Frustrations with Writing With Ease

[happycc]

We have been using Writing with Ease since about August or so.

My kids are struggling. My second grader is using Writing with Ease 1 and my 4th graders are using Writing With Ease 2.

I have to read the passages over and over and over again before they can answer the questions.

Not only that I have to explain the passages and what is going on for every sentence it seems.

They love the stories but we dread the narration parts. What is supposed to not take very long, takes a very long time to do. I was hoping that after a few months, things will move quicker. Um...not really. I think it has gotten worse or maybe the passages are getting harder. I don;t know.

 

Convince me that this is ok if not good and that we do not need to change up.

We are going to take a break from WWE for a month for NanoWriMo and hopefully my kids will have matured enough to handle WWE better.

This is our first year homeschooling, they have been in PS up until this year. They have been exposed to A LOT of screen time (apparently they were babies stuck in front of TV for hours). I have decreased it substantially but I can't control what goes on in the other house.

[BlsdMama]

I would "check" to see if their hang up is in their heads about the program. The way you'd do this is to read aloud from something OTHER than the book.... Pick something like Aesop's fables. Then see if thwycan just "tell it back" to you. My children struggle with being concise but can narrate.

 

I would tell you that if they struggle with simple narration (not just a little voice in their head telling them they don't like writing) :Dthen I would BEG you not to switch programs. Children who cannot narrate need it even more than children who find it easy. Moreover I cannot think of a program that makes it more painless. I would also tell you that you of not possibly read aloud enough to these children.

 

It is also possible they have developed a habit of inattention knowing you'll repeat and making it easier on themselves.

[Melis]

Hello there :)

 

I can totally relate to what you are saying. I oftentimes have to stop and make sure my boys are listening. If it's something that is not interesting to them, it's easy for me to lose them. I just try and remain patient and if they miss too many questions I end up having to read it over. I find they dislike this as much as I do and they usually do much better the second time around. I, myself, struggle with the narrations so that helps me empathize with them. I found that in level two there were a few stories that I literally had to translate. Line. By line. It wasn't easy! :O My oldest is in 5th now and using WWE3. I think his narrations skills have really exploded! Some days he still draws blanks and it's not a good day, but overall, it's become much easier. Both of my boys still dislike doing narrations, but I honestly don't think that is going to change. It just doesn't interest them at all. I am now at the point where, if we are having "one of those days" or I am frustrated/low on patience or time, I just won't even attempt to do WWE with them. We're just gonna take our time... ;) I hope this helps a little :)

[Annabel Lee]

:iagree: with BlsdMama. My oldest son (now 5th grade) had trouble when he was in WWE2 as well. There were weeks when I wasn't sure if I should pass him on to the next week because it seemed like he didn't really get it. It took us more than 1 180-day school year to get through it (about a whole calendar year), but that's what it took, so it's OK. When I was unsure, I just kept moving ahead. I have the workbooks and the hardback WWE Strong Fundamentals, which shows it grouped into larger topics over a period of weeks. For ex., weeks 12-17 might focus on adjectives, adverbs, and proper use of commas (I'm just making that up as an example). I decided to keep going until the end of that "unit", that group of weeks focusing on a certain skill. But if he didn't get it before the next "unit" (I'm just calling it that, WWE doesn't give a name for it) began, I'd go back and do that unit over.

 

There is an article by Susan called "Tips for Narration" in another section on the WTM home page. A search should bring it up. It's very helpful. Also, since my son was old enough to comprehend this, I finally sat him down and explained what I'm looking for in his narrations. I paraphrased my knowledge of how the WWE program works in a nutshell and told him to pay attention to the questions that come after the story. I told him the first set of questions is to see if he's listening, but it is also the "main story thread". The next set(s) of questions combines some of those main ideas even further - so I told him to really pay attention to those, because his narration should include info. from those. I don't know if that was "cheating", but it helped him understand what on earth we were doing when he couldn't grasp it previously. I used a funnel analogy explaining that if we can only get a tiny bit of the story (2-3 sentences) through the hole, it needs to be the most important bits. The details that we leave out, that don't make it through the hole, cannot be things that change the storyline if we leave them out.

 

HTH!

[tomandlorih]

:bigear: Exactly my problem with my second grader doing WWE1. Thanks for the timely post and the encouragement to stick with it.

[jenL]

WWE is a fantastic program, if you stick with it. I learned this the hard way. After 2 years of it, I was feeling bored with it, so I switched ds to Writing Strands, and he HATED it. His resistance made me hate teaching him writing. So, after 2 months of that, we went back to WWE2 and picked up from week 28 to refresh ourselves. Ds is MUCH happier; he is narrating well once again, and I am humbled. I had to walk away from WWE to see how great is really is. Like others, I'm encouraging you to take a bit of a break, and then return to it because the skills it provides are excellent. Hang in there!

[BlsdMama]

I will further add to this in saying now that I have a tenth and seveth grader I am an even more enthusiastic advocate of working with young children in this way. I would go so far as to say that other than teaching your child to read, narration and dictation are the next most important skills. Keep at it.

[black_midori]

With my 5yo doing WWE1, sometimes I have him draw pictures to show what is going on as I read the passage. This has worked really well in the past - I need to start again! Recently, I've been back to reading the whole passage 1 time, then reading the passage 1 paragraph at a time and giving questions related to that paragraph right away. Then often reading the paragraph...A.G.A.I.N. It gets very old for all of us!! He just has trouble keeping track of the story line details - he understands the main part of what happened, but loses the details unless he adds pictures. When he adds pictures, he can give me astonishing details - ones that I don't remember myself!! (we did one once where he told me the color of something very specific and I didn't think he was right - then I re-read and found out he was! sheesh.)

 

My 7yo uses WWE2 and he usually nails the narrations, although sometimes he needs me to repeat particularly hard ones (or on days where he is particularly distracted!). So, I know there is hope! Laff

[happycc]

with a five year!!!

I am pulling all my hair with my 2nd grader (soon to be 8yrs old in December) with WWE1.

 

My kids are all anxious to hear the "stories" but boy getting to remember the details when answering the questions makes me wanna cry.

 

I think I read one passage 8 times once and this is a with a kid who really tries.

 

I have the same problem with all of them. I would give them a pronto lesson and they wouldnt remember a thing. I make them take notes-with pictures anything. It is helping with the memorizing.

 

No honestly if I read something aloud they don;t remember from Aesop's fables to comic books. They remember it if they read it themselves.

Edited November 1, 2011 by happycc

[matilda]

You could try shortening the amount that you read before you ask questions. For example, the first question might come from the first two paragraphs, so read them and then ask the question and then do the section that corresponds to the next question. If you work up from there, you will have an idea of what their attention spans actually are, and you can work up to the whole selection slowly.

[warneral]

First, I want to thank the people who are contributing to this thread. It gives me hope on those days where it seems we only are able to answer 1/2 the questions!

 

I keep telling myself they will improve with time and that it will bear fruit in the future!

 

I did listen to a SWB Q&A on youtube and she said if the child is a visual learner, then by all means, allow them to read the passage with you. So my dd (naturally) comes to look at the passage. DS, on the other hand is a stronger audio learner so he listens.

 

Here is a thread where I brought up the learning style question recently: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312287&highlight=WWE&page=2

[MusicMama]

I play a game with my dd to help with her memory retention. I give her an object, then a secret "code" she has to remember to keep it safe. I ask her what the code was almost immediately, then after longer and longer intervals. If she can't remember, then I keep the object, and we start again. If she can remember for up to a set interval, she wins and can keep it. The "object" is often a little sparkly something or sticker. I use everything from nonsense phrases to sentences from books. She like the game, and it helps with preparation for narration. Hth!

[happycc]

now what about next year...the fourth graders are going to be 5th graders and the Well Trained Mind moves them onto Logic Stage. What do I do? Just continue on to WWE3 or what? What about History and Science? All that outlining? Should I start that or what until we are done WWE3 and continue on with the narrations?

[Mommy22alyns]

It is work, there's no getting around that. When Becca was in WWE 1 (as a first grader; we're behind half a year because I tried SL LA :glare:), she had a hard time narrating. If they don't get a question, read that specific part again and ask them again. I had to do that a lot! She has really improved so much. Sylvia's in WWE 1 now and she's doing better than Becca did because she's been read complex books from a younger age than big sis.

[silliness7]

You could try shortening the amount that you read before you ask questions. For example, the first question might come from the first two paragraphs, so read them and then ask the question and then do the section that corresponds to the next question. If you work up from there, you will have an idea of what their attention spans actually are, and you can work up to the whole selection slowly.

 

:iagree: Read one paragraph or HALF a paragraph or even a sentence and then you ask them to retell what you just read to them. They may repeat verbatim. They may repeat it in their own words. It doesn't matter. After you have worked through the passage in this manner, ask the questions. Hopefully the answers will come much easier because they have been *forced* to pay very close attention, and were just not allowed to let their minds wander. Continue in that manner for a week or so and then lengthen one sentence to two, or half a paragraph to a whole. Continue asking the questions *after* they have worked through the passage narrating bit by bit. See if they are still able to come up with the correct answers with the longer bits. Eventually get to half the story at a time before a retelling and then the whole story before a retelling. At some point you may be able to leave off the retelling and jump straight to the questions. Your dc just need help to develop the habit of paying attention to what you are reading. I don't think you should blame screen time or lack of read-alouds. It comes easily to some children and not so easily to other children. The good news is you can meet them were they are, and with some patience and perseverance move them to where you want them to be. Hang in there!!

[Melis]

Good Morning :)

 

now what about next year...the fourth graders are going to be 5th graders and the Well Trained Mind moves them onto Logic Stage. What do I do? Just continue on to WWE3 or what? What about History and Science? All that outlining? Should I start that or what until we are done WWE3 and continue on with the narrations?

 

I am certainly no expert, but I would just pick right up where you left off. That's what we've been doing. My kids are not exactly where they should be for a variety of reasons, but they are thriving and I think that's the beauty of homeschool...to be able to tailor the curriculum to them and go at pace that works for your family.

 

Both of my kids started WWE2 in 3rd grade and it's worked perfectly for them. My oldest started there because I had just purchased the curriculum and from looking at the online samples, I felt he'd be fine skipping WWE1. My youngest really struggled with the physical act of handwriting so WWE1 was perfect for him in terms of the amount of writing involved (the shorter sentences). When we began WWE we took it really slow and honestly, I'm glad we did. It took us two years to get through those first books I purchased! :O Not because of the level of difficulty, but because they were still young and we only schooled for a few hours a day...spending our afternoons outside and/or out and about. Now that they are a little older, we're able to get more done in the mornings and we do WWE consistently each day.

 

I oftentimes struggle with the desire for my kids to be in the exact books (levels) for their age/grade, but I'm trying *really hard* to just go with the flow...

[Melis]

I missed your question about the outlining... hmm... DS10 is in 5th grade and we haven't come across any outlining requirements for science or history, but that may be due to differences in curriculum? We use SOTW (World History)and SL (American History and Science).

 

:lurk5:

[....]

now what about next year...the fourth graders are going to be 5th graders and the Well Trained Mind moves them onto Logic Stage. What do I do? Just continue on to WWE3 or what? What about History and Science? All that outlining? Should I start that or what until we are done WWE3 and continue on with the narrations?

 

We follow TWTM for writing and I have a 10 yro who will start 5th grade work this spring.

 

Here's my thoughts (at 6am, so I might not make sense), I think that if your 4th graders are in WWE2, they might not be ready to start logic stage writing for 5th grade. I think SWB has said that it's possible to go from WWE3 to WWS (which is her logic stage writing program). So, they may need one more year of grammar stage writing under their belt before they move on. However, I also think older kids can learn very quickly and if you really pushed writing as a subject for a while...maybe they could catch up and be ready for logic stage writing by 5th grade. I've noticed with one of my kids that something "clicks" and then he just makes huge leaps.

 

Second, I really like the lectures on the PHP website: A Plan for Teaching Writing. The logic stage lecture answered a lot of the questions I had while I'm trying to get my daughter ready to move on.

[....]

I missed your question about the outlining... hmm... DS10 is in 5th grade and we haven't come across any outlining requirements for science or history, but that may be due to differences in curriculum? We use SOTW (World History)and SL (American History and Science).

 

:lurk5:

 

If you use the WTM for writing, there is daily writing across the curriculum. I don't have my notes on me, but off the top of my head...for their history notebook, they make fact lists, outline one page of supplemental reading and write a half-page summary (each week). For science, they write a 2-3 paragraph science report that answers the scientific method questions (state the question, form a hypothesis, etc...). For lit, they write a one-page narrative summary of each book.

 

I probably left something out or something might be inaccurate. I'm trying to plan 5th grade, so I've been dragging TWTM all over the house. :tongue_smilie: It's a lot of figure out.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Just so you'll know my very bright 8 yo 2nd grader can't do a narration to save her life. Not of a TV show, book, movie, etc. I keep plugging on (give her a math book though and wow! Interest or inclination I don't know). Eventually it will click I hope.

[Evergreen Academy]

We had the same experience with WWE with ds8, back when he was in 1st grade. It made me ask myself a question: Was it important that he learn to parrot back a paragraph that he had no connection to, or that he learn to tell back a story while he was making connections to and with ideas? I decided on the latter.

 

My ds has some language processing difficulties, but I believe it's difficult for many children (judging from the comments) to make connections with brief passages, taken out of the context of the larger body they came from. How can we connect with a scene depicting Fern and Wilber when we're not really sure who they are?

 

I also felt I needed to let go of very specific pieces of information I was searching for, and see what the child connected with. If he was unable to connect with (remember) anything, either he wasn't paying attention, or it was the wrong sort of passage. More often than not, I felt it was the wrong passage for him. We kept WWE's fantastic ideas, and switched to Aesop's Fables. I had to scan them for difficult words to define first, and sometimes, had to read them a paragraph at a time, with a brief narration after each paragraph. It was still hard mental work and training in focus and listening, but it worked very well. I didn't ask as many specific questions as WWE poses; I prefer a more CM approach where I ask the child to tell me what he remembers or notices, or tell me about the passage.

 

We worked up to the whole fable, and afterwards, ds could illustrate his favorite part and copy over part of his narration that I'd written out for him, or copy a sentence or two from the fable. Later we took this concept to other books we were reading, some of which were used in WWE, like Charlotte's Web.

 

They are all different, but for what it's worth, this works well with our various ages and stages.

[Melis]

If you use the WTM for writing, there is daily writing across the curriculum.

 

Oh, I see! Thank you :) We use FLL, WWE and SOTW, but I haven't read my TWTM book in forever. Once I picked out all of our curriculum (we're eclectic, but use FLL, WWE and SOTW), it went up on my shelf and I haven't read it since. I think I'm due for a review to see where we're at ;) I've also been meaning to get out my Home Learning Year by Year book by Rupp.

[Melis]

Just so you'll know my very bright 8 yo 2nd grader can't do a narration to save her life. Not of a TV show, book, movie, etc. I keep plugging on (give her a math book though and wow! Interest or inclination I don't know). Eventually it will click I hope.

 

*I* still struggle with narration! LOL

[....]

Oh, I see! Thank you :) We use FLL, WWE and SOTW, but I haven't read my TWTM book in forever. Once I picked out all of our curriculum (we're eclectic, but use FLL, WWE and SOTW), it went up on my shelf and I haven't read it since. I think I'm due for a review to see where we're at ;) I've also been meaning to get out my Home Learning Year by Year book by Rupp.

 

:lol: I just bought the newest edition and it seems so different from the first version. I've got little note thingies everywhere in the kitchen about what writing to do on what day. I have absolutely NO idea what I'm doing. :tongue_smilie:

[LaughingCat]

What about Lindamood Bell's Visualizing and Verbalizing Stories? These books seem to me to be a way for a struggling/beginner to "get" narration. It starts with only 2 easy sentences and works up from there. I don't think it actually includes narrating back either but that would be easy to add in.

 

Note: I don't actually have it, I've only looked at it online.

LL

[caedmyn]

Is it possible to just read them one sentence and then ask one simple question (you make it up) from that sentence? "What was the name of the person in this sentence?" or that sort of thing.

 

You know, there is nothing saying you HAVE to educate the kids classically or that you're doing them a dis-service if you don't (I read your other thread too). Maybe all of you would be happier with something a little gentler and less rigorous like a Charlotte Mason approach. You could always switch back to a classical education later if you really feel drawn to it.

[justLisa]

*I* still struggle with narration! LOL

 

 

This cracks me up because I wrote for my highschool/college newspaper, and I STILL struggle with summarizing LOL. That's all I did for years! I takes me reading/re reading notes a thousand times.

 

DS is 7 and doing WWE2. We just started this 4 weeks ago, and at first it was like pulling teeth, however he has made some progress. I think maybe he is not a huge fan of fairy tale type stories, as he is a very practical non fiction reader. I started using this just once a week for the narration/summary portion, just so he can still have this skill with material that he doesn't find interesting. I have noticed, that if I have him read a page out of some computer programming book or the history of a US president he will literally lecture on the subject. This is what we have been doing, and then I help him summarize in a few sentences. He has an easier time retaining when HE does the reading.

 

I love a combo of WWE 2 or something for narration, AND WWW.

[birchbark]

I like to read this thread occasionally to remind myself of the value of narration, dictation, etc.

 

You said this is their first year hs-ing. Then narration is a totally foreign skill. :) Skills take time and effort to build. Give yourselves a lot of slack, feel free to back way up, and take your time. Model for them frequently. They WILL get it eventually.

[Critterfixer]

My kids are all anxious to hear the "stories" but boy getting to remember the details when answering the questions makes me wanna cry.

 

If they get a lot of screen time elsewhere, it's quite possible that they are literally wolfing down those "stories." The best you can hope to get on a narration would be regurgitation. (I don't like regurgitation in their own words or otherwise. I think it can lull one into a false sense of security about retention.)

I've used WWE, and liked it. Narrations presented a huge challenge with both my boys. One could remember every detail, and loved to throw the whole thing out for me to write. Couldn't summarize to save a tree. The other does have auditory issues, and with his hFA occasionally checks out in the middle of a story, (or so I think) only to be able to remember it weeks and months later.:001_huh:

What I did, besides switching to Aesop (which is harder!) was to get a solid reading comprehension guide. Not for them. For me. Knowing what to ask, how to ask it, how to guide and get some genuine "I think" responses has made us a whole lot happier with narration as a teaching tool. It's easy to get hung up on "the perfect narration" as the goal, when the real goal is to teach organization, analysis, and a genuine individual response to what is read.

[Mrs Twain]

One helpful strategy I learned is to teach your child how to "make a movie in his head." You can do this step by step as you read each sentence at first. Read a sentence and tell him to look up at the wall and imagine the scene. Read the next sentence and help him imagine the next part, etc. After you are finished reading the passage, tell your child to replay his "movie" in his mind. After some practice doing this, read longer passages at a time, and then work up to the whole passage.

 

Some kids don't do this naturally and need to be taught how to see it or record it in this way in their minds. I find this strategy very helpful myself as I am a visual learner.

[justLisa]

One helpful strategy I learned is to teach your child how to "make a movie in his head." You can do this step by step as you read each sentence at first. Read a sentence and tell him to look up at the wall and imagine the scene. Read the next sentence and help him imagine the next part, etc. After you are finished reading the passage, tell your child to replay his "movie" in his mind. After some practice doing this, read longer passages at a time, and then work up to the whole passage.

 

Some kids don't do this naturally and need to be taught how to see it or record it in this way in their minds. I find this strategy very helpful myself as I am a visual learner.

 

Hmmmm, I've never actually said this out loud to DS but this may be very helpful. He is such a practical thinker, and loves non fiction. I think he just finds it like you say, un natural to really visualize a story. I thought he was just strange (in a funny way) to enjoy reading out of my sister's university astronomy class and recalling more of it that she the first time, or things like computer programming or biographies of intersting people. When I read him some of the passages from fairy tale type stories it's like he is totally un interested. He says he tries to remember but they are so boring. This is where we struggle with WWE. He plays sword fights like he's straight out of a fairy tale with his friends so it's not like he doens't have an imagination. And he watches VERY little on screen.

[Halcyon]

I missed your question about the outlining... hmm... DS10 is in 5th grade and we haven't come across any outlining requirements for science or history, but that may be due to differences in curriculum? We use SOTW (World History)and SL (American History and Science).

 

:lurk5:

 

 

In 5th grade, children are "supposed" to move into the logic stage, which means outlining. SWB talks about this a lot in WTM and her new writing curriculum works under this assumption.

[Hedgehogs4]

My boy (10) is in 5th grade and we just started WWE 3. I would not worry about the number attached to the end of the WWE. :001_smile: Building the skills is what is important. We will begin WWS next year, assuming he does very well with this now.

 

I would agree with so many of the PP that say "don't quit--push through." I really am convinced that this is the best way to teach a child to write you can find. I don't have a lot to add except to tell you that my son used to freak out about anything having to do with pen / paper, and now he expresses genuine enjoyment in writing literally anything. I don't know if that will be your kid or if it is a natural bent that just developed with him, but I will say that not every day with WWE has been a picnic. The last few, however, have been fantastic. He has said, "I like this" and "That was fun." :001_huh: go figure.

 

Hang in there...It pays off in the long run.

[TKDmom]

We have been using Writing with Ease since about August or so.

My kids are struggling. My second grader is using Writing with Ease 1 and my 4th graders are using Writing With Ease 2.

I have to read the passages over and over and over again before they can answer the questions.

Not only that I have to explain the passages and what is going on for every sentence it seems.

They love the stories but we dread the narration parts. What is supposed to not take very long, takes a very long time to do. I was hoping that after a few months, things will move quicker. Um...not really. I think it has gotten worse or maybe the passages are getting harder. I don;t know.

 

 

Narration is a surprisingly difficult skill to learn.

 

Maybe you could take a short break from the workbooks. Read out load to your dc--something that you all find interesting. Having the same story to narrate from day after day might make it easier for them to hold it in their heads. At the end your reading time each day ask each child separately, "What do you remember from what we read today?" Write it down on a piece of paper, let them color a picture about it, and file it away. Once they get comfortable with that, go back to the WWE workbooks and see if it's any easier.

 

Personally, I felt like the comprehension questions in WWE made it harder for my kids to focus on the narration when they were first learning it. I think the overall method is great, but the scripting always tripped me up. Once I was able to stop following the script and loosen up my expectation that they say the "right" things in their narration, everything became easier. Now I've been able to go back to using comprehension questions to jog their memories, and it's much easier and less stressful (because I'm more comfortable with the whole process). It really helps to remember that it takes years to develop these skills.

Edited November 2, 2011 by bonniebeth4