetary or material value. Most humans crave these things even if they don't have any sort of practical or quantifiable value.[/quote']

 

My point isn't that creativity and beauty is bad but that one person's creativity and beauty might not be another person's. Make beauty by all means, but make it in harmony with your family's tastes and needs, not just your own. So often, the women who take the most pains to make their houses as beautiful as they can come up with a result that only they and their friends find beautiful. Often enough, I wonder if a man lives there at all, and if the husband brings up the wife's decorating, it's often with eye-rolling or a bitten-off complaint at an expense that they can't see the point of or with an indulgent smile for the oddities of the female sex. And many kids just think that mom's style is dated and weird. Very few women who are motivated by beauty take other people's opinions in the house into account, instead believing that their "beautiful" is everyone's--or it darned well should be! *g* (I have an aunt's house that was decorated to within an inch of its life. It gave me hives because it was Kitchy Kountry, looong after the style was out, and she was incredibly proud of being a good homemaker even though I doubt her absentminded-professor DH ever really registered any of it!)

 

Now, many men DO have opinions! They just tend not to run to flowers. :-) And they tend to not be consulted by women who already have a fixed idea of beauty. My DH is unusual about the level of his indifference to such things, even as a man. He wants a home that is bright and light-filled, is practical and easy to maintain, and feels "nice," but other than that, he mostly just doesn't want any clutter., though he's incapable of decluttering himself A lot of men have much stronger opinions. They want jewel tones. Or they appreciate palettes of neutrals. Or they like lots of woodwork. Or they want a recliner. Usually, though, men's definitions of beauty are less labor-intensive than those which their wives create! :-) For example, very, very few men have any appreciation for throw pillows and lots of elaborate curtains. There are many men who appreciate an attractive home for its own sake and atmosphere or to welcome/impress friends/business associates, but that doesn't mean that what they want must be elaborate, expensive, and/or labor intensive to create and maintain.

 

Creativity, also--men and kids will usually appreciate creative problem solving, but not many will care about the extremely artistic use the wife has found for old twist-ties!

 

I value creativity and beauty as far as they are in harmony with the family's desires and needs instead of just in tune with the wife's. I've heard so many women talk about how they believe that, deep down, their really does husband appreciate the new redecoration of the house because of the harmony it creates even though he seems indifferent, but then I look at the husband, and the house, and I think, "No, he doesn't! Why would he? It was all done for you, not him at all!"

 

Peace also isn't something that comes from being a SAHM or a working mom or whatever. That's an intangible that's valuable, yes, but it doesn't come from a lifestyle but a life *approach.* And it isn't created with an artful arrangement of fresh garden flowers. :-)

 

EDIT: I want to add that when I was cleaning and DH didn't yet "get" why, I didn't insist that he show an appreciation he didn't feel. I insisted that he leave me alone so I could do it, but that's it. :-) I knew that I was cleaning for me and for our future child at that point, not really for him, and didn't demand acknowledgment when I knew perfectly well that he'd contentedly be up to his ankles in trash before he ever noticed that something was a bit rank. I did it "for" him as far as I knew that he was less likely to get sick. Or evicted, *sighs.*

[Jugglin'5]

Okay-

 

But why does explicitly teaching homemaking skills necessarily mean that you don't take others opinions and your own talents/inclinations into account? I don't sew, because I don't like it, but I have at least one child who would probably really enjoy it. I personally like cooking and gardening.

 

Also, my home is decorated very much in accordance with my husband's desires. We have some very dark, jewel-toned:) colors on the walls, with lots of leather and wood. It helps that I have rather masculine tastes myself, but I am always consulting him. I save the girly-girl stuff for the girls' bedrooms and bath.

 

It just seems to me that your critiques don't really address homemaking per se, but rather homemaking pathologies. Everything worth doing, and not doing for that matter, can have problems or be done from wrong motives.

[Parrothead]

Overall, I do know and understand that everything I do I do for God and my family. But, when it comes down to the nitty gritty of scrubbing the floors or toilets, the same gratefulness aren't there!

 

I got here late and haven't read all the posts yet, but I've just got to say that I don't do the things in the house for my family (well, just a little:001_smile:). I do it for me.

 

I look at my house as my work environment. I can't work in chaos. In order for me to do my job as a wife and mother I keep my work environment as organized and clean as I would a cubicle or office.

 

Now to read the rest of the posts.

[Parrothead]

That kind of making of a family isn't a special burden on women alone.

:iagree:

[Parrothead]

It means I need to learn to die to myself, which is never easy.

??? What do you mean by "learn to die to myself?" Typo?

[Kay in Cal]

Well, we are a Christian family that places family togetherness as one of our primary values. I'm a bit uncomfortable jumping in because I always feel a bit uncomfortable around "keepers at home" threads (clearly I believe I am called by God to my vocation), but I work full time, much of it at home, dh is at home full time, plus a pt job that is his "break" for the week, and would guess we are NOT together as a family a maximum of 15 hours a week, on average. Church time is work for me... but still family time, and God time in addition. We live a totally urban life, so we aren't returning to anything, but I think we've done a fair job of melding all our spheres of activity into one happy, busy, life-affirming whole. The fact that we aren't in "typical" roles doesn't mean we aren't honoring the bible...

[Kelli in TN]

I like being a homemaker. I have a pretty nice house thanks to DH, and I am grateful to be able to be homeschooler and full-time homemaker.

 

But it's not rocket science.

 

 

Well, it's not rocket science, but I spend a good bit of time training my kids in these things. I know they can learn it when the time comes, but if I have prepared them in advance, there will be less to learn. When I had my first two babies I did not understand household management at all. It was very stressful to be dealing with a baby, a toddler and an out of control house. I did not really get a grip on things until about the time baby #3 came along. I was determined that my kids would be able to move into their grownup lives with more ease than I did.

 

I don't understand why there would ever be an "either or" when the choice is an academically vigorious educations or homekeeping skills. It seems to me that anyone could have both, and quite easily.

 

We do both. ACT scores and not being a putz in the kitchen are on equal standing at my house. Sarah is bright and I have few fears about her potential for success in college and life. She can also completely and totally run my household in my absence. (An added bonus, when dh and I want to go out of town for a couple of days Sarah has it under control!!)

 

I did not read the whole thread because 1)it's really long and 2) it looked like the conversation went in various meandering directions. But on the subject of sewing and other "fine arts of the home", I do make my kids at least try several of them. And they all learn some fundemental sewing, both hand sewing and machine sewing.

[Robin in Tx]

I only agree to some extent--to the extent that a man is also a father and husband and should be more oriented toward his family than his work, as well. Nobody else can be your children's father or your husband, either. That kind of making of a family isn't a special burden on women alone.

 

Reya, you have made some good points in this thread (the one quoted in particular), but I think maybe there is are varying ideas of what "keeper of the home" means. You are right to say that most men could care less who scrubbed the kitchen floor as long as it got scrubbed - there are many chores that we all do that none of us would mind a paid worker performing for us. We hire out many things that most husbands do that mine doesn't have the time or desire to perform (lawn care, automobile maintenance, minor home improvement/maintenance). And if we had the money, I would have a maid in a heartbeat.

 

But back for a moment to varying ideas of what this is all about... although I am grooming my dd for college, I do know several families who did not and are not (I know several with grown married daughters). I know them and their daughters well enough to make the statements I'm about to make -- they do not reduce the value of their daughters to maids, cooks and nannies. They didn't raise their daughters to not pursue goals or to not be involved in meaningful work, they raised them to pursue different goals and pursue different meaningful work. Their daughters were all very involved in ministries as young ladies (most of them organizing ministies as young as 16). I know that one who is getting her college degree but doing it online so that she can continue to run her ministry which serves young mothers in her community. These young women invest their time and their work in things that are relational and are intended to build the community and the church, not becaue their husband is in a job that needs a high profile high society trophy wife to further his career, but because they feel that this work is the higher calling. Their husbands don't care who scrubbed the toilets, but they care very much who is undertaking these important roles in their churches and their schools and their neighborhoods. Some of these women won't homeschool... they'll be the type who volunteer at the schools because that's more important to them than earning money... or they will teach bible study classes, or volunteer in other ways. I know a group who spends every Thursday at a nursing home (and has done so for YEARS - they've built many relationships), and another who volunteers time with an rehab organization who works with disabled children. That's just the tip of the iceberg, and I think it would be a put down to call this sort of activity middle class Victorian.

 

Reya, I believe you're an author, right? As demanding as that is, I think that this is one of the few professions a woman can pursue that would allow her the flexibility/freedom to be this sort of contributor to your community and church. But believe me, when you're a banker or a lawyer or a doctor, or even a secretary, when you get home at night and you have kids, they get all your time. And most your time on Saturday (what's left after the grocery shopping and other errands that you can't do M-F). There are not enough hours in the day to pursue a career, be a mother to your children, and head up/organize/invest substantially in church/community needs. The mother who does not have a career outside the home can do all these things and be done at a reasonable hour. It contributes to peace in the home, as well as peace and value added in the community. I am not really one of these types of women, to be honest, but I am very thankful for them because they are an important part of our larger community.

 

I'll even go so far as to say that perhaps these families have got it right. Their daughters, if they decide to pursue a career once they turn 18 can leave the home and do so without any trouble at all. At least their parents will have prepared them for a life a ministry and taught them how to manage a home and children, training that will never be a waste. But women (and men, but women to a greater degree) who were never really trained to value the importance of this sort of contribution to the community will probably never grow to value it as an adult. Their social circle will consist of their coworkers and people they go to lunch with. Men, unless they are independently wealthy, rarely are in marriages where they are the ones playing this role. But their parents can teach them to value it none the less and to desire a marriage and lifestyle where their wife doesn't have to work to help pay for all their wants, and they show their wives and their community that they value it by accepting their role as bread winner and by supporting their wife's role.

 

I don't know if this makes any sense... it actually looks like rambling at this point.

 

I don't have time to proof read.... I 'll just hit submit and hope that something I said makes sense to someone :)

 

Robin

[Laura K (NC)]

I almost posted on another thread about girls being raised to be moms and wives instead of doing college prep work and going to college. I was making too many unfair generalities and couldn't figure out how to say what I wanted to say nicely. I'll try it again here because I think this is an important subject.

 

I never took a home ec. class. My mom never made me do chores. I never changed a diaper until after my first child was born -- they had to show me in the hospital. Today I am a good cook. I am a good seamstress and I know how to crochet, and I have made quilts, curtains, afghans, and clothes. I have laid floors, fixed drywall, built a patio, made furniture, gutted and replaced a bathroom, and replaced light fixtures. Not only that, but I also have taught myself how to clean all those things!

 

My mother didn't teach me all the things I know, but she and my dad did teach me how to strive for excellence and how to do my best. So when I know something needs done, no matter what it is, I try to do it, and if I don't know how to, I can look it up, buy a manual, ask a discussion board, subscribe to flylady, talk to neighbors, offer to help someone else who is doing a project that I'm interested in, and I can teach myself how to do things all my life. Some stuff comes easily to me and some stuff is difficult. I have a hard time with gardening. I have a very hard time with keeping up with grammar corrections. :banghead: None of childraising is easy, but books can't teach you how to do that.

 

There are very few household chores that are truly complex. Most of them just take a little time and a little practice and a little perseverance.

 

I, like Reya, don't think that "keeping house" needs to be done conscientiously and methodically as an academic endeavor, as if it will not be learned later unless it is learned young, or if learning housekeeping young will somehow give a girl an edge over her more ignorant peers (like I was). I'll take Reya one bit further and say that I think that girls who *do* go to college have the potential of doing an even better job of housekeeping when they are older. Why? Attitude. A girl who has not gone to college but who is trained to keep house has a limited sphere. A girl who has pushed herself in academics or in some kind of large project (missions work, say, or entrepreneurship) knows how to push herself a little farther than she's accustomed to going, will try new things more readily, and will not be intimidated by problems that invariably need to be solved in the home, whether they are electrical, plumbing, purchasing (which vacuum/mini-van/dishwasher is the best buy?), sewing, landscaping, or child-rearing.

 

The skills we learn can almost always be applied to other things. The girl who groans in algebra but succeeds is the same girl who might groan under a mountain of laundry but sees it through. The girl who learns to write research papers might apply the idea of "checking sources" to when she hires and checks references on a contractor. I would curl up and quit if I thought each subject I ever learned was only applicable to that class and I could never use it for anything else. That's the mentality I hear from some homeschooling women I know, not from here, who don't teach their daughters any math higher than pre-algebra, who don't see any merit to grammar, who don't appreciate history or science and so don't bother their daughters with it. I'm exaggerating, even though I do know families who are unschooling their daughters to the point of incapacity, to make a point that I wasn't quite ready to make on another thread: There is so much for a daughter to learn. It doesn't need to be learned before she turns 18. If she has been given a rigorous home education, she will be able to teach herself anything, no matter if it comes easy to her or not. She will have already pushed herself hard in her studies. She will not be stymied by any financial, childrearing, or homemaking problem she comes up against if she has only learned how to solve a problem. Problem solving comes with languages, logic, rhetoric, higher math, literature, etc, etc, etc.

[anewday]

??? What do you mean by "learn to die to myself?" Typo?

 

I mean that as a believer, I'm called to a life of selflessness and living for Christ.

 

 

 

2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, [1] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, [2] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:1-11)

 

12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, [1] by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. [2] 2 Do not be conformed to this world, [3] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. [4] Romans 12:1-2

 

23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. Luke 9:23-24

 

14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. 2 Cor. 5:14-15

 

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life [7] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? Matt. 16:24-26

[gardenschooler]

 

They didn't raise their daughters to not pursue goals or to not be involved in meaningful work, they raised them to pursue different goals and pursue different meaningful work.

 

These young women invest their time and their work in things that are relational and are intended to build the community and the church, because they feel that this work is the higher calling.

 

 

It contributes to peace in the home, as well as peace and value added in the community. I am not really one of these types of women, to be honest, but I am very thankful for them because they are an important part of our larger community.

 

I'll even go so far as to say that perhaps these families have got it right. Their daughters, if they decide to pursue a career once they turn 18 can leave the home and do so without any trouble at all. At least their parents will have prepared them for a life a ministry and taught them how to manage a home and children, training that will never be a waste. But women (and men, but women to a greater degree) who were never really trained to value the importance of this sort of contribution to the community will probably never grow to value it as an adult. Their social circle will consist of their coworkers and people they go to lunch with. But their parents can teach them to value it none the less and to desire a marriage and lifestyle where their wife doesn't have to work to help pay for all their wants, and they show their wives and their community that they value it by accepting their role as bread winner and by supporting their wife's role.

 

I don't know if this makes any sense... it actually looks like rambling at this point.

 

Robin

 

Makes a lot of sense to me. I don't think you and Reya are talking about the same thing at all, though. It seems to me Reya is pointing out ways to be more efficient (which I'm all for), but your focus is more on building community and service. That is very important, IMHO. Lots of food for thought from everyone in this thread. Thanks for keeping it going.

[Reya]

Reya, I believe you're an author, right? As demanding as that is, I think that this is one of the few professions a woman can pursue that would allow her the flexibility/freedom to be this sort of contributor to your community and church. But believe me, when you're a banker or a lawyer or a doctor, or even a secretary, when you get home at night and you have kids, they get all your time. And most your time on Saturday (what's left after the grocery shopping and other errands that you can't do M-F). There are not enough hours in the day to pursue a career, be a mother to your children, and head up/organize/invest substantially in church/community needs. The mother who does not have a career outside the home can do all these things and be done at a reasonable hour. It contributes to peace in the home, as well as peace and value added in the community. I am not really one of these types of women, to be honest, but I am very thankful for them because they are an important part of our larger community.

 

BWAHAHAHAHA! Okay. Finished laughing now. *g*

 

Yep, I'm an author. Nope, I have no time to volunteer right now. Can't do it. (Maybe if I weren't doing all the home improvements and renovations, but now? Not a chance.) I can just about whip up a meal for someone who needs it, but that's pretty close to my limits. I'll show up as "muscle", too, but I'm not organizing ANYTHING at this point.

 

I'm on these boards when A) I'm doing something like photocopying or listening to DS read, B) I'm too exhausted for anytihng else, or C) I'm dodging real work. :-P Mostly A and B.

 

As I mentioned before, though, volunteering a lot IS a job. It's not an income-generating job, but it's as much a job as any occupation is if you're serious about it. I would raise an eyebrow at the assertion that a volunteering mom is more of a SAHM than a working one, that's for sure! Somehow, money tends to "dirty" things to people, but really, it's the same. You might say that volunteering is more worthy than working for pay. Sure. But it's not NOT working!

 

I volunteered heavily before kids, and I will again after them. Right now, though, it's not possible.

 

Oddly enough, this is an EXACT inversion of Proverbs 31, where the MAN got to sit at the gates with the elders and contribute to the community because the WIFE made so much money and ran their household so efficiently! :-P So much for the man's role being that of "breadwinner"!

 

(BTW, my doctor works part time so she can spend more time with her daughter. Sort of off topic, but still...)

 

I daresay, though, that these sorts of lessons are best taught through experience, not through setting a child deliberately on such a path. Unselfishness is a lifestyle, not a curriculum, and it doesn't preclude an excellent curriculum or a college education--or a job!

[Reya]

Okay-

 

But why does explicitly teaching homemaking skills necessarily mean that you don't take others opinions and your own talents/inclinations into account? I don't sew' date=' because I don't like it, but I have at least one child who would probably really enjoy it. I personally like cooking and gardening.

 

Also, my home is decorated very much in accordance with my husband's desires. We have some very dark, jewel-toned:) colors on the walls, with lots of leather and wood. It helps that I have rather masculine tastes myself, but I am always consulting him. I save the girly-girl stuff for the girls' bedrooms and bath.

 

It just seems to me that your critiques don't really address homemaking per se, but rather homemaking pathologies. Everything worth doing, and not doing for that matter, can have problems or be done from wrong motives.[/quote']

 

I don't think explicitly teaching homemaking is bad at ALL! I plan on doing it--alongside car maintenance and the rest. (DS helped me scrape the floor this afternoon...) This is something extremely easy to teach-as-you-go--and pretty hard for some adults to pick up. It doesn't need a textbook, though!

 

I am against *idolatizing* homemaking and against making it into something much more difficult and life-consuming than it should be. That's all!

 

I do take my own tastes and talents into account, as I think any woman should. I bake bread. I garden. Occasionally, I sew, though I have no time for it now. I crochet. I cross stitch. I cook EVERYTHING from scratch. I do these things for personal enjoyment, though, not because they are part of the great arc of homemaking! (Some cooking I do really to save money and maximize health, though--I only cook once per week for "necessity", but I do mass freezing, so we're always well stocked.) I would never consider a woman who doesn't do any of these things and still has a well-fed family a lesser "homemaker" in any way. And when there's a pinch, it's these things that get set aside, not my time with DH or my kid (soon to be kids!). The people that make up the home and their real needs come before activities of "homemaking."

 

I'll probably teach my kids to cross stitch--not because it makes them better wives (or, ahem, husbands!) but because it is fun. I'll teach them to garden because that, too, is a kind of "creative hobby" in that it is productive (rather than strictly an expense, as many hobbies are) and there's a joy in living things--not just because we'll be doing botany next year! I'm sure I'll teach basic hand-sewing, too, and when DS or DD want a cool costume, I'll throw them at the sewing machine, show them how, and let them rip. :-) I want to teach carving, too! (Or at least get my Dad to teach it. I kept cutting myself, so I gave up.) These are very peripheral things--peripheral to learning basic life skills, like how to sweep without throwing dirt everywhere, AND peripheral to academics. They're a bit of frosting on life. If they hate these sorts of things, then as long as they can fasten a button (I taught DH that this year...), fix a cuff, and prepare basic meals, then who cares about the rest?

[Reya]

Makes a lot of sense to me. I don't think you and Reya are talking about the same thing at all, though. It seems to me Reya is pointing out ways to be more efficient (which I'm all for), but your focus is more on building community and service. That is very important, IMHO. Lots of food for thought from everyone in this thread. Thanks for keeping it going.

 

Pretty much! I want goals and actions to be in harmony with each other instead of misaligned. That goal can be maximum "giving" of a household to a community--or whatever!

 

There's just so often a mismatch between what people say they want and what they do--and then they don't understand why they never get to where they want to go! :001_huh:

[Danestress]

That this thread was originally about whether there is something *so hard* about keeping a home that one has to forego academic instruction in order to take time for formal instruction in it.

 

It was never really about whether homemakers perform a valuable function (you better believe we do) or whether sacrificial service is good. I honestly think that while homemaking requires some love and humility. It also wasn't about whether we should train our daughters to keep homes.

[Robin in Tx]

Unselfishness is a lifestyle, not a curriculum, and it doesn't preclude an excellent curriculum or a college education--or a job

 

I still think we are talking about different things. A person can be unselfish, but that doesn't mean that they are actually putting serious feet on that idea on a regular basis. There is unselfishness which is best described as a character trait, and then there is a committed level of giving and serving which is best described as one's life work. When it is your life's work, you conciously choose to forego other jobs and careers. That is the whole point - it *does* preclude a job.

 

None of the girls I know who are/were raised this way is short shrifting academics. I know some who are even pursusing a classical education. These are intelligent women who *are* well educated - probably more so because they don't spend their time in front of a tv or chatting on message boards :). None of the ones I know are naive, undereducated, weak minded, or unambitiuos. As a matter of fact, they are quite interesting to talk to and are usually wise for their age (probably because in their late teens they were seirous about becoming women instead of extending their adolescence well into their twenties, as so many college students do today).

 

This is no different than electing vocational training for your son instead of college. But in our society, if a woman pursues a vocation of service to her church, family and community, suddenly her work is considered less valuable because either it didn't require a college degree or it doesn't pay a salary. There is something immoral about that. Really, what is behind the thought that says, "I don't have time to serve in my church/community right now because I have other work (i.e. better things) to do?" It is a value system that some people are choosing not to buy into (thankfully). You say in one place that all this qualifies as work/a job, yet here you are saying that it doesn't preclude a job. This is an example of how undervalued this sort of work really is. It's okay if you busy yourself with it whenever your season in life allows, in an quest to not be idle, but it is not okay to pursue it as your vocation. It's valuable work when you are squeezing it in here and there, but it's not valuable work when other life choices take a back seat to it.

 

BTW, I'm really not aware of the curriculum used to train girls in this regard, perhaps there is one... I don't know anyone who uses a curriculum... it is taught through example and experience. But it is possible that some use a resource for certain skills around the house, especially anyone who was raised by a mom who worked outside the home and never taught her children how to ,manage meals, laundry, cleaning. If it really was so simple that an outside resource wasn't necessary, there wouldn't be a proliferation of cookbooks or cleaning/decluttering books by people like Don Aslett. Flylady would have never become popular, etc.

 

ETA: I forgot to add that as far as the author thing goes, my comments about that career's flexibility/freedom was based almost wholly on SWB's example... she has said before that she works harder in her church than in any other work she does. I don't know if that is true now that she has contracted for the new history series, but I did notice that she wakes at around 4:00 every morning to do five hours or so of writing, so that she has the rest of the day for her other obligations... my point was that there are few jobs where you can control your working hours like that.

[Kimber]

I haven't read most of this thread, but I just wanted to say that I love being a keeper at home. But that for me does not involve a keeping an immaculate house--ask my mil, :). But it does involve me bringing the skills that I have to my family.

 

I read everything I can find on nutrition and health. I am focused on my kids physical well-being and their mental well being as well. I try to be there for my dh and meet his needs, whatever they may be. Keeping my home involves me giving to my family of myself.

 

The problem I have with the training them to be keepers at home is that it can be stifling. I would rather my daughter learn to be herself rather than "a woman in general". I'd rather she develop the strengths and talents that God gave her as an individual rather than molding her to fit a role that is predetermined for women as others have interpreted the bible. I do not want to decide for her what being a keeper of her home should be like simply because she's a female.

 

What if she wants to be a scientist? Then she can take that love and joy for science and bring that to her home. What if she wants to start a business? Then she can bring that to her home. What if she wants to be a doctor? What better training to take care of one's on kids.

 

My only advice to my daughter or any young woman I meet is that they pick a career that offers them flexibility so that they have choices and don't have to sacrifice their family nor themselves to do the things they enjoy. Pharmacy, medicine, accounting, computers, teaching, even engineering can be part-timed, job-shared, or flexed if you set out to make sure you have that plan in mind from the start.

 

Being a keeper of one's home in my opinion has nothing to do with laundry, dishes, vacuuming, or any other kind of house work. Those are chores. Children do chores and so do husbands. It's not specific to gender. But being in the moment in your home with your family is being a keeper of the home.

 

For instance, Mother Teresa was a keeper of the home because she loved and cared about people. She took care of them, but her focus wasn't within 4 walls.

 

I don't want to limit the focus of my daughters life to within 4 walls and how well she maintains it. I want so much more for her than that.

[mommaduck]

That this thread was originally about whether there is something *so hard* about keeping a home that one has to forego academic instruction in order to take time for formal instruction in it.

 

It was never really about whether homemakers perform a valuable function (you better believe we do) or whether sacrificial service is good. I honestly think that while homemaking requires some love and humility. It also wasn't about whether we should train our daughters to keep homes.

 

Okay I didn't read this into the OP. ALso, just because one has formal instruction in it doesn't mean that one is giving up academic instruction. And what do you mean by formal instruction? When I think of that, I think of jr high home ec and highschool adult management courses. I'm teaching my children, I'm sure I could count it towards school, but I don't. It's simply part of life around here.