Guiding potential vs. pushing too hard

[zenjenn]

So, I have a 6 yr old who is really really bright. Gifted maybe? I don't know.. I've never been a fan of labels. She also can have a very stubborn/belligerent personality. If something becomes remotely challenging, she can scream "THIS MAKES NO SENSE! IT'S TOO HARD! I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS!" yet if I can get her to shut up and listen, I only need her to listen for like 30 seconds to comprehend what I'm trying to teach, after which she happily takes it and runs with it.

 

She takes a lot of joy in things coming easily to her, and things coming easily to her are far above any expectation I'd ever have for a 6 year old, so there is this temptation to just leave her alone and ignore it. She's fine. But I also don't want her thinking she can just skate through life because she's smart. Intelligence is nothing without hard work. I believe that 100%. I have a "gifted" brother who has done a fine job of making absolutely nothing of his life.

 

But then sometimes when I do push her, I feel ridiculous - like "Really? Do I REALLY need to be pushing <insert advanced concept> on a 6 year old? Am I going all Tiger Mom?" Yet... the things that are age-appropriate are trivial to her.

 

And in a way, this is somewhat new. She's always seemed bright, but she wasn't doing anything super advanced as a toddler or preschooler. In fact, she (by choice) favored non-verbal communication for a LONG time. She didn't engage much with any of the academic stuff at her preschool (insofar as it was there) because she didn't really want to engage in dialogue with adults. She played in isolation or with a single friend. She started becoming more verbal in her Pre-K year, and then rapidly picking up reading towards the end of her pre-K year (smart, but age appropriate, right?). It wasn't until I started formally homeschooling her last year that academic proficiency took off like a rocket.

 

So here she is, an age 6 first grader. A young one a that (turns 7 in May).

 

Some of the things I am seeing:

 

- Can read pretty much at complete fluency. Complicated content exceeds her attention span, but not her ability to read. Yet given her druthers, she'd read comic books or Geronimo Stilton. Occasionally she will pick out something more advanced - recently she read Dr. Dolittle cover to cover in a few hours. She LOVED it, but usually, she'd resist something like that, and I feel unreasonable trying to tell my *6 year old* she needs to read something more advanced than Geronimo Stilton, kwim? Yet what to do? My older child I'd allow to read books like that at age 7 and 8 and I'd feel it was a valuable investment of her time - yet this one, I don't, but then I feel like I'd be cheating her emotionally out of enjoying these books by insisting on more advanced content.

 

- Mathematically, wow. I have NOT pushed this at all, yet math comprehension just materializes in her brain effortlessly. She can add and subtract large numbers in her head, sometimes even when you'd have to carry or regroup (and when I ask her how she does it, she can verbalize to me her thought process about dealing with the tens separately from the ones, etc.). She has NOT been formally taught much about mental math, and she was doing this to some extent before she even learned formally about place value. Today we did a Google search together, and she saw the search results and said ("Wow, one-hundred and sixty-one million, thee-hundred and seventy two thousand, six-hundred and twenty-two results!") :blink: She instantly translated a number in the hundreds of millions correctly into words. She has NOT been taught formally in her math curriculum about place value that high at all. I have her doing Teaching Textbooks 3 because she likes the computer and it gives me time to work with her sister, but really it is totally trivial to her. She's learned how to multiply and divide and work with fractions some, and work with high place values, etc, just by asking questions and reading books and skipping ahead lessons in TT3.

 

The only reason we even have TT3 is because her dyslexic older sister benefited from it and I figured "what the heck.. she likes the computer and working independently." I have given her permission to skip lectures and lessons and move forward as quickly as she wants, which she does sometimes. I give her Math Mammoth to do sometimes as well.

 

Today I asked, "Honey, is Teaching Textbooks too easy for you?"

 

She sort of looked at me and said.. "Well.... maybe.. well, yes.... but PLEASE don't make me stop it? It's fun!"

 

The only thing that is not crazy accelerated is writing, but even still, with WWE1 I have her always do both sentences instead of just one (one just seems like it would be trivial). And, she's be perfectly capable of doing the copywork as dictation, and capable of writing her own summaries, but I know asking her to do so would be met with resistance. Her ability to spell and compose sentences is advanced, and I suspect it is primarily the mechanics of penmanship that is the only real limiting factor.

 

I'm kind of confused about what to do with her. How to help her reach her potential, how to identify what her potential even *is*. Is pushing her towards such standards unreasonable for her age, but is NOT pushing her going to teach her to just skate by and not exert age-appropriate levels of effort?

 

Is evaluation useful? I'd never thought I'd consider an evaluation or an IQ test in this situation.. I always thought these labels were just useless but she keeps accelerating faster as each month passes by and I'm constantly thinking like I'm either not pushing her enough or I'm asking too much of her. :confused:

Edited October 12, 2011 by zenjenn

[Iucounu]

Hi, zenjenn! She sounds gifted, and with somewhat of a math bent. I think IQ testing might help you understand a little more about your daughter, but unless it would be help ful in lining up services or pinpointing a disability, it might be a glorified waste of money. Achievement testing might or might not help, for similar reasons; some achievement tests will tell you how rare your child's skill levels are, but not the right way to teach, the right levels for particular subjects, etc.

 

I guess I'd probably start by doing some sort of assessment to see where she's at in math, so she can begin learning math in a rigorous way. Singapore Math and I believe other curriculums provide assessment tests to help you figure out a good starting point.

[boscopup]

Welcome! Sounds like she belongs in this forum! :D

 

It is a fine line between pushing and meeting them where they're at. I am finding it getting easier this year (2nd grade) than last year. I too have a good reader who is good at math. His writing is on par with age level for physical ability, but what he thinks of to say is more advanced.

 

Right now, I try to challenge him a bit, but not so much that he breaks down crying everyday. He does break down crying on occasion because he's in a mood, and, like your daughter, he'll understand the concept right away as soon as he stops crying and listens to what I'm saying. Then it's like "Oh, that's easy!" :tongue_smilie:He's learning that not everything in life will be easy, and I think that's a valuable lesson, but at the same time, I don't want every day to be like that. So it's very occasional. I think he's at the right level right now, and we still find things we need to speed through (his fractions understanding is well above what he'll do in this grade level of his curriculum, for example - he LOVES fractions).

 

It gets better once they learn how to say "I don't understand." instead of "Waaaaaaah!!!!!!" :lol: Ok, he doesn't say "I don't understand." He'll just look at me and say, "HUH?" That's better than tears though. :glare:

[jillian]

I've got an almost 4 year old who loves to do "school" (phonics, letter formation, RSA) but the second you try to help her out or explain something I get the "I can't do it because it's so hard" and bursts into tears. After she gets that out of her system we can move on lol and she gets what we are doing easy peasy. We take lots of breaks to help keep the lessons short. I've told dd to ask for help and she usually does but sometimes she just flips. At that point we stop and really take a big break and get a snack, play around a bit, get some wiggles out.

 

I really struggle with where does pushing cross over encouragement too.

 

Overall I agree with previous posters about the evaluation.

[boscopup]

I've got an almost 4 year old who loves to do "school" (phonics, letter formation, RSA) but the second you try to help her out or explain something I get the "I can't do it because it's so hard" and bursts into tears. After she gets that out of her system we can move on lol and she gets what we are doing easy peasy. We take lots of breaks to help keep the lessons short. I've told dd to ask for help and she usually does but sometimes she just flips. At that point we stop and really take a big break and get a snack, play around a bit, get some wiggles out.

 

My oldest resisted at age 4 because he wasn't ready for sit-down school. We basically unschooled (ie, I left him alone to learn things himself), and he continued to fly ahead. He didn't me. :) The next year, he was ready for school. I started accelerating his curriculum in 1st grade, and it's worked out well.

[jillian]

My oldest resisted at age 4 because he wasn't ready for sit-down school. We basically unschooled (ie, I left him alone to learn things himself), and he continued to fly ahead. He didn't me. :) The next year, he was ready for school. I started accelerating his curriculum in 1st grade, and it's worked out well.

lol I have tried the unschool approach but since she went to preschool last year she begs to sit down and do her school. We only do about 45 minutes of school MAX. It's more like 845-915 and that's including our fun drawing/game time.

[Mergath]

Based on my own experiences, if she were my kid, I would push her. Not hard, but enough to keep her challenged.

 

My IQ puts me into the HG category (and yes, I am rolling my eyes as I type that- I really don't think much of IQ tests or the categories). When I was your dd's age, my parents didn't push me. My school didn't push me. I did the basic level of work in about a tenth of the time as everyone else, and then I sat there, bored out of my mind. (I would try to read after I finished, but my teachers would yell at me that it wasn't time to read and I just had to sit quietly. Don't you love public schools?)

 

I grew used to doing that, and to not thinking much about what I was learning. And really, I wasn't learning much of anything, because I started school knowing pretty much everything I'd need up until around fourth grade. Then, when the work did become more challenging (I'm definitely not a math person, lol) I hadn't learned HOW to learn, so I had a lot of trouble. And having trouble basically crushed how I'd come to view myself. That affected me until college, where I finally relearned how to enjoy learning.

 

Don't know if that's helpful or not for you, but I thought I'd throw it out there. If it were my dd, I'd push her enough so that she has to continue learning all the time, and not just sailing by on what she knows already.

[Rivka]

I also have a six-year-old who is advanced, but draws back from things that she's afraid will be hard.

 

My philosophy is heavily influenced by Carol Dweck's research on the harm done to kids by a commodity-based view of intelligence, i.e., the belief that intelligence is something you have and that smart is something you are. Dweck has found, again and again, that kids who buy into this model actually avoid challenges, because they don’t want to take the risk of discovering that they’re not so smart after all. She advocates praising children for their effort, rather than their ability, and teaching them that the brain is a muscle that grows stronger with exercise.

 

The catch is that you can only praise a child for effort if you actually require them to make one. When work is too easy, there’s no way to attribute success to effort. That forces children into the conclusion that their successes are based on natural ability, with all the harmful results Dweck has documented. They also lack opportunities to develop the work habits and emotional coping skills needed to deal with difficult tasks.

 

I work very hard to keep my daughter at a level where she actually has to put in sustained effort, while at the same time not requiring more work than I think is developmentally appropriate for a six-year-old. She does assigned work for about 90 minutes to 2 hours a day, and during that time I try to make the activities challenging.

 

We also talk a lot about the learning process: for example, that it's okay to not know the answer or how to tackle a problem, but that it's not okay to not even try. We talk about her progress, how hard things become easier with practice and time. We talk about the beneficial effects of stretching your brain. We talk about her fears of being wrong and how to manage them.

[LMD]

I'm wondering if you can do both? My children aren't as accellerated as you describe (I agree your DD sounds more than just bright!), but I allow a mix of 'easy + fun' with 'challenging + effort' with my 6y/o. I do let her read Geronimo Stilton (she just breezed through a library one in 2hrs and loved it), but I also assign her a challenging book that we'll read together - I read a couple of pages, she finishes the chapter...

 

I'd look into other ways to stretch her as well, learning an instrument or language?

[LizzyBee]

It's funny that you mention Tiger Mom. I listened to her book while driving, and my two older kids heard parts of it. Both of them said she didn't sound so bad. From their reaction, I got the feeling that they wish I'd pushed them a little harder on certain things.

[Anne]

My philosophy is heavily influenced by Carol Dweck's research on the harm done to kids by a commodity-based view of intelligence, i.e., the belief that intelligence is something you have and that smart is something you are. Dweck has found, again and again, that kids who buy into this model actually avoid challenges, because they don’t want to take the risk of discovering that they’re not so smart after all. She advocates praising children for their effort, rather than their ability, and teaching them that the brain is a muscle that grows stronger with exercise.

 

The catch is that you can only praise a child for effort if you actually require them to make one. When work is too easy, there’s no way to attribute success to effort. That forces children into the conclusion that their successes are based on natural ability, with all the harmful results Dweck has documented. They also lack opportunities to develop the work habits and emotional coping skills needed to deal with difficult tasks.

 

.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

 

Anne

[jillian]

I also have a six-year-old who is advanced, but draws back from things that she's afraid will be hard.

 

My philosophy is heavily influenced by Carol Dweck's research on the harm done to kids by a commodity-based view of intelligence, i.e., the belief that intelligence is something you have and that smart is something you are. Dweck has found, again and again, that kids who buy into this model actually avoid challenges, because they don’t want to take the risk of discovering that they’re not so smart after all. She advocates praising children for their effort, rather than their ability, and teaching them that the brain is a muscle that grows stronger with exercise.

 

The catch is that you can only praise a child for effort if you actually require them to make one. When work is too easy, there’s no way to attribute success to effort. That forces children into the conclusion that their successes are based on natural ability, with all the harmful results Dweck has documented. They also lack opportunities to develop the work habits and emotional coping skills needed to deal with difficult tasks.

 

I work very hard to keep my daughter at a level where she actually has to put in sustained effort, while at the same time not requiring more work than I think is developmentally appropriate for a six-year-old. She does assigned work for about 90 minutes to 2 hours a day, and during that time I try to make the activities challenging.

 

We also talk a lot about the learning process: for example, that it's okay to not know the answer or how to tackle a problem, but that it's not okay to not even try. We talk about her progress, how hard things become easier with practice and time. We talk about the beneficial effects of stretching your brain. We talk about her fears of being wrong and how to manage them.

The bolded is how we approach things all across the board. For example my dd refuses to try riding her bike because it's hard (though she's ridden one before). We encourage her to try her hardest even if she doesn't quite get it, we encourage her to practice and give it her best shot.

[Embassy]

. Is pushing her towards such standards unreasonable for her age, but is NOT pushing her going to teach her to just skate by and not exert age-appropriate levels of effort?

 

I think being challenged is important especially for a child that understands concepts easily. I've tried to take the approach of upping the challenge, but in an age appropriate way. I've also tried to be broad based in what we are learning. For instance, when my son was learning the Arabic alphabet in Kindergarten we would have races where he had to try and find the next letter.

[Crimson Wife]

It's difficult to walk the line between "challenging" and "overly frustrating". What makes someone a "Tiger Mom" IMHO is not backing off when something is clearly too much. If a child who is normally reasonably compliant is having an absolute meltdown over something, what is your response? Do you shelve it for a while in favor of something else? Or do you force your child to continue, often with a torrent of verbal abuse as "motivation"?

[zenjenn]

Thank you for all your thoughtful responses. I particularly think this is key:

 

My philosophy is heavily influenced by Carol Dweck's research on the harm done to kids by a commodity-based view of intelligence, i.e., the belief that intelligence is something you have and that smart is something you are. Dweck has found, again and again, that kids who buy into this model actually avoid challenges, because they don’t want to take the risk of discovering that they’re not so smart after all. She advocates praising children for their effort, rather than their ability, and teaching them that the brain is a muscle that grows stronger with exercise.

 

The catch is that you can only praise a child for effort if you actually require them to make one. When work is too easy, there’s no way to attribute success to effort. That forces children into the conclusion that their successes are based on natural ability, with all the harmful results Dweck has documented. They also lack opportunities to develop the work habits and emotional coping skills needed to deal with difficult tasks.

 

Wow. I really need to re-evaluate my responses to both my children. It is natural to gush with exuberant praise when my 6 yr old suddenly performs a trick I would never expect of a child of that age, but if it was effortless to her, what am I truly praising?

[Halcyon]

This is all very interesting to me, so I am :bigear:. My 6 yo is advanced as well, and also gets frustrated by things that don't come easily to him. He spells at a 6th grade level, and reads at a high level also. He is very good at math, but if he doesn't "see" what to do right away, he says "I can't do this." even though it would take literally 10 seconds for me to explain if he'd only listen. He's very independent and likes to do things on his own--sounds like your child! He always has a project going on, of his own initiative. And like your child, he recently surprised my by reading a multimillion number out loud.

 

I try and figure out where the "line" is between pushing and letting him be. He is working in SM 2A and is comfortable, and for the time being I will let that be. He needs to work on his math facts anyway. With language arts, I suppose you could say that I push that boundary a bit more. He really loves spelling (because he's good at it) but also really enjoys grammar and writing, so we just move ahead with that--he doesn't seem to hit any walls with it. He also "knows" he's ahead in those areas, and he likes to demonstrate his prowess, to himself and to his family--it makes him feel good. I am trying to show him that just because math doesn't come as easily to him as language arts, and just because Latin actually requires WORK (the horror!) doesn't mean he should brush it off, or think that he "can't do it". It's really, really important for me to teach him that some things are just plain hard and just because they're hard doesn't mean they aren't worth the effort.

 

Anyway, this post was longer than I intended. Just wanted you to know that I empathize.

[Rivka]

Wow. I really need to re-evaluate my responses to both my children. It is natural to gush with exuberant praise when my 6 yr old suddenly performs a trick I would never expect of a child of that age, but if it was effortless to her, what am I truly praising?

 

I still use a lot of praise, I just try not to make it be things like "you're so smart!" or "wow, I can't believe you just knew that!" or that kind of thing. So when my kid surprises me by making something hard look easy, I might say: "Cool! How'd you figure that out!?" or "Wow, you have really been thinking about this stuff!" or "These puzzles are totally fun for you, aren't they?" or "That's really cool, how you went about that!" or even just "Hey, you didn't used to be able to do that!"

 

Because chances are that the trick wasn't really "effortless" - it's just that the effort that went into learning it was probably internal, and it happened a while back, and you're only seeing the results of it now.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

My philosophy is heavily influenced by Carol Dweck's research on the harm done to kids by a commodity-based view of intelligence, i.e., the belief that intelligence is something you have and that smart is something you are. Dweck has found, again and again, that kids who buy into this model actually avoid challenges, because they don’t want to take the risk of discovering that they’re not so smart after all. She advocates praising children for their effort, rather than their ability, and teaching them that the brain is a muscle that grows stronger with exercise.

 

:iagree:

 

I started discussing this with my daughter at some point during the last few years. Just this week she was complaining about something being hard. All I needed to do was draw a bell curve on the white board with two dots at different points on the curve and an arrow showing the one further behind catching up to the one in front--the arrow being effort. That was enough to remind her of previous discussions and for her to go back to her work with a more positive attitude.

 

We also try to watch our usage of the word luck and similar words. Remember the phrase, "The harder I work the luckier I get?" We try to point out the background of the accomplishment.

 

When she was younger, I would tell her to get out her "struggle muscle" to help her do something tough. I would have to make a dramatic, silly deal of it when she was little (and sometimes I still do :tongue_smilie:), but it works for her and helps remind her things aren't always easy.

 

During the early years, it was especially tough to figure out the right amount of challenge. It was also expensive because sometimes I would have to go though a few programs or levels to find the right one. Sometimes AFTER she had written in a book for the first few lessons I would realize it was too easy. Thankfully I sometimes found people still interested in buying things even if the first few lessons were used. ;)

 

I have made my share of mistakes both ways--pushing too much and not enough. I'm finally understanding how to stay in the middle--or at least I'm getting better at it. I think it's something that varies with each child (and even at different times with the same child) and can maybe only be found by trial and error. I would rather error on the side of pushing and having to pull back than of never pushing at all.

 

One thing I've found with my daughter as she's gotten older is that her behavior, anxiety level, and moods seem more even when she has lots of academic work to do. It's as though her brain literally needs fed.

 

I try to give lots of praise and show enthusiasm when something takes lots of time and effort. (Not if it's taking long because she is wasting time, but because it is new and particularly challenging.) Sometimes she will spend hours over a period of days working on something difficult and when she completes it I will say, "Wasn't that fun??? What a challenge! You really worked hard. Fantastic!" She will sometimes try to complain that she isn't smart because it took her so long or she made mistakes, but I remind her that's how some of the greatest discoveries are made and to join the club. :)

[Beth in SW WA]

 

Today I asked, "Honey, is Teaching Textbooks too easy for you?"

 

She sort of looked at me and said.. "Well.... maybe.. well, yes.... but PLEASE don't make me stop it? It's fun!"

 

:bigear:

 

My dds think TT is fun and ask for more. Dd7 is doing TT5 and dd8 is doing TT 7/Prealg. It can't hurt to supplement with TT. She will probably enjoy SM as well. We just started Hands On Equations. Either way, we'll continue with TT because they enjoy it and cruise through the lessons, skipping problems often.

[wapiti]

My philosophy is heavily influenced by Carol Dweck's research on the harm done to kids by a commodity-based view of intelligence, i.e., the belief that intelligence is something you have and that smart is something you are. Dweck has found, again and again, that kids who buy into this model actually avoid challenges, because they don’t want to take the risk of discovering that they’re not so smart after all. She advocates praising children for their effort, rather than their ability, and teaching them that the brain is a muscle that grows stronger with exercise.

 

Thanks for this. Lately I'm turning my attention to one of my ds8s who has some significant perfectionism issues and his underachieving seems to be getting worse (and his teacher doesn't seem to be making much of a dent). He's underchallenged but afraid to try anything that is challenging, in fear of not being able to get it right instantly. I haven't decided whether to homeschool him next year - there are advantages and disadvantages - personal attention would be a plus, and the presence of his brother would be a minus. It doesn't help that he thinks he's not as good at math as his twin brother, but it's becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, even though the last time we did testing, a couple years ago, he outscored his brother (obviously we don't talk about those kinds of test scores at home). His math talent is currently underdeveloped when I consider his old test scores and what he can do right now (I'm awaiting some recent MAP scores that may help me figure this out more objectively).

 

I must figure out a way to stretch that brain. This discussion might help me find some language to use with him.

[poetic license]

The catch is that you can only praise a child for effort if you actually require them to make one. When work is too easy, there’s no way to attribute success to effort. That forces children into the conclusion that their successes are based on natural ability, with all the harmful results Dweck has documented. They also lack opportunities to develop the work habits and emotional coping skills needed to deal with difficult tasks.

 

I work very hard to keep my daughter at a level where she actually has to put in sustained effort, while at the same time not requiring more work than I think is developmentally appropriate for a six-year-old. She does assigned work for about 90 minutes to 2 hours a day, and during that time I try to make the activities challenging.

 

Another Dweck fan here! Her book Mindset was really amazing.

 

I have questions from those who agree with/practice the bolded ideas above--how have you created the balance between making the work challenging enough yet developmentally appropriate?

[Donna]

Another Dweck fan here! Her book Mindset was really amazing.

 

I have questions from those who agree with/practice the bolded ideas above--how have you created the balance between making the work challenging enough yet developmentally appropriate?

 

:iagree: I love the book Mindset. I think often about what I say when I praise dd. I try to always praise her hard work rather than some inborn ability.

 

I think there is a line you need to find for your child where they are challenged but not frustrated. I think there is a difference. Something challenging is within their grasp and, if they are willing to work for it, they can learn or accomplish the task at hand. You may need to break the task into smaller, more easily accomplished tasks. Something that causes frustration is not within their grasp...steps in learning have been skipped or they just do not have the pre-requisites required.

 

Developmentally appropriate is different for each child. Age isn't really the determining factor...having the skills necessary is what matters. A certain child may be able to take in information at a very high level because they have the necessary skills but maybe the same child does not have the skills to write an essay on the very thing they learned.

 

Some of the ways I make things challenging but "fun" are to make things hands on, being creative with how we accomplish the "output" portion, and giving my child input on some of the things she is interested in learning.